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(NPR)   Hello, and welcome to Olive Garden. My name is Snowflake, and I'll be your genderqueer postgrad waitron this evening. I'll tell you our specials in a moment, but first, let me tell you that my preferred gender pronoun for tonight is   (npr.org ) divider line
    More: Stupid, Olive Garden, Oberlin College, homeless youth, students' association, snowflakes, graduate schools, genders  
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21141 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2013 at 6:49 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-17 08:40:13 AM  

AngryDragon: [gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net image 400x300]

Seriously.  Just tell us whatever the hell you want to be called and move on already.  The only reason this is an issue is because you're MAKING it an issue.  99% of people will politely acquiesce to your wishes out of courtesy if you just ask/correct them politely.

This smacks of AW syndrome.


Yeah, when someone addresses you with a smug tone of challenge, they're actually LESS likely to get cooperation. It's like they WANT the confrontation because they can afford it and are willing to buy the cool story how the guy they met, who they just KNEW was a total bigot, had a negative reaction to their aggressiveness. It's a complete obliviousness to their own reality.
 
2013-07-17 08:40:19 AM  
The point I'm attempting to make is I think we need to stop cutting ourselves into smaller and smaller categories.
Why can't we just be people?

Somewhat relevant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZkl1QpkJ00">http://www.youtube.com/w atch?v=JZkl1QpkJ00

/Flame on
 
2013-07-17 08:40:23 AM  
The article reminded me about the discussion between sex-positive and sex-negative. Getting rid of gender markers entirely would be a step toward the potential of actual consent. I'm defining sex-positive as recognizing that consent can take place between differing individuals of differing power.
 
2013-07-17 08:40:25 AM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: There are a lot of guys in this thread with a lot of latent anger towards themselves and society


Sure; everyone with a different opinion to you hates themselves and society. That's a healthy open-minded attitude you have there.

/Again: perfectly fine with using whatever people'spreferred pronouns are. If you make up awkward -sounding ones  and expect me to remember and use them OTOH, I will quietly hate you for making my life more difficult for no reason.
 
2013-07-17 08:40:29 AM  

BowtoMogul: Questioning, Uninterested, Biased and Furry


This isn't a response to you but its as good a jumping off place as any. Settle down, children, it's cool story bro time. Are you settled? Good, then let's begin.

At one time I attended a Unitarian Church and the meetings of its Social Justice Committee because I was interested in things like food kitchens, services for local poor, etc. What I discovered was that the Social Justice Committee was almost entirely focused on issues of LGBT acceptance. Various events were discussed intended to raise awareness and promote acceptance of people of alternative lifestyle choices. The problem was that in order to ensure that nobody was silenced and everyone had their say, discussion went on week after week of the minutiae of how to raise awareness without causing offense to some faction within the "alphabet soup" community. After a year of meetings, no event had been organized, no food dispensed, no shelter provided. Just endless talk of valid alternative lifestyles and triggers.

This is now my perception when anyone mentions raising awareness or the LGBT community: endless talk and narcissism while actual human misery is ignored.
 
2013-07-17 08:40:34 AM  

Lor M. Ipsum: If you implying


*facepalm*
 
2013-07-17 08:41:31 AM  
25.media.tumblr.com

"Garcon means boy"
 
2013-07-17 08:42:23 AM  
Ketzel Feasley? That's a made up name, right?
 
2013-07-17 08:42:38 AM  

FatPrincess: The article reminded me about the discussion between sex-positive and sex-negative. Getting rid of gender markers entirely would be a step toward the potential of actual consent. I'm defining sex-positive as recognizing that consent can take place between differing individuals of differing power.


A secretary simply cannot have a consensual relationship with a corporate CEO. I've been told that many times by the PC-looney crowd.

For some reason, since 1996, I don't hear it as often.
 
2013-07-17 08:43:13 AM  

PanicMan: "Dude" also works pretty well as a non-gender specific term.

But really, I don't care I'll call you whatever you want.


Not for someone being a gender-free language nazi.

That's ok, "y'all" and "hey, you" work for everybody.
 
2013-07-17 08:43:23 AM  

IAAl: I am sure that the Fark comments on an article about the gender spectrum is about the last useful place to post this but hey, why not?

Gender is not binary.

