Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Guardian)   It's typical. You come up with one modest proposal to improve education and then everybody starts panicking about how you're going to turn schools into sausage factories   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 39
    More: Interesting, Nick Clegg, elementary schools, Lib Dems, National Union of Teachers, middle schools, exams  
•       •       •

6518 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2013 at 9:07 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



39 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-07-17 09:10:15 AM  
Yes because having the kids study just for a test the whole year long is a great idea look at American schools.

/It will go that way just watch.

reason #548745 to homeschool
 
2013-07-17 09:11:49 AM  
Somebody's been listening to too much Floyd.
 
2013-07-17 09:11:54 AM  
They're weeding out all the girls?
 
2013-07-17 09:13:03 AM  
Can a sausage retain the flavor of a properly cooked child?
 
2013-07-17 09:13:06 AM  
 
2013-07-17 09:14:07 AM  
I thought that was very Swift, subby.
 
2013-07-17 09:17:01 AM  
Yes Nick, you lying little prick, this will definitely work well and not lead to teaching to the test.  Michael Gove is an elitist shiatbag who seems hell-bent on eviscerating the education system, much like the majority of the Tories are hell-bent on gutting other public institutions and we, the people, are the ones who will suffer for it.  In expensive enclaves in Bucks and Herts, where it's generally quiet because the sprogs have been packed off to Eton, Harrow, Marlborough and Bryanston, they'll be acclaiming this move because it will not affect them one little bit.  It's enough to make one slightly homicidal.
 
2013-07-17 09:17:47 AM  
encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-07-17 09:20:09 AM  
That's a Swift literary reference, <b>subby</b>. Quite nice.
 
2013-07-17 09:20:25 AM  
Mmmm... sausage
 
2013-07-17 09:20:38 AM  
But if you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!  How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!
 
2013-07-17 09:20:44 AM  
It's nice even when I'm not allowed to do my own HTML anymore. Truly.

/coffee time.
 
2013-07-17 09:23:10 AM  

The Envoy: Yes Nick, you lying little prick, this will definitely work well and not lead to teaching to the test.  Michael Gove is an elitist shiatbag who seems hell-bent on eviscerating the education system, much like the majority of the Tories are hell-bent on gutting other public institutions and we, the people, are the ones who will suffer for it.  In expensive enclaves in Bucks and Herts, where it's generally quiet because the sprogs have been packed off to Eton, Harrow, Marlborough and Bryanston, they'll be acclaiming this move because it will not affect them one little bit.  It's enough to make one slightly homicidal.


The difference between Americans and the British - y'all are smart enough/educated enough to realize that this is what's happening.  Your politicos can't just give it a shiny, helpful-sounding name and claim it as the next big thing in education.  Also, you know what Eton, etc. are...I'm not even sure that most Americans outside of the Northeast would know of Phillips or Choate.  You get that there's a top-tier system and know its componants, rather than thinking that you've hit the high water mark when you manage to score a 3 BR in the burbs and can afford better than Keystone Light.
 
2013-07-17 09:24:38 AM  
For all Dubya's flaws, his quote "Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning?" has a point. A lot of made of the US education system's failure to keep up with the rest of the world, but more telling is the apples-to-apples comparison with our own past standards. Simply put, we haven't been able to keep up with ourselves: every few years they have to fiddle with the numbers to mask the downward slide, but it only works for a year or two before things begin to trend downwards again.

How do we fix this? I'm not sure anyone knows. Studies do indeed show that teachers have a huge effect on student performance, but we've been attacking the problem from the teacher side for decades now, to seemingly no avail: it was a reasonable go, but I think it's time to admit that we've been barking up the wrong tree. It is time for a strategic retreat: go back to what we know worked better -we actually have the data, for once- while we work out the next path to try.

But even under such a situation, standardized testing must have a place. It is not the be-all and end-all of education, by any stretch of the imagination: one of NCLB's biggest mistakes was treating standardized testing as a panacea. But there is a different reason that we need it, and it goes back to Dubya's original question: the question was, indeed, rarely asked. We didn't have an objective, rigorous, and fair system to see how we were doing, and that is how we got caught with our pants down originally. But we also need that system to know when we find things that work, which is all it should have been used for in the first place. When we finally find our way out of this mess, standardized tests will provide the first indicators that we've done so. But we need to use them with the understanding that they can only measure: they cannot teach.

