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(NPR)   Hello, and welcome to Olive Garden. My name is Snowflake, and I'll be your genderqueer postgrad waitron this evening. I'll tell you our specials in a moment, but first, let me tell you that my preferred gender pronoun for tonight is   (npr.org) divider line 731
    More: Stupid, Olive Garden, Oberlin College, homeless youth, students' association, snowflakes, graduate schools, genders  
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21127 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2013 at 6:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-17 10:01:25 AM  

CowardlyLion: Okay, I'll bite. What about that quote has anything to do with Idiocracy?


Only the central theme of the movie of how successive generations were getting dumber and dumber.
 
2013-07-17 10:01:33 AM  
May I suggest the term 'b*tch'?

"B*tch, where's my food?"
"B*tch, where's my beer?"
"I would like some coffee, b*tch."
"I took this b*tch to the football game, he had a great time."
"I took this b*tch to dinner, she loved the ribeye."
*opens the door* "You're welcome. B*tch."
"B*tch owes me money."
 
2013-07-17 10:02:08 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: CowardlyLion: Thanks for totally clearing that up with your brilliant explanation.

I would have thought it was self explanatory which is why I didn't write you a farking dissertation but apparently you're a little slow.

The referenced statement "...a new generation of young people is..." implies that insistence on personal pronouns is a fad among younger people. This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population. The implication is that since "young people" are obsessed with these trivialities, they are an example of successive generations getting dumber which was the core premise of Idiocracy.

Thank you for helping to demonstrate that Idiocracy was, if not a documentary, prophecy.


You're calling a shiattily made comedy movie a prophecy, but it's kids who are obsessed with trivialities? Buy a mirror.
 
2013-07-17 10:02:29 AM  
When did we as a society started giving a shiat what kids and young people think? Kids are young people are dumber than shiat.
 
2013-07-17 10:02:48 AM  
I'm telling you, the best place for transgender people is working at the airport for TSA.

They can frisk anyone and nobody could really complain.  If anything the confusion of what is frisking you would lessen the inconvenience.
 
2013-07-17 10:03:17 AM  

Danger Mouse: Since when where pronouns ment to identify an individuals personal  sexual preference?


Who says sexual preference has anything to do with pronouns?
 
2013-07-17 10:04:07 AM  

Super_pope: I've always wondered why some people are SO happy to embrace certain "I was born this way but I feel like X" and absolutely laugh their ass off at others.  My wife will point out all the time how we have extra privillages cause we're both cis-gendered, but people who think they feel like a dragon on the inside?  "Lol that's so stupid."  Anime dorks who think they're Asian on the inside?  Racist dorks.  I've known trans people to say, "I was supposed to be a woman," or whatever, which to me means something is physically not right between the structure of the brain and the body/hormones it produces.  If one person experiences this as being emotionally a different gender, and one person supposedly experiences this as, "I'm a pikachu inside," why is one laughable and one a totally viable identity choice?

I mean is it hard to believe that someone who goes around identifying themselves as a Snorlax and refusing to be woken up by any alarm clock that isn't attached to a pokeflute doesn't have something seriously wrong with them?


otherkin...oh the otherkin. Is it just me or  does tumblr seem to have more crazy per-capita than an insane asylum?
 
2013-07-17 10:04:46 AM  

Rurouni: When did we as a society started giving a shiat what kids and young people think? Kids are young people are dumber than shiat.


Facebook and the Internet have led over-priveleged idiots to believe that their opinions actually matter.
 
2013-07-17 10:04:47 AM  

ThatDarkFellow: If you were born with a penis you're male. If you were born with a vagina you're female. You're free to do whatever the hell you want with them after you're born and I couldn't care less, but biology is biology. I'm not a duck just because I say so.


sex != gender
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2013-07-17 10:06:36 AM  

Rurouni: Kids are young people are dumber than shiat.


Quick question: how old are you?
 
2013-07-17 10:08:01 AM  

Heron: I have literally never seen or heard a trans or queer-gendered person make this argument(though perhaps that just means I don't traffic with jerks). The only people I've ever seen make it are social conservatives who feel the social pressure to be polite to another human as a huge imposition upon them and try to make it seem ridiculous as a result.


