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(NPR)   Hello, and welcome to Olive Garden. My name is Snowflake, and I'll be your genderqueer postgrad waitron this evening. I'll tell you our specials in a moment, but first, let me tell you that my preferred gender pronoun for tonight is   (npr.org) divider line 731
    More: Stupid, Olive Garden, Oberlin College, homeless youth, students' association, snowflakes, graduate schools, genders  
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21137 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2013 at 6:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



731 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-07-17 01:16:50 AM  
Do we have a Headrant Of The Year category?
 
2013-07-17 01:17:37 AM  
Why does this have to be so confusing.  I'm just going to keep calling everyone dude.
 
2013-07-17 01:21:38 AM  
Ungendered pronouns would be great.  Un-gendering bathrooms would be nice too.  If women peep on men or men hog the couch, it's a small price to pay.  I would hog the shiat out of that couch.
 
2013-07-17 01:31:41 AM  
They're calling for more fluid categories beyond just male and female, as NPR's Margot Adler explains.

I'm totally fine with people who were born with a different sexual identity than what matches their naughty bits. It happens sometimes, and these days, there is no reason not to live a happy and fulfilled life wearing the gender in which you feel comfortable, and having sexual relations with whichever consenting adults wish to do so. Having said that, if your gender identity is changing,on a regular basis, perhaps you need to seek professional help. This is not normal or healthy, and other people catering to this whim is not helpful to your mental health.
 
2013-07-17 01:38:48 AM  

staplermofo: Ungendered pronouns would be great.  Un-gendering bathrooms would be nice too.  If women peep on men or men hog the couch, it's a small price to pay.  I would hog the shiat out of that couch.


Why don't dudes get a couch? What the hell are women doing in the can that necessitates a couch? I want a couch to chill on in the can. I would totally call the restaurant's number on my cell and ask for my waiter and then tell him bring me another beer to the couch in the men's room. Bonus points if it's a waitress. More bonus points if she does it. Negative points if she changes gender first.
 
2013-07-17 01:42:15 AM  

ox45tallboy: What the hell are women doing in the can that necessitates a couch?


Complaining about the line to get in.
 
2013-07-17 01:46:21 AM  

staplermofo: Complaining about the line to get in.


Of course they're complaining about the line. All the chicks are just sitting on the couch instead of doing their businesses and getting out to make room for the next person. Maybe the line would move quicker if they'd take the damn couch out, or at least move it to the men's room. Then the dudes would have someone to talk to while they're at the urinal.
 
2013-07-17 01:53:06 AM  
Didn't we have this thread last week?  If you're gender confused pick the masculine or feminine, whichever you prefer, and try to stick with it. The overwhelming majority of people aren't going to be willing to learn new gender-neutral pronouns, so unless you fancy being called an 'it' just figure out which one you're closest to and run with that.
 
2013-07-17 01:53:58 AM  
OK, maybe it's because I am hetero and in  my mid-sixties, but were I in such a situation and someone I had never met chose to introduce themself that way, I'd get up and walk out.

Look, I do not care how you conduct yourself gender or sexual wise in private, but do not feel the need to slap me in the face with it when we are not interacting intimately and/or in public and especially if we have never met and are unlikely to in the future.

IOW, STFU and act like an adult.
 
2013-07-17 02:09:57 AM  
nyulocal.com


Or the direction you prefer to roll your wheelchair, I guess.
 
2013-07-17 02:14:45 AM  

ox45tallboy: [nyulocal.com image 750x350]

Or the direction you prefer to roll your wheelchair, I guess.


I've looked at those things, and while I'm certainly no expert, it seems to me that if you drive in facing forward, you may be doing it wrong

/I could be wrong
//my experience is limited to crutches and a leg cast
 
2013-07-17 02:17:50 AM  

Is this something else new:

2.bp.blogspot.com


Or does he get his own restroom?

www.famouswhy.com
 
2013-07-17 02:27:41 AM  

Can anyone translate these?

nyulocal.com


I get: Chick, Dude, Larry Craig In A Skirt, Guy With A Boner, Rockette, Disabled Person, and Disabled Person Being Arrested.
 
2013-07-17 02:30:59 AM  
Lady in dress, man in pants, man in dress, woman in pants with small christmas tree, fabulous person, cripple lady, handicapable lady.
 
2013-07-17 02:31:09 AM  
FTA: "...a new generation of young people is..."

And people still insist that "Idiocracy" wasn't a documentary.
 
2013-07-17 02:33:19 AM  

DrPainMD: FTA: "...a new generation of young people is..."

And people still insist that "Idiocracy" wasn't a documentary.


I'm tempted to go with "prophecy"
 
2013-07-17 02:42:16 AM  

ox45tallboy: They're calling for more fluid categories beyond just male and female, as NPR's Margot Adler explains.

I'm totally fine with people who were born with a different sexual identity than what matches their naughty bits. It happens sometimes, and these days, there is no reason not to live a happy and fulfilled life wearing the gender in which you feel comfortable, and having sexual relations with whichever consenting adults wish to do so. Having said that, if your gender identity is changing,on a regular basis, perhaps you need to seek professional help. This is not normal or healthy, and other people catering to this whim is not helpful to your mental health.


I couldn't agree more, but, since the internet never forgets and I see the direction the forces of political correctness are going, I'm going to have to say, "Stop being such a close-minded, intolerant bigot."

There. Now, in twenty years, I will be hailed as a progressive thinker who was ahead of his time, and you will be lumped in with Limbaugh, Beck, Gingrich and Stalin. Won't that be fun?
 
2013-07-17 02:53:20 AM  

DrPainMD: I couldn't agree more, but, since the internet never forgets and I see the direction the forces of political correctness are going, I'm going to have to say, "Stop being such a close-minded, intolerant bigot."

There. Now, in twenty years, I will be hailed as a progressive thinker who was ahead of his time, and you will be lumped in with Limbaugh, Beck, Gingrich and Stalin. Won't that be fun?


