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(NPR)   Hello, and welcome to Olive Garden. My name is Snowflake, and I'll be your genderqueer postgrad waitron this evening. I'll tell you our specials in a moment, but first, let me tell you that my preferred gender pronoun for tonight is   (npr.org) divider line 120
    More: Stupid, Olive Garden, Oberlin College, homeless youth, students' association, snowflakes, graduate schools, genders  
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21121 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2013 at 6:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2013-07-17 01:53:58 AM
14 votes:
OK, maybe it's because I am hetero and in  my mid-sixties, but were I in such a situation and someone I had never met chose to introduce themself that way, I'd get up and walk out.

Look, I do not care how you conduct yourself gender or sexual wise in private, but do not feel the need to slap me in the face with it when we are not interacting intimately and/or in public and especially if we have never met and are unlikely to in the future.

IOW, STFU and act like an adult.
2013-07-17 01:31:41 AM
14 votes:
They're calling for more fluid categories beyond just male and female, as NPR's Margot Adler explains.

I'm totally fine with people who were born with a different sexual identity than what matches their naughty bits. It happens sometimes, and these days, there is no reason not to live a happy and fulfilled life wearing the gender in which you feel comfortable, and having sexual relations with whichever consenting adults wish to do so. Having said that, if your gender identity is changing,on a regular basis, perhaps you need to seek professional help. This is not normal or healthy, and other people catering to this whim is not helpful to your mental health.
2013-07-17 01:17:37 AM
13 votes:
Why does this have to be so confusing.  I'm just going to keep calling everyone dude.
2013-07-17 07:25:44 AM
7 votes:
If someone does not want to be identified by "he" or "she" because that is based on whatever reproductive organs they possess, maybe they would prefer to be identified by a gender-neutral organ. I suggest the terminal end of the digestive tract.
2013-07-17 06:59:07 AM
6 votes:
While I wasn't raised in a barn, so I can in public basically call anyone whatever they ask to be called by with a straight face, I have to admit that every time someone makes a big deal out of being identified by their obvious biological gender (or getting annoyed when you mess it up, in the case of androgynous people) my actual unspoken reaction is basically "Oh my god who the hell cares".

If shiat like this actually catches on (probably won't) I'll learn it because etiquette is a life skill, but don't expect me to use it outside of formal venues.  PC crap is and always has been an artificial waste of time that conceals an underlying problem instead of or even at the expense of actually fixing it.
2013-07-17 08:36:06 AM
5 votes:
The biggest problem with PCness, especially when it comes to cutting-edge PCness like this gender stuff, is that if you get it wrong it's not merely a correction, but a rip-your-face-off crime against Gaia and God (blessed be zer name). You get a new asshole torn because, of COURSE, this stuff is all self-evident and what kind of monster are you for getting it wrong? There are Christian evangelicals who cannot hope to ever reach the sanctimonious and judgmental levels achieved by some in the PC-looney crowd.
2013-07-17 07:42:44 AM
5 votes:

Bontesla: You don't care because you don't struggle with it. You take it for granted.


No, I don't care because  I don't care.  I grew up with several siblings, some dogs, and a name that's got an ambiguous pronunciation, gender and ethnicity (no, my handle isn't my actual name, I'm not that dumb).  I've been called everything from my little sister's name to the dog's name, had my gender reversed on official paperwork repeatedly, and had people pronounce my surname in a manner consistent with a region that my actual ancestors would automatically have murdered and vice-versa.

I deal with it an accept any designation that correctly singles me out from the people I'm standing next to, because I'm not a self-important prat that thinks that the basic functionality of communication comes second to my own delusion that other people should find my personal shiat important.

That's the thing about your personal issues, they're personal as much because they aren't relevant to other people most of the time as because they're disproportionately important to you.  Dealing with that and not taking offense is one of the fundamental characteristics of an adult as opposed to a child.

//I sincerely doubt that your friend is getting reassignment surgery simply because she's sick of being called "mister", I'd guess it has something to do with feeling like she's actually in the wrong body and wanting to fix that... which, again, personal issue, so up to her to fix as she pleases.  Also not something making a new pronoun for her was going to fix.
//At least by default I'd give her more credit than that, just assuming she's a typical random person.
2013-07-17 07:36:04 AM
5 votes:
You know, I simply don't care. If you look like a "he", I'm going to call you "he". If you look like a "she", I'm going to call you "she". If I can't tell, I'll pick one. And I really don't care if your current neurosis makes you want a different one. If you want to be called one or the other, present yourself so that is visually obvious. It isn't everyone else's responsibility to figure out your issues.
2013-07-17 06:32:48 AM
5 votes:
And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.
2013-07-17 02:33:19 AM
5 votes:

DrPainMD: FTA: "...a new generation of young people is..."

And people still insist that "Idiocracy" wasn't a documentary.


I'm tempted to go with "prophecy"
2013-07-17 02:31:09 AM
5 votes:
FTA: "...a new generation of young people is..."

And people still insist that "Idiocracy" wasn't a documentary.
2013-07-17 07:46:28 AM
4 votes:
Take out all of the pictures of those who came before you.  Your ancestors, family, your linear heritage.

Look into their eyes.

You are the apex of their genetics, hopes and dreams and the spark of who they are and who they were that carries them into the future.  You are the only reason they ever lived.

Stop embarrassing the piss out of them with overwrought malarkey.  You're welcome.
2013-07-17 07:17:54 AM
4 votes:
i.qkme.me

And that's all you need to know until she has to take off the Cinderella hair shirt outfit and pay bills.

On the upside, she will happily be offended for you and express great disdain upon your behalf if you're sporting an acceptable social aberration.

Downside, you will eventually offend her, too.
2013-07-17 06:59:34 AM
4 votes:
I have an idea: how about you live in your own little world where you call yourself whatever you want and leave everyone else the hell alone?
2013-07-17 01:53:06 AM
4 votes:
Didn't we have this thread last week?  If you're gender confused pick the masculine or feminine, whichever you prefer, and try to stick with it. The overwhelming majority of people aren't going to be willing to learn new gender-neutral pronouns, so unless you fancy being called an 'it' just figure out which one you're closest to and run with that.
2013-07-17 08:35:15 AM
3 votes:
gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net

Seriously.  Just tell us whatever the hell you want to be called and move on already.  The only reason this is an issue is because you're MAKING it an issue.  99% of people will politely acquiesce to your wishes out of courtesy if you just ask/correct them politely.

This smacks of AW syndrome.
2013-07-17 07:54:42 AM
3 votes:

Bontesla: You don't care because you don't struggle with it. You take it for granted.


I have many transgender friends. Not a single one of them has attempted to invent an alternate set of pronouns for themselves. They started out as one set of existing pronouns and moved to another existing set of pronouns.

This personal pronoun shiat is the epitome of bored, spoiled, suburban white kid problems.

If I'm ever presented with the statement "my preferred pronouns are X/Y/Z" my response will be "how about I just call you narcissist?"
2013-07-17 07:43:58 AM
3 votes:
if you're totally for gender equality you wouldn't care what i call you
2013-07-17 07:06:44 AM
3 votes:
"Young people"

This is because they are young and have too much time on their hands.  I used to think a lot of stupid shiat like this when I was younger too.  When they grow up and get a job (if they can get a job) and move on to the next phase of their life - they will have a different view.
2013-07-17 07:06:23 AM
3 votes:

The Muthaship: Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.

Pragmatism is oppression.


Logic and reason are tools of Patriarchal Oppression!

