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(NPR)   Hello, and welcome to Olive Garden. My name is Snowflake, and I'll be your genderqueer postgrad waitron this evening. I'll tell you our specials in a moment, but first, let me tell you that my preferred gender pronoun for tonight is   (npr.org) divider line 734
    More: Stupid, Olive Garden, Oberlin College, homeless youth, students' association, snowflakes, graduate schools, genders  
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21121 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2013 at 6:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-17 11:02:18 AM

FatPrincess: Monkeyhouse Zendo: be sure to show your work

It would take a book just to deconstruct the terminology. Giving bigots a model for social communication with non-binary gender presenting individuals would help reduce violence.


Or we could just ask who doesn't want to get kicked in the balls, and call them "dudes".

/I ain't conflating anything, I don't even have a pump.
 
2013-07-17 11:02:22 AM

optimus_grime: old people: the future is scary.

fark thread complete.


Young people.

We already sat through this movie.

Wait til you notice that you have, too.

Ha ha.
 
2013-07-17 11:03:55 AM

IAAl: I am sure that the Fark comments on an article about the gender spectrum is about the last useful place to post this but hey, why not?

Gender is not binary.

Not all people are simply Male or Female.

Regardless of how you define Male or Female, there are people who are both or neither.

If you want to go with the simplistic "is the 23rd set of chromosomes XX or XY?"  You will find that there are people with more than just two, see Aneuploidy.

If you decide to go with sex organs, there are people with both and people with neither.

Needless to say, if you go with characteristics or other physiology you see a wide range of characteristics among people that cross gender norms.

It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation.  Just because you identify strongly with one gender, and perhaps even look the part, does not mean that everyone does or that everyone identifies with either gender.


Sexual orientation isn't binary either. This is the same "up in arms" that people got over bisexuals, or people who might be hetero one day and homo the next. Nothing, it appears, about human beings is binary, not even the simple male/female question. So, we get to see people post on fark and everywhere else about how "they wish these people would stop making such a public deal of it" as they continue on about their day not counting the number of times they make a big deal about their gender or sexuality. And we'll eventually hear from the 'compassionate conservative minority' about how the actions of people they've never met are threatening their marriage, children, or something else. Even though, if they looked, they'd find someone gender queer in their own family.

And to the trans folks, I don't think you need to give up being at one side of the spectrum or the other just because some people choose the middle. Just like I wouldn't tell someone strictly straight or gay that they need to be bi just because Kinsey did this study a few years ago. If you are comfortable at that point on the spectrum, then embrace it. Me? I'll keep flipping a coin each morning, or using some Brownian motion to determine my place on the spectrum.
 
2013-07-17 11:04:06 AM

liam76: here to help: lol... look how agry you are. Just look!

Angry?

I didn't take the time to type soemthing out and attemt to attribute it to somebody else.


here to help: Personally I do think it's a little silly

Really, because a few posts ago you were saying how marginilized these people who make up gender pronouns are, now they are silly?

Do you often think the issues of marganliized people are silly?  Or maybe you want to admit I was right?


here to help: what the hell does it matter to you?

Very little.  If some coont asked me to use a made up pronoun for them I would have nothing to do with them, or at the very least not play their little game.

Now maybe the earlier response above clued you in, but my problem isn't so much what these dipshiats are doing, I don't give a fark.  My problem is peopel like you claiming they are marginilized and putting on the same level as TG.  Which does a make a joke of their struggle.


You are confused as to what I was talking about earlier or you are being intentional obtuse (which seems to be a recurring theme with you). I was saying the transgender community are marginalized. This is something some members of that community are doing to eke out an identity in society and/or draw attention to an issue far to many either ignore or are openly hostile towards. This thread is a perfect example of that.

And for someone who doesn't care you sure are getting all het up 'bout it.
 
2013-07-17 11:04:26 AM

FatherDale: I have an idea: how about you live in your own little world where you call yourself whatever you want and leave everyone else the hell alone?


They are.  It's called Oberlin.  And, the fact that someone from NPR is hanging out there tells you everything you need to know about NPR.
 