Not all people are simply Male or Female.

Regardless of how you define Male or Female, there are people who are both or neither.

If you want to go with the simplistic "is the 23rd set of chromosomes XX or XY?"  You will find that there are people with more than just two, see Aneuploidy.

If you decide to go with sex organs, there are people with both and people with neither.

Needless to say, if you go with characteristics or other physiology you see a wide range of characteristics among people that cross gender norms.

It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation.  Just because you identify strongly with one gender, and perhaps even look the part, does not mean that everyone does or that everyone identifies with either gender.



THIS.
 
2013-07-17 08:43:33 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-17 08:43:42 AM  

liam76: But this I am special I need a new made up group? It is farking BS.


I see it the other way. It seems like they're saying they aren't special, and the made up group is essentially a non-identity in terms of gender.
 
2013-07-17 08:44:31 AM  
proteus_b:

trans fight!
Two men enter, only one leaves. But he leaves as a woman. And in the interim, there may or may not have been some other genders involved. In any event it will be quite a tussle. You see, this is why boxing is best left to gays, they just take out their frustrations and beat people to death.


image.spreadshirt.com
 
2013-07-17 08:44:42 AM  

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Since I mentioned questions, here's the answers to the most common questions:

Since I was little.
The bathroom my "brain" gender identifies with.
It stops working reliably on hormones.
Very expensive, and most insurance doesn't cover it.
It's not contagious.
No I can't have kids.

And, the biggest question of all....

Do you normally ask people about their genitals, and major surgeries they may have had?


Genitals and medical history are important if I'm trying to figure out whether or not to attemp initiating courtship rituals. *wink*

(You have genitals, and you're not a walking bag of CancerAIDS.)
 
2013-07-17 08:44:49 AM  

Fromageball: Sometimes I feel sorry for men with their restrictive dress choices...especially now in the summer when I can get away with wearing pretty much whatever I want(especially since a lot of workplaces are changing their dress codes...it's like as a woman I can wear whatever the hell I want -within reason) but the men are still stuck in their button-downs and trousers.


You say that like there's something wrong with it.
 
2013-07-17 08:46:28 AM  

Gunther: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: There are a lot of guys in this thread with a lot of latent anger towards themselves and society

Sure; everyone with a different opinion to you hates themselves and society. That's a healthy open-minded attitude you have there.

/Again: perfectly fine with using whatever people'spreferred pronouns are. If you make up awkward -sounding ones  and expect me to remember and use them OTOH, I will quietly hate you for making my life more difficult for no reason.


Well hating that someone wants to be called something different and passive aggressively agreeing to their face completely proves that you have no latent issues regarding it and yourself. Thanks for proving me wrong.
 
2013-07-17 08:47:13 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: BowtoMogul: Questioning, Uninterested, Biased and Furry

This isn't a response to you but its as good a jumping off place as any. Settle down, children, it's cool story bro time. Are you settled? Good, then let's begin.

At one time I attended a Unitarian Church and the meetings of its Social Justice Committee because I was interested in things like food kitchens, services for local poor, etc. What I discovered was that the Social Justice Committee was almost entirely focused on issues of LGBT acceptance. Various events were discussed intended to raise awareness and promote acceptance of people of alternative lifestyle choices. The problem was that in order to ensure that nobody was silenced and everyone had their say, discussion went on week after week of the minutiae of how to raise awareness without causing offense to some faction within the "alphabet soup" community. After a year of meetings, no event had been organized, no food dispensed, no shelter provided. Just endless talk of valid alternative lifestyles and triggers.

This is now my perception when anyone mentions raising awareness or the LGBT community: endless talk and narcissism while actual human misery is ignored.


That's not a problem unique to the LGBT community. It's a problem of a flat organizational ethos. The touchy-feely crowd wants to be inclusive, even when their organization has leadership positions. You don't want to be a dictator, but you want to come up with the ideas and present options to the group. If they reject all of them, you may have a problem. But trying to get 20 people to all submit ideas and then come to a consensus on one will rarely overcome inertia. Between that and over-ambitious near-term goals, that's how philanthropic organizations die.
 
2013-07-17 08:48:07 AM  

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Now, if you wanna see two trans people fight, ask for the preferred method of "tucking". THAT triggers trans flamewars.