I wasted one night a year listening to a group of LGBT people on a social justice committee do precisely what I implied i.e. obsess about how they are treated socially and ignore that there are people with actual life threatening issues. Maybe you'd like to scroll back to my little tangent into "cool story bro" time. That experience irrevocably altered how I view anyone attempting to "raise awareness" for an issue that is not directly life threatening.

What you're saying is really no different than harassers calling out women for "causing a scene" by objecting to being manhandled by strangers in public, or immigrants as "traitorous" and "nationalist" for having pride in where they're from, or black folks as being "hypocrites" for objecting to white folks using certain words that some AAs sometimes use to refer to each other.

This is bullshiat, plain and simple. The fact that you don't seem to be able to distinguish between actual harassment or assault and failing to cater to the whims of another regarding how they would like to be addressed is the clearest indication that you have lost all perspective. I do make that distinction. I distinguish physical pain, hunger, and legitimate fear for one's life from having one's feelings hurt or being socially awkward.
 
2013-07-17 10:08:06 AM  

DGS: Rurouni: Kids are young people are dumber than shiat.

Quick question: how old are you?


He'll be seven and a half in October, why?
 
2013-07-17 10:08:10 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: liam76: HotWingConspiracy: liam76: But this I am special I need a new made up group? It is farking BS.

I see it the other way. It seems like they're saying they aren't special, and the made up group is essentially a non-identity in terms of gender.

If they aren't special why do they need a made up group?

I'd say all groups are made up, you're just comfortable with the prevailing ones. I mean, I am too, I think the Tractor guy is getting a bit ahead of himself. But I get it on a thought experiment level, and I don't think their mentality is "I'm special so cater to me".


If you are daily switching gender pronouns and even creating them, yes you are asking for special attention.

fark them, and fark people who think they are victims here.

That isn't comprable with people who are living for years as the "wrong" gender.  These are people playing games.
 
2013-07-17 10:08:22 AM  
Monkeyhouse Zendo:  This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population.

Ze/zim/zis?
 
2013-07-17 10:09:01 AM  

liam76: People who change their prefered gender pronouns daily and occasionally create them are marginilzed only by their self centered "snowflake" whims.  And in my opinion rightly so.  I am not going to take the tiem or effort to constantly check then change how I adress soemone, espceically when it includes made up pronouns.


Most of the people doing this are probably in the transgender community so they are marginalized and isolated. I guess if your belief is these people are all perfectly mainstream except for the pronoun thing then sure in that unrealistic scenario they are doing it to themselves.
 
2013-07-17 10:09:26 AM  

WhippingBoy: Because it's all about me.


I guess.  Its just weird to me that we look at the kid who thinks he's Kratos from God of War on the inside and go, "Lol that kid's crazy, because there's no such thing as Kratos," and shove him in the psyche ward, but if you're a guy who thinks he feels like a girl on the inside its all, "Well girls exist, so we'd better get you some surgery to help your body be more like the girl you feel like on the inside."  Like why are these things different?  What if he thought he was a chimp on the inside?  We've only got like a 1% overall genetic differential between us and chimps, is it really super different for him to say he feels like a chimp than to say he feels like a woman?  Why don't we let him get his tibia shortened so he can have a more ape-like gait so that he can be happy and look more like he feels?

Its just weird to me that we consider one of these things a relative normal identity that should be treated as equally viable, and one as a person being crazy/an AW, when really they seem like the same problem where the person has latched onto different expressions of what they think would make them feel comfortable/happy.
 
2013-07-17 10:09:36 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I wasted one night a year listening to a group of LGBT people on a social justice committee do precisely what I implied i.e. obsess about how they are treated socially and ignore that there are people with actual life threatening issues.


So you showed up to a LGBT social justice committee meeting and were surprised when they talked about social justice for LGBT people? Honest question, can you count to 2?
 
2013-07-17 10:10:19 AM  
Lexx: "It was the fact you used disabled individuals as a comparison."