2013-07-17 11:04:34 AM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: Is there something wrong with "criminals", "perpetrators of a hate crime", or even "domestic terrorists"?

Domestic terrorists? Okay, never mind, I'm just going to let it go.

If you want to erase all distinctions between various forms of crime and refer to them all as "crime" without specifying what act is criminal then be my guest. I tend to like language which is specific and direct which is why I use "tranny bashing" rather than "crime" or even "assault". It carries with it an immediacy and weight which is washed out by more generic terms.


It's odd how you managed to read "criminals" and "domestic terrorists" and yet completely missed five of the seven words between them.
 
2013-07-17 11:04:42 AM
The people that support this I call heir gender potato.
 
2013-07-17 11:05:28 AM

I drunk what: hey gaiz whats this thred?


Hey, it's IDW! I didn't think you visited anymore? Missed us?
 
2013-07-17 11:05:40 AM

Theaetetus: MrBallou: theflatline: I am open minded, friend of hetero,homo, confused, intersexed, and whatever gender assignment you are calling yourself.

As long as I do not have to hear about it all the damn time I could care less

This is what the whole LGBTASOetc. controversy comes down to for me. If I'm not trying to have sex with you, why on earth would it matter to me what your sexual interests are?

Gender identity is not the same as sexual preference.


I thought we were not suppose to care about gender identity.

I hate this brave new world.
 
2013-07-17 11:07:04 AM

psychosis_inducing: Y'know, since it's in colloquial use anyway, I don't get why the generic plural hasn't been deemed by whoever is in charge as acceptable. Gender may be a wide spectrum, but we don't need as many pronouns as there are subgenres of techno.


"y'all" for singular, and "all y'all" for plural.
 
2013-07-17 11:07:38 AM

here to help: liam76: here to help: lol... look how agry you are. Just look!

Angry?

I didn't take the time to type soemthing out and attemt to attribute it to somebody else.


here to help: Personally I do think it's a little silly

Really, because a few posts ago you were saying how marginilized these people who make up gender pronouns are, now they are silly?

Do you often think the issues of marganliized people are silly?  Or maybe you want to admit I was right?


here to help: what the hell does it matter to you?

Very little.  If some coont asked me to use a made up pronoun for them I would have nothing to do with them, or at the very least not play their little game.

Now maybe the earlier response above clued you in, but my problem isn't so much what these dipshiats are doing, I don't give a fark.  My problem is peopel like you claiming they are marginilized and putting on the same level as TG.  Which does a make a joke of their struggle.

You are confused as to what I was talking about earlier or you are being intentional obtuse (which seems to be a recurring theme with you). I was saying the transgender community are marginalized. This is something some members of that community are doing to eke out an identity in society and/or draw attention to an issue far to many either ignore or are openly hostile towards. This thread is a perfect example of that.

And for someone who doesn't care you sure are getting all het up 'bout it.


Dear pedants.

Internet wind up artist has a beard to it's balls.

Methuselah thinks it's clapped out.

Seriously.  Get a room.

thefightingwannstaches.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-07-17 11:08:52 AM

proteus_b: yourmomlovestetris: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

based only on that tale, one would likely conclude that there is no such thing as transgenderism...


Or that gender is so hard wired into the brain that even advanced (at the time) behavioral therapy can't change it. The brain sees the body it's in as it wants to see it, and gender is one of those expressions

But yeah, you go ahead and see it the way you want to see it. I'm sure that makes much more sense in your little world view, where things need to be neat and tidy.
 
2013-07-17 11:11:03 AM

mrshowrules: It isn't minor for the person suffering it.


It depends. If the person being referred to by a gender pronoun that they don't prefer hasn't eaten for a week, is being beaten, or is cold due to inadequate shelter and clothing which do you think would be the issue they would most likely wish to see addressed?

It is an issue for people who have all their creature comforts met and are more concerned about their social comforts than others who experience what we commonly consider suffering.
 
2013-07-17 11:11:20 AM

bunner: Dear pedants.

Internet wind up artist has a beard to it's balls.

Methuselah thinks it's clapped out.

Seriously. Get a room.