Actually, in his younger days, before the Teddy Roosevelt 'stache, Stalin... well, you be the judge.

i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-17 02:59:57 AM  
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-07-17 06:12:09 AM  

ox45tallboy: staplermofo: Ungendered pronouns would be great.  Un-gendering bathrooms would be nice too.  If women peep on men or men hog the couch, it's a small price to pay.  I would hog the shiat out of that couch.

Why don't dudes get a couch? What the hell are women doing in the can that necessitates a couch? I want a couch to chill on in the can. I would totally call the restaurant's number on my cell and ask for my waiter and then tell him bring me another beer to the couch in the men's room. Bonus points if it's a waitress. More bonus points if she does it. Negative points if she changes gender first.


Wait..wait...you WANT to sit in the shiatter and hang out with other dudes while they piss? And you'd want food and beverages in there? What the fark is wrong with you?
 
2013-07-17 06:32:48 AM  
And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.
 
2013-07-17 06:51:11 AM  

Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.


Pragmatism is oppression.
 
2013-07-17 06:52:06 AM  
Hey hey hey, the couch is awesome.  Leave our couch alone.
 
2013-07-17 06:54:28 AM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: Hey hey hey, the couch is awesome.  Leave our couch alone.


Stop being so heteronormative, you fascist.
 
2013-07-17 06:54:35 AM  
How about just "douchenozzle"?
 
2013-07-17 06:55:50 AM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: Hey hey hey, the couch is awesome.  Leave our couch alone.


Perhaps now would be a bad time to mention the on-call French maid in every Men's bathroom?
 
2013-07-17 06:59:05 AM  

ox45tallboy: staplermofo: Ungendered pronouns would be great.  Un-gendering bathrooms would be nice too.  If women peep on men or men hog the couch, it's a small price to pay.  I would hog the shiat out of that couch.

Why don't dudes get a couch? What the hell are women doing in the can that necessitates a couch? I want a couch to chill on in the can. I would totally call the restaurant's number on my cell and ask for my waiter and then tell him bring me another beer to the couch in the men's room. Bonus points if it's a waitress. More bonus points if she does it. Negative points if she changes gender first.


That couch is in case some man uses corse language and the woman gets the vapors. I think they also keep a vial of smelling salts nearby.
 
2013-07-17 06:59:07 AM  
While I wasn't raised in a barn, so I can in public basically call anyone whatever they ask to be called by with a straight face, I have to admit that every time someone makes a big deal out of being identified by their obvious biological gender (or getting annoyed when you mess it up, in the case of androgynous people) my actual unspoken reaction is basically "Oh my god who the hell cares".

If shiat like this actually catches on (probably won't) I'll learn it because etiquette is a life skill, but don't expect me to use it outside of formal venues.  PC crap is and always has been an artificial waste of time that conceals an underlying problem instead of or even at the expense of actually fixing it.
 
2013-07-17 06:59:18 AM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: Hey hey hey, the couch is awesome.  Leave our couch alone.


All in all you're just a-nother brick in the toilet-tank-to-help-us-conserve-water-by-taking-up-space-so-the-toilet -flushes-with-less-water


I think I need to redo the meter on that line...
 
2013-07-17 06:59:34 AM  
I have an idea: how about you live in your own little world where you call yourself whatever you want and leave everyone else the hell alone?
 
2013-07-17 06:59:54 AM  

maudibjr: Why does this have to be so confusing.  I'm just going to keep calling everyone dude.


"Bro" also works really well.

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-07-17 07:00:02 AM  

maudibjr: Why does this have to be so confusing.  I'm just going to keep calling everyone dude.


Are you grooming your poodle? Can you show me your tattoos? Are you in the music business? Are you handling the money? Are you serving the food?
 
2013-07-17 07:02:49 AM  

Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.


All for the pierced/painted/trans/gay/straight world we live in, but I saw three otherwise able bodied people rooting through garbage this morning looking for scrap. Trying to make ends meet. They need work, and we're wasting our time navel gazing. Aren't we special.
 
2013-07-17 07:04:02 AM  

Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.


Yep, it is the lgbt civil rights movement that destroys our ability to do math and science jobs for less money than a company can hire someone in china to do.

Truly you understand world economics and international business models.
 
2013-07-17 07:04:31 AM  
Slippery slopes are slippery.
 
2013-07-17 07:04:52 AM  
A college I recently visited changed the bathrooms to gender neutral, put a sign on the door saying to lock the door when you go in. WTF So 1 person using it stops anyone else from using the other stalls or urinals.
 
2013-07-17 07:05:19 AM  
sometimes your first impression is correct. that is, that they are indeed wasting 50k a year to ponder whether or not they want to be called he or she. you can do that shiat for free while you're digging ditches. christ, i have an education in the sciences and i regret it not having been stricter. thank god i finished when i did?
 
2013-07-17 07:06:23 AM  

The Muthaship: Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.

Pragmatism is oppression.


Logic and reason are tools of Patriarchal Oppression!

//I wonder if this is why feminists and transexuals are at such loggerheads with each other. One group believes gender to be a purely social construct and the other group believes it to be hardwired in the brain. After reading the sad tale of David Reimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer ) it's hard to defend the idea that gender is malleable and purely based on one's early socialization.
 
2013-07-17 07:06:44 AM  
"Young people"

This is because they are young and have too much time on their hands.  I used to think a lot of stupid shiat like this when I was younger too.  When they grow up and get a job (if they can get a job) and move on to the next phase of their life - they will have a different view.
 
2013-07-17 07:07:41 AM  
"eau, muy gawd, like, hello and like, everything is like, about meh, and like, all descriptors are like, totally sexist and hate speech and seau uhpressive and like, we have, like, all this ever seau IMPORTANT gymnastic like, stuff about words and it's very important cause like, I'm a very serious person because, like I got these ublung glusses and they're like, totally serious and you have to care about all this cause it's like, seau uffensive and like, important and gimmie munny nao."

Next slide, please.
 