It wasn't a strict comparison, it was an analogy; a partial comparison for illustrative purposes.
I chose the disabled because it highlights how incredibly cruel it can be, to make everyone who is *not* different, explicitly state that they are *not different* in front of someone who *is* and then making that person who *is* different explicitly *request* the additional affordances that are otherwise left implied by a civilized society.

My point is an aside to whether they (inevitably) fail. The proposal, beyond it's inevitable failure, sounds incredibly cruel to me.
 
2013-07-17 10:11:11 AM  
We need a gender-neutral pronoun just so I can deal with the Pat's of the world with as little explanatory discussion as possible. Beyond that, unless you're looking to date me or my kids I don't give a fark what you think about gender.

ts3.mm.bing.net
 
2013-07-17 10:11:55 AM  

ph0rk: Lexx: Your position basically equates people who don't fall into the gender binary as having a disability.  I think that may be one of the fundamental points of argument.  Having come to terms with their different-ness, they want to change the English language & social customs to normalize their condition in the eyes of the general public, or at least create the perception that gender is fluid & not binary.

I pity them for this, since has a snowball's chance in hell of happening.

That is the usual argument, and I agree - the main problem is just numbers. There are (and will in all likelihood) continue to be more 'cisgender' folks than queer/whatever folks. It is terribly hard to get nine tenths of the population to refer to themselves as a specific category when they think of themselves as just being.

I vaguely recall seeing references to the "fully-abled" but I assume most are in jest.


Heron: That's actually how I picked up the usage, too; it was just far simpler and lazier to use "they/their" in my academic writing than to constantly be switching between him/her when writing about theoretical people :p Finding out later that my natural instinct in this regard was backed up by historically correct English grammar was a nice bonus :)

Do you happen to have a cite handy? I hadn't heard about the older singular usage before.


The etymology section of wikipedia's "They" article is a good breakdown. Under "Usage" it points out that Oxford traces official use of the singular "they" back only to the 16th century, but it's important to remember that English wasn't really systematized until that time, and that the roots of that use go back much further (which is to suggest that colloquial, non-recorded use likely preserved what the Frenchified upper-classes abandoned, only to be picked up once again when the English elites became interested in distinguishing themselves from the French ~the Tudor period).
 
2013-07-17 10:14:21 AM  

thurstonxhowell: Monkeyhouse Zendo: I wasted one night a year listening to a group of LGBT people on a social justice committee do precisely what I implied i.e. obsess about how they are treated socially and ignore that there are people with actual life threatening issues.

So you showed up to a LGBT social justice committee meeting and were surprised when they talked about social justice for LGBT people? Honest question, can you count to 2?


No, I showed up at my Unitarian Church's social justice committee with the apparently unwarranted assumption that a church based social justice committee might be interested in assisting the hungry, homeless and abused. I didn't realize at the time that the term "social justice" had been co-opted by the LGBT community to mean "raising awareness of LGBT issues".

But yeah, way to jump right in with those assumptions.
 
2013-07-17 10:15:14 AM  

Theaetetus: Monkeyhouse Zendo:  This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population.

Ze/zim/zis?


What's wrong with "it"?
 
2013-07-17 10:15:39 AM  
I wish political correctness was generated by a physical machine and I had an opportunity to smash it to pieces.
 
2013-07-17 10:15:51 AM  

Theaetetus: Monkeyhouse Zendo:  This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population.

Ze/zim/zis?


It/Its and They/Their
 
2013-07-17 10:16:43 AM  

DGS: accelerus: blah blah blah -- didn't read the article. do not care.

Look like a dude:  I call you a "he"

Look like a lady: I call you a "she"

Dude looks like a lady: I call you ugly and or a freak.

I just don't care about them or their weird ass feelings. If we cater to this bullshiat sooner or later we are going to have 50 different categories of gender because we have to cater to EVERYONE's retarded bullshiat life story.

/checks profile, sees TX. Well, there's a surprise.


Wow.  How's it feel up there on your soapbox?
 
2013-07-17 10:18:01 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: Monkeyhouse Zendo:  This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population.