//I wonder if this is why feminists and transexuals are at such loggerheads with each other. One group believes gender to be a purely social construct and the other group believes it to be hardwired in the brain. After reading the sad tale of David Reimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer ) it's hard to defend the idea that gender is malleable and purely based on one's early socialization.
2013-07-17 06:12:09 AM
3 votes:

ox45tallboy: staplermofo: Ungendered pronouns would be great.  Un-gendering bathrooms would be nice too.  If women peep on men or men hog the couch, it's a small price to pay.  I would hog the shiat out of that couch.

Why don't dudes get a couch? What the hell are women doing in the can that necessitates a couch? I want a couch to chill on in the can. I would totally call the restaurant's number on my cell and ask for my waiter and then tell him bring me another beer to the couch in the men's room. Bonus points if it's a waitress. More bonus points if she does it. Negative points if she changes gender first.


Wait..wait...you WANT to sit in the shiatter and hang out with other dudes while they piss? And you'd want food and beverages in there? What the fark is wrong with you?
2013-07-17 01:16:50 AM
3 votes:
Do we have a Headrant Of The Year category?
2013-07-17 01:58:57 PM
2 votes:

Mock26: Scrotastic Method: /we're born. That's it. Nobody's meant to be anything else. Make the best of what you have, be happy. Trying to change it is, at best, wearing a costume and, at worst, living a lie to yourself.

Wise words.  Or rather, they would be wise words if everything was simplyl black and white and there was no ambiguity with a person's gender and/or sex.


Born with a penis? You're male. Born with a vagina? Female. That's pretty black and white. Are you homosexual? Separate issue. Are you one of the one in every few billion humans with a legitimate gender mutation? Sure, there are considerations there. But if you just think you're "supposed" to have been something different, well then, what's the foundational argument -- your soul is in the wrong body? You didn't get what you want? The first of those is nonsense and the second is a too-bad-for-you problem.

It's like this no-gluten crap. Do some people have celiac disease? Absolutely. Very, very few people, but some. Do you ever see complaints about gluten allergies in developing, third-world, or even lower-class situations? Of course not. Were our grandparents worried about it? Has it come up in past generations as a basic concern of humanity? No. It's a burden of free time, a problem of convenience, or a sign of mental illness to start pondering your "true gender identity" or some such nonsense.
2013-07-17 01:00:07 PM
2 votes:

Super_pope: So we're at this point where turning your face into a cat face and walking around insisting that you are a cat on the inside = ridiculous and crazy, but having your gonads removed and your genitalia chopped up and reshaped for essentially the same reason, just substituting "woman" or "man" for "Tiger" = not at all that.


I could call both "crazy" by definition. I don't look down on "crazies" with disdain and say "fark them" though. I also see a very real difference between the catman argument and the transgender: genetics and the physical brain.  The catman isn't born, as far as we know, with part of a cat's brain. Why it is so difficult to believe, in a world where entire extra genes wind up in people in a species that should only have 26 pairs, that some people get born with an error combination of male and female, I have no idea.

Oh wait, I do: its just bigots holding on to the one of the last bits of bigotry that they don't get ostracized for. And, like every other type of bigotry issue, we have a long thread full of people citing "well, my grandma told me this about those X, so I still think that way" and "well, traditionally its X, so its gonna stay that way" and "insert false claim with shiatty science here is what I believe, so any new studies are just dumb. stupid ivory tower elite" and the most common of course 'that troubled person's life might get easier if I could be more empathetic than an insect, but he's the real asshole for asking that much out of me'

I mean seriously, much of this thread breaks down to the following:
Unlucky misfit group, "we'd feel a lot better about our trouble if x"
Bigots, "no you wouldn't, and even if you would, which you wouldn't, too bad"

Forget any science involved here, what we really have is people with troubling issues and people who are too big of assholes to just count their lucky stars they don't have those problems and cut the folks some slack.
2013-07-17 12:47:52 PM
2 votes:

DGS: That's funny, you ended with exactly what I was thinking as I read this tripe.


Seems pretty logical to me honestly.  We look at people who want radical transformative surgery to be more like parrots because that's what they feel like they were supposed to be as either attention whoring douches or totally crazy, and if they DID have a beak grafted onto their face somehow, you wouldn't be likely to go ahead and start calling them parrots, or trans-avains.  You'd probably call them weird and stop hanging out with them.  Think about that guy who had a boat-load of plastic surgery to implant a bunch of whiskers and plastic inserts and such into his face so he could look like a cat:

http://www.mid-day.com/news/2008/sep/080908-tiger-man-surgery.htm

Like yeah it was his option to go out and get all that shiat done electively, and he can insist that people pretend he's actually become a cat or he won't be around you, but I mean... he's not a cat.  He's a crazy person who had himself really really farked up so he could look more like a cat, and I think we basically all recognize that its silly and there's probably something REALLY wrong with him.

So we're at this point where turning your face into a cat face and walking around insisting that you are a cat on the inside = ridiculous and crazy, but having your gonads removed and your genitalia chopped up and reshaped for essentially the same reason, just substituting "woman" or "man" for "Tiger" = not at all that.
2013-07-17 12:43:49 PM
2 votes:
We could start using the shortened version of "he, she, or it"h/or/sh/it.
2013-07-17 11:57:15 AM
2 votes:

Theaetetus: Monkeyhouse Zendo: I have watched people dither over issues of social discomfort while they ignore others who live in hunger and want.

Like, say, people who post in a Fark thread rather than working at their local shelter?


At the office at the moment earning the money I donate to the local shelter for battered women and use to purchase canned food for the quarterly charity drives.

Look, I get that you want to make me the villain for considering the issue of gendered pronouns a triviality. It clearly marks me as a monster with no concern for my fellow man that I consider personal gender pronouns to be narcissistic. I'll stick to hunger and poverty and leave the big issues of pronoun use to the real social justice warriors. How's that?
2013-07-17 09:53:10 AM
2 votes:
call yourself whatever you want.  others may or may not agree to call you that.

in reality, you are what your genes say you are.
2013-07-17 09:34:21 AM
2 votes:
I'm fed up with this transgendered BS. you are what you were born as. Surgery is not the answer--professional mental health. If you were born with boy parts, you are male. If you have girl parts, female. There is nothign wrong with you. You are great as you are, and do not need to multilate your body (or make everyone else join in your delusion).   There's a very few genetic abnormalities that result in a miniscule percentage being born with some combination of male/female sexual characteristics and those are the few that may indeed need surgery, if they wish, but that is no reason to suddenly pretend gender is a choice. Deal with it. What farking idiocy....
2013-07-17 09:00:08 AM
2 votes:
staplermofo: "Ungendered pronouns would be great."

Like they/them/theirs ?
Or do we need new ones?

I generally go out of my way to not be a dick, and to accommodate other people.  But there is a line at which, no, I am not willing to re-wire myself to use newly-invented words to help people who are different feel not-different.  Particularly not to the point that the repetition of the preferences of the majority will come across like mocking.

I mean, do we invent a word for "not-disabled", that the bulk of us can use to describe ourselves as such, so that disabled people don't feel categorized by having to specify possible additional preferences/needs?  "Hi, I'm Bob and I'm cis-abled; I don't need a ramp or handicapped stall or items to be placed at wheelchair-accessible heights."

To me, the "cis-gender" "here's my pronouns preference" shiat sounds just as incredibly cruel.
2013-07-17 08:17:41 AM
2 votes:
I just figured out what to call these people.

He/him = penis
She/her = vagina

But everyone has titties, so that's what we call them

"Excuse me, titty told me that the bill was going to be under fifty bucks, but when titty brought me the bill it was nearly one hundred. I want you to discount the three lobsters because titty told me that they were half price and now you're charging me full price for them.