2013-07-17 07:08:01 AM  

ox45tallboy: DrPainMD: I couldn't agree more, but, since the internet never forgets and I see the direction the forces of political correctness are going, I'm going to have to say, "Stop being such a close-minded, intolerant bigot."

There. Now, in twenty years, I will be hailed as a progressive thinker who was ahead of his time, and you will be lumped in with Limbaugh, Beck, Gingrich and Stalin. Won't that be fun?

Actually, in his younger days, before the Teddy Roosevelt 'stache, Stalin... well, you be the judge.


I'd I'd hit it and quit it.

Also my PGPs are feminine.
 
2013-07-17 07:08:25 AM  
Oberlin College in Ohio

Well that is your problem right there.
 
2013-07-17 07:08:58 AM  

yourmomlovestetris: it's hard to defend the idea that gender is malleable and purely based on one's early socialization.


That reminds me of the lady I went to law school with who dressed her son in girls clothes half the time.  She took offense when I told her that was the recipe for making a serial killer.

/he'd be about 23 now
//I hope he started with her
 
2013-07-17 07:09:24 AM  

Spad31: ox45tallboy: staplermofo: Ungendered pronouns would be great.  Un-gendering bathrooms would be nice too.  If women peep on men or men hog the couch, it's a small price to pay.  I would hog the shiat out of that couch.

Why don't dudes get a couch? What the hell are women doing in the can that necessitates a couch? I want a couch to chill on in the can. I would totally call the restaurant's number on my cell and ask for my waiter and then tell him bring me another beer to the couch in the men's room. Bonus points if it's a waitress. More bonus points if she does it. Negative points if she changes gender first.

Wait..wait...you WANT to sit in the shiatter and hang out with other dudes while they piss? And you'd want food and beverages in there? What the fark is wrong with you?


The couches are traditionally in a room separate from the stalls. It's like a waiting area.
 
2013-07-17 07:09:55 AM  
"Here come Dick, he's wearing a skirt.
Here comes Jane, y'know she's sporting a chain.
Same hair, revolution... Same build, evolution.
Tomorrow who's gonna fuss?"
 
2013-07-17 07:10:23 AM  

yourmomlovestetris: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer


based only on that tale, one would likely conclude that there is no such thing as transgenderism...
 
2013-07-17 07:11:06 AM  
"You have to go to college."

"Why?"

"Because they will teach you how to be baseless arrogant, self important, dismissive and present laughable authority postures about absolute twaddle with great implied gravitas."

"Uhssome."
 
2013-07-17 07:11:44 AM  
What ever happened to "Pervert"?
 
GBB
2013-07-17 07:11:44 AM  

voodoohotdog: Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.

All for the pierced/painted/trans/gay/straight world we live in, but I saw three otherwise able bodied people rooting through garbage this morning looking for scrap. Trying to make ends meet. They need work, and we're wasting our time navel gazing. Aren't we special.


Sounds like they already found work, or at least something to do.
 
2013-07-17 07:12:47 AM  
My response to the title would be, 'You're looking at a face that does not care'
 
2013-07-17 07:13:10 AM  

Yogimus: What ever happened to "Pervert"?


I prefer 'Weirdo'
 
2013-07-17 07:13:47 AM  

Jim_Callahan: While I wasn't raised in a barn, so I can in public basically call anyone whatever they ask to be called by with a straight face, I have to admit that every time someone makes a big deal out of being identified by their obvious biological gender (or getting annoyed when you mess it up, in the case of androgynous people) my actual unspoken reaction is basically "Oh my god who the hell cares".

If shiat like this actually catches on (probably won't) I'll learn it because etiquette is a life skill, but don't expect me to use it outside of formal venues.  PC crap is and always has been an artificial waste of time that conceals an underlying problem instead of or even at the expense of actually fixing it.


You don't care because you don't struggle with it. You take it for granted.

I know of an incredibly brave person who was born a man but just announced their desire to begin the process of gender reassignment. 56 years of being referred to as the wrong gender can wear a person down.

We tend to think of something as less important if it's not something we struggle with.
 
2013-07-17 07:14:15 AM  

ox45tallboy: Rockette


I thought they were accepting people who want to pee like their dog.

jayhawk88: maudibjr: Why does this have to be so confusing.  I'm just going to keep calling everyone dude.

"Bro" also works really well.

[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x243]


I despise "Bro" with the fury of a thousand suns.  Perhaps it's because people who say "dude" aren't as aggressively obnoxious.

Spad31: Wait..wait...you WANT to sit in the shiatter and hang out with other dudes while they piss? And you'd want food and beverages in there? What the fark is wrong with you?


If you're drinking Bud, what's the difference?

kukukupo: "Young people"

This is because they are young and have too much time on their hands.  I used to think a lot of stupid shiat like this when I was younger too.  When they grow up and get a job (if they can get a job) and move on to the next phase of their life - they will have a different view.


There's your problem right there.

If you continue to have high unemployment among young people, you're only going to get more existential bullshiat permeating our culture.  Therefore, it's in everyone's interest of sanity to find these people work before the millenials decide primary colors are offensive.
 
2013-07-17 07:14:40 AM  

Crewmannumber6: Yogimus: What ever happened to "Pervert"?

I prefer 'Weirdo'


The PC term is Impulse Control Challenged.
 
2013-07-17 07:15:27 AM  

Yogimus: What ever happened to "Pervert"?


We call them "priests" now.
 
2013-07-17 07:16:22 AM  
We encountered high school students who said, I want you to call me Tractor and use pronouns like zee, zim and zer

LOL
 
2013-07-17 07:17:33 AM  

kukukupo: "Young people"

This is because they are young and have too much time on their hands.  I used to think a lot of stupid shiat like this when I was younger too.  When they grow up and get a job (if they can get a job) and move on to the next phase of their life - they will have a different view.


Out of curiosity, how many younguns and trans snowflakes are on your lawn right now?
 
2013-07-17 07:17:54 AM  
i.qkme.me

And that's all you need to know until she has to take off the Cinderella hair shirt outfit and pay bills.