Ze/zim/zis?

It/Its


Dehumanizing.

and They/Their

Plural.

Inadequate on both counts.
 
2013-07-17 10:18:50 AM  

Headso: liam76: People who change their prefered gender pronouns daily and occasionally create them are marginilzed only by their self centered "snowflake" whims.  And in my opinion rightly so.  I am not going to take the tiem or effort to constantly check then change how I adress soemone, espceically when it includes made up pronouns.

Most of the people doing this are probably in the transgender community so they are marginalized and isolated.


Once again, read the farking article.

Transgender people don't daily change which gender they choose to idnetify with.

They don't make up gender pronouns.

And I am pretty sure a person born as a dude who wanted to be identified as a girl would be a little upset if after they had surgery, put on a dress and tried very hard to look like a woman they were asked daily what gender they identify with.  I don't know, fark TG brigade want to weigh in here?


Headso: I guess if your belief is these people are all perfectly mainstream except for the pronoun thing then sure in that unrealistic scenario they are doing it to themselves


The article is abotu shifting pronoun "thing".  they may very well face problems because of how they lok/dress etc, but that is all outside of the shifting pronoun thing.  You know the popint of the article.  If you are making up pronouns, and changing what you want to be called daily, yes you are doing it to yourself, and yes the "marginilization" that coems fromt hat is all your own doing.
 
2013-07-17 10:19:12 AM  

Heron: alice_600: Put yourselves in their shoes. How would you feel?

I would feel FABULOUS!

I would also get work blood work and check to see if I had any hormone imbalances that needed to be addressed. Asexuality isn't real to many because well that's what we're programmed to do in our DNA is to procreate. Many claim to be A sexual but it's more a cover for our own fears of having sex for the first time since western civilization puts a lot of high expectations on both partners.

A good example of this is my artist I work with in Wales. She said she was A-sexual I didn't say anything because she was early 20s and never had sex yet. Then the moment she did fall in love with a male she liked and started dating I noticed she no longer declared she was A-sexual.  She changed from Miss Shy and Unsure and conservative artist to a more open and romantic artist.  I asked if she was Asexual one day and She said back "A sexual beast but not A-sexual,"

Good for your friend, but your friend isn't every human being, ever. Asexuals do exist and -even if they didn't- what the heck is wrong with allowing someone to identify how they please? Would you insist on calling someone one name when they legally changed it to another? Arguments like this really remind me of the late 90s gay scene(not to say straights didn't and don't still do the same thing) and it's adamant refusal to accept that bisexuality could be a thing: "yeah he says he's bi but he's being pretty monogamous with Carlos so obviously he was always gay"; "sure she used to date a guy, but she's only dated women for the last two years so she's really a lesbian".


Not saying there isn't a thing as bi sexuality there is because some people just need to get comfortable in thier skin. I learned in life that you need to face your own fears and not whimper and moan when things don't go your way. Even science says lack of sexual desire is a mental if not a biological problem. Your friend could just not feel worthy of sexual intimacy or love. If they are not happy then it's not true Asexual it's a problem that can be easily fixed.
 
2013-07-17 10:19:36 AM  

Theaetetus: Inadequate on both counts.


Honestly don't give a shiat. As far as I'm concerned, what we're talking about is narcissism.
 
2013-07-17 10:20:56 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: Inadequate on both counts.

Honestly don't give a shiat. As far as I'm concerned, what we're talking about is narcissism.


"We already have gender neutral pronouns!"
"No, we don't."
"Well, I don't care!"

You may think that's a reasonable argument. Others may think you're throwing a tantrum.
 
2013-07-17 10:21:51 AM  

Theaetetus: Dehumanizing.


It is very rude to people who feel on the inside like they are objects to use "dehumanizing" as a judgmental term. That is the transition many of them are going through right now and it is very insensitive to use it in a derogatory way.
 
2013-07-17 10:23:38 AM  

Theaetetus: "We already have gender neutral pronouns!"
"No, we don't. They aren't ones that I like."
"Well, I don't care!"


Fixed that for you.
 
