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(NPR)   Hello, and welcome to Olive Garden. My name is Snowflake, and I'll be your genderqueer postgrad waitron this evening. I'll tell you our specials in a moment, but first, let me tell you that my preferred gender pronoun for tonight is   (npr.org) divider line 734
    More: Stupid, Olive Garden, Oberlin College, homeless youth, students' association, snowflakes, graduate schools, genders  
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21111 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2013 at 6:49 AM (39 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-17 02:36:35 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Smackledorfer: Monkeyhouse Zendo: From a genetic perspective there is very little difference between a male and female

Someone doesn't understand what "very little" means in the context of genetics.  It is quite large.  The X chromosome isn't anywhere close to the Y, and boy howdy you should see what happens when an extra X gets thrown into the mix.

So one chromosome pair out of 23, one chromosome out of 46, 2.1% of genetic data provided that there are no gene complexes in common between the X and Y.

Do you have a problem with my main premise regarding hormones controlling whether gene complexes are enabled/disabled or are you just nitpicking?


Right, you understand nothing about what 'very little difference'means in terms of genetics.

You should see how similar the genetics of a phenalketonuric are to us normies. Why don't you go look that up, then come back and tell us whether we should have 'contains phenalalanine' on labels or continue testing for it. And hey they are only a small percent of the population too, so fark it why change anything for them?

As for my problem, it is you using 'genetically similar' and 'small percent of the population' to justify dismissal of the very real problems faced by your fellow sentient beings. Frost that cake of stupidity with your concern trolling about maintaining a language at the stage you prefer it at and why do you think anyone should respect your views here?
 
2013-07-17 02:39:48 PM

Scrotastic Method: I'm going to take this as nonsense without a link to a valid, substantive medical study.


Women have small brains. Brains a third the size of ours. It's science.

Joking aside, there are nontrivial differences between male and female brains. Even a cursory google search will point you to a number of reputable sources. The transgender brain bit is less clear but transgenders do show some structures more akin to the chosen identity rather than the genetic sex.

Here's one to get you started:  http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full
 
2013-07-17 02:40:09 PM

Scrotastic Method: I'm going to take this as nonsense without a link to a valid, substantive medical study.


Your reaction seems to suggest it would have significant impact. Is that true? I'll provide the link in a little bit - I just want to know if this means your opinion is going to change.
 
2013-07-17 02:40:58 PM

Scrotastic Method: vygramul: Scrotastic Method: I was born with the wrong athletic identity...I was meant to be able to slam-dunk a basketball, but instead I'm a white dude that's barely 6 feet. I'm going to live my life as a 6' 10" black dude though, and I want every that meets me to congratulate me on my many NBA All-Star Game appearances.

/we're born. That's it. Nobody's meant to be anything else. Make the best of what you have, be happy. Trying to change it is, at best, wearing a costume and, at worst, living a lie to yourself.

If you hand a human brain to a scientist, they can tell you whether the person was a male or a female without needing a genetics test.

If you hand them the brain of a transgendered person, their assessment matches the new gender, not the birth gender.

Does that have an impact on your opinion?

I'm going to take this as nonsense without a link to a valid, substantive medical study.

Smackledorfer: time wasted on the LGBT rights movement.

I don't know who's on which side of that argument, so this isn't necessarily pointed at you, but let it be said: as mental as I think it is for someone to want to flip their penis inside out or take hormones to minimize their breasts, gay rights is the defining issue of our time and it's absolutely necessary and serious. You were born how you were born. We should all embrace that, and embrace it in others. But boys thinking they're really girls is just...make-believe.


Agreed Its just guys falling for the romanticized aspect of being female. If they ever had to have a period or give birth they would run screaming the other direction.
 
2013-07-17 02:44:30 PM

thurstonxhowell: evoke: It's females who want to turn their boys into girls. It's almost never the other way around.

Yeah, you never see fathers encouraging their daughters to play sports, study math, and spend less time being concerned with how they look.


That's because responsible fathers drown their girls in the river.
 
2013-07-17 02:45:06 PM

vygramul: Scrotastic Method: I'm going to take this as nonsense without a link to a valid, substantive medical study.

Your reaction seems to suggest it would have significant impact. Is that true? I'll provide the link in a little bit - I just want to know if this means your opinion is going to change.


There are neurological differences between male and female brains, of course.  The salient question for our discussion is, in which context are you comparing transgendered brains to cisgendered?
 