See? Titty, it just works.
2013-07-17 07:59:16 AM
2 votes:
I am open minded, friend of hetero,homo, confused, intersexed, and whatever gender assignment you are calling yourself.

As long as I do not have to hear about it all the damn time I could care less. If you keep whining about it I will then either tell you to shut up or offer an opinion you might not like.

I do not have to care about Jews for Jesus or that even though you look like steve buscemi but want to dress like Carmen Miranda. My only care is that I am polite and that I can get to the end of the day with the least amount of white noise.

We all eat shiat and die.
2013-07-17 07:44:06 AM
2 votes:
I was SO hoping this was a "real" consumerist story.

99.9% I'm not looking to have sex with you, so I don't care what your sexual preference is.  If I am interested, I'll spend some time getting to know you.

The transgendered people I've met would make the craziest readhead seem sane.
2013-07-17 07:34:15 AM
2 votes:
It is you're own fault for dining at Olive Garden.
2013-07-17 07:22:58 AM
2 votes:
I always figured trans would be the next "in" thing, but we shot WAY past transgender into this weird world of amorphous constantly shifting nontraditional binary gender declarations.

I guess I'm a closed minded tranny...deep down, you're either male, or female.  may not match with your body, but your core identity is one or the other.

The sad thing, I actually see all this BS reverting trans rights.  We're just barely getting to the point where governments don't require surgery to validate gender.  I see that going down the drain when some of these whackadoos demand recognition of their asexual third-gender spiritual designation on ID.
2013-07-17 07:11:44 AM
2 votes:
What ever happened to "Pervert"?
2013-07-17 07:04:02 AM
2 votes:

Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.


Yep, it is the lgbt civil rights movement that destroys our ability to do math and science jobs for less money than a company can hire someone in china to do.

Truly you understand world economics and international business models.
2013-07-17 02:59:57 AM
2 votes:
24.media.tumblr.com
2013-07-17 01:38:48 AM
2 votes:

staplermofo: Ungendered pronouns would be great.  Un-gendering bathrooms would be nice too.  If women peep on men or men hog the couch, it's a small price to pay.  I would hog the shiat out of that couch.


Why don't dudes get a couch? What the hell are women doing in the can that necessitates a couch? I want a couch to chill on in the can. I would totally call the restaurant's number on my cell and ask for my waiter and then tell him bring me another beer to the couch in the men's room. Bonus points if it's a waitress. More bonus points if she does it. Negative points if she changes gender first.
2013-07-18 11:37:01 AM
1 votes:

Mock26: I have no problem with reading.  It is just that weener/vagina/jollie/abnormalities theory is, well, for lack of a better term, that of a farking retard.


So someone stressing people out about pronouns because they want to expeiment with gender roles and pretend that's important is ok, and deserving of our sensitivity and compassion.

But someone born with a serious developmental disability is just a joke, because screw those jerks.

Fark yourself. You're a piece of shiat.
2013-07-17 10:41:01 PM
1 votes:

alice_600: Scrotastic Method: vygramul: Scrotastic Method: I was born with the wrong athletic identity...I was meant to be able to slam-dunk a basketball, but instead I'm a white dude that's barely 6 feet. I'm going to live my life as a 6' 10" black dude though, and I want every that meets me to congratulate me on my many NBA All-Star Game appearances.

/we're born. That's it. Nobody's meant to be anything else. Make the best of what you have, be happy. Trying to change it is, at best, wearing a costume and, at worst, living a lie to yourself.

If you hand a human brain to a scientist, they can tell you whether the person was a male or a female without needing a genetics test.

If you hand them the brain of a transgendered person, their assessment matches the new gender, not the birth gender.

Does that have an impact on your opinion?

I'm going to take this as nonsense without a link to a valid, substantive medical study.

Smackledorfer: time wasted on the LGBT rights movement.

I don't know who's on which side of that argument, so this isn't necessarily pointed at you, but let it be said: as mental as I think it is for someone to want to flip their penis inside out or take hormones to minimize their breasts, gay rights is the defining issue of our time and it's absolutely necessary and serious. You were born how you were born. We should all embrace that, and embrace it in others. But boys thinking they're really girls is just...make-believe.

Agreed Its just guys falling for the romanticized aspect of being female. If they ever had to have a period or give birth they would run screaming the other direction.


No. Wrong. That's the problem with making sweeping generalizations. They don't apply to everyone and everything.
2013-07-17 10:31:15 PM
1 votes:

Scrotastic Method: Mock26: http://anthro.palomar.edu/abnormal/abnormal_5.htm

Seriously, read my crap before you try and argue. Because I also said this:

Born with a penis? You're male. Born with a vagina? Female. That's pretty black and white. Are you homosexual? Separate issue. Are you one of the one in every few billion humans with a legitimate gender mutation? Sure, there are considerations there. But...


I have read what you wrote.  But you first say that it is a black and white issue and then you go on about exceptions.  So yeah, it is not black and white.
2013-07-17 09:29:05 PM
1 votes:
ok, i have to chime in.

i'm one of 'those' people. i'm gender fluid. i float around the spectrum. i enjoy it. i'm not out to correct people, just to make them think for a minute. what they think is of no concern to me, unless they try to actually bash me. i'm very clear that i've chosen to be a social deviant, and i'm happy with that. i decided long ago that its far easier for me to deal with the crap i occasionally get from some people than it is for me to be repressed and unhappy.

i understand the point of the exercise. it's intended to break the normalisation of the binary gender construction. unfortunately, it has been attempted over and over, and has yet to succeed. see here

i'm not a victim, i'm not angry or complaining, and the only reason i care about pronouns is that i enjoy seeing which ones people choose to use when they meet me. it tells me a little bit about them. if pressed for a pronoun of choice, i'll go with 'it'. i don't find it depersonalising, i find it hilarious because it triggers people.

the gender binary is pretty much a recent construct. even in western history, there have been discussions of third genders and more as recently as 100 years ago. look the word epicene up in the oxford english dictionary, and read its history. cultures all over the world have several genders, currently and throughout history.

in some ways, this is like the sticker i had on my wheelchair that said 'cripple', and some guy walked up to me and began to lecture me on how "that was a very oppressive word to use for the physically disadvantaged" and that i was being very insensitive. i just listened for a minute, and then threatened to roll over his feet.
2013-07-17 05:55:04 PM
1 votes:

Scrotastic Method: Mock26: Scrotastic Method: things

Let me guess, you think homosexuals choose to be that way, right?

Well there was this...

Scrotastic Method:gay rights is the defining issue of our time and it's absolutely necessary and serious. You were born how you were born. We should all embrace that, and embrace it in others.

So, no.

But since I don't believe in predestination, or a soul, or the idea that there's some innate "us" that should be a certain way, I don't see how it's legitimate to say you were supposed to be a different sex. If you want to play around with gender roles, you know, whatever, but when you get to the point of reassignment surgeries and the invention of new pronouns and so on, I feel like -- in my completely unqualified opinion -- we're dealing with something a lot closer to mental illness than sexuality. I know a lot of LGBs that want nothing to do with the Ts.


http://anthro.palomar.edu/abnormal/abnormal_5.htm
2013-07-17 05:03:05 PM
1 votes:

ox45tallboy: PsiChick:

I do not have bipolar disorder myself. I have however, lived with two different people with this disorder.