Might something like this work for other countries as well? I think so, as long as they avoid the mistakes NCLB made. The test is only a measure, not a substitute for good teaching, and not a club with which to bludgeon students or teachers.
 
2013-07-17 09:27:32 AM  

Anthracite: reason #548745 to homeschool


The first half-million or so reasons have to do with fear of minorities and religious indoctrination, right?
 
2013-07-17 09:36:54 AM  

The Envoy: Yes Nick, you lying little prick, this will definitely work well and not lead to teaching to the test.  Michael Gove is an elitist shiatbag who seems hell-bent on eviscerating the education system, much like the majority of the Tories are hell-bent on gutting other public institutions and we, the people, are the ones who will suffer for it.  In expensive enclaves in Bucks and Herts, where it's generally quiet because the sprogs have been packed off to Eton, Harrow, Marlborough and Bryanston, they'll be acclaiming this move because it will not affect them one little bit.  It's enough to make one slightly homicidal.


Being homi- or heterocidal isn't a choice, dipsh*t.
What?
Oh, um. . . Never mind. Sorry.
 
2013-07-17 09:37:53 AM  
WHAT THE fark AM I READING?!

billwanddrbob.com
 
2013-07-17 09:39:23 AM  
Ah, I get it.

Standardized testing produces more profits for firms that teach to the test. If SOMEONE WOULD DO SOME farkING JOURNALISM you'd find that there's a marketing feedback loop between the prep firms and the educators that think frequent testing improves education.

Some children should be left behind. If they and their parents don't want to improve basic skills those little snots shouldn't hold the rest back. On the converse you need to push advanced students forward instead of boring them to point they become problems.
 
2013-07-17 09:40:10 AM  
They're farking 5 to 11 year olds.

Stop giving them standardized tests.
 
2013-07-17 09:41:18 AM  
I think I'll start as you so often suggest by eating your shorts...
 
2013-07-17 09:48:50 AM  

Millennium: For all Dubya's flaws, his quote "Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning?" has a point. A lot of made of the US education system's failure to keep up with the rest of the world, but more telling is the apples-to-apples comparison with our own past standards. Simply put, we haven't been able to keep up with ourselves: every few years they have to fiddle with the numbers to mask the downward slide, but it only works for a year or two before things begin to trend downwards again.


media.tumblr.com

Juking the stats. Making robberies into larcenies. Making rapes disappear. You juke the stats, and majors become colonels. I've been here before.
 
2013-07-17 09:51:21 AM  

tricycleracer: Anthracite: reason #548745 to homeschool

The first half-million or so reasons have to do with fear of minorities and religious indoctrination, right?


Or maybe, just maybe, it is that government schools are not getting the job done. Not to mention the government approved, zero tolerance, suspend your kid for a gun shaped pastry pc driven agenda that has so little to do with actual education.

..and it isn't like we don't spend enough money on them:


www.truthfulpolitics.com

Also that "fear of minorities" is not without justification:

Honor student beaten to death

www.foxnews.com
 
2013-07-17 09:53:38 AM  

wildcardjack: Some children should be left behind.


What do you intend to do with them?  Not trying to troll, its an honest question.  If you simply hold them back, then they become a problem for the next years class.  Creating an alternate classroom would cost money that isn't there.  Expulsion?  That could create a whole new set of issues.
 
2013-07-17 09:53:55 AM  
We're turning out exams like ICBMs
 
2013-07-17 09:55:10 AM  
www.clanram.com

What a sausage factory might look like
 
2013-07-17 09:55:25 AM  

The Envoy: Yes Nick, you lying little prick, this will definitely work well and not lead to teaching to the test.  Michael Gove is an elitist shiatbag who seems hell-bent on eviscerating the education system, much like the majority of the Tories are hell-bent on gutting other public institutions and we, the people, are the ones who will suffer for it.  In expensive enclaves in Bucks and Herts, where it's generally quiet because the sprogs have been packed off to Eton, Harrow, Marlborough and Bryanston, they'll be acclaiming this move because it will not affect them one little bit.  It's enough to make one slightly homicidal.


USE REAL WORDS! please keep in mind that in 'Merikuh', we only use single syllables.
 