/Duct Tape or nothing


Whaaaaa no

That doesn't pull off of skin easily. You must suffer for your art.
 
2013-07-17 08:48:28 AM  
I have my own, self-invented dialect of the English language complete with alternate verb tenses.
I become offended and extremely angry when people fail to use or understand it. I'm a person, too!
 
2013-07-17 08:49:29 AM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Well hating that someone wants to be called something different and passive aggressively agreeing to their face completely proves that you have no latent issues regarding it and yourself. Thanks for proving me wrong.


As much as I wish things worked this way, telling people to their face that you think they are thinking and behaving stupidly is considered rude rather than helpful - the expected action is to politely treat them seriously and then shake your head about it later.
 
2013-07-17 08:49:33 AM  
And I think people are missing the point. This is more than likely being done to shove the issue to the front of the conversation. A friend of mine has been going through a REAL hard time with this exact scenario. I call her she because that's how I met her. Born a female but very androgynous and before anyone starts saying "lesbo AW! Whargharble!!1" there are severe chemical and physical differences with her. For example she could grow a beard as a teen. Imagine how f*cking terrible and confusing that would have been. She held all that gender crap in and just played the part of girl/tomboy. Dated guys and chicks but mostly just wasn't interested in sex. She hid it from most of her friends even though we are all supposedly open minded and ultra progressive people. Well a few years back she was completely breaking down because of the stress of this and started talking to doctors (who confirmed the physical gender problems) and her friends. Well apparently a lot of people were complete assholes to her about it. It was shocking considering the community. Very pro equal rights across the board but for some reason just the thought of a trans gender made them all wonky. Very disappointing. I guess I am one of the few she's been able to talk to about it and I find that heartbreaking.

So no. It's not easy for these people and this is obviously a way for them let people know who and what they are and make people talk about it instead of just squirming in their seats or waiting until they leave to talk behind their backs.

Put yourselves in their shoes. How would you feel?
 
2013-07-17 08:49:38 AM  
"WE WARNED YOU ABOUT THIS SHIAT!"

-Religion

I will here to fore only respond to "F*cker".
 
2013-07-17 08:49:43 AM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: There are a lot of guys in this thread with a lot of latent anger towards themselves and society because what they assumed were hard rules about gender and sexuality have changed. The rules you adhere to don't give you anything tangible. You aren't a "real man" because you played with trucks and roll your eyes at a rack of pink dress shirts. Following cultural norms is all well and good, until you've become so distant to the reasons and historical context that you're enforcing them - as evidenced in this thread - with such enthusiasm and vitriol - for the sake of just making others feel like outsiders.

Some people are different. Learn to deal with it.


Dear Wile E. Coyote (Super Genius),

You've done a masterful job of reading the minds of all of the posters so far who don't with your point of view. However, what about those of us who just can't be bothered to give a shiat about people who feel the need to flaunt convention because it makes them feel better. I honestly just don't give a shiat enough to change what has worked for the last 2000yrs including the previous span of my lifetime.

So in closing, anyone can feel free to ask to be called what they want, but i'm just not interested enough to comply with that request. If this is upsetting to them or you in any way, please feel free to take it up management.
 
2013-07-17 08:49:44 AM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Well hating that someone wants to be called something different and passive aggressively agreeing to their face completely proves that you have no latent issues regarding it and yourself. Thanks for proving me wrong.


Yes, the only reason to be annoyed by Tumblr Social Justice Warriors is that we are assiduously avoiding recognition of our own LGBTAGSFQWNZ nature.
 
2013-07-17 08:49:45 AM  
".....a new generation of young people ....."

The same kind of "generation of young people" that were raised by  douchebag helicopter parents, most likely.

Of all the politically correct bullsh*t words out there, "waitron" has to be one of the bullshiattiest. It doesn't erase gender identity so much as a person's humanity. Like being a "waitron" means that you're just some sort of serving robot.

us.123rf.com
 
2013-07-17 08:51:41 AM  

The Muthaship: here to help: Now who's the dumb ass, dumb ass?

You said sexuality, not sex, so I'm afraid it's still you.


You really aren't all that good at English are you?
 
2013-07-17 08:51:41 AM  

ox45tallboy: Why don't dudes get a couch?


Because eventually someone will piss / shiat on it.
 