I'm currently waiting on something so I have nothing better to do until then.
 
2013-07-17 11:11:44 AM

xcv: [media.tumblr.com image 467x644]


homosexual is listed twice.
 
2013-07-17 11:12:28 AM

ykarie: in your little world view, where things need to be neat and tidy.


Not to make too fine a point of it but the entire human race, and I mean all alleged 347456 genders of it, has been beating it's f*cking brains out in the pursuit of neat and tidy since we could stand erect.  Hardly an imprecation, no matter how much inference you heap on it
 
2013-07-17 11:13:34 AM

here to help: I'm currently waiting on something so I have nothing better to do until then.


You could try coming up with a different handle.   =  )
 
2013-07-17 11:14:52 AM

bunner: You could try coming up with a different handle. = )


But I AM helping.

;-)
 
2013-07-17 11:15:09 AM

FatPrincess: It would take a book just to deconstruct the terminology. Giving bigots a model for social communication with non-binary gender presenting individuals would help reduce violence.


What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. - CH

I can provide a layman level description of quantum mechanics or general relativity which is accessibly by the average Joe on the street. Why should I let you hand wave your assertion away as "it's complicated"?
 
2013-07-17 11:15:48 AM
Are there any advocacy groups trying to raise money to cure the brain defect that mixes up a person's personality and physical gender characteristics?  Because that would make a lot more sense than gender reassignment surgeries and social engineering.
 
2013-07-17 11:15:52 AM

here to help: bunner: You could try coming up with a different handle. = )

But I AM helping.

;-)


No.  Not really.  Feel free to continue to vastly amuse yourself.   :  )  *click*
 
2013-07-17 11:17:53 AM

ykarie: Me? I'll keep flipping a coin each morning, or using some Brownian motion to determine my place on the spectrum.


You need help, im pretty sure obama care covers this
 
2013-07-17 11:18:01 AM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: mrshowrules: It isn't minor for the person suffering it.

It depends. If the person being referred to by a gender pronoun that they don't prefer hasn't eaten for a week, is being beaten, or is cold due to inadequate shelter and clothing which do you think would be the issue they would most likely wish to see addressed?

It is an issue for people who have all their creature comforts met and are more concerned about their social comforts than others who experience what we commonly consider suffering.


I think something that can lead to depression and even suicide to be suffering.

suffering  present participle of suf·fer(Verb)VerbExperience or be subjected to (something bad or unpleasant).Be affected by or subject to (an illness or ailment).
Perhaps you don't realize how significant an issue gender identity is because you are secure in your identity.  Empathy is ability to understand other people's suffering even if you do not have direct experience with it.
 
2013-07-17 11:18:12 AM

ox45tallboy: Can anyone translate these?

[nyulocal.com image 750x350]

I get: Chick, Dude, Larry Craig In A Skirt, Guy With A Boner, Rockette, Disabled Person, and Disabled Person Being Arrested.


+1 & reason #2408437438489284 why i love it here
 
2013-07-17 11:18:59 AM

Theaetetus: MrBallou: theflatline: I am open minded, friend of hetero,homo, confused, intersexed, and whatever gender assignment you are calling yourself.

As long as I do not have to hear about it all the damn time I could care less

This is what the whole LGBTASOetc. controversy comes down to for me. If I'm not trying to have sex with you, why on earth would it matter to me what your sexual interests are?

Gender identity is not the same as sexual preference.


Duh. That's why I said "interests". To include what gender you think of yourself as or wish you were and so on.

To try to restate my thesis: if the interaction between us is not gender-related, then your gender-state is none of my business.
 
2013-07-17 11:19:17 AM

GoldSpider: Are there any advocacy groups trying to raise money to cure the brain defect that mixes up a person's personality and physical gender characteristics?  Because that would make a lot more sense than gender reassignment surgeries and social engineering.


THIS
 
2013-07-17 11:19:56 AM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: CowardlyLion: Thanks for totally clearing that up with your brilliant explanation.

The referenced statement "...a new generation of young people is..." implies that insistence on personal pronouns is a fad among younger people. This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population. The implication is that since "young people" are obsessed with these trivialities, they are an example of successive generations getting dumber which was the core premise of Idiocracy.