It is called 'disorder' for a reason - it is different from the way the body and brain normally function. If you truly do suffer from depressive episodes as one does with this disorder, I do not believe for one moment that you would wish these on your mortal enemy. During an episode, a person's brain is simply not functioning correctly and things just do not make sense. There are indeed medications out there which can help lessen the frequency and severity of these attacks, and if your medication does not completely eliminate these symptoms, I hope that you do not actively campaign against their use by others who suffer from the same symptoms. A great many people have been helped by some of thes drugs, although many have had to try several different drugs, as well as adjust the dosage until they find what works for them.
By this same token, if a person is undergoing frequent and irregular changes in something so innate to their own psyche as their gender identity, and of such severity that they become offended at others for failing to notice the change and referring to them by the correct pronoun of the day (or even hour), would you not say that something is not right here? And would you not want that person to get help, whether through medication or counseling?


Is it bothering  them, or just you? Because believe it or not, my bipolar  does bother me...but that doesn't mean that Gender Identity Disorder, even to the extreme you're mentioning, bothers  them, or even unduly annoys people around them, especially given that even  I get annoyed at how people utterly, point-blank refuse to use the correct pronoun even for people who have had gender reassignment surgery.

The four D's of diagnostics: Deviant, Distressing, Dysfunctional, with optional of Dangerous. I'll grant that this disorder is deviant, but dysfunctional, or distressing to anyone other than the 'YOU MUST REMAIN YOUR BIRTH GENDER!!!11!' crowd? Ha. You're funny.

/And why the fark would you think I wouldn't advocate meds for people who actually need them? I mentioned already that for some people, like me, it's just point-blank necessary.
2013-07-17 04:46:03 PM
1 votes:
PsiChick:

I do not have bipolar disorder myself. I have however, lived with two different people with this disorder.

It is called 'disorder' for a reason - it is different from the way the body and brain normally function. If you truly do suffer from depressive episodes as one does with this disorder, I do not believe for one moment that you would wish these on your mortal enemy. During an episode, a person's brain is simply not functioning correctly and things just do not make sense. There are indeed medications out there which can help lessen the frequency and severity of these attacks, and if your medication does not completely eliminate these symptoms, I hope that you do not actively campaign against their use by others who suffer from the same symptoms. A great many people have been helped by some of thes drugs, although many have had to try several different drugs, as well as adjust the dosage until they find what works for them.
By this same token, if a person is undergoing frequent and irregular changes in something so innate to their own psyche as their gender identity, and of such severity that they become offended at others for failing to notice the change and referring to them by the correct pronoun of the day (or even hour), would you not say that something is not right here? And would you not want that person to get help, whether through medication or counseling?
2013-07-17 04:32:01 PM
1 votes:

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Lunchlady: shiat like this is what makes the developing world hate us. We've solved so many actual problems that now we are creating meaningless ones to focus on instead of helping others. Heaven forbid this energy was used on a more useful endeavor like clean drinking water around the world instead of making sure we don't hurt some over-indulged douchebag's feelings.

I have been informed via this thread the the suffering of that douchebag at being referred to by an unwanted gender pronoun is as valid and deserving of time and resources as a child who gets on meal a day, or a woman who walks seven miles every morning to obtain fresh water. I understand your desire to put their pain in some sort of larger context but today I've learned that to ignore or minimize his suffering is literally a hate crime.


The more time people spend being nice to transexuals, the less food farmers produce and truckers can distribute.

Makes sense.
2013-07-17 04:23:36 PM
1 votes:

Monkeyhouse Zendo: alice_600: I don't know about you but that comment was as bipolar as they come.

Bipolar? At ten personality shifts a day I think we're officially in bat(shiat) country.


Because clearly, nobody in the history of ever has been annoyed at a stupid comment that, once again, supports forcing mentally ill people to endure hellish consequences because some random asshole is mildly annoyed at the THOUGHT of someone being different than them. This is the second thread where someone's done this--you think it's not annoying to watch people advocating farking around with their fellow human beings because they're too  lazy to learn a few new vocabulary words? That's the least bipolar thing I've done all day.
2013-07-17 03:54:46 PM
1 votes:

Scrotastic Method: It's like this no-gluten crap. Do some people have celiac disease? Absolutely. Very, very few people, but some. Do you ever see complaints about gluten allergies in developing, third-world, or even lower-class situations? Of course not. Were our grandparents worried about it? Has it come up in past generations as a basic concern of humanity? No. It's a burden of free time, a problem of convenience, or a sign of mental illness to start pondering your "true gender identity" or some such nonsense.


Because they die in infancy due to malnutrition from gluten. At the time or place, it's just the high rate of infant mortality.
2013-07-17 03:45:14 PM
1 votes:
It's kinda worrying how many people are willing to take a collosal shiat all over the TG community based off the actions of some idiots on tumblr/in academia.
2013-07-17 03:36:18 PM
1 votes:

Scrotastic Method: Mock26: Scrotastic Method: /we're born. That's it. Nobody's meant to be anything else. Make the best of what you have, be happy. Trying to change it is, at best, wearing a costume and, at worst, living a lie to yourself.

Wise words.  Or rather, they would be wise words if everything was simplyl black and white and there was no ambiguity with a person's gender and/or sex.

Born with a penis? You're male. Born with a vagina? Female. That's pretty black and white. Are you homosexual? Separate issue. Are you one of the one in every few billion humans with a legitimate gender mutation? Sure, there are considerations there. But if you just think you're "supposed" to have been something different, well then, what's the foundational argument -- your soul is in the wrong body? You didn't get what you want? The first of those is nonsense and the second is a too-bad-for-you problem.

It's like this no-gluten crap. Do some people have celiac disease? Absolutely. Very, very few people, but some. Do you ever see complaints about gluten allergies in developing, third-world, or even lower-class situations? Of course not. Were our grandparents worried about it? Has it come up in past generations as a basic concern of humanity? No. It's a burden of free time, a problem of convenience, or a sign of mental illness to start pondering your "true gender identity" or some such nonsense.


Let me guess, you think homosexuals choose to be that way, right?
2013-07-17 02:28:07 PM
1 votes:

Stained Glass Shattering: thurstonxhowell: evoke: It's females who want to turn their boys into girls. It's almost never the other way around.

Yeah, you never see fathers encouraging their daughters to play sports, study math, and spend less time being concerned with how they look.

So that's what boys do.  I see.


Boys who conform to traditional gender roles, yes. Those are some hallmarks of the traditional male gender role. Do you disagree? Accepting that some people don't conform to traditional gender roles and shouldn't have to doesn't mean I have to pretend that traditional gender roles don't exist.

Fathers guiding their daughters to act more closely to the traditional male gender role is considered normal and even beneficial, while a boy being guided toward a traditional female role is considered emasculating, confusing, and harmful. Why is that?
2013-07-17 01:53:26 PM
1 votes:

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Maggie_Luna: This seemed possibly relevant, just saw it while clicking through another article:

"A Boy's Camp to Redefine Gender"

Because  you know, not gender conformation.


[www.slate.com image 850x491]

That kid on the right looks pretty damned happy. Good thing he's not being oppressed by gender stereotypical modes of entertainment like sports or outdoor play.

/also, someone's getting mercilessly teased if those pictures ever get out


That's pretty disturbing. Almost akin to child endangerment in my opinion. They're seriously going to damage those kids lives forever because they themselves are so insecure. My guess is that it's radical feminists who hate the male sex so much that they want to turn their boys (should've had an abortion) into girls. Because that's pretty much what it always is. It's females who want to turn their boys into girls. It's almost never the other way around. Why? Because the male gender identity and sexuality isn't something that should be encouraged. Sickening.

Of course, it'll never stick. Give it a few years and those kids are all going to go back to their "gender roles". You can mold small children to almost anything you want. Unfortunately parents take advantage of that.
2013-07-17 01:49:23 PM
1 votes:

vygramul: If you hand them the brain of a transgendered person, their assessment matches the new gender, not the birth gender.