2013-07-17 02:45:19 PM

Stained Glass Shattering: "Fathers guiding their daughters to act more closely to the traditional male gender role is considered normal and even beneficial, while a boy being guided toward a traditional female role is considered emasculating, confusing, and harmful. Why is that?"

I would need to see what you bundle into the "traditional female role" descriptor before an assessment could be offered


I dug myself a hole by putting "study math" in the traditional male role. I should have stuck to play time activities. Since the traditional male role includes being a provider, it's obvious why that's encouraged. What's less obvious is why so many people would encourage a girl to go out in jeans and a tshirt and climb a tree, but never a boy to play with dollies.
 
2013-07-17 02:47:32 PM

ox45tallboy: PsiChick: Well, if anyone were actually doing that you...okay, you still wouldn't have a point, if it can't be cured sometimes catering  is the most ethical thing, but they aren't doing that to begin with. Some people are a  mix of male and female. Think of it like a line with pink at one end and blue at the other. Somewhere in the middle you mix pink and blue. Maybe one person has a bit more pink, maybe one person has a bit more blue...those are the people that are being discussed. They're called genderqueer, I believe. Their identity doesn't 'change on a regular basis'; they just are in the middle of that line instead of at the ends.

/It's not as complicated as it sounds. But their genders stay fixed for their life; it's just  not on the ends of the spectrum you or I are on.

Actually, the part of TFA that I quoted was referring to people who do just that - change gender identities on a regular basis. This is not normal, any more than a person with bipolar disorder is normal - the brain should not work in such a way that one of the foundations of one's ego, one's personality, one's id, etc. - is "fluid" and subject to random changes.

This is a medical problem and can be helped with modern science. I repeat my assertion that catering to a person's whims with regards to seemingly random day-to-day changes of their desired gender-specific pronoun is not helpful to them, any more than catering to the whims of a person with bipolar disorder is helpful to them. It may make your dealings with that person somewhat easier, but it does not help that person.

I do understand that over time, one's perception of oneself, as well as one's perception of a gender, or even the actual way society behaves towards a gender, might cause someone to eventually feel more comfortable in a different gender identity. This is actually normal; just as people change over time and become grumpier in general, or sometimes more generous, or happier in general, so might one's sexual identity gra ...


Fine then, let me speak to you as a person with bipolar. Please define two things for me: First, is it doing anyone, at all,  any harm to have people switch identities even ten times in a day? And second, modern science will help  how?

I can answer both questions for you: No, and 'antidepressants or antipsychotics'. Now, I take an antidepressant, and would take an antipsychotic if needed, because I would otherwise run the risk of harming myself in my depressive episodes. But  they do not function as a cure. They just  soften the urges to something managable. So if your recommendation is to put people on medications, you're just going to give them side effects that range from mild to nasty as fark, not to mention permanent on occasion, to achieve  farking nothing.

What gives you, or anyone else, the right to demand they hurt themselves via medication (yes, some of the side effects are honestly that bad, even for 'basic' meds like Symbyax,) for a condition that hurts nobody at all?
 
2013-07-17 02:48:19 PM

FatPrincess: alice_600: Excuse me? Name calling now?

It's a label. No judgement; both traditional and non-traditional gender roles are workable with the right partner. But seriously, how many people do you think are actually against heterosexual sex? Sex-negative isn't about not wanting or liking sex; it's that true consent cannot be obtained from the partner who is lower in power.


Actually let me add on to this.
See here's the deal. When I was in College I learned there were two worlds. The world of Academia and the outside world.
See in Academia it's all posh and safe and cute. You eat your vegan tofu burgers and think you're gonna change the world. But once you leave the campus it's not all cute it's all horrors. You realize you can't change the world. You can't eat tofu burgers because they cost more and your doctor told you to cut down on soy foods because of the sodium content.
Then your job you thought was going to be awesome is replaced by a younger person who is as brain dead and giving blow jobs and oral sex to half the office's ceo's to get higher up than you.
The next thing you know your 75 years old 3 kids who grew up to be dead brained losers with 5 kids each from 4 differnt men and women. Who are mooching off you and your spouse because you didn't want to hurt their feelings as screaming toddlers.
So tell me how this crap works now?
 
2013-07-17 02:53:13 PM

alice_600: FatPrincess: alice_600: Excuse me? Name calling now?