...so where exactly is there any information about what young people want or think in that quote?

English is generally lacking in useful gender-neutral pronouns. This is not a new thing or a sudden fad, much less an indication of people somehow being stupid (it's kind of the exact opposite--people are aware of things that they don't readily have words for and want to make words to describe them rather than fumbling with imprecise language). People have tried to make up for that shortcoming for centuries. If someone manages to make broadly-accepted, new, gender-neutral pronouns, that would be wonderful.
 
2013-07-17 11:20:06 AM

Theaetetus: It's odd how you managed to read "criminals" and "domestic terrorists" and yet completely missed five of the seven words between them.


I imagine you think you've cleverly cornered me. "perpetrators of hate crime" is just as vague. "Hate crime" is actually a modifier to existing crime asserting motivation. Hate itself is not a crime but we adjust the severity of punishment for some crimes based on them being motivated by hate.

Just because I don't address all of your foolishness doesn't mean that I don't notice it.
 
2013-07-17 11:20:53 AM

Pangea: psychosis_inducing: Y'know, since it's in colloquial use anyway, I don't get why the generic plural hasn't been deemed by whoever is in charge as acceptable. Gender may be a wide spectrum, but we don't need as many pronouns as there are subgenres of techno.

"y'all" for singular, and "all y'all" for plural.


Except in parts of Baltimore, PA and the south were it is "y'alls".  You are obviously exclusionary to this oppressed minority.
 
2013-07-17 11:21:56 AM
This sounds like the gender-equivalent of White People Problems to me.
 
2013-07-17 11:23:42 AM

bunner: here to help: bunner: You could try coming up with a different handle. = )

But I AM helping.

;-)

No.  Not really.  Feel free to continue to vastly amuse yourself.   :  )  *click*


Wow. Lighten up.
 
2013-07-17 11:24:50 AM

CowardlyLion: English is generally lacking in useful gender-neutral pronouns. This is not a new thing or a sudden fad, much less an indication of people somehow being stupid (it's kind of the exact opposite--people are aware of things that they don't readily have words for and want to make words to describe them rather than fumbling with imprecise language). People have tried to make up for that shortcoming for centuries. If someone manages to make broadly-accepted, new, gender-neutral pronouns, that would be wonderful.


As I said before "it" works as does "their". People don't like "it" because historically we've used "it" for objects which the language considers genderless but he and she for people which we view as gendered. If one wants to be viewed as gender neutral, "it" is the proper pronoun.

You want to know English really needs? A you inclusive.
 
2013-07-17 11:25:44 AM
This will be the next ebonics
 
2013-07-17 11:26:56 AM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: It's odd how you managed to read "criminals" and "domestic terrorists" and yet completely missed five of the seven words between them.

I imagine you think you've cleverly cornered me. "perpetrators of hate crime" is just as vague. "Hate crime" is actually a modifier to existing crime asserting motivation. Hate itself is not a crime but we adjust the severity of punishment for some crimes based on them being motivated by hate.


Actually, that would be depend on jurisdiction. In many places, there are separate statutes for hate crimes beyond mere sentencing guidelines. But this is perhaps a pedantic point somewhat beyond the scope of this discussion.
No, I "cleverly cornered you" by giving an example of a proper term that you completely ignored so that you could complain that I hadn't given a proper term. Somehow, I apparently predicted that you would cherry pick from my post. This, to you, is apparently an incredibly clever ruse.
 
2013-07-17 11:28:44 AM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: As I said before "it" works as does "their". People don't like "it" because historically we've used "it" for objects which the language considers genderless but he and she for people which we view as gendered.


Well, that and "it" suggests "non-person".  I can understand why anyone would reject that term.
 
2013-07-17 11:32:23 AM
I don't need to call you a specific gender when I order. I can call you farking "server" if you start getting all upity about your gender preference. Seriously, I just want to order and eat, not carry on a conversation with you. That's why I brought other people with me.
 