On the upside, she will happily be offended for you and express great disdain upon your behalf if you're sporting an acceptable social aberration.

Downside, you will eventually offend her, too.
 
2013-07-17 07:17:59 AM  

dahmers love zombie: We encountered high school students who said, I want you to call me Tractor and use pronouns like zee, zim and zer

LOL


images.cafepress.com
 
2013-07-17 07:18:11 AM  
My preferred pronoun is whichever.
 
2013-07-17 07:19:43 AM  
Y'know, since it's in colloquial use anyway, I don't get why the generic plural hasn't been deemed by whoever is in charge as acceptable. Gender may be a wide spectrum, but we don't need as many pronouns as there are subgenres of techno.
 
2013-07-17 07:20:31 AM  

ox45tallboy: Why don't dudes get a couch? What the hell are women doing in the can that necessitates a couch? I want a couch to chill on in the can. I would totally call the restaurant's number on my cell and ask for my waiter and then tell him bring me another beer to the couch in the men's room. Bonus points if it's a waitress. More bonus points if she does it. Negative points if she changes gender first.


...and THAT is why you do not get a couch!
 
2013-07-17 07:21:23 AM  

dahmers love zombie: We encountered high school students who said, I want you to call me Tractor and use pronouns like zee, zim and zer

LOL


What's wrong with shklee?
 
2013-07-17 07:21:32 AM  

psychosis_inducing: Y'know, since it's in colloquial use anyway, I don't get why the generic plural hasn't been deemed by whoever is in charge as acceptable. Gender may be a wide spectrum, but we don't need as many pronouns as there are subgenres of techno.


Maybe they should just post their pronoun of preference chart on porch by the door of their house and glare at their friends until they stop getting it wrong.  For progress.
 
2013-07-17 07:22:58 AM  
I always figured trans would be the next "in" thing, but we shot WAY past transgender into this weird world of amorphous constantly shifting nontraditional binary gender declarations.

I guess I'm a closed minded tranny...deep down, you're either male, or female.  may not match with your body, but your core identity is one or the other.

The sad thing, I actually see all this BS reverting trans rights.  We're just barely getting to the point where governments don't require surgery to validate gender.  I see that going down the drain when some of these whackadoos demand recognition of their asexual third-gender spiritual designation on ID.
 
2013-07-17 07:22:58 AM  
I'm fine with that so long as "ze, zim," and "zer" never catch on. Because that's just ridiculous and we're all going to sound like first generation French immigrants and the "Ze missiles, I am le tired" joke is going to get really old really quickly.
 
2013-07-17 07:23:15 AM  
If that happened to me at Olive Garden, I'd say: "Your gender pronoun is I didn't come here for a lecture, keeping your farking breadsticks, I'm going next door to Red Lobster. "
 
2013-07-17 07:23:30 AM  
I have no problem with the concept or the practice, but

"We encountered high school students who said, I want you to call me Tractor and use pronouns like zee, zim and zer."

...now you're just farking with me.
 
2013-07-17 07:24:46 AM  

psychosis_inducing: Y'know, since it's in colloquial use anyway, I don't get why the generic plural hasn't been deemed by whoever is in charge as acceptable. Gender may be a wide spectrum, but we don't need as many pronouns as there are subgenres of techno.


Spivak sounds like it could be a form of old-school European techno.
 
2013-07-17 07:25:10 AM  
STFU and bring me some garlicky breadsticks...and salad, and don't put all the dressing in the bottom of the bowl for chrissakes!
 
2013-07-17 07:25:20 AM  

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I always figured trans would be the next "in" thing, but we shot WAY past transgender into this weird world of amorphous constantly shifting nontraditional binary gender declarations.

I guess I'm a closed minded tranny...deep down, you're either male, or female.  may not match with your body, but your core identity is one or the other.

The sad thing, I actually see all this BS reverting trans rights.  We're just barely getting to the point where governments don't require surgery to validate gender.  I see that going down the drain when some of these whackadoos demand recognition of their asexual third-gender spiritual designation on ID.


The point isn't the gum, the point is cracking it loudly and getting terribly eye roll-y when asked to stop.  You know, by the oppressive folks.
 
2013-07-17 07:25:44 AM  
If someone does not want to be identified by "he" or "she" because that is based on whatever reproductive organs they possess, maybe they would prefer to be identified by a gender-neutral organ. I suggest the terminal end of the digestive tract.
 
2013-07-17 07:25:58 AM  

voodoohotdog: Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.

All for the pierced/painted/trans/gay/straight world we live in, but I saw three otherwise able bodied people rooting through garbage this morning looking for scrap. Trying to make ends meet. They need work, and we're wasting our time navel gazing. Aren't we special.


Because we can only solve one problem or address one set of concerns at a time? If that is the case, let's start with the elementary problem that most of this country can't do basic informal or formal logic and forget everything else.
 
2013-07-17 07:26:58 AM  

Donnchadha: God Is My Co-Pirate: Hey hey hey, the couch is awesome.  Leave our couch alone.

All in all you're just a-nother brick in the toilet-tank-to-help-us-conserve-water-by-taking-up-space-so-the-toilet -flushes-with-less-water


I think I need to redo the meter on that line...


All in all you're just another prick in the stall...
 
2013-07-17 07:28:37 AM  

CheatCommando: voodoohotdog: Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.

All for the pierced/painted/trans/gay/straight world we live in, but I saw three otherwise able bodied people rooting through garbage this morning looking for scrap. Trying to make ends meet. They need work, and we're wasting our time navel gazing. Aren't we special.

Because we can only solve one problem or address one set of concerns at a time? If that is the case, let's start with the elementary problem that most of this country can't do basic informal or formal logic and forget everything else.


More importantly, did you ask what the starving poor scroungers saw as their personal gender identification construct before pointing out the aluminum cans they missed?
 
2013-07-17 07:29:38 AM  
If we are now required to recognize an individual's preferred gender pronoun then fine, I am selecting mine:

You: icky-icky-icky-icky-kapang-zoop-boing
Him: yabba-dabba-doodle-do
His: owowowowowowowowowowowowowowow-ooooop-ow

Anyone who does not respect my gender identification is an evil monster who makes Hitler look like a caring and loving pro-zionist gentleman.
 