2013-07-17 08:52:18 AM  

ox45tallboy: Can anyone translate these?

[nyulocal.com image 750x350]

I get: Chick, Dude, Larry Craig In A Skirt, Guy With A Boner, Rockette, Disabled Person, and Disabled Person Being Arrested.


That last one stands for Ludacris because he's obviously rolling out.
 
2013-07-17 08:53:34 AM  

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
Social norms change.  You are powerless to stop it.

 
2013-07-17 08:53:37 AM  
Really? 230+ posts and I'm the weeners?

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-07-17 08:53:48 AM  
Show me your drivers license.
Whatever it says, that I'll call you.

If you cannot convince the DWV, then you cannot convince me.
 
2013-07-17 08:53:56 AM  

dv-ous: Genitals and medical history are important if I'm trying to figure out whether or not to attemp initiating courtship rituals. *wink*

(You have genitals, and you're not a walking bag of CancerAIDS.)


I think I just got complimented somehow.  Fark is straaange.

I save myself the whole courtship thing, I don't have sex. There's very few people out there who can put up with the myriad other issues trans people have.  Add in the "transformerchasers", and our dating pool gets mighty shallow.

I'm putting that on my mirror now, though.  "You are not a bag of walking CancerAIDS".  It's motivational.
 
2013-07-17 08:54:04 AM  

bbcard1: I still don't know why "herm" hasn't caught on.


I know 2 guys named Herm.
 
2013-07-17 08:54:05 AM  

IAAl: It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation


No but the language is, and to expect your coworkers, or peopel youhave random encounters with to take the time to learn your recently made up words then apply them to you is dick in the toaster stupid.
 
2013-07-17 08:54:08 AM  
My wife is friends with a woman who's parents named her Gazel.  She gets really upset when people call her Gazelle cause THAT'S AN ANIMAL I AM NOT AN ANIMAL IM A PERSON.  Sorry your parents named you something that looks a hell of a lot like a word for an animal.  Not super applicable but I think its funny.

Anyway, if you look and dress like a dude I'm calling you he, and if you look and dress like a girl I'm calling you she.  Its not my job to keep straight how you THINK about yourself, especially if I have no idea who you are.  If you're a woman who's dressed like a man, cool, I'm happy to take the outward indication that you want to be considered a dude and run with it, bro.  Same thing if you're a guy wearing a dress and makeup.  You wanna go out in drag that's your thing and I'm happy to acknowledge it ma'am.
 
2013-07-17 08:54:13 AM  

OtherLittleGuy: Really? 230+ posts and I'm the weeners?

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 308x320]


Maybe you're just old.
 
2013-07-17 08:54:49 AM  
I just refer to everyone as "consumer." Well, hello consumer, yes, hello consumer. Bop bop bee da bop Bebop Cola, yeah.

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-07-17 08:54:56 AM  

here to help: The Muthaship: here to help: Now who's the dumb ass, dumb ass?

You said sexuality, not sex, so I'm afraid it's still you.

You really aren't all that good at English are you?


Pretty decent, not perfect.

No one asks for your sexuality when what they want to know is your gender.
 
2013-07-17 08:55:12 AM  

Bontesla: Jim_Callahan: While I wasn't raised in a barn, so I can in public basically call anyone whatever they ask to be called by with a straight face, I have to admit that every time someone makes a big deal out of being identified by their obvious biological gender (or getting annoyed when you mess it up, in the case of androgynous people) my actual unspoken reaction is basically "Oh my god who the hell cares".

If shiat like this actually catches on (probably won't) I'll learn it because etiquette is a life skill, but don't expect me to use it outside of formal venues.  PC crap is and always has been an artificial waste of time that conceals an underlying problem instead of or even at the expense of actually fixing it.

You don't care because you don't struggle with it. You take it for granted.

I know of an incredibly brave person who was born a man but just announced their desire to begin the process of gender reassignment. 56 years of being referred to as the wrong gender can wear a person down.

We tend to think of something as less important if it's not something we struggle with.


encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com

No one gives a crap about the things I struggle with or the challenges in my life. And I don't expect them to.
 