It's a label. No judgement; both traditional and non-traditional gender roles are workable with the right partner. But seriously, how many people do you think are actually against heterosexual sex? Sex-negative isn't about not wanting or liking sex; it's that true consent cannot be obtained from the partner who is lower in power.

Actually let me add on to this.
See here's the deal. When I was in College I learned there were two worlds. The world of Academia and the outside world.
See in Academia it's all posh and safe and cute. You eat your vegan tofu burgers and think you're gonna change the world. But once you leave the campus it's not all cute it's all horrors. You realize you can't change the world. You can't eat tofu burgers because they cost more and your doctor told you to cut down on soy foods because of the sodium content.
Then your job you thought was going to be awesome is replaced by a younger person who is as brain dead and giving blow jobs and oral sex to half the office's ceo's to get higher up than you.
The next thing you know your 75 years old 3 kids who grew up to be dead brained losers with 5 kids each from 4 differnt men and women. Who are mooching off you and your spouse because you didn't want to hurt their feelings as screaming toddlers.
So tell me how this crap works now?


0/10
 
2013-07-17 02:53:35 PM
PsiChick:

Fine then, let me speak to you as a person with bipolar. Please define two things for me: First, is it doing anyone, at all,  any harm to have people switch identities even ten times in a day? And second, modern science will help  how?

I can answer both questions for you: No, and 'antidepressants or antipsychotics'. Now, I take an antidepressant, and would take an antipsychotic if needed, because I would otherwise run the risk of harming myself in my depressive episodes. But  they do not function as a cure. They just  soften the urges to something managable. So if your recommendation is to put people on medications, you're just going to give them side effects that range from mild to nasty as fark, not to mention permanent on occasion, to achieve  farking nothing.

What gives you, or anyone else, the right to demand they hurt themselves via medication (yes, some of the side effects are honestly that bad, even for 'basic' meds like Symbyax,) for a condition that hurts nobody at all?


I don't know about you but that comment was as bipolar as they come.
 
2013-07-17 02:53:57 PM

Smackledorfer: Right, you understand nothing about what 'very little difference'means in terms of genetics.


Holy shiat, you're right, how could I have been so foolish as to believe that human beings are largely similar to each other and that some of the variation is not genetic in basis but rather a function of hormones. What the fark was I thinking? Never mind that I could get an XX fetus to grow a dick with the proper hormonal environment, at the chromosomal level there's a 2% difference. Hell, why do we even consider men and women to be part of the same species with such a vast gulf between the sexes?
 
2013-07-17 02:54:58 PM

thurstonxhowell: Stained Glass Shattering: "Fathers guiding their daughters to act more closely to the traditional male gender role is considered normal and even beneficial, while a boy being guided toward a traditional female role is considered emasculating, confusing, and harmful. Why is that?"

I would need to see what you bundle into the "traditional female role" descriptor before an assessment could be offered

I dug myself a hole by putting "study math" in the traditional male role. I should have stuck to play time activities. Since the traditional male role includes being a provider, it's obvious why that's encouraged. What's less obvious is why so many people would encourage a girl to go out in jeans and a tshirt and climb a tree, but never a boy to play with dollies.


Fair enough.  Personally, I don't really care with what a child chooses to play - so I'm probably coming at this from a different vantage point.  What I do have a problem with, however, is playtime as social engineering.  If a boy wants a Barbie Dream House, fine.  If  a girl wants her Tinkertoys, fine.
 
2013-07-17 02:56:17 PM

mike_d85: Monkeyhouse Zendo: GoldSpider: MechaPyx: Seriously, would you want to be brainwashed?

I bet you're with the militant deaf who oppose cochlear implants on the grounds that they are destructive to the "deaf community".

Thanks, I really didn't need to be reminded of those assholes. They can spend their lives in silence for all I care. What infuriates me is when they lobby against implants for children.

Are you guys serious? that's a farking real thing?


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3445_162-10794.html 

willfullyobscure:
Yes, i hear they LOOOOVE the males that retain their penises, cross dress and then expect to be able to hop into bed with lesbians and call the females transphobic if they don't agree to touch their "female penis". Feminists LOOOOVE it when men dress up like women and try to claim they're as oppressed as actual females.

same statement.


"cotton ceiling"
 
2013-07-17 02:57:34 PM

alice_600: I don't know about you but that comment was as bipolar as they come.


Bipolar? At ten personality shifts a day I think we're officially in bat(shiat) country.
 