2013-07-17 07:29:59 AM  

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I always figured trans would be the next "in" thing, but we shot WAY past transgender into this weird world of amorphous constantly shifting nontraditional binary gender declarations.

I guess I'm a closed minded tranny...deep down, you're either male, or female.  may not match with your body, but your core identity is one or the other.

The sad thing, I actually see all this BS reverting trans rights.  We're just barely getting to the point where governments don't require surgery to validate gender.  I see that going down the drain when some of these whackadoos demand recognition of their asexual third-gender spiritual designation on ID.


That's actually the point that the trans woman brought up on the report yesterday. She said something like "I just got into this gender. Could we maybe wait more than a year before dismantling it?"
 
2013-07-17 07:30:28 AM  
I'm cool with this, as long as I can still just say "Diet Coke" without looking up from my menu.
 
2013-07-17 07:30:59 AM  
There is a less than oft considered notion about university life that holds that, should somebody stick their head so far up their ass that they can chew their own food twice, that they might come up with with an astounding bit of insight.  So far, no.
 
2013-07-17 07:31:02 AM  

bighairyguy: If that happened to me at Olive Garden, I'd say: "Your gender pronoun is I didn't come here for a lecture, keeping your farking breadsticks, I'm going next door to Red Lobster. "


You takin' her to Red Lobster with the cheddar biscuits? The fam ain't eatin' cheddar biscuits, but this random broad is eatin' cheddar biscuits?
 
2013-07-17 07:31:03 AM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: Donnchadha: God Is My Co-Pirate: Hey hey hey, the couch is awesome.  Leave our couch alone.

All in all you're just a-nother brick in the toilet-tank-to-help-us-conserve-water-by-taking-up-space-so-the-toilet -flushes-with-less-water


I think I need to redo the meter on that line...

All in all you're just another prick in the stall...


your just another gay in teh gay
 
2013-07-17 07:32:06 AM  

bunner: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I always figured trans would be the next "in" thing, but we shot WAY past transgender into this weird world of amorphous constantly shifting nontraditional binary gender declarations.

I guess I'm a closed minded tranny...deep down, you're either male, or female.  may not match with your body, but your core identity is one or the other.

The sad thing, I actually see all this BS reverting trans rights.  We're just barely getting to the point where governments don't require surgery to validate gender.  I see that going down the drain when some of these whackadoos demand recognition of their asexual third-gender spiritual designation on ID.

The point isn't the gum, the point is cracking it loudly and getting terribly eye roll-y when asked to stop.  You know, by the oppressive folks.


I hear ya, it just gets on my nerves.  A "normal" person has an unfortunate "you're offending me!" encounter with one of these attention whores, it sours them to us normal trans people, who just want to be recognized as normal folks.

Most trans people aren't going to spazz if you use the wrong gender pronoun.  Hell, a good chunk won't even correct you, because it just causes more unwanted attention.  If you ain't sure, feel free to ask.
 
2013-07-17 07:32:13 AM  

bighairyguy: If that happened to me at Olive Garden, I'd say: "Your gender pronoun is I didn't come here for a lecture, keeping your farking breadsticks, I'm going next door to Red Lobster. "


Which is owned by Olive Garden and will probably have the same policy.
 
2013-07-17 07:33:13 AM  

bunner: CheatCommando: voodoohotdog: Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.

All for the pierced/painted/trans/gay/straight world we live in, but I saw three otherwise able bodied people rooting through garbage this morning looking for scrap. Trying to make ends meet. They need work, and we're wasting our time navel gazing. Aren't we special.

Because we can only solve one problem or address one set of concerns at a time? If that is the case, let's start with the elementary problem that most of this country can't do basic informal or formal logic and forget everything else.

More importantly, did you ask what the starving poor scroungers saw as their personal gender identification construct before pointing out the aluminum cans they missed?


Or maybe, you know, offer to buy them a meal, even if it was at Subway or McDerp's?
 
2013-07-17 07:33:42 AM  

The Muthaship: That reminds me of the lady I went to law school with who dressed her son in girls clothes half the time. She took offense when I told her that was the recipe for making a serial killer.

/he'd be about 23 now
//I hope he started with her


Did the kid want to dress in girl clothes or did the mom just decide to do it?
b/c if the kid wanted it, fine. If the kid didn't want it...wtf?!

Sometimes I feel sorry for men with their restrictive dress choices...especially now in the summer when I can get away with wearing pretty much whatever I want(especially since a lot of workplaces are changing their dress codes...it's like as a woman I can wear whatever the hell I want -within reason) but the men are still stuck in their button-downs and trousers.
 
2013-07-17 07:34:15 AM  
It is you're own fault for dining at Olive Garden.
 
2013-07-17 07:35:14 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: there are plenty of Fabulous people who don't go to 11 with the gay thing. Just because he is gay doesn't mean he needs corrective surgery.


You do understand that gay and transgender are actually different things, don't you? There are transgendered females (genetically male) who are attracted to women and vice versa.
 
2013-07-17 07:35:18 AM  

Jim_Callahan: While I wasn't raised in a barn, so I can in public basically call anyone whatever they ask to be called by with a straight face, I have to admit that every time someone makes a big deal out of being identified by their obvious biological gender (or getting annoyed when you mess it up, in the case of androgynous people) my actual unspoken reaction is basically "Oh my god who the hell cares".

If shiat like this actually catches on (probably won't) I'll learn it because etiquette is a life skill, but don't expect me to use it outside of formal venues.  PC crap is and always has been an artificial waste of time that conceals an underlying problem instead of or even at the expense of actually fixing it.


Catches on? Read that last sentence and see if it doesn't describe the last 20 years in Congress.
 