2013-07-17 11:34:25 AM
i40.tinypic.com
 
2013-07-17 11:35:31 AM

here to help: And I think people are missing the point. This is more than likely being done to shove the issue to the front of the conversation. A friend of mine has been going through a REAL hard time with this exact scenario. I call her she because that's how I met her. Born a female but very androgynous and before anyone starts saying "lesbo AW! Whargharble!!1" there are severe chemical and physical differences with her. For example she could grow a beard as a teen. Imagine how f*cking terrible and confusing that would have been. She held all that gender crap in and just played the part of girl/tomboy. Dated guys and chicks but mostly just wasn't interested in sex. She hid it from most of her friends even though we are all supposedly open minded and ultra progressive people. Well a few years back she was completely breaking down because of the stress of this and started talking to doctors (who confirmed the physical gender problems) and her friends. Well apparently a lot of people were complete assholes to her about it. It was shocking considering the community. Very pro equal rights across the board but for some reason just the thought of a trans gender made them all wonky. Very disappointing. I guess I am one of the few she's been able to talk to about it and I find that heartbreaking.

So no. It's not easy for these people and this is obviously a way for them let people know who and what they are and make people talk about it instead of just squirming in their seats or waiting until they leave to talk behind their backs.

Put yourselves in their shoes. How would you feel?


Your friend was failed by her parents? I'm pretty sure those issues would have come in at puberty as not normal and s/he should have gone to the fracking doctor to make sure s/he wasn't experiencing something very abnormal, didn't have funky genetics, etc.  Growing a full beard at puberty isn't normal for most women and unless your family has a history of ultra hairy gals then yeah, I think s/he was failed.

But yes, everyone's life struggle is not the problem of others and society should shift for these individuals. I'm perfectly okay with transgendered people and people of most sexual orientations (it's when you start going to 'pan', demi- gray crap that I'm going to start tuning out).
 
2013-07-17 11:35:57 AM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: FatPrincess: Giving bigots a model for social communication with non-binary gender presenting individuals would help reduce violence.

Why should I let you hand wave your assertion away as "it's complicated"?


Okay, I'm just winging it here so I'll consider all criticism as constructive.

In the formation of community we inquire about his or her relationship to it and to others' participation. Membership in a community requires identification and a common symbol system. Non-conforming individuals who physically reside in the community risk dehumanization, threats, and depersonalization into stereotypical caricatures as bigots try to police the cultural norms. Discussing a scheme of social interactions such as gender neutral pronouns will raise the sociological hierarchy of bigots from behavior and action, such as punching and kicking, to social relation where they instead have a framework for integrating the transsexual as a community member instead of bashing them.
 
2013-07-17 11:39:44 AM

FatPrincess: Monkeyhouse Zendo: FatPrincess: Giving bigots a model for social communication with non-binary gender presenting individuals would help reduce violence.

Why should I let you hand wave your assertion away as "it's complicated"?

Okay, I'm just winging it here so I'll consider all criticism as constructive.

In the formation of community we inquire about his or her relationship to it and to others' participation. Membership in a community requires identification and a common symbol system. Non-conforming individuals who physically reside in the community risk dehumanization, threats, and depersonalization into stereotypical caricatures as bigots try to police the cultural norms. Discussing a scheme of social interactions such as gender neutral pronouns will raise the sociological hierarchy of bigots from behavior and action, such as punching and kicking, to social relation where they instead have a framework for integrating the transsexual as a community member instead of bashing them.


Well put.

You can simplify it further.  Measures to ensure societal inclusion reduce potential violence towards those seen as excluded.
 
2013-07-17 11:40:26 AM
Theaetetus:
Gender identity is not the same as sexual preference.

I don't understand is how "gender identity" makes such an impact on an existance.
Feeling that you've been born with the wrong plumbing, I can get that.  How you know what the tubing feels like confuses the shiat out of me, but whatever.
Feeling like you should dress or act in a certain way, I get that.
What is so awful about you being someone that doesn't fit into the standard box?  So you have short hair, pants, and a shirt and people call you "he".  You have long hair and a slight frame and straight male make cat-calls at you (happens to my homophobic brother often).  WTF is so wrong with YOU (using as a generic term, not specifically Theaetetus) that you have to have the world create a new category for you.