2013-07-17 09:58:59 AM  

Millennium: For all Dubya's flaws, his quote "Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning?" has a point. A lot of made of the US education system's failure to keep up with the rest of the world, but more telling is the apples-to-apples comparison with our own past standards. Simply put, we haven't been able to keep up with ourselves: every few years they have to fiddle with the numbers to mask the downward slide, but it only works for a year or two before things begin to trend downwards again.

How do we fix this? I'm not sure anyone knows. Studies do indeed show that teachers have a huge effect on student performance, but we've been attacking the problem from the teacher side for decades now, to seemingly no avail: it was a reasonable go, but I think it's time to admit that we've been barking up the wrong tree. It is time for a strategic retreat: go back to what we know worked better -we actually have the data, for once- while we work out the next path to try.

But even under such a situation, standardized testing must have a place. It is not the be-all and end-all of education, by any stretch of the imagination: one of NCLB's biggest mistakes was treating standardized testing as a panacea. But there is a different reason that we need it, and it goes back to Dubya's original question: the question was, indeed, rarely asked. We didn't have an objective, rigorous, and fair system to see how we were doing, and that is how we got caught with our pants down originally. But we also need that system to know when we find things that work, which is all it should have been used for in the first place. When we finally find our way out of this mess, standardized tests will provide the first indicators that we've done so. But we need to use them with the understanding that they can only measure: they cannot teach.

Might something like this work for other countries as well? I think so, as long as they avoid the mistakes NCLB made. The test is only a measure, not a substitute for ...


My biggest complaint about NCLB is the importance of standardized testing.  I have friends with school aged children who all tell me how the weeks leading up to a standardized test and the week of, the school's like a prison.  No recess, no PE, no after school activities, lunch is cut down to 15 minutes and if a student says a word, even a syllable, the students must throw away their lunch and go back to class (more than once a friend has told me how their kid came out of the lunch line and was told by the teacher than so and so spoke so he has to take the food he just paid for and toss it.  Once got a detention for eating a hand full of fries before tossing his food.  The parents asked why the teacher couldn't have told their kid before he paid so he wouldn't have to pay for food he wasn't going to be allowed to eat?).  If it were up to me, I would keep the standardized testing, but it wouldn't be a baseline for the teachers, it would be required test for students to pass before moving on to the next grade.

The way I would do it, starting in the first grade (since Kindergarten is a blow off year anyways), students take a test to see if they can read, write and do math at their grade level.  Fail and the students automatically repeat that grade.  Now, if it's a fail within 10%, summer school and a retest is allowed.  If it's such a thing that the vast majority of the students are passing, then the teacher is doing their job.  If it's just a thing that the vast majority of the students are failing, then it's the teacher who needs to be replaced.  Teaching to the test wouldn't matter because if the test for grades 1 through 3 are just reading, writing and math, then the students are just becoming better at those subjects.  Now, I would also make sure that schools didn't get rid of recess, PE or limit lunches to 15 minutes of absolute silence.  Yeah, it is school, but kids need to be kids and allowed to run around and burn off energy (I still think the reason why schools have such a high number of kids with ADHD is because of the elimination of recess and PE during certain times of year and not letting them get out and burn off energy).   In theory, if you tailor each test to hit the curriculum requirements for each grade, with goals saying that by X point in the first semester they should know at least this much, then teaching to the test becomes teaching to the curriculum which is what we want anyways.

Another change that I would put in is in jr. high shift from memorization tests (like spelling tests, for example) and move more towards open note tests.  Teach kids not to just memorize everything for a test and then forget it, but instead, how to keep notes and find information.  As adults, we are required to remember very little, but must know how to look up what we need to find.  The exception being state licensing tests (getting my insurance license, 2 weeks of cramming and studying, none of what was on that test needed for the job, and from what I can tell, the same is true on the real estate exam).  Then high school becomes either college prep or vocation training.  The first year there is very little difference between the two options, but as high school continues, the two groups begin to interact less and less.  One bonus to this is you could get a higher retention rate in high school and fewer drop outs as the students on the vocation plan get both their diploma as well as make some money instead of spending all day in a classroom.
 
2013-07-17 10:06:51 AM  

megarian: They're farking 5 to 11 year olds.