2013-07-17 07:35:29 AM  

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I hear ya, it just gets on my nerves. A "normal" person has an unfortunate "you're offending me!" encounter with one of these attention whores, it sours them to us normal trans people, who just want to be recognized as normal folks.


like!

unfortunately, us "cis" people rarely hear about trans people, and when we do, we generally just hear about the attention whores...
 
2013-07-17 07:35:39 AM  
It'll get over it.
 
2013-07-17 07:36:04 AM  
You know, I simply don't care. If you look like a "he", I'm going to call you "he". If you look like a "she", I'm going to call you "she". If I can't tell, I'll pick one. And I really don't care if your current neurosis makes you want a different one. If you want to be called one or the other, present yourself so that is visually obvious. It isn't everyone else's responsibility to figure out your issues.
 
2013-07-17 07:36:58 AM  

Fromageball: The Muthaship: That reminds me of the lady I went to law school with who dressed her son in girls clothes half the time. She took offense when I told her that was the recipe for making a serial killer.

/he'd be about 23 now
//I hope he started with her

Did the kid want to dress in girl clothes or did the mom just decide to do it?
b/c if the kid wanted it, fine. If the kid didn't want it...wtf?!

Sometimes I feel sorry for men with their restrictive dress choices...especially now in the summer when I can get away with wearing pretty much whatever I want(especially since a lot of workplaces are changing their dress codes...it's like as a woman I can wear whatever the hell I want -within reason) but the men are still stuck in their button-downs and trousers.


Sure, but on the other hand, men can get away with buying a lot fewer clothes.
 
2013-07-17 07:37:01 AM  

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: who just want to be recognized as normal folks.


That's an ostensibly lofty goal but I'm pretty sure Ward Cleaver is out blowing bums for SoCo in the Greyhound station bog in a tutu while listening to the Scissor Sisters and slamming meth with a turkey baster fit, so good luck on the normal index.  See, the problem with moving everything that doesn't fit comfortably in one's private Idaho into the margins is that eventually, we all end up in an S&M crack dungeon in N. Hollywood and completely out of people to be oppressed by.  Which isn't all that attractive if you can't change the channel.
 
2013-07-17 07:38:09 AM  
The people of Universe Gamma agree to go on a date with Yivo. But when Yivo doesn't seem to be making any kind of commitment, they decide to dump shklim. However, when they prepare to give shklim the news, Yivo proposes to Universe Gamma, and they accept. Everyone in Universe Gamma enters Yivo's universe and lives on top of shklim, which looks very similar to the concept of
 
2013-07-17 07:38:10 AM  

Fromageball: Did the kid want to dress in girl clothes or did the mom just decide to do it?


She decided to do it.  She wanted him to know what it was like.  It was a parenting choice.  She thought he's see what it felt like to be treated differently based on what gender you were perceived to be.

The f*cking kid was 3.

She was a crazy b*tch in general.
 
2013-07-17 07:38:57 AM  

Smackledorfer: Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.

Yep, it is the lgbt civil rights movement that destroys our ability to do math and science jobs for less money than a company can hire someone in china to do.

Truly you understand world economics and international business models.



Do you understand the drive by universities to be top ranked as a research university, and the cheapest way to do that is to hire a bunch of idiots who "research" gender and women's rights issues?

Or other liberal arts BS.  They can hire 2 or 3 of those professors for the cost it takes to make one lab for a physics professor to research in.

Economics.  Now I'm using the word too.
 
2013-07-17 07:39:06 AM  

CheatCommando: Or maybe, you know, offer to buy them a meal, even if it was at Subway or McDerp's?


I do stuff like that all the time.  Lately I'm having trouble feeding me and technically, I have three  jobs.   :  /  I sort of doubt this piece of fluff in TFA article is gonna save the world this week.
 
2013-07-17 07:39:48 AM  
i26.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-17 07:40:01 AM  
i26.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-17 07:41:19 AM  

Fromageball: ...it's like as a woman I can wear whatever the hell I want -within reason) but the men are still stuck in their button-downs and trousers.


And they wonder why they earn less...
 
2013-07-17 07:41:28 AM  

proteus_b: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I hear ya, it just gets on my nerves. A "normal" person has an unfortunate "you're offending me!" encounter with one of these attention whores, it sours them to us normal trans people, who just want to be recognized as normal folks.

like!

unfortunately, us "cis" people rarely hear about trans people, and when we do, we generally just hear about the attention whores...


Most trans people stay really quiet about the topic (for obvious reasons). We don't WANT the attention the AWs thrive on.  We just want to be the gender our brains identify us as.

As for wanting to hear about trans, Fark has a pretty decently sized Trans Brigade.  If you ever want a question answered, toss it in a tranny thread, one of us will get to you soon enough.
 
2013-07-17 07:42:11 AM  
Wear a name tag. I call you what it says.
 
2013-07-17 07:42:18 AM  
Because proles don't need a gender.
Amirite?
 
2013-07-17 07:42:44 AM  

Bontesla: You don't care because you don't struggle with it. You take it for granted.


No, I don't care because  I don't care.  I grew up with several siblings, some dogs, and a name that's got an ambiguous pronunciation, gender and ethnicity (no, my handle isn't my actual name, I'm not that dumb).  I've been called everything from my little sister's name to the dog's name, had my gender reversed on official paperwork repeatedly, and had people pronounce my surname in a manner consistent with a region that my actual ancestors would automatically have murdered and vice-versa.

I deal with it an accept any designation that correctly singles me out from the people I'm standing next to, because I'm not a self-important prat that thinks that the basic functionality of communication comes second to my own delusion that other people should find my personal shiat important.

That's the thing about your personal issues, they're personal as much because they aren't relevant to other people most of the time as because they're disproportionately important to you.  Dealing with that and not taking offense is one of the fundamental characteristics of an adult as opposed to a child.

//I sincerely doubt that your friend is getting reassignment surgery simply because she's sick of being called "mister", I'd guess it has something to do with feeling like she's actually in the wrong body and wanting to fix that... which, again, personal issue, so up to her to fix as she pleases.  Also not something making a new pronoun for her was going to fix.
//At least by default I'd give her more credit than that, just assuming she's a typical random person.
 