2013-07-17 10:23:42 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: [i26.photobucket.com image 800x451]


WTF does that even mean? I've asked every time I see the pic posted (and when I see the movie), but no one has been able to answer. Sounds to me like he's smart-mouthing off to the cop:

Cop: "Are you human?"
Corbin: "Negative, I'm a meat Popsicle."

... but I'd think that would earn him a beat-down.
 
2013-07-17 10:24:49 AM  
Ou gives a fu?

Give your head a shake, and do something to improve your self-esteem.
This is pretty narcissistic, IMHO.
 
2013-07-17 10:24:57 AM  

Aulus: OK, maybe it's because I am hetero and in  my mid-sixties, but were I in such a situation and someone I had never met chose to introduce themself that way, I'd get up and walk out.

Look, I do not care how you conduct yourself gender or sexual wise in private, but do not feel the need to slap me in the face with it when we are not interacting intimately and/or in public and especially if we have never met and are unlikely to in the future.

IOW, STFU and act like an adult.


I knew someone else would explain this, thus saving me the trouble.
 
2013-07-17 10:24:59 AM  

liam76: The article is abotu shifting pronoun "thing". they may very well face problems because of how they lok/dress etc, but that is all outside of the shifting pronoun thing. You know the popint of the article. If you are making up pronouns, and changing what you want to be called daily, yes you are doing it to yourself, and yes the "marginilization" that coems fromt hat is all your own doing.


Oh no. Young people are exploring new ways of thinking! They must be stopped!
 
2013-07-17 10:25:17 AM  

fredklein: WTF does that even mean? I've asked every time I see the pic posted (and when I see the movie), but no one has been able to answer. Sounds to me like he's smart-mouthing off to the cop:

Cop: "Are you human?"
Corbin: "Negative, I'm a meat Popsicle."

... but I'd think that would earn him a beat-down.


Are you questioning Corbin Dallas's right to self identify as a mean popsicle and denying him the basic courtesy of being addressed as such?
 
2013-07-17 10:25:22 AM  

liam76:

I AM ANGRY ABOUT THE CLENIS!!!


We know, liam. We know.
 
2013-07-17 10:26:04 AM  
If you're no particular gender then you won't mind if I kick you in the balls, will you?
 
2013-07-17 10:27:09 AM  

thurstonxhowell: Oh no. Young people are exploring new ways of thinking! They must be stopped!


More like "young people are exploring largely pointless and unproductive ways of thinking rather than making any effort to address actual issues of human suffering".
 
2013-07-17 10:28:11 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: "We already have gender neutral pronouns!"
"No, we don't. They aren't ones that I like."
"Well, I don't care!"

Fixed that for you.


^
 
2013-07-17 10:28:15 AM  
What about a$$hole? That's gender neutral. Can I call you a$$hole? I identified your self for you  and assigned you a gneder neutral pronoun.
And why pronoun? Isn't that discriminatory against amateur nouns?
 
2013-07-17 10:28:34 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: If I'm ever presented with the statement "my preferred pronouns are X/Y/Z" my response will be "how about I just call you narcissist?"

Monkeyhouse Zendo: This is now my perception when anyone mentions raising awareness or the LGBT community: endless talk and narcissism while actual human misery is ignored.

Monkeyhouse Zendo: What we're discussing here is narcissism.

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Honestly don't give a shiat. As far as I'm concerned, what we're talking about is narcissism.


Traits and signs of narcissism:
An obvious self-focus in interpersonal relationships
Difficulty with empathy
Hypersensitivity
Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people


... I think what we're really talking about is projection.
 
2013-07-17 10:28:40 AM  

Surpheon: We need a gender-neutral pronoun just so I can deal with the Pat's of the world with as little explanatory discussion as possible. Beyond that, unless you're looking to date me or my kids I don't give a fark what you think about gender.

[ts3.mm.bing.net image 240x187]


Why does that person think that passing for male requires that they pretend not to have a neck?
 
2013-07-17 10:29:00 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: thurstonxhowell: Oh no. Young people are exploring new ways of thinking! They must be stopped!