That is pretty tough if they made up the gender...
2013-07-17 01:32:51 PM
1 votes:
How about you let me enjoy my meal with no mention of your sexuality whatsoever, you f*cking idiot? I dont give a shiat whats dangling between your legs,  just give me decent service and youll get a tip.
2013-07-17 01:31:19 PM
1 votes:
If you have a dick, I'm gonna call you "He".

If you have a vag, I'm gonna call you "she"

Don't like it?  Tough shiat.  Go cry somewhere.
2013-07-17 01:08:54 PM
1 votes:

willfullyobscure: Yes, i hear they LOOOOVE the males that retain their penises, cross dress and then expect to be able to hop into bed with lesbians and call the females transphobic if they don't agree to touch their "female penis".


Isn't the important thing that they identify as female? So what if they love other women in the same way as a cis-gendered lesbian?

Feminists LOOOOVE it when men dress up like women and try to claim they're as oppressed as actual females.

I think you may have stumbled onto the problem. Oppression is a valuable commodity. Can't have the wrong people claiming it, can we?
2013-07-17 01:08:21 PM
1 votes:

Smackledorfer: Why it is so difficult to believe, in a world where entire extra genes wind up in people in a species that should only have 26 pairs, that some people get born with an error combination of male and female, I have no idea.


It's a very scary proposition for some people because it suggests that gender is *not* a social construct and that instead there may be significant cognitive differences between men and women due to biology. This in turn could have some very inconvenient ramifications (for example, the concepts that "boys are better at math" or "women are better nurturers" may not be as sexist as some people desperately want to believe). I think this is part of the reason why feminists tend to hate trans-gendered people, as their very existence flies in the face of their indoctrinated beliefs.
2013-07-17 12:42:17 PM
1 votes:

DrPainMD: FTA: "...a new generation of young people is..."

And people still insist that "Idiocracy" wasn't a documentary.


Hey, people acted like retards in the 60s too! This is just a new generation of retards that will grow up, stop being retarded, and give birth to the next generation of "socially aware" protesting retards.
2013-07-17 12:35:30 PM
1 votes:

pacified: How can one not have better things to do with their time than sit around and figure out how to be offended?


Being seen as a victim has great power, people will go to any lengths to obtain and/or keep that status.
2013-07-17 12:23:18 PM
1 votes:

liam76: I am sure the world would be a better place it we began every interaction with a couple sentences on how we would like to be refered to rather than take these offensive titles that language is trying to force us into.


Language is a protocol for communicating meaning. Can you imagine if we had to do protocol negotiation before every conversational exchange?
2013-07-17 12:15:37 PM
1 votes:

MechaPyx: Seriously, would you want to be brainwashed?


I bet you're with the militant deaf who oppose cochlear implants on the grounds that they are destructive to the "deaf community".
2013-07-17 12:03:45 PM
1 votes:

mrshowrules: The point is not the pronoun solution, it is that people are thinking/talking about it.  The empathy itself is the point of the exercise.  What comes out of might be important/significant but that it is happening is cool in and of itself.


So the plan is to build empathy by being generally annoying? Have you really thought this through? I know the old axiom that "any publicity is good publicity" but I'm not certain that applies to every situation.
2013-07-17 11:45:40 AM
1 votes:
mrshowrules:Perhaps you don't realize how significant an issue gender identity is because you are secure in your identity.

Perhaps you don't realize that while I recognize gender dysphoria causes mental suffering I tend to rank suffering in terms of intensity. I have watched people dither over issues of social discomfort while they ignore others who live in hunger and want. Maybe that's not everyone who complains that they don't like the current set of gendered pronouns but it has certainly been my experience of them: well fed, comfortable, secure but driven to stamp out that last bit of discomfort before considering that others may be experiencing more acute and life threatening suffering.

I don't deny that they suffer. I simply view the pain of an unwanted pronoun to be like complaining that you have a splinter in your thumb and that once you have it out you'll turn your attention the person on fire.

Empathy is ability to understand other people's suffering even if you do not have direct experience with it.

What makes you think I don't understand the discomfort of a pronoun one doesn't fully identify with? Is it that I don't immediately leap assuage that pain?
2013-07-17 11:41:20 AM
1 votes:

theflatline: I think the poster who said previously that the majority of us walking around the planet, especially in the US, are just concerned with being, and are not further trying to segregate ourselves or anyone else by creating classes of gender or any other classes for that matter.

I see a person in front of me, and that is all. Just because I choose not to address every fringe group and learn their way of thinking does not mean I am a racist or a bigot. Nor is it my fault for having been born hetero. I just do not like people lecturing me on how I should react and think......


Very well said.

A person is a person to me.  I treat everyone equally and how I want to be treated...that is right up to the point where they militantly point out how different they are.  Or worse, deride me because my societal norm of addressing human beings doesn't meet with their expectations.  And then the worst part is when I try to correct my "offense" out of courtesy and then get some vitriolic soliloquy because I'm perceived as one of "those people"

Here's a tip.  If I'm treating you respectfully and you insist on taking out your pent up rage on me because I made an honest mistake, you have just made me one of "those people" as far as you are concerned.
2013-07-17 11:35:57 AM
1 votes:

Monkeyhouse Zendo: FatPrincess: Giving bigots a model for social communication with non-binary gender presenting individuals would help reduce violence.

Why should I let you hand wave your assertion away as "it's complicated"?


Okay, I'm just winging it here so I'll consider all criticism as constructive.

In the formation of community we inquire about his or her relationship to it and to others' participation. Membership in a community requires identification and a common symbol system. Non-conforming individuals who physically reside in the community risk dehumanization, threats, and depersonalization into stereotypical caricatures as bigots try to police the cultural norms. Discussing a scheme of social interactions such as gender neutral pronouns will raise the sociological hierarchy of bigots from behavior and action, such as punching and kicking, to social relation where they instead have a framework for integrating the transsexual as a community member instead of bashing them.
2013-07-17 11:05:40 AM
1 votes:

Theaetetus: MrBallou: theflatline: I am open minded, friend of hetero,homo, confused, intersexed, and whatever gender assignment you are calling yourself.

As long as I do not have to hear about it all the damn time I could care less

This is what the whole LGBTASOetc. controversy comes down to for me. If I'm not trying to have sex with you, why on earth would it matter to me what your sexual interests are?

Gender identity is not the same as sexual preference.


I thought we were not suppose to care about gender identity.

I hate this brave new world.
2013-07-17 11:03:55 AM
1 votes:

IAAl: I am sure that the Fark comments on an article about the gender spectrum is about the last useful place to post this but hey, why not?

Gender is not binary.

Not all people are simply Male or Female.

Regardless of how you define Male or Female, there are people who are both or neither.

If you want to go with the simplistic "is the 23rd set of chromosomes XX or XY?"  You will find that there are people with more than just two, see Aneuploidy.

If you decide to go with sex organs, there are people with both and people with neither.

Needless to say, if you go with characteristics or other physiology you see a wide range of characteristics among people that cross gender norms.

It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation.  Just because you identify strongly with one gender, and perhaps even look the part, does not mean that everyone does or that everyone identifies with either gender.


Sexual orientation isn't binary either. This is the same "up in arms" that people got over bisexuals, or people who might be hetero one day and homo the next. Nothing, it appears, about human beings is binary, not even the simple male/female question. So, we get to see people post on fark and everywhere else about how "they wish these people would stop making such a public deal of it" as they continue on about their day not counting the number of times they make a big deal about their gender or sexuality. And we'll eventually hear from the 'compassionate conservative minority' about how the actions of people they've never met are threatening their marriage, children, or something else. Even though, if they looked, they'd find someone gender queer in their own family.