2013-07-17 02:58:00 PM

Stained Glass Shattering: thurstonxhowell: Stained Glass Shattering: "Fathers guiding their daughters to act more closely to the traditional male gender role is considered normal and even beneficial, while a boy being guided toward a traditional female role is considered emasculating, confusing, and harmful. Why is that?"

I would need to see what you bundle into the "traditional female role" descriptor before an assessment could be offered

I dug myself a hole by putting "study math" in the traditional male role. I should have stuck to play time activities. Since the traditional male role includes being a provider, it's obvious why that's encouraged. What's less obvious is why so many people would encourage a girl to go out in jeans and a tshirt and climb a tree, but never a boy to play with dollies.

Fair enough.  Personally, I don't really care with what a child chooses to play - so I'm probably coming at this from a different vantage point.  What I do have a problem with, however, is playtime as social engineering.  If a boy wants a Barbie Dream House, fine.  If  a girl wants her Tinkertoys, fine.


Hell I played with transformers and He-Man as a girl granted I didn't make them fight just played UN council.
 
2013-07-17 03:02:45 PM

IAAl: I am sure that the Fark comments on an article about the gender spectrum is about the last useful place to post this but hey, why not?

Gender is not binary.

Not all people are simply Male or Female.

Regardless of how you define Male or Female, there are people who are both or neither.

If you want to go with the simplistic "is the 23rd set of chromosomes XX or XY?"  You will find that there are people with more than just two, see Aneuploidy.

If you decide to go with sex organs, there are people with both and people with neither.

Needless to say, if you go with characteristics or other physiology you see a wide range of characteristics among people that cross gender norms.

It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation.  Just because you identify strongly with one gender, and perhaps even look the part, does not mean that everyone does or that everyone identifies with either gender.



thats all well and good but the majority of women i've farked all had vaginas.
 
2013-07-17 03:03:41 PM
"Hell I played with transformers and He-Man as a girl granted I didn't make them fight just played UN council."

I must say that you did a fairly poor job of containing Skeletor's agression toward Mumm-Ra.
 
2013-07-17 03:06:26 PM
mrshowrules:
You can simplify it further.  Measures to ensure societal inclusion reduce potential violence towards those seen as excluded.

Let's debate this purely abstractly:

Historically, scapegoats have been an important and potent means of assuring group cohesion.  They result in a tighter community and have been used since time immemorial.  The terrorizing of the Helots kept Sparta together.  Athenians ostracized those who grew too big for their britches.  The Hebrews literally put all of the sins of the city onto a goat and sent it into the wilderness.

They are also strategically useful - such as giving up a subordinate to your troops to take the blame for a royal screw up.

Considering that human beings are by nature a social creature, and that our progress has not come through individuals, but individuals residing in a strong society that allows them the peace and resources to invent the wonders we have today, I put to you the following proposition:

Anger and violence towards those who are excluded does more good for the whole than it does injury to the piece.

Respond.
 
2013-07-17 03:09:51 PM

alice_600: FatPrincess: alice_600: Excuse me? Name calling now?

It's a label. No judgement; both traditional and non-traditional gender roles are workable with the right partner. But seriously, how many people do you think are actually against heterosexual sex? Sex-negative isn't about not wanting or liking sex; it's that true consent cannot be obtained from the partner who is lower in power.

Actually let me add on to this.
See here's the deal. When I was in College I learned there were two worlds. The world of Academia and the outside world.
See in Academia it's all posh and safe and cute. You eat your vegan tofu burgers and think you're gonna change the world. But once you leave the campus it's not all cute it's all horrors. You realize you can't change the world. You can't eat tofu burgers because they cost more and your doctor told you to cut down on soy foods because of the sodium content.
Then your job you thought was going to be awesome is replaced by a younger person who is as brain dead and giving blow jobs and oral sex to half the office's ceo's to get higher up than you.
The next thing you know your 75 years old 3 kids who grew up to be dead brained losers with 5 kids each from 4 differnt men and women. Who are mooching off you and your spouse because you didn't want to hurt their feelings as screaming toddlers.
So tell me how this crap works now?


The only omission I saw was how they, ironically, take up knitting and sit around the park with their ankle tatoos and compare mommy notes with others before going back home to argue about who has had to sit the kid longer that week with their so-called enlightened partner, just like the eras they rebelled against.  This leads to an open marriage because she doesn't feel attractive after giving birth and is even having gender issues about being called mom so they come up with a third term for mom and have their live in friend (polyamory booty buddy) take on the name mom in some third wheel effort so that the enlightened couple doesn't even have to care for the kid and can go out and score and drink beer 3 nights a week.  Never seen one of those around here ;)  Otherwise you knocked it out of the park and glad someone paid attention in college.  You'll make green for this, Lou. I sometimes can't believe those folks are writing books telling us how to live.  Most spend waay too much time reading and not enough actually thinking..except how to write off their behavior in a defensive slut shaming scenario.   I personally find folks with hobbies to be way more interesting than people that, as adults, are still number one concerned about their pee-pees lol.
 
2013-07-17 03:10:13 PM
This shiat always has and always will be mental masturbation for busybodies who can't manage to get organized to fix issues that actually farking matter and would rather focus on window dressing.

shiat like this is what makes the developing world hate us. We've solved so many actual problems that now we are creating meaningless ones to focus on instead of helping others. Heaven forbid this energy was used on a more useful endeavor like clean drinking water around the world instead of making sure we don't hurt some over-indulged douchebag's feelings.
 
2013-07-17 03:10:51 PM
"Let's debate this purely abstractly: etc...."

Question begging overload.
 
2013-07-17 03:17:00 PM

vygramul: Scrotastic Method: I'm going to take this as nonsense without a link to a valid, substantive medical study.

Your reaction seems to suggest it would have significant impact. Is that true? I'll provide the link in a little bit - I just want to know if this means your opinion is going to change.


I just want to see from where you derived your way too simple point. I can't say what it might do to me without reading it first. But it sounds like horse doo-doo.

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Smackledorfer: Right, you understand nothing about what 'very little difference'means in terms of genetics.

Holy shiat, you're right, how could I have been so foolish as to believe that human beings are largely similar to each other and that some of the variation is not genetic in basis but rather a function of hormones.


"That DNA looks human."

upload.wikimedia.org

Ridiculed for a reason.

alice_600: Agreed Its just guys falling for the romanticized aspect of being female. If they ever had to have a period or give birth they would run screaming the other direction.


I like that. As a straight dude I need to not say too much more, but that's a good call.
 
2013-07-17 03:17:48 PM

Lunchlady: shiat like this is what makes the developing world hate us. We've solved so many actual problems that now we are creating meaningless ones to focus on instead of helping others. Heaven forbid this energy was used on a more useful endeavor like clean drinking water around the world instead of making sure we don't hurt some over-indulged douchebag's feelings.


I have been informed via this thread the the suffering of that douchebag at being referred to by an unwanted gender pronoun is as valid and deserving of time and resources as a child who gets on meal a day, or a woman who walks seven miles every morning to obtain fresh water. I understand your desire to put their pain in some sort of larger context but today I've learned that to ignore or minimize his suffering is literally a hate crime.
 
2013-07-17 03:17:49 PM
That's it. I'm just going to stay inside from now on.
 
2013-07-17 03:24:53 PM

Scrotastic Method: "That DNA looks human."


Beaker: "Dude, check it out, this DNA strand has fifty adjacent gene complexes which are the same as gene complexes specific to humans and the histone protein is farking identical."
Honeydew: "I think we just lost the audience."
 
2013-07-17 03:32:23 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Scrotastic Method: "That DNA looks human."

Beaker: "Dude, check it out, this DNA strand has fifty adjacent gene complexes which are the same as gene complexes specific to humans and the histone protein is farking identical."
Honeydew: "I think we just lost the audience."


I knew political correctness had gone too far during the OJ trial when they said they had a hair from an African American. I mean, I know DNA can tell race, but nationality?
 
2013-07-17 03:36:18 PM

Scrotastic Method: Mock26: Scrotastic Method: /we're born. That's it. Nobody's meant to be anything else. Make the best of what you have, be happy. Trying to change it is, at best, wearing a costume and, at worst, living a lie to yourself.

Wise words.  Or rather, they would be wise words if everything was simplyl black and white and there was no ambiguity with a person's gender and/or sex.

Born with a penis? You're male. Born with a vagina? Female. That's pretty black and white. Are you homosexual? Separate issue. Are you one of the one in every few billion humans with a legitimate gender mutation? Sure, there are considerations there. But if you just think you're "supposed" to have been something different, well then, what's the foundational argument -- your soul is in the wrong body? You didn't get what you want? The first of those is nonsense and the second is a too-bad-for-you problem.

It's like this no-gluten crap. Do some people have celiac disease? Absolutely. Very, very few people, but some. Do you ever see complaints about gluten allergies in developing, third-world, or even lower-class situations? Of course not. Were our grandparents worried about it? Has it come up in past generations as a basic concern of humanity? No. It's a burden of free time, a problem of convenience, or a sign of mental illness to start pondering your "true gender identity" or some such nonsense.


Let me guess, you think homosexuals choose to be that way, right?
 
2013-07-17 03:36:42 PM

vygramul: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Scrotastic Method: "That DNA looks human."

Beaker: "Dude, check it out, this DNA strand has fifty adjacent gene complexes which are the same as gene complexes specific to humans and the histone protein is farking identical."
Honeydew: "I think we just lost the audience."

I knew political correctness had gone too far during the OJ trial when they said they had a hair from an African American. I mean, I know DNA can tell race, but nationality?


So some Egyptian guy did it?
 
2013-07-17 03:45:14 PM
It's kinda worrying how many people are willing to take a collosal shiat all over the TG community based off the actions of some idiots on tumblr/in academia.
 
2013-07-17 03:46:13 PM

vygramul: I knew political correctness had gone too far during the OJ trial when they said they had a hair from an African American. I mean, I know DNA can tell race, but nationality?


If there ain't no fro, you must let him go!
 
2013-07-17 03:46:40 PM

Quinsisdos: It's kinda worrying how many people are willing to take a collosal shiat all over the TG community based off the actions of some idiots on tumblr/in academia.


It's nothing to do with the TG community.  This is about snowflakes.
 
2013-07-17 03:54:02 PM

Quinsisdos: It's kinda worrying how many people are willing to take a collosal shiat all over the TG community based off the actions of some idiots on tumblr/in academia.


To a certain extent this is why I question whether personal gender pronouns are a good strategy for improving TG acceptance. Implying that people need to use a completely separate set of pronouns strikes me as increasing the chance that TGs will be perceived as "the other" rather than simply emphasizing that TGs are people too. I know it sounds like concern trolling but I know how I react to it and I have no problem with transgender people (although, being old, I apparently have the bad manners to refer to them as trannies).
 
2013-07-17 03:54:46 PM

Scrotastic Method: It's like this no-gluten crap. Do some people have celiac disease? Absolutely. Very, very few people, but some. Do you ever see complaints about gluten allergies in developing, third-world, or even lower-class situations? Of course not. Were our grandparents worried about it? Has it come up in past generations as a basic concern of humanity? No. It's a burden of free time, a problem of convenience, or a sign of mental illness to start pondering your "true gender identity" or some such nonsense.


Because they die in infancy due to malnutrition from gluten. At the time or place, it's just the high rate of infant mortality.
 
2013-07-17 04:12:13 PM

The Muthaship: This is about snowflakes.


TG snowflakes. Too many kids getting burned after giving too much assistance to others who play WOW with the wrong gender toon.
 
2013-07-17 04:14:21 PM

Public Savant: Show me your drivers license.
Whatever it says, that I'll call you.

If you cannot convince the DWV, then you cannot convince me.


That must lead to some awkward conversations.

New Guy:  Hi, I'm new here.  Call me Bill.
Public:  Let's see your driver's license.
New Guy:  What?
Public:  Your driver's license
New Guy.:  Are you from Human Resource or something?
Public:  I want to know what to call you.
New Guy:  You can't just call me Bill?
Public:  Of course not
New Guy:  Well here (shows license)
Public:  Aha, it says "William" on your license.  I'll have to call you William.  Calling you Bill would force me to accept your lifestyle choice.
New Guy:  FIne, whatever.  What does it say on your license?
Public:  It's says Public.  You may call me Pubic
New Guy:  I think I'll just stick with "Asshole" like everybody else.
 
2013-07-17 04:18:51 PM
Stupid question here...but when dealing with a food server, how often do you deal with pronouns when referring to them?

I am having the beef, she is having the fish, can you bring me the check?
 
2013-07-17 04:23:36 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: alice_600: I don't know about you but that comment was as bipolar as they come.

Bipolar? At ten personality shifts a day I think we're officially in bat(shiat) country.


Because clearly, nobody in the history of ever has been annoyed at a stupid comment that, once again, supports forcing mentally ill people to endure hellish consequences because some random asshole is mildly annoyed at the THOUGHT of someone being different than them. This is the second thread where someone's done this--you think it's not annoying to watch people advocating farking around with their fellow human beings because they're too  lazy to learn a few new vocabulary words? That's the least bipolar thing I've done all day.
 
2013-07-17 04:32:01 PM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Lunchlady: shiat like this is what makes the developing world hate us. We've solved so many actual problems that now we are creating meaningless ones to focus on instead of helping others. Heaven forbid this energy was used on a more useful endeavor like clean drinking water around the world instead of making sure we don't hurt some over-indulged douchebag's feelings.

I have been informed via this thread the the suffering of that douchebag at being referred to by an unwanted gender pronoun is as valid and deserving of time and resources as a child who gets on meal a day, or a woman who walks seven miles every morning to obtain fresh water. I understand your desire to put their pain in some sort of larger context but today I've learned that to ignore or minimize his suffering is literally a hate crime.


The more time people spend being nice to transexuals, the less food farmers produce and truckers can distribute.

Makes sense.
 
2013-07-17 04:33:07 PM

BizarreMan: Stupid question here...but when dealing with a food server, how often do you deal with pronouns when referring to them?

I am having the beef, she is having the fish, can you bring me the check?


Usually, only when the service breaks down.

"If you see my waiter, can you send her over?"

"I just gave the other guy my drink order."

"He just went to get the A-1."

"Tell the bartender he forgot my lime."

It happens.
 
2013-07-17 04:33:09 PM

Stained Glass Shattering: "Hell I played with transformers and He-Man as a girl granted I didn't make them fight just played UN council."

I must say that you did a fairly poor job of containing Skeletor's agression toward Mumm-Ra.


What did I know I was 4 and I never had to deal with a gay skeleton wizard before.
 
2013-07-17 04:35:05 PM

Mock26: Scrotastic Method: Mock26: Scrotastic Method: /we're born. That's it. Nobody's meant to be anything else. Make the best of what you have, be happy. Trying to change it is, at best, wearing a costume and, at worst, living a lie to yourself.

Wise words.  Or rather, they would be wise words if everything was simplyl black and white and there was no ambiguity with a person's gender and/or sex.

Born with a penis? You're male. Born with a vagina? Female. That's pretty black and white. Are you homosexual? Separate issue. Are you one of the one in every few billion humans with a legitimate gender mutation? Sure, there are considerations there. But if you just think you're "supposed" to have been something different, well then, what's the foundational argument -- your soul is in the wrong body? You didn't get what you want? The first of those is nonsense and the second is a too-bad-for-you problem.

It's like this no-gluten crap. Do some people have celiac disease? Absolutely. Very, very few people, but some. Do you ever see complaints about gluten allergies in developing, third-world, or even lower-class situations? Of course not. Were our grandparents worried about it? Has it come up in past generations as a basic concern of humanity? No. It's a burden of free time, a problem of convenience, or a sign of mental illness to start pondering your "true gender identity" or some such nonsense.

Let me guess, you think homosexuals choose to be that way, right?


Nope but some people don't know any better.
 
2013-07-17 04:39:54 PM

PsiChick: You think it's not annoying to watch people advocating farking around with their fellow human beings because they're too  lazy to learn a few new vocabulary words? That's the least bipolar thing I've done all day.


So...um...yeah it appears to be only you on this on woman/man/trans am thank you ma'am campaign.
 
2013-07-17 04:40:33 PM

BizarreMan: Stupid question here...but when dealing with a food server, how often do you deal with pronouns when referring to them?

I am having the beef, she is having the fish, can you bring me the check?


Food service is a social ritual. TFA's scope is much wider. You are hitting on someone you find attractive at the bar/supermarket. Do you think they should disclose if they are transsexual immediately? As soon as they realize you are initiating a mating ritual? Second date?
 
2013-07-17 04:46:03 PM
PsiChick:

I do not have bipolar disorder myself. I have however, lived with two different people with this disorder.

It is called 'disorder' for a reason - it is different from the way the body and brain normally function. If you truly do suffer from depressive episodes as one does with this disorder, I do not believe for one moment that you would wish these on your mortal enemy. During an episode, a person's brain is simply not functioning correctly and things just do not make sense. There are indeed medications out there which can help lessen the frequency and severity of these attacks, and if your medication does not completely eliminate these symptoms, I hope that you do not actively campaign against their use by others who suffer from the same symptoms. A great many people have been helped by some of thes drugs, although many have had to try several different drugs, as well as adjust the dosage until they find what works for them.
By this same token, if a person is undergoing frequent and irregular changes in something so innate to their own psyche as their gender identity, and of such severity that they become offended at others for failing to notice the change and referring to them by the correct pronoun of the day (or even hour), would you not say that something is not right here? And would you not want that person to get help, whether through medication or counseling?
 
2013-07-17 04:52:39 PM

halB: mrshowrules:
You can simplify it further.  Measures to ensure societal inclusion reduce potential violence towards those seen as excluded.

Let's debate this purely abstractly:

Historically, scapegoats have been an important and potent means of assuring group cohesion.  They result in a tighter community and have been used since time immemorial.  The terrorizing of the Helots kept Sparta together.  Athenians ostracized those who grew too big for their britches.  The Hebrews literally put all of the sins of the city onto a goat and sent it into the wilderness.

They are also strategically useful - such as giving up a subordinate to your troops to take the blame for a royal screw up.

Considering that human beings are by nature a social creature, and that our progress has not come through individuals, but individuals residing in a strong society that allows them the peace and resources to invent the wonders we have today, I put to you the following proposition:

Anger and violence towards those who are excluded does more good for the whole than it does injury to the piece.

Respond.


You raise a valid point regarding group cohesion.  I guess it is more of a form of partial exclusion.  They are still a member of the community.  So perhaps I'm choosing the wrong term.  Maybe it is more a case of stigmatization.

So let me rephrase:

Measures to ensure social acceptance reduce potential violence towards those stigmatized as different.

So the question is if a certain degree of bullying results in a net reduction in suffering/violence overall.  Cohesiveness and relationships between the "in crowd" might be stronger.  Not sure.  However, if you are going to stigmatize people it would seem to be a better idea to stigmatize people based on their character or values as opposed to how they are born.  If the group needs to pick on someone for the sake of cohesiveness, they should do this based on them been a terrible person or lazy.  At least that way you have an incentive for improve yourself  and therefore the group as a whole.

So even if excluding/stigmatizing someone is beneficial is some ways, doing this based on something they have no control over would still be a bad idea.
 
2013-07-17 05:03:05 PM

ox45tallboy: PsiChick:

I do not have bipolar disorder myself. I have however, lived with two different people with this disorder.

It is called 'disorder' for a reason - it is different from the way the body and brain normally function. If you truly do suffer from depressive episodes as one does with this disorder, I do not believe for one moment that you would wish these on your mortal enemy. During an episode, a person's brain is simply not functioning correctly and things just do not make sense. There are indeed medications out there which can help lessen the frequency and severity of these attacks, and if your medication does not completely eliminate these symptoms, I hope that you do not actively campaign against their use by others who suffer from the same symptoms. A great many people have been helped by some of thes drugs, although many have had to try several different drugs, as well as adjust the dosage until they find what works for them.
By this same token, if a person is undergoing frequent and irregular changes in something so innate to their own psyche as their gender identity, and of such severity that they become offended at others for failing to notice the change and referring to them by the correct pronoun of the day (or even hour), would you not say that something is not right here? And would you not want that person to get help, whether through medication or counseling?


Is it bothering  them, or just you? Because believe it or not, my bipolar  does bother me...but that doesn't mean that Gender Identity Disorder, even to the extreme you're mentioning, bothers  them, or even unduly annoys people around them, especially given that even  I get annoyed at how people utterly, point-blank refuse to use the correct pronoun even for people who have had gender reassignment surgery.

The four D's of diagnostics: Deviant, Distressing, Dysfunctional, with optional of Dangerous. I'll grant that this disorder is deviant, but dysfunctional, or distressing to anyone other than the 'YOU MUST REMAIN YOUR BIRTH GENDER!!!11!' crowd? Ha. You're funny.

/And why the fark would you think I wouldn't advocate meds for people who actually need them? I mentioned already that for some people, like me, it's just point-blank necessary.
 
2013-07-17 05:05:12 PM

Badgers: [i.imgur.com image 202x265]


where's British Nancy
 
2013-07-17 05:15:29 PM
Ugh,  if you don't like certain gender specific pronouns to be used than simply ask that you be addressed and referred to by your proper name or title.
 
2013-07-17 05:17:14 PM
Think of it as a LARP session.  Today in the office, I'm a 6-headed hermaphroditic halfling/dwarf weredragon lesbian princess.  And yes, each head gets a different pronoun, and I'll be very offended if anyone farks it up.  I might even cast +4 bee swarm breath from head #4 with pronouns xvi/xvir/xvis.
 
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