More like "young people are exploring largely pointless and unproductive ways of thinking rather than making any effort to address actual issues of human suffering".


Which is totally different from what young people usually do.
 
2013-07-17 10:29:16 AM  
Good manners cost nothing, thus if my waiter/waitress/serving body decided to share more than the daily specials and take my order, I would smile, listen and respond politely.  Once I had finished my meal, I would thank them and go; w/o leaving a tip.  I would behave in exactly the same way if the waiter/waitress/serving body told me about their nasty breakup, children's ailments or pet kitten's allergy to flea medication.  I'm not in a restaurant to form friendships with the rest of humanity; I'm there to eat.

I'm not a very social person anyway, but I'm really not interested in a complete stranger's personal beliefs and identity crisis.  I have enough practical problems of my own and if their need for validation is so great they insist on boring customers to death with the tale, they're facing much greater obstacles than which bathroom they wish to use.
 
2013-07-17 10:29:28 AM  
I spent three years trying to get people to say "shway" instead of "cool."

Never took off.  Just like Batman Beyond.

So good luck!
 
2013-07-17 10:29:37 AM  

Wingchild: I find this discussion ephemeral, its proponents a bore, and the end-result generally underwhelming. The role of language it to provide a framework for communication under which we can all agree that certain sounds represent certain concepts. People like to fark with it in the hopes that changing the framework will change reality around to a new configuration. (This doesn't happen, historically, but people like to dream.)

If the argument is that pronouns are just labels, and humans label things however they want, so you can use whatever pronoun you want to refer to yourself, whether it's he or her or ou or zee or shim or anything -- cool. I'm totally fine with it. Enjoy yourself. But recognize you're working at destroying the framework of the language we use to refer to one another and that this will make future communication quite complicated. Perhaps complex communication is what you're after. That's also cool, but if you're that hung up on pronouns I suspect that you're a boring coont and not someone worth talking to in the first place.

Don't get upset at me thinking you're a boring coont. It's just a label. Humans label things however they want. That's my label for people hung up on their pronouns. Boring coonts, be they boy-coonts or girl-coonts or ou-coonts or zee-coonts or gender-fluid-coonts.

That's my solution. You needed a custom non-cis-gender-confirming pronoun to properly express yourself? You're lumped into the 'coont' category. A coontegory, if you will. I can make new labels, too. I certainly mean no offense and trust you'll respect my unique perspective on this. After all, we're all human, at least 'til you find new words to describe that state of being, too.

/I once saw someone write that they were cool with anyone, even a omnisexual gender-queer species-fluid trans-bovine, as long as this individual shows up for work on time.
//They moo no offense, of course.


Agreed, tell them if they don't like the pronouns then they don't get to use them.  They can no longer call themselves "I" , instead they are sentenced to referring themselves in the third person for the rest of their lives.  It's easier to spot them that way.  When they are in groups, they must come up with a formal name for their group.
 
2013-07-17 10:32:51 AM  
Rapmaster2000: "I'm pretty certain we will invent new neutral and non-neutral pronouns whether we like it or not. Language evolves."

Of course it will evolve.
If it didn't evolve, there'd be no point in talking about any possible change in pronoun use.

But mutations 'take' or don't, based not only on emotional response from the community, but also on lingual fitness: does this communicate the idea effectively, or not?

And formal language is a subset of language based on what groups of communities can agree upon. So even though "language evolves", there's value in discussing fitness characteristics of given mutations, particularly as relates to what might get adopted into formal usage.
 
2013-07-17 10:34:07 AM  

Theaetetus: Traits and signs of narcissism:
An obvious self-focus in interpersonal relationships
Difficulty with empathy
Hypersensitivity
Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people

... I think what we're really talking about is projection.


Seriously, go back and read my little CSB time about my experience with my former church's social justice committee. Then come back and tell me that the year was well spent by everyone involved and that 52 hour and a half discussions with not a single person fed, clothed, or sheltered was a good thing. Then tell me again that I'm the narcissist for viewing people complaining about what pronoun they are addressed with as trivial and narcissistic.
 
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