2013-07-17 08:55:21 AM  

Ricardo Klement: That's not a problem unique to the LGBT community. It's a problem of a flat organizational ethos. The touchy-feely crowd wants to be inclusive, even when their organization has leadership positions. You don't want to be a dictator, but you want to come up with the ideas and present options to the group. If they reject all of them, you may have a problem. But trying to get 20 people to all submit ideas and then come to a consensus on one will rarely overcome inertia. Between that and over-ambitious near-term goals, that's how philanthropic organizations die.


When I said minutiae, I meant it. I had never seen any committee quibble over trivialities as target date after target date passed. It didn't help that over half of the committee was either some flavor of gay or transgender. It was very obviously all about them. Social justice wasn't about making sure that hungry people got a hot meal, it was about how someone gave them a weird look at the grocery store the previous week.

What we're discussing here is narcissism.
 
2013-07-17 08:55:29 AM  

Public Savant: Show me your drivers license.
Whatever it says, that I'll call you.

If you cannot convince the DWV, then you cannot convince me.


Yes, because the government has an excellent track record with being current on human rights.
 
2013-07-17 08:56:01 AM  

Super_pope: Its not my job to keep straight how you THINK about yourself, especially if I have no idea who you are.


That's kind of the whole point of them telling you.
 
2013-07-17 08:56:26 AM  
Thank goodness George Zimmerman is not amongst this crowd, or we'd not only be arguing if he was white or hispanic, but also if he was a woman/man/whatever. Think of the uproar THAT would cause.

/I'd like to see that thread.
 
2013-07-17 08:57:16 AM  

The Muthaship: No one asks for your sexuality when what they want to know is your gender.


You've got nothing so you are attempting a semantics troll... a poor one at that.
 
2013-07-17 08:57:24 AM  

WhippingBoy: No one gives a crap about the things I struggle with or the challenges in my life. And I don't expect them to.


Those who have easier struggles should recognize it, though.


as in: I ain't got nothing but first world problems
 
2013-07-17 08:57:26 AM  

OtherLittleGuy: Really? 230+ posts and I'm the weeners?


2.bp.blogspot.com
I could have sworn you were the boobies.
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2013-07-17 08:57:30 AM  

here to help: And I think people are missing the point. This is more than likely being done to shove the issue to the front of the conversation. A friend of mine has been going through a REAL hard time with this exact scenario. I call her she because that's how I met her. Born a female but very androgynous and before anyone starts saying "lesbo AW! Whargharble!!1" there are severe chemical and physical differences with her. For example she could grow a beard as a teen. Imagine how f*cking terrible and confusing that would have been. She held all that gender crap in and just played the part of girl/tomboy. Dated guys and chicks but mostly just wasn't interested in sex. She hid it from most of her friends even though we are all supposedly open minded and ultra progressive people. Well a few years back she was completely breaking down because of the stress of this and started talking to doctors (who confirmed the physical gender problems) and her friends. Well apparently a lot of people were complete assholes to her about it. It was shocking considering the community. Very pro equal rights across the board but for some reason just the thought of a trans gender made them all wonky. Very disappointing. I guess I am one of the few she's been able to talk to about it and I find that heartbreaking.

So no. It's not easy for these people and this is obviously a way for them let people know who and what they are and make people talk about it instead of just squirming in their seats or waiting until they leave to talk behind their backs.

Put yourselves in their shoes. How would you feel?


This. A few times over, this.
 
2013-07-17 08:58:19 AM  

WhyteRaven74: Jon iz teh kewl: why don't they ahve DRUGS to treat this condition? like WELLBUTRIN or ZOLOFT

The insistence on the binary nature of gender is actually pretty much a western hang up. Perhaps you should take the drugs?


male/female/space mutant?
 
2013-07-17 08:58:30 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: Didn't we have this thread last week?  If you're gender confused pick the masculine or feminine, whichever you prefer, and try to stick with it. The overwhelming majority of people aren't going to be willing to learn new gender-neutral pronouns, so unless you fancy being called an 'it' just figure out which one you're closest to and run with that.


English already has a gender-neutral pronoun; "their/they". It's primarily used as a plural these days, but for most of English history it was a singular as well. Might seem confusing to have a noun-form that can be both plural and singular, specific and general, but when you find yourself thinking that just remember every romance language in existence does the same thing with nearly every noun they have, and some verb-forms too. English speakers get off pretty easy.
 
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