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(NPR)   Hello, and welcome to Olive Garden. My name is Snowflake, and I'll be your genderqueer postgrad waitron this evening. I'll tell you our specials in a moment, but first, let me tell you that my preferred gender pronoun for tonight is   (npr.org) divider line 731
    More: Stupid, Olive Garden, Oberlin College, homeless youth, students' association, snowflakes, graduate schools, genders  
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21132 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2013 at 6:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-17 11:54:25 AM  

Bontesla: The couches are traditionally in a room separate from the stalls. It's like a waiting area.


How boring.  Give me a good three toilet couch any day.
 
2013-07-17 11:54:50 AM  
Sweden has introduced a gender neutral third person singular pronoun has seen reduced hate crime.
 
2013-07-17 11:54:59 AM  

Maggie_Luna: Your friend was failed by her parents? I'm pretty sure those issues would have come in at puberty as not normal and s/he should have gone to the fracking doctor to make sure s/he wasn't experiencing something very abnormal, didn't have funky genetics, etc. Growing a full beard at puberty isn't normal for most women and unless your family has a history of ultra hairy gals then yeah, I think s/he was failed.


They didn't want to deal with it and even to this day she is afraid to tell them anything about anything. She ran away very young because of this. They love her and her them but it's that kind of ignoring the issue that has forced the people in the article into this somewhat odd behavior. If it wasn't a big deal and they felt accepted in the first place I doubt we'd have this level of pushback.

She has broken down in tears many times talking to me about this stuff because she so rarely gets to express herself to anyone.
 
2013-07-17 11:55:05 AM  
If everyone started using non-gender specific pronouns right ow, these people would find some new thing to be "oppressed" about by tomorrow.

/if everyone is special then no one is
 
2013-07-17 11:55:27 AM  

MechaPyx: Joe Blowme: GoldSpider: Are there any advocacy groups trying to raise money to cure the brain defect that mixes up a person's personality and physical gender characteristics?  Because that would make a lot more sense than gender reassignment surgeries and social engineering.

THIS

No thanks.

Seriously, would you want to be brainwashed?


I believe he was talking medically, like curing cancer or male pattern baldness... not ONLY send them to therapy. Has to be some wires crossed like with autism or  other genetic mutations

/no, not like the "gay conversion" therapy
 
2013-07-17 11:56:08 AM  

FatPrincess: Sweden has introduced a gender neutral third person singular pronoun has seen reduced hate crime.


t2.gstatic.com
 
2013-07-17 11:57:15 AM  

Theaetetus: Monkeyhouse Zendo: I have watched people dither over issues of social discomfort while they ignore others who live in hunger and want.

Like, say, people who post in a Fark thread rather than working at their local shelter?


At the office at the moment earning the money I donate to the local shelter for battered women and use to purchase canned food for the quarterly charity drives.

Look, I get that you want to make me the villain for considering the issue of gendered pronouns a triviality. It clearly marks me as a monster with no concern for my fellow man that I consider personal gender pronouns to be narcissistic. I'll stick to hunger and poverty and leave the big issues of pronoun use to the real social justice warriors. How's that?
 
2013-07-17 11:57:25 AM  

here to help: Maggie_Luna: Your friend was failed by her parents? I'm pretty sure those issues would have come in at puberty as not normal and s/he should have gone to the fracking doctor to make sure s/he wasn't experiencing something very abnormal, didn't have funky genetics, etc. Growing a full beard at puberty isn't normal for most women and unless your family has a history of ultra hairy gals then yeah, I think s/he was failed.

They didn't want to deal with it and even to this day she is afraid to tell them anything about anything. She ran away very young because of this. They love her and her them but it's that kind of ignoring the issue that has forced the people in the article into this somewhat odd behavior. If it wasn't a big deal and they felt accepted in the first place I doubt we'd have this level of pushback.

She has broken down in tears many times talking to me about this stuff because she so rarely gets to express herself to anyone.