And to the trans folks, I don't think you need to give up being at one side of the spectrum or the other just because some people choose the middle. Just like I wouldn't tell someone strictly straight or gay that they need to be bi just because Kinsey did this study a few years ago. If you are comfortable at that point on the spectrum, then embrace it. Me? I'll keep flipping a coin each morning, or using some Brownian motion to determine my place on the spectrum.
2013-07-17 10:55:55 AM
1 votes:
Be whatever you like.  But if you give me a list of things to call you, i'm going to ignore those and just call you Asshole.
2013-07-17 10:54:40 AM
1 votes:

Lexx: mrshowrules: Monkeyhouse Zendo: thurstonxhowell: Oh no. Young people are exploring new ways of thinking! They must be stopped!

More like "young people are exploring largely pointless and unproductive ways of thinking rather than making any effort to address actual issues of human suffering".

Stigma associated with gender identity issues is a form of human suffering.

At the bottom of the goddamned priority list though, far lower than slavery, poverty, war, education, disease, etc etc.


For the person suffering it, it may be at the top of their list.  I never heard the rule that bigger problems had to be solved before smaller problems could be looked at.

I'm sure ending slavery was not considered a priority at the time either.
2013-07-17 10:27:09 AM
1 votes:

thurstonxhowell: Oh no. Young people are exploring new ways of thinking! They must be stopped!


More like "young people are exploring largely pointless and unproductive ways of thinking rather than making any effort to address actual issues of human suffering".
2013-07-17 10:19:36 AM
1 votes:

Theaetetus: Inadequate on both counts.


Honestly don't give a shiat. As far as I'm concerned, what we're talking about is narcissism.
2013-07-17 10:11:11 AM
1 votes:
We need a gender-neutral pronoun just so I can deal with the Pat's of the world with as little explanatory discussion as possible. Beyond that, unless you're looking to date me or my kids I don't give a fark what you think about gender.

ts3.mm.bing.net
2013-07-17 10:04:46 AM
1 votes:

Rurouni: When did we as a society started giving a shiat what kids and young people think? Kids are young people are dumber than shiat.


Facebook and the Internet have led over-priveleged idiots to believe that their opinions actually matter.
2013-07-17 10:02:29 AM
1 votes:
When did we as a society started giving a shiat what kids and young people think? Kids are young people are dumber than shiat.
2013-07-17 09:58:40 AM
1 votes:
If you were born with a penis you're male. If you were born with a vagina you're female. You're free to do whatever the hell you want with them after you're born and I couldn't care less, but biology is biology. I'm not a duck just because I say so.
2013-07-17 09:53:09 AM
1 votes:
I find this discussion ephemeral, its proponents a bore, and the end-result generally underwhelming. The role of language it to provide a framework for communication under which we can all agree that certain sounds represent certain concepts. People like to fark with it in the hopes that changing the framework will change reality around to a new configuration. (This doesn't happen, historically, but people like to dream.)

If the argument is that pronouns are just labels, and humans label things however they want, so you can use whatever pronoun you want to refer to yourself, whether it's he or her or ou or zee or shim or anything -- cool. I'm totally fine with it. Enjoy yourself. But recognize you're working at destroying the framework of the language we use to refer to one another and that this will make future communication quite complicated. Perhaps complex communication is what you're after. That's also cool, but if you're that hung up on pronouns I suspect that you're a boring coont and not someone worth talking to in the first place.

Don't get upset at me thinking you're a boring coont. It's just a label. Humans label things however they want. That's my label for people hung up on their pronouns. Boring coonts, be they boy-coonts or girl-coonts or ou-coonts or zee-coonts or gender-fluid-coonts.

That's my solution. You needed a custom non-cis-gender-confirming pronoun to properly express yourself? You're lumped into the 'coont' category. A coontegory, if you will. I can make new labels, too. I certainly mean no offense and trust you'll respect my unique perspective on this. After all, we're all human, at least 'til you find new words to describe that state of being, too.

/I once saw someone write that they were cool with anyone, even a omnisexual gender-queer species-fluid trans-bovine, as long as this individual shows up for work on time.
//They moo no offense, of course.
2013-07-17 09:29:17 AM
1 votes:
It puts the lotion on it's skin.

/Even though it identifies as agender, practicing proper skincare should be part of any gender presentation.
2013-07-17 09:24:46 AM
1 votes:
I'm a 38-year old programmer/analyst, but I identify as a 22-year old college athlete. Please respect my choices by having choice-appropriate college girls sent to my room.
2013-07-17 09:16:12 AM
1 votes:
These people are farked when it comes to romance languages - every word is masculine or feminine.

ringersol: staplermofo: "Ungendered pronouns would be great."

Like they/them/theirs ?
Or do we need new ones?

I generally go out of my way to not be a dick, and to accommodate other people.  But there is a line at which, no, I am not willing to re-wire myself to use newly-invented words to help people who are different feel not-different.  Particularly not to the point that the repetition of the preferences of the majority will come across like mocking.

I mean, do we invent a word for "not-disabled", that the bulk of us can use to describe ourselves as such, so that disabled people don't feel categorized by having to specify possible additional preferences/needs?  "Hi, I'm Bob and I'm cis-abled; I don't need a ramp or handicapped stall or items to be placed at wheelchair-accessible heights."

To me, the "cis-gender" "here's my pronouns preference" shiat sounds just as incredibly cruel.


Your position basically equates people who don't fall into the gender binary as having a disability.  I think that may be one of the fundamental points of argument.  Having come to terms with their different-ness, they want to change the English language & social customs to normalize their condition in the eyes of the general public, or at least create the perception that gender is fluid & not binary.

I pity them for this, since has a snowball's chance in hell of happening.
2013-07-17 09:13:55 AM
1 votes:
I felt the urge to punch each person who contributed to this article.

Is that wrong of me...or a perfectly rational response to complete farking bullshiat?
2013-07-17 09:10:02 AM
1 votes:
And to all those who are saying "I don't care so don't bother me with this." that is what is so frustrating for these people. It is a complex issue and otherwise well meaning people refuse to even think about it. These folks are isolated and marginalized. These kids are trying to carve out their spot in society and are sick of being swept aside. Race relations didn't get better until people started talking about the issues and what it was like to be a minority. To truly be able to accept someone as they are there has to be a certain level of understanding and empathy. We all know what the average middle class straight white dude is thinking or feeling because we get beat over the head with it day in and day out. Take a few minutes to think about what these people are going through and what it must be like to constantly be shrugged of as a weirdo or AW.

Don't be so selfish.
xcv
2013-07-17 09:06:44 AM
1 votes:
media.tumblr.com
2013-07-17 08:56:01 AM
1 votes:

Super_pope: Its not my job to keep straight how you THINK about yourself, especially if I have no idea who you are.


That's kind of the whole point of them telling you.
2013-07-17 08:54:49 AM
1 votes:
I just refer to everyone as "consumer." Well, hello consumer, yes, hello consumer. Bop bop bee da bop Bebop Cola, yeah.

25.media.tumblr.com
2013-07-17 08:49:33 AM
1 votes:
And I think people are missing the point. This is more than likely being done to shove the issue to the front of the conversation. A friend of mine has been going through a REAL hard time with this exact scenario. I call her she because that's how I met her. Born a female but very androgynous and before anyone starts saying "lesbo AW! Whargharble!!1" there are severe chemical and physical differences with her. For example she could grow a beard as a teen. Imagine how f*cking terrible and confusing that would have been. She held all that gender crap in and just played the part of girl/tomboy. Dated guys and chicks but mostly just wasn't interested in sex. She hid it from most of her friends even though we are all supposedly open minded and ultra progressive people. Well a few years back she was completely breaking down because of the stress of this and started talking to doctors (who confirmed the physical gender problems) and her friends. Well apparently a lot of people were complete assholes to her about it. It was shocking considering the community. Very pro equal rights across the board but for some reason just the thought of a trans gender made them all wonky. Very disappointing. I guess I am one of the few she's been able to talk to about it and I find that heartbreaking.