2013-07-17 07:43:58 AM  
if you're totally for gender equality you wouldn't care what i call you
 
2013-07-17 07:44:06 AM  
I was SO hoping this was a "real" consumerist story.

99.9% I'm not looking to have sex with you, so I don't care what your sexual preference is.  If I am interested, I'll spend some time getting to know you.

The transgendered people I've met would make the craziest readhead seem sane.
 
2013-07-17 07:45:12 AM  

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: one of us will get to you soon enough.


^ Limbaugh was right!
 
2013-07-17 07:45:59 AM  

ox45tallboy: They're calling for more fluid categories beyond just male and female, as NPR's Margot Adler explains.

I'm totally fine with people who were born with a different sexual identity than what matches their naughty bits. It happens sometimes, and these days, there is no reason not to live a happy and fulfilled life wearing the gender in which you feel comfortable, and having sexual relations with whichever consenting adults wish to do so. Having said that, if your gender identity is changing,on a regular basis, perhaps you need to seek professional help. This is not normal or healthy, and other people catering to this whim is not helpful to your mental health.


Nor our mental health.
 
2013-07-17 07:46:20 AM  
Let's just go with it/it/its. Otherwise it's too confusing.
 
2013-07-17 07:46:28 AM  
Take out all of the pictures of those who came before you.  Your ancestors, family, your linear heritage.

Look into their eyes.

You are the apex of their genetics, hopes and dreams and the spark of who they are and who they were that carries them into the future.  You are the only reason they ever lived.

Stop embarrassing the piss out of them with overwrought malarkey.  You're welcome.
 
2013-07-17 07:48:50 AM  
I'd complain to the manageress.
 
2013-07-17 07:49:35 AM  

Aulus: OK, maybe it's because I am hetero and in  my mid-sixties, but were I in such a situation and someone I had never met chose to introduce themself that way, I'd get up and walk out.

Look, I do not care how you conduct yourself gender or sexual wise in private, but do not feel the need to slap me in the face with it when we are not interacting intimately and/or in public and especially if we have never met and are unlikely to in the future.

IOW, STFU and act like an adult.


I don't believe anyone actually talks like that--that's the 'joke'. If I introduced myself by saying "Hi, I'm CowardlyLion, and I'm a heteronormative, cisgendered postpostgrad male," it would be just as cumbersome and annoying (assuming I'm introducing myself to a stranger and there was no preestablished want or need for all of that information or terminology).
 
2013-07-17 07:50:40 AM  
In over 10 years on Fark, I don't believe I've ever seen such a combination of baiting headline plus nasty comments.

Westboro would be proud.

/fade out with 'welcome to fark' memes
 
2013-07-17 07:51:09 AM  

Sybarite: I'd complain to the manageress.


Cockman oppressor.
 
2013-07-17 07:51:43 AM  

Sybarite: I'd complain to the manageress.


That's managerarian, manageringist, mana.. Yo, biznatch, da soup cold!
 
2013-07-17 07:52:31 AM  

CheatCommando: bighairyguy: If that happened to me at Olive Garden, I'd say: "Your gender pronoun is I didn't come here for a lecture, keeping your farking breadsticks, I'm going next door to Red Lobster. "

Which is owned by Olive Garden and will probably have the same policy.


I know that, that why they're usually right next door.  Just spinning the wheel and hoping for a server who keep their personal issues in the kitchen where they belong.
 
2013-07-17 07:53:42 AM  

TheGogmagog: I was SO hoping this was a "real" consumerist story.

99.9% I'm not looking to have sex with you, so I don't care what your sexual preference is.  If I am interested, I'll spend some time getting to know you.


This doesn't really have anything to do with sexual preference, from what I'm reading. Nobody taking the time to explain their preferred gender pronouns to you is trying to get in your pants.
 
2013-07-17 07:53:43 AM  

UNC_Samurai: bighairyguy: If that happened to me at Olive Garden, I'd say: "Your gender pronoun is I didn't come here for a lecture, keeping your farking breadsticks, I'm going next door to Red Lobster. "

You takin' her to Red Lobster with the cheddar biscuits? The fam ain't eatin' cheddar biscuits, but this random broad is eatin' cheddar biscuits?


I can stay home and eat RL cheddar biscuits.  The mix is $5.98 at Sam's Club.
 
2013-07-17 07:54:08 AM  
Since I mentioned questions, here's the answers to the most common questions:

Since I was little.
The bathroom my "brain" gender identifies with.
It stops working reliably on hormones.
Very expensive, and most insurance doesn't cover it.
It's not contagious.
No I can't have kids.

And, the biggest question of all....

Do you normally ask people about their genitals, and major surgeries they may have had?
 
2013-07-17 07:54:18 AM  

Todd300: Westboro would be proud.


Yeah, I think anybody who might be less than enthusiastic about helping nudge their native language into the tree chipper one more time probably wants to kill queers for Jesus.  Baseless hyperbole.  How does it work?
 
2013-07-17 07:54:27 AM  

ox45tallboy: [nyulocal.com image 750x350]

Or the direction you prefer to roll your wheelchair, I guess.


That's what the 'family' rest rooms are for.

/The sign is missing hoverounds.
 
2013-07-17 07:54:42 AM  

Bontesla: You don't care because you don't struggle with it. You take it for granted.


I have many transgender friends. Not a single one of them has attempted to invent an alternate set of pronouns for themselves. They started out as one set of existing pronouns and moved to another existing set of pronouns.

This personal pronoun shiat is the epitome of bored, spoiled, suburban white kid problems.

If I'm ever presented with the statement "my preferred pronouns are X/Y/Z" my response will be "how about I just call you narcissist?"
 
2013-07-17 07:55:37 AM  

psychicdeath99: If someone does not want to be identified by "he" or "she" because that is based on whatever reproductive organs they possess, maybe they would prefer to be identified by a gender-neutral organ. I suggest the terminal end of the digestive tract.