Oh and it severely affected her health later in life. She's had to have surgeries because of what the chemical imbalances and pathetic attempts by doctors prescribing sh*tty drugs did to her body. She is however much healthier now that she is getting proper treatment.
 
2013-07-17 11:58:16 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: mrshowrules:Perhaps you don't realize how significant an issue gender identity is because you are secure in your identity.

Perhaps you don't realize that while I recognize gender dysphoria causes mental suffering I tend to rank suffering in terms of intensity. I have watched people dither over issues of social discomfort while they ignore others who live in hunger and want. Maybe that's not everyone who complains that they don't like the current set of gendered pronouns but it has certainly been my experience of them: well fed, comfortable, secure but driven to stamp out that last bit of discomfort before considering that others may be experiencing more acute and life threatening suffering.

I don't deny that they suffer. I simply view the pain of an unwanted pronoun to be like complaining that you have a splinter in your thumb and that once you have it out you'll turn your attention the person on fire.

Empathy is ability to understand other people's suffering even if you do not have direct experience with it.

What makes you think I don't understand the discomfort of a pronoun one doesn't fully identify with? Is it that I don't immediately leap assuage that pain?


The point is not the pronoun solution, it is that people are thinking/talking about it.  The empathy itself is the point of the exercise.  What comes out of might be important/significant but that it is happening is cool in and of itself.

Looking after people (hunger/shelter) works outwards from one's family, community, city etc.. etc..

The school and campus is seen as the student's community.  No one is freezing or starving to death in that community.  There are issues of rape, racial discrimination, bullying and yes the suffering associated with gender identity.  That someone is talking about this issues is cool.  I have no idea why this would bother anyone.

Having this discussion does not exclude working on more serious societal problems.  Empathy is like a muscle, it is not strained by overuse, it becomes stronger with use.
 
2013-07-17 11:58:47 AM  
My grandmother had a name for these people, "confused."

 I think it still summarizes it well.   Life doesn't always give you what you want.  Sorry.  I'm sorry if you are born with a penis and don't want it.  Life sucks.  Deal with it.
 
2013-07-17 12:00:12 PM  

pkellmey: It's similar to someone having a name that is usually mispronounced. It's annoying, but I can't see much suffering past that.


I know, right? My last name is very similar to the most common last name of an entirely different ethnicity. Every time I am referred to by the incorrect name I feel as if my ethnicity, nay, very identity has come into question.
 
2013-07-17 12:00:54 PM  

Sean M: My grandmother had a name for these people, "confused."

 I think it still summarizes it well.   Life doesn't always give you what you want.  Sorry.  I'm sorry if you are born with a penis and don't want it.  Life sucks.  Deal with it in the way that I insist you deal with it, rather than exercising one of the many options available to you.


FTFY.
 
2013-07-17 12:01:00 PM  
Sometimes for the benefit of society as a whole, the strong need to weed out the weak.
 
2013-07-17 12:02:43 PM  

Sean M: My grandmother had a name for these people, "confused."

I think it still summarizes it well. Life doesn't always give you what you want. Sorry. I'm sorry if you are born with a penis and don't want it. Life sucks. Deal with it.


So if someone is born with a heart defect or a parasitic twin are they "confused" as well? Should be told to just "deal with it"? In the case of many transgender people there is an abnormality that is very physical and very real and has significant health related consequences.
 
2013-07-17 12:03:45 PM  

mrshowrules: The point is not the pronoun solution, it is that people are thinking/talking about it.  The empathy itself is the point of the exercise.  What comes out of might be important/significant but that it is happening is cool in and of itself.


So the plan is to build empathy by being generally annoying? Have you really thought this through? I know the old axiom that "any publicity is good publicity" but I'm not certain that applies to every situation.
 
2013-07-17 12:03:57 PM  

here to help: here to help: Maggie_Luna: Your friend was failed by her parents? I'm pretty sure those issues would have come in at puberty as not normal and s/he should have gone to the fracking doctor to make sure s/he wasn't experiencing something very abnormal, didn't have funky genetics, etc. Growing a full beard at puberty isn't normal for most women and unless your family has a history of ultra hairy gals then yeah, I think s/he was failed.