So no. It's not easy for these people and this is obviously a way for them let people know who and what they are and make people talk about it instead of just squirming in their seats or waiting until they leave to talk behind their backs.

Put yourselves in their shoes. How would you feel?
2013-07-17 08:40:29 AM
1 votes:

BowtoMogul: Questioning, Uninterested, Biased and Furry


This isn't a response to you but its as good a jumping off place as any. Settle down, children, it's cool story bro time. Are you settled? Good, then let's begin.

At one time I attended a Unitarian Church and the meetings of its Social Justice Committee because I was interested in things like food kitchens, services for local poor, etc. What I discovered was that the Social Justice Committee was almost entirely focused on issues of LGBT acceptance. Various events were discussed intended to raise awareness and promote acceptance of people of alternative lifestyle choices. The problem was that in order to ensure that nobody was silenced and everyone had their say, discussion went on week after week of the minutiae of how to raise awareness without causing offense to some faction within the "alphabet soup" community. After a year of meetings, no event had been organized, no food dispensed, no shelter provided. Just endless talk of valid alternative lifestyles and triggers.

This is now my perception when anyone mentions raising awareness or the LGBT community: endless talk and narcissism while actual human misery is ignored.
2013-07-17 08:40:19 AM
1 votes:
The point I'm attempting to make is I think we need to stop cutting ourselves into smaller and smaller categories.
Why can't we just be people?

Somewhat relevant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZkl1QpkJ00">http://www.youtube.com/w atch?v=JZkl1QpkJ00

/Flame on
2013-07-17 08:40:13 AM
1 votes:

AngryDragon: [gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net image 400x300]

Seriously.  Just tell us whatever the hell you want to be called and move on already.  The only reason this is an issue is because you're MAKING it an issue.  99% of people will politely acquiesce to your wishes out of courtesy if you just ask/correct them politely.

This smacks of AW syndrome.


Yeah, when someone addresses you with a smug tone of challenge, they're actually LESS likely to get cooperation. It's like they WANT the confrontation because they can afford it and are willing to buy the cool story how the guy they met, who they just KNEW was a total bigot, had a negative reaction to their aggressiveness. It's a complete obliviousness to their own reality.
2013-07-17 08:39:54 AM
1 votes:

DrPainMD: FTA: "...a new generation of young people is..."

And people still insist that "Idiocracy" wasn't a documentary.


I don't see the error.  If you implying it should be "...a new generation of young people are...", that would be grammatically incorrect.  You can check by removing the prepositional phrase:  "a new generation is" versus "a new generation are."  The verb is associated with a singular generation.
2013-07-17 08:38:31 AM
1 votes:

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: IAAl: I am sure that the Fark comments on an article about the gender spectrum is about the last useful place to post this but hey, why not?

Gender is not binary.

Not all people are simply Male or Female.

Regardless of how you define Male or Female, there are people who are both or neither.

If you want to go with the simplistic "is the 23rd set of chromosomes XX or XY?"  You will find that there are people with more than just two, see Aneuploidy.

If you decide to go with sex organs, there are people with both and people with neither.

Needless to say, if you go with characteristics or other physiology you see a wide range of characteristics among people that cross gender norms.

It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation.  Just because you identify strongly with one gender, and perhaps even look the part, does not mean that everyone does or that everyone identifies with either gender.

You're confusing "butch" and "fem" as actual core psych identities.  Gender identity is binary.  It may not match the genitals you are born with, but it's one or the other.  It's a very core component of the human mind.

Yes, you can be a femmy male. (hi Ghastly!)  You can be a butch female.  You can be a male who enjoys stereotypical female activities and norms, and vice versa.  None of this has any bearing on your core gender identity.

I hear it all the time, "Well, I'm male BUT (insert cross-gender activities)".

Trust me, if you IDed as male this week, female next, 70%/30% for two weeks, totally asexual after that....you would be mentally screwed up.  Hell, look at the mental/emotional disorders "simple" transgender people come with!


Kinda seems like you're forcing people into binary gender categories, rather than them adhering to one or the other within certain contexts.  The whole point is that the binary categorization is a poor way of describing the complexity of the human experience, i.e. "I'm a man but I like interior design" is cop-out.

Don't worry, though.  Pretty soon you and others like you will die and the world will continue to move on without you, very likely further and further towards the eradication of the dichotomous gender system.
2013-07-17 08:38:21 AM
1 votes:
About 10 years ago, we traveled to Arizona because my brother was in a baseball showcase and one of our first nights there we ate at an Olive Garden (I know, I know, let me tell the damn story).  Well our server comes up and asks for our drink order and when they go to get it we all decide we couldn't determine the gender, so we decided we'd check the name on their return and we could base the gender on that.  When they came back with drinks the name tag said "Jaye," not exactly a big help.

You know how we got around this problem?  We just used "Jaye."  Why do you need a pronoun for your server? Just use their name.
2013-07-17 08:36:37 AM
1 votes:
Just call them by their name tag and ask for a new server....  or just keep repeating SYNTAX ERROR SYNTAX ERROR SYNTAX ERROR as you walk out.  You should NEVER feel uncomfortable over a pronoun.
2013-07-17 08:30:10 AM
1 votes:
There are a lot of guys in this thread with a lot of latent anger towards themselves and society because what they assumed were hard rules about gender and sexuality have changed. The rules you adhere to don't give you anything tangible. You aren't a "real man" because you played with trucks and roll your eyes at a rack of pink dress shirts. Following cultural norms is all well and good, until you've become so distant to the reasons and historical context that you're enforcing them - as evidenced in this thread - with such enthusiasm and vitriol - for the sake of just making others feel like outsiders.

Some people are different. Learn to deal with it.
2013-07-17 08:20:25 AM
1 votes:
"Hello my name is Pope Francis and I use the is/eius/ei pronouns."
2013-07-17 08:18:58 AM
1 votes:

IAAl: I am sure that the Fark comments on an article about the gender spectrum is about the last useful place to post this but hey, why not?

Gender is not binary.

Not all people are simply Male or Female.

Regardless of how you define Male or Female, there are people who are both or neither.

If you want to go with the simplistic "is the 23rd set of chromosomes XX or XY?"  You will find that there are people with more than just two, see Aneuploidy.

If you decide to go with sex organs, there are people with both and people with neither.

Needless to say, if you go with characteristics or other physiology you see a wide range of characteristics among people that cross gender norms.

It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation.  Just because you identify strongly with one gender, and perhaps even look the part, does not mean that everyone does or that everyone identifies with either gender.


You're confusing "butch" and "fem" as actual core psych identities.  Gender identity is binary.  It may not match the genitals you are born with, but it's one or the other.  It's a very core component of the human mind.

Yes, you can be a femmy male. (hi Ghastly!)  You can be a butch female.  You can be a male who enjoys stereotypical female activities and norms, and vice versa.  None of this has any bearing on your core gender identity.

I hear it all the time, "Well, I'm male BUT (insert cross-gender activities)".

Trust me, if you IDed as male this week, female next, 70%/30% for two weeks, totally asexual after that....you would be mentally screwed up.  Hell, look at the mental/emotional disorders "simple" transgender people come with!
2013-07-17 08:18:05 AM
1 votes:

Bontesla: The goal isn't to create a new identity but to raise awareness.


Excellent. In the future you may refer to me as "His August Presence" or "Dread Lord" so that we can further raise awareness of the oppressiveness of gendered pronouns.