Your logic is impeccable. Even if they didn't take your suggestion, I'd still be cool with calling some gender-non-specific person "Spleen" or "Toe".
 
2013-07-17 07:57:18 AM  

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: No I can't have kids.


People really ask if you can get pregnant? That's just plain silly.
 
2013-07-17 07:57:47 AM  
Just ask

Do you prefer Mr. Miss or Miss Mr.
 
2013-07-17 07:59:16 AM  
I am open minded, friend of hetero,homo, confused, intersexed, and whatever gender assignment you are calling yourself.

As long as I do not have to hear about it all the damn time I could care less. If you keep whining about it I will then either tell you to shut up or offer an opinion you might not like.

I do not have to care about Jews for Jesus or that even though you look like steve buscemi but want to dress like Carmen Miranda. My only care is that I am polite and that I can get to the end of the day with the least amount of white noise.

We all eat shiat and die.
 
2013-07-17 07:59:37 AM  
Please refer to me as Ford F-150 Supercab.  My preferred gender pronouns are Ford/Ferd.  I am a transautomotivist.
 
2013-07-17 08:00:00 AM  
And then one charming daffy young woman told me, oh, yes, today, I'm just using made up pronouns.

Daffy. The word you are looking for is "daffy".
 
2013-07-17 08:00:07 AM  

cwolf20: Just ask

Do you prefer Mr. Miss or Miss Mr.


MIZZZZZ MY NAME IS MIZZZ FRASER!
 
2013-07-17 08:00:18 AM  
I guess I should point out that the hottest girl I ever dated, I think my chances greatly improved because I offered sympathy towards trans people (specifically the lack of funding for surgery...) She had a trans ex (I didn't know that at the time) and my open-mindedness must have kept that conversation going. I'm a damned attractive guy (my mom says, anyhow...), but this girl was still way out of my league. That hot. Anyways, maybe you guys should think of it like the "bro-choice" thing meanwhile...
 
2013-07-17 08:01:39 AM  
We encountered high school students who said, I want you to call me Tractor and use pronouns like zee, zim and zer.

No... If you're not down with he/him/his or she/her/hers, you're getting singular they/them/theirs... You don't get to invent new words and unilaterally add them to the language and force everyone else to use them...

Besides, those words don't even work well as an invented set of pronouns! I can see "zee" and "zim" as analogues of "he" and "him", but WTF is "zer"?? It would seem to be an analogue of "her", but that inflection is already covered by "zim"! If it's meant to be used for the possessive, it just doesn't flow well... Maybe make it "zers" or "zis" instead...
 
2013-07-17 08:02:01 AM  

Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but much of the industrialized world was talking about this a decade ago.
 
2013-07-17 08:02:10 AM  
we've got to nip this heterophobia in the bud before it gets out of hand.
 
2013-07-17 08:02:26 AM  

Jim_Callahan: No, I don't care because I don't care. I grew up with several siblings, some dogs, and a name that's got an ambiguous pronunciation, gender and ethnicity (no, my handle isn't my actual name, I'm not that dumb). I've been called everything from my little sister's name to the dog's name, had my gender reversed on official paperwork repeatedly, and had people pronounce my surname in a manner consistent with a region that my actual ancestors would automatically have murdered and vice-versa.


076dd0a50e0c1255009e-bd4b8aabaca29897bc751dfaf75b290c.r40.cf1.rackcdn.com

We named the dog Indiana.
 
2013-07-17 08:03:01 AM  

DrPainMD: There. Now, in twenty years, I will be hailed as a progressive thinker who was ahead of his time, and you will be lumped in with Limbaugh, Beck, Gingrich and Stalin. Won't that be fun?


In 50, you'll be seen as no different from Limbaugh if you hold a single view that's not PC in the future. Just look at the crap Heinlein gets for his blatant racism and sexism in Starship Troopers, written in the '50s, with a Filipino protagonist and a majority of naval officers being women. In the '50s. Or Tolkien, who was sexist for not having more women in the story he started writing in the '30s which only had women being some of the most powerful warriors in the story. Go back further, and when a slave-owner says to other slave-owners, "You know this may not be a good idea. In fact, it might be pretty farking immoral," he's viewed as a colossal hypocrite rather than a guy breaking with traditional thought.

So, yea, you'll be Limbaugh. So will I. None of us get out of here without being bigoted farks in someone's eyes in the future.
 
2013-07-17 08:03:33 AM  

bunner: CheatCommando: Or maybe, you know, offer to buy them a meal, even if it was at Subway or McDerp's?

I do stuff like that all the time.  Lately I'm having trouble feeding me and technically, I have three  jobs.   :  /  I sort of doubt this piece of fluff in TFA article is gonna save the world this week.


I was more pointing out that the original poster claimed this was such a major problem that we could not work on other lesser problems as well,  and then ignored it.  Which is fairly typical - he doesn't care about the supposed problem, he's just being an asshole.
 
2013-07-17 08:03:48 AM  

Smackledorfer: Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.

Yep, it is the lgbt civil rights movement that destroys our ability to do math and science jobs for less money than a company can hire someone in china to do.

Truly you understand world economics and international business models.


Why not respond to his argument instead of deliberately mischaracterizing it in order to put him on the defensive?
 
2013-07-17 08:03:54 AM  

UNC_Samurai: We named the dog Indiana.


I liked that dog!
 
2013-07-17 08:04:20 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: IsThatYourFinalAnswer: No I can't have kids.

People really ask if you can get pregnant? That's just plain silly.


Yeah, people ask.  Granted, I do live in rural Midwest.  We're just now getting used to African Americans living in town.
 
2013-07-17 08:04:25 AM  

The Southern Logic Company: Please refer to me as Ford F-150 Supercab.  My preferred gender pronouns are Ford/Ferd.  I am a transautomotivist.


I prefer to be identified as transwarp

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-07-17 08:05:23 AM  
I am sure that the Fark comments on an article about the gender spectrum is about the last useful place to post this but hey, why not?

Gender is not binary.

Not all people are simply