Pedobear approves
 
2013-07-17 10:10:07 AM  

Kimpak: wildcardjack: Some children should be left behind.

What do you intend to do with them?  Not trying to troll, its an honest question.  If you simply hold them back, then they become a problem for the next years class.  Creating an alternate classroom would cost money that isn't there.  Expulsion?  That could create a whole new set of issues.


When I was in school I remember being in the second grade and there being the kid who was held back.  We made fun of him the first week for being held back and being dumb.  He passed that year as an honor roll student and did the same the following year.  Almost like he was so humiliated at being held back once that he refused to be held back again.

I knew a kid in the 8th grade, his name was Stewart.  I was 14, he was 16.  He and his 14 year old sister were classmates of mine in the 8th grade, and again in the following year in the 9th grade.  The year after, his sister and I moved on to the 10th grade and Stewart was an 18 year old 9th grader who's little sister was in the 10th grade.  He dropped out by Christmas.

Sometimes holding a poor performing student back a year is the best thing for them, other times a kid is just a moron and should be treated as such.  Is it really fair to waste more time and resources on a student who is a poor performer instead of giving it to the students who deserve it?  Help out those who need it, but at the same time understand that not everyone will make it their first time.
 
2013-07-17 10:24:10 AM  
But I thought you wanted an abattoir
 
2013-07-17 10:38:27 AM  

Great Janitor: Then high school becomes either college prep or vocation training.  The first year there is very little difference between the two options, but as high school continues, the two groups begin to interact less and less.


This might be opening a can of worms, but the above kills off band/vocal/drama etc programs.  I may be biased because I was a band geek in High School but I think those programs are important.  When I was in Highschool (late 90's) we had a large band and won all of our competitions.  Now I look at it, and after the implementation of more college classes in high school, etc.. the band is very small and not very good, despite having the same teacher.  My Mom, who still works at the school has the same concerns.  And the colleges...kids from my old HS can now enter college as a sophomore.  However; they do not have the maturity of a sophomore because they're so young going into it.  That drives the college professors crazy.  Fast forward to the work place.  At the ISP that I work at we hired a batch of college graduates, 19 and 20 y/o network engineers.  They were the worst we've ever had because they act like kids getting their first McDonalds job.
 
2013-07-17 10:53:19 AM  
The term sausage factory is used for education and it's NOT about single gender classes?
 
2013-07-17 11:04:47 AM  

wildcardjack: Ah, I get it.

Standardized testing produces more profits for firms that teach to the test. If SOMEONE WOULD DO SOME farkING JOURNALISM you'd find that there's a marketing feedback loop between the prep firms and the educators that think frequent testing improves education.

Some children should be left behind. If they and their parents don't want to improve basic skills those little snots shouldn't hold the rest back. On the converse you need to push advanced students forward instead of boring them to point they become problems.


Fortunately for my son his new Jr high has 5 different AP courses for him to choose from so he's not bored.

/He's in all 5
//NERDS RULE!
 
2013-07-17 11:47:37 AM  

Savage Belief: On the converse you need to push advanced students forward instead of boring them to point they become problems.


See my post above.  This is also not a good plan, if you push them too far forward.  A kid may be intelligent enough, but not socially mature enough to be in advanced grade levels.
 
2013-07-17 11:48:57 AM  
I am just going to point out the unpopular fact that before standardized tests, NCLB or Obama's Race To The Top our public schools were not doing that good of a job to begin with. At least with the tests we have some minimal assurance that they have learned something. This as opposed to having to take the word of "professional" educators that Dick and Jane did master the subjects and should graduate despite being illiterate.

What is wrong with the standardized tests is that they are too easy. Most states test high school seniors at the 10th grade level (some as low as 8th grade) in order for them to graduate.
 
2013-07-17 12:13:33 PM  
 wodumedia.com


Does that not fit in with your plans? Think of the tourist trade.
 
2013-07-17 01:02:22 PM  
sausage factory? So there going to segregate the sexes then.
 
2013-07-17 04:56:46 PM  
fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net
 
2013-07-18 02:44:01 PM  
Kudos to subby for the Swiftie and tehbeermang for Mr. Prezbo.  I have nothing further to add at this time.
 
Displayed 39 of 39 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
Advertisement
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report