/[yourenothelping.jpg]
2013-07-17 08:14:00 AM
1 votes:
And the tail continues to wag the dog.
2013-07-17 08:05:23 AM
1 votes:
How about "I'm here to have dinner, not indulge your psychoses"?
2013-07-17 08:03:01 AM
1 votes:

DrPainMD: There. Now, in twenty years, I will be hailed as a progressive thinker who was ahead of his time, and you will be lumped in with Limbaugh, Beck, Gingrich and Stalin. Won't that be fun?


In 50, you'll be seen as no different from Limbaugh if you hold a single view that's not PC in the future. Just look at the crap Heinlein gets for his blatant racism and sexism in Starship Troopers, written in the '50s, with a Filipino protagonist and a majority of naval officers being women. In the '50s. Or Tolkien, who was sexist for not having more women in the story he started writing in the '30s which only had women being some of the most powerful warriors in the story. Go back further, and when a slave-owner says to other slave-owners, "You know this may not be a good idea. In fact, it might be pretty farking immoral," he's viewed as a colossal hypocrite rather than a guy breaking with traditional thought.

So, yea, you'll be Limbaugh. So will I. None of us get out of here without being bigoted farks in someone's eyes in the future.
2013-07-17 07:54:08 AM
1 votes:
Since I mentioned questions, here's the answers to the most common questions:

Since I was little.
The bathroom my "brain" gender identifies with.
It stops working reliably on hormones.
Very expensive, and most insurance doesn't cover it.
It's not contagious.
No I can't have kids.

And, the biggest question of all....

Do you normally ask people about their genitals, and major surgeries they may have had?
2013-07-17 07:53:43 AM
1 votes:

UNC_Samurai: bighairyguy: If that happened to me at Olive Garden, I'd say: "Your gender pronoun is I didn't come here for a lecture, keeping your farking breadsticks, I'm going next door to Red Lobster. "

You takin' her to Red Lobster with the cheddar biscuits? The fam ain't eatin' cheddar biscuits, but this random broad is eatin' cheddar biscuits?


I can stay home and eat RL cheddar biscuits.  The mix is $5.98 at Sam's Club.
2013-07-17 07:52:31 AM
1 votes:

CheatCommando: bighairyguy: If that happened to me at Olive Garden, I'd say: "Your gender pronoun is I didn't come here for a lecture, keeping your farking breadsticks, I'm going next door to Red Lobster. "

Which is owned by Olive Garden and will probably have the same policy.


I know that, that why they're usually right next door.  Just spinning the wheel and hoping for a server who keep their personal issues in the kitchen where they belong.
2013-07-17 07:40:01 AM
1 votes:
i26.photobucket.com
2013-07-17 07:37:01 AM
1 votes:

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: who just want to be recognized as normal folks.


That's an ostensibly lofty goal but I'm pretty sure Ward Cleaver is out blowing bums for SoCo in the Greyhound station bog in a tutu while listening to the Scissor Sisters and slamming meth with a turkey baster fit, so good luck on the normal index.  See, the problem with moving everything that doesn't fit comfortably in one's private Idaho into the margins is that eventually, we all end up in an S&M crack dungeon in N. Hollywood and completely out of people to be oppressed by.  Which isn't all that attractive if you can't change the channel.
2013-07-17 07:23:15 AM
1 votes:
If that happened to me at Olive Garden, I'd say: "Your gender pronoun is I didn't come here for a lecture, keeping your farking breadsticks, I'm going next door to Red Lobster. "
2013-07-17 07:21:23 AM
1 votes:

dahmers love zombie: We encountered high school students who said, I want you to call me Tractor and use pronouns like zee, zim and zer

LOL


What's wrong with shklee?
2013-07-17 07:20:31 AM
1 votes:

ox45tallboy: Why don't dudes get a couch? What the hell are women doing in the can that necessitates a couch? I want a couch to chill on in the can. I would totally call the restaurant's number on my cell and ask for my waiter and then tell him bring me another beer to the couch in the men's room. Bonus points if it's a waitress. More bonus points if she does it. Negative points if she changes gender first.


...and THAT is why you do not get a couch!
2013-07-17 07:19:43 AM
1 votes:
Y'know, since it's in colloquial use anyway, I don't get why the generic plural hasn't been deemed by whoever is in charge as acceptable. Gender may be a wide spectrum, but we don't need as many pronouns as there are subgenres of techno.
2013-07-17 07:13:47 AM
1 votes:

Jim_Callahan: While I wasn't raised in a barn, so I can in public basically call anyone whatever they ask to be called by with a straight face, I have to admit that every time someone makes a big deal out of being identified by their obvious biological gender (or getting annoyed when you mess it up, in the case of androgynous people) my actual unspoken reaction is basically "Oh my god who the hell cares".

If shiat like this actually catches on (probably won't) I'll learn it because etiquette is a life skill, but don't expect me to use it outside of formal venues.  PC crap is and always has been an artificial waste of time that conceals an underlying problem instead of or even at the expense of actually fixing it.


You don't care because you don't struggle with it. You take it for granted.

I know of an incredibly brave person who was born a man but just announced their desire to begin the process of gender reassignment. 56 years of being referred to as the wrong gender can wear a person down.

We tend to think of something as less important if it's not something we struggle with.
2013-07-17 07:13:10 AM
1 votes:

Yogimus: What ever happened to "Pervert"?


I prefer 'Weirdo'
2013-07-17 07:07:41 AM
1 votes:
"eau, muy gawd, like, hello and like, everything is like, about meh, and like, all descriptors are like, totally sexist and hate speech and seau uhpressive and like, we have, like, all this ever seau IMPORTANT gymnastic like, stuff about words and it's very important cause like, I'm a very serious person because, like I got these ublung glusses and they're like, totally serious and you have to care about all this cause it's like, seau uffensive and like, important and gimmie munny nao."

Next slide, please.
2013-07-17 07:04:52 AM
1 votes:
A college I recently visited changed the bathrooms to gender neutral, put a sign on the door saying to lock the door when you go in. WTF So 1 person using it stops anyone else from using the other stalls or urinals.
2013-07-17 07:02:49 AM
1 votes:

Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.


All for the pierced/painted/trans/gay/straight world we live in, but I saw three otherwise able bodied people rooting through garbage this morning looking for scrap. Trying to make ends meet. They need work, and we're wasting our time navel gazing. Aren't we special.
2013-07-17 07:00:02 AM
1 votes:

maudibjr: Why does this have to be so confusing.  I'm just going to keep calling everyone dude.


Are you grooming your poodle? Can you show me your tattoos? Are you in the music business? Are you handling the money? Are you serving the food?
2013-07-17 06:59:54 AM
1 votes:

maudibjr: Why does this have to be so confusing.  I'm just going to keep calling everyone dude.


"Bro" also works really well.

25.media.tumblr.com
2013-07-17 06:54:28 AM
1 votes:

God Is My Co-Pirate: Hey hey hey, the couch is awesome.  Leave our couch alone.


Stop being so heteronormative, you fascist.
2013-07-17 02:30:59 AM
1 votes:
Lady in dress, man in pants, man in dress, woman in pants with small christmas tree, fabulous person, cripple lady, handicapable lady.
2013-07-17 01:42:15 AM
1 votes:

ox45tallboy: What the hell are women doing in the can that necessitates a couch?


Complaining about the line to get in.
2013-07-17 01:21:38 AM
1 votes:
Ungendered pronouns would be great.  Un-gendering bathrooms would be nice too.  If women peep on men or men hog the couch, it's a small price to pay.  I would hog the shiat out of that couch.
 
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