I hate the social constructs around this issue.  I'm a male who likes cars, guns, grilling, and beer.  I also cook dinner, do my own laundry, like to decorate and listen to disco.
 
2013-07-17 11:41:20 AM

theflatline: I think the poster who said previously that the majority of us walking around the planet, especially in the US, are just concerned with being, and are not further trying to segregate ourselves or anyone else by creating classes of gender or any other classes for that matter.

I see a person in front of me, and that is all. Just because I choose not to address every fringe group and learn their way of thinking does not mean I am a racist or a bigot. Nor is it my fault for having been born hetero. I just do not like people lecturing me on how I should react and think......


Very well said.

A person is a person to me.  I treat everyone equally and how I want to be treated...that is right up to the point where they militantly point out how different they are.  Or worse, deride me because my societal norm of addressing human beings doesn't meet with their expectations.  And then the worst part is when I try to correct my "offense" out of courtesy and then get some vitriolic soliloquy because I'm perceived as one of "those people"

Here's a tip.  If I'm treating you respectfully and you insist on taking out your pent up rage on me because I made an honest mistake, you have just made me one of "those people" as far as you are concerned.
 
2013-07-17 11:42:40 AM

GoldSpider: Monkeyhouse Zendo: As I said before "it" works as does "their". People don't like "it" because historically we've used "it" for objects which the language considers genderless but he and she for people which we view as gendered.

Well, that and "it" suggests "non-person".  I can understand why anyone would reject that term.


He may not be able to understand why, for reasons discussed upthread.
 
2013-07-17 11:43:15 AM

Theaetetus: Danger Mouse: Since when where pronouns ment to identify an individuals personal  sexual preference?

Who says sexual preference has anything to do with pronouns?


The LBGTG comunity?

Yes, I am tying "gender identity" to sexuality.
 
2013-07-17 11:43:44 AM

Joe Blowme: GoldSpider: Are there any advocacy groups trying to raise money to cure the brain defect that mixes up a person's personality and physical gender characteristics?  Because that would make a lot more sense than gender reassignment surgeries and social engineering.

THIS


No thanks.

Seriously, would you want to be brainwashed?
 
2013-07-17 11:45:03 AM
And this is why I hate people.
 
2013-07-17 11:45:40 AM
mrshowrules:Perhaps you don't realize how significant an issue gender identity is because you are secure in your identity.

Perhaps you don't realize that while I recognize gender dysphoria causes mental suffering I tend to rank suffering in terms of intensity. I have watched people dither over issues of social discomfort while they ignore others who live in hunger and want. Maybe that's not everyone who complains that they don't like the current set of gendered pronouns but it has certainly been my experience of them: well fed, comfortable, secure but driven to stamp out that last bit of discomfort before considering that others may be experiencing more acute and life threatening suffering.

I don't deny that they suffer. I simply view the pain of an unwanted pronoun to be like complaining that you have a splinter in your thumb and that once you have it out you'll turn your attention the person on fire.

Empathy is ability to understand other people's suffering even if you do not have direct experience with it.

What makes you think I don't understand the discomfort of a pronoun one doesn't fully identify with? Is it that I don't immediately leap assuage that pain?
 
2013-07-17 11:46:28 AM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I have watched people dither over issues of social discomfort while they ignore others who live in hunger and want.


Like, say, people who post in a Fark thread rather than working at their local shelter?
 
2013-07-17 11:47:25 AM

GoldSpider: Monkeyhouse Zendo: As I said before "it" works as does "their". People don't like "it" because historically we've used "it" for objects which the language considers genderless but he and she for people which we view as gendered.

Well, that and "it" suggests "non-person".  I can understand why anyone would reject that term.


What does "zir" suggest?
 
2013-07-17 11:47:44 AM

Theaetetus: Monkeyhouse Zendo: I have watched people dither over issues of social discomfort while they ignore others who live in hunger and want.

Like, say, people who post in a Fark thread rather than working at their local shelter?


oh snap
 
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