They didn't want to deal with it and even to this day she is afraid to tell them anything about anything. She ran away very young because of this. They love her and her them but it's that kind of ignoring the issue that has forced the people in the article into this somewhat odd behavior. If it wasn't a big deal and they felt accepted in the first place I doubt we'd have this level of pushback.

She has broken down in tears many times talking to me about this stuff because she so rarely gets to express herself to anyone.

Oh and it severely affected her health later in life. She's had to have surgeries because of what the chemical imbalances and pathetic attempts by doctors prescribing sh*tty drugs did to her body. She is however much healthier now that she is getting proper treatment.


So she was failed by her parents.  Hormonal/health problems is hardly compared to this issue though, I'm pretty sure most of these people are special snowflakes. Choose a gender pronoun/name if you must and dress as you wish
 
2013-07-17 12:04:05 PM  

Sean M: My grandmother had a name for these people, "confused."

 I think it still summarizes it well.   Life doesn't always give you what you want.  Sorry.  I'm sorry if you are born with a penis and don't want it.  Life sucks.  Deal with it.


How very radical feminist of you.
 
2013-07-17 12:06:05 PM  

Theaetetus: pkellmey: It's similar to someone having a name that is usually mispronounced. It's annoying, but I can't see much suffering past that.

I'd suggest it's more similar to an Asian person being called Latino or vice versa. But that said, that's just the initial step...

Reasonable exchange:
"Hello, Mr. Johnson."
"That's Ms. Johnson."
"Oh, sorry, Ms. Johnson."

Unreasonable exchange, but apparently common, judging by this thread:
"Hello, Mr. Johnson."
"That's Ms. Johnson."
"No, it's Mr. Johnson, and how dare you attempt to force me to change my preconceptions! You're the real bigot here, not me. How about I just call you a narcissistic asshole instead?"


Strangely, the second is not that uncommon. My family all called me Miss when I was young, though I dressed and acted like a boy most of the time. Strangers could say something as simple as "thank you, sir" if I held the door for them (I'm southern, it's courtesy) and if I dared say aloud "that's ma'am, please" . . . they'd blow a gasket. How dare a little girl wear a baseball cap and have a pony tail sticking out the back of it (I was a ball fan before the strike, and sure, that style might give a few clues to my age). Then they'd lay in on what ever family I was with, for daring to allow . . .

So, while most of the world wants to believe that things should fall into the first category, a good many people intentionally drag it into the second.
 
2013-07-17 12:06:20 PM  

here to help: So if someone is born with a heart defect or a parasitic twin are they "confused" as well?


People with heart defects and / or parasitic twins are upset about gendered pronoun use? Okay I guess but since both of those are actual medical problems and possibly life threatening I'd actually suggest that they see a doctor rather than a linguist.
 
2013-07-17 12:07:53 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: CowardlyLion: English is generally lacking in useful gender-neutral pronouns. This is not a new thing or a sudden fad, much less an indication of people somehow being stupid (it's kind of the exact opposite--people are aware of things that they don't readily have words for and want to make words to describe them rather than fumbling with imprecise language). People have tried to make up for that shortcoming for centuries. If someone manages to make broadly-accepted, new, gender-neutral pronouns, that would be wonderful.

As I said before "it" works as does "their". People don't like "it" because historically we've used "it" for objects which the language considers genderless but he and she for people which we view as gendered. If one wants to be viewed as gender neutral, "it" is the proper pronoun.

You want to know English really needs? A you inclusive.


Okay, so, if you're already well aware of the problems with existing English pronouns, I'm not sure why you think it's stupid for people to want pronouns to address unmet needs of English-speakers.
 
2013-07-17 12:08:39 PM  

Quinsisdos: How very radical feminist of you.


Radical feminists are big fans of MTF transexuals. Once you've had the penis you've been tainted with privilege and, conversely, privileged with a taint, I guess.
 
2013-07-17 12:09:07 PM  

here to help: Sean M: My grandmother had a name for these people, "confused."

I think it still summarizes it well. Life doesn't always give you what you want. Sorry. I'm sorry if you are born with a penis and don't want it. Life sucks. Deal with it.

So if someone is born with a heart defect or a parasitic twin are they "confused" as well? Should be told to just "deal with it"? In the case of many transgender people there is an abnormality that is very physical and very real and has significant health related consequences.


So it can be cured with modern medicine, that's a relief. Do you want to tell them or should i? Someone should sop we can get them to the hospital or Dr. office and get them fixed.
 
2013-07-17 12:10:13 PM  

Maggie_Luna: I'm pretty sure most of these people are special snowflakes.


Makes it easier to dismiss them that way, right? Your attitude only makes their actions more necessary. Doesn't matter anyway. It's their generation and they are choosing what kind of world they want to live in. It really has nothing to do with you.
 
2013-07-17 12:10:37 PM  

GoldSpider: Are there any advocacy groups trying to raise money to cure the brain defect that mixes up a person's personality and physical gender characteristics?  Because that would make a lot more sense than gender reassignment surgeries and social engineering.


I would happily raise money for that. 

CowardlyLion: Monkeyhouse Zendo: CowardlyLion: Thanks for totally clearing that up with your brilliant explanation.

The referenced statement "...a new generation of young people is..." implies that insistence on personal pronouns is a fad among younger people. This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population. The implication is that since "young people" are obsessed with these trivialities, they are an example of successive generations getting dumber which was the core premise of Idiocracy.

...so where exactly is there any information about what young people want or think in that quote?

English is generally lacking in useful gender-neutral pronouns. This is not a new thing or a sudden fad, much less an indication of people somehow being stupid (it's kind of the exact opposite--people are aware of things that they don't readily have words for and want to make words to describe them rather than fumbling with imprecise language). People have tried to make up for that shortcoming for centuries. If someone manages to make broadly-accepted, new, gender-neutral pronouns, that would be wonderful.


I think people think Portlandia is really a documentary.
 
2013-07-17 12:10:52 PM  
Snowflake?

O.K, I'll do it:

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com

YEAH!
 
2013-07-17 12:12:14 PM  
 
2013-07-17 12:13:05 PM  
Maggie_Luna:

If you really want to help your friend get her check out at a doctor's office before she has cancer.
 
2013-07-17 12:13:28 PM  

Yogimus: And they wonder why they earn less...


Are you saying that if I start wearing button-downs and trousers to work that I will get a raise?
 
2013-07-17 12:15:08 PM  

alice_600: Maggie_Luna:

If you really want to help your friend get her check out at a doctor's office before she has cancer.


It was my friend and yes... that is exactly what has been going on. She was at extremely high risk for cancer because of this sh*t. Now she is not.
 
2013-07-17 12:15:37 PM  

MechaPyx: Seriously, would you want to be brainwashed?


I bet you're with the militant deaf who oppose cochlear implants on the grounds that they are destructive to the "deaf community".
 
2013-07-17 12:15:39 PM  

CowardlyLion: Okay, so, if you're already well aware of the problems with existing English pronouns, I'm not sure why you think it's stupid for people to want pronouns to address unmet needs of English-speakers.


I consider the underlying motivation to be narcissism. This isn't an issue of a man identifying as a women because we have a pronoun for that: her. This isn't an issue of a women identifying as a man because we have a pronoun for that: her.

This is an issue for people who dislike the idea of identifying as any gender for any fixed length of time. It is a vanishingly small group of people clamoring that language be fundamentally modified to suit them. I recognize that they're unhappy with language but until a significant number of people have their brains transplanted into genderless robot bodies I consider their complaint to be a triviality.
 
2013-07-17 12:17:09 PM  

alice_600: I think people think Portlandia is really a documentary.


This thread isn't doing much to change that.
 
2013-07-17 12:17:38 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I consider the underlying motivation to be narcissism. This isn't an issue of a man identifying as a women because we have a pronoun for that: her. This isn't an issue of a women identifying as a man because we have a pronoun for that: her.


I consider it narcissistic of you to insist that they use the pronouns you deem proper. It has nothing to do with you. Literally nothing.
 
2013-07-17 12:19:39 PM  

GoldSpider: MechaPyx: Seriously, would you want to be brainwashed?

I bet you're with the militant deaf who oppose cochlear implants on the grounds that they are destructive to the "deaf community".


Thanks, I really didn't need to be reminded of those assholes. They can spend their lives in silence for all I care. What infuriates me is when they lobby against implants for children.
 
2013-07-17 12:19:41 PM  

FatPrincess: Monkeyhouse Zendo: FatPrincess: Giving bigots a model for social communication with non-binary gender presenting individuals would help reduce violence.

Why should I let you hand wave your assertion away as "it's complicated"?

Okay, I'm just winging it here so I'll consider all criticism as constructive.

In the formation of community we inquire about his or her relationship to it and to others' participation. Membership in a community requires identification and a common symbol system. Non-conforming individuals who physically reside in the community risk dehumanization, threats, and depersonalization into stereotypical caricatures as bigots try to police the cultural norms. Discussing a scheme of social interactions such as gender neutral pronouns will raise the sociological hierarchy of bigots from behavior and action, such as punching and kicking, to social relation where they instead have a framework for integrating the transsexual as a community member instead of bashing them.


Wow! How bigoted of you to point that out. Let me guess you also believe in thin privilege and that heterosexual anything is rape. So what else did you blindly believe in your women's studies classes taught by your hysterically insane professor?
 
2013-07-17 12:20:41 PM  

here to help: Maggie_Luna: I'm pretty sure most of these people are special snowflakes.

Makes it easier to dismiss them that way, right? Your attitude only makes their actions more necessary. Doesn't matter anyway. It's their generation and they are choosing what kind of world they want to live in. It really has nothing to do with you.


Those people are in my generation,dude. There is a point though where 'movements' take the wrong turn and into stupidity.  I'm not going to argue with someone who has their righteous stick so far up their bum they're unwilling to see other perspectives.  I never said it had to do with me but I'm expressing my opinion on my view just as you are.

I am honestly believing these people are mostly narcissistic and entitled or just want to be 'different'. We all went through a phase of some sort for that.
 
2013-07-17 12:20:55 PM  

GoldSpider: Smackledorfer: Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.

Yep, it is the lgbt civil rights movement that destroys our ability to do math and science jobs for less money than a company can hire someone in china to do.

Truly you understand world economics and international business models.

Why not respond to his argument instead of deliberately mischaracterizing it in order to put him on the defensive?


How did I mischaracterize it?
 
2013-07-17 12:21:10 PM  

here to help: Monkeyhouse Zendo: I consider the underlying motivation to be narcissism. This isn't an issue of a man identifying as a women because we have a pronoun for that: her. This isn't an issue of a women identifying as a man because we have a pronoun for that: her.

I consider it narcissistic of you to insist that they use the pronouns you deem proper. It has nothing to do with you. Literally nothing.


The english language is narcissistic, who knew.

I am sure the world would be a better place it we began every interaction with a couple sentences on how we would like to be refered to rather than take these offensive titles that language is trying to force us into.
 
2013-07-17 12:21:40 PM  

here to help: Monkeyhouse Zendo: I consider the underlying motivation to be narcissism. This isn't an issue of a man identifying as a women because we have a pronoun for that: her. This isn't an issue of a women identifying as a man because we have a pronoun for that: her.

I consider it narcissistic of you to insist that they use the pronouns you deem proper. It has nothing to do with you. Literally nothing.


They can use whatever pronouns they want. I'm going to stick to standard english.
 
2013-07-17 12:22:14 PM  

CowardlyLion: Okay, so, if you're already well aware of the problems with existing English pronouns


What exactly is wrong with singular they for gender-neutral pronouns? It's got a long, well-established history of English usage... Christ, Shakespeare even used it! It works perfectly well, and I see no needs it's not fulfilling which would be better served by newly invented bullshiat words like "zee", "zim", and "zer"...
 
2013-07-17 12:23:18 PM  

liam76: I am sure the world would be a better place it we began every interaction with a couple sentences on how we would like to be refered to rather than take these offensive titles that language is trying to force us into.


Language is a protocol for communicating meaning. Can you imagine if we had to do protocol negotiation before every conversational exchange?
 
2013-07-17 12:23:25 PM  

Smackledorfer: How did I mischaracterize it?


As an attack on the LGBT community, for starters.
 
2013-07-17 12:24:31 PM  
this is what happens when you have fifty years of people sitting around in universities thinking up worthless nonsense.
 
2013-07-17 12:25:08 PM  

incrdbil: I'm fed up with this transgendered BS. you are what you were born as. Surgery is not the answer--professional mental health. If you were born with boy parts, you are male. If you have girl parts, female. There is nothign wrong with you. You are great as you are, and do not need to multilate your body (or make everyone else join in your delusion).   There's a very few genetic abnormalities that result in a miniscule percentage being born with some combination of male/female sexual characteristics and those are the few that may indeed need surgery, if they wish, but that is no reason to suddenly pretend gender is a choice. Deal with it. What farking idiocy....


That's just like your opinion MAN.
 
2013-07-17 12:26:22 PM  

here to help: alice_600: Maggie_Luna:

If you really want to help your friend get her check out at a doctor's office before she has cancer.

It was my friend and yes... that is exactly what has been going on. She was at extremely high risk for cancer because of this sh*t. Now she is not.


She isn't your friend any more?
 
2013-07-17 12:27:22 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Perhaps you don't realize that while I recognize gender dysphoria causes mental suffering I tend to rank suffering in terms of intensity. I have watched people dither over issues of social discomfort while they ignore others who live in hunger and want. Maybe that's not everyone who complains that they don't like the current set of gendered pronouns but it has certainly been my experience of them: well fed, comfortable, secure but driven to stamp out that last bit of discomfort before considering that others may be experiencing more acute and life threatening suffering.


While anyone with the intellect of even a damaged toadstool would recognize that you are clearly correct, and your foes clearly mistaken, in your current conflict, I believe you should ask yourself the same question: of all the people with their priorities misplaced whom you might correct, are these internet tranny-white-knighters really the ones you want to waste your time on? Even if you convince them that saving lives is more important than saving hurt feelings, it's unlikely that they will ever act on it. But then again you're probably at work, so...
 
2013-07-17 12:31:27 PM  

pacified: this is what happens when you have fifty years of people sitting around in universities thinking up worthless nonsense.


I think that Noam Chomsky pretty much nailed it:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzrHwDOlTt8;t=5m45s
 
2013-07-17 12:31:50 PM  
"I reject the gender binary as an oppressive move by the dominant culture. "

They're on to us!
 
2013-07-17 12:32:47 PM  
How can one not have better things to do with their time than sit around and figure out how to be offended?
 
2013-07-17 12:33:16 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: here to help: Monkeyhouse Zendo: I consider the underlying motivation to be narcissism. This isn't an issue of a man identifying as a women because we have a pronoun for that: her. This isn't an issue of a women identifying as a man because we have a pronoun for that: her.

I consider it narcissistic of you to insist that they use the pronouns you deem proper. It has nothing to do with you. Literally nothing.

They can use whatever pronouns they want. I'm going to stick to standard english.


Right, your real concern is protecting the english language from change.

That is why I hate foreign people and gay marriage. No bigotry or empathy-lacking bordering on hatred, just good old pride in defending the version of english taught to my generation.

Afterall, that version of english is the best one. The one's before needed to change, but now it is at a level of perfection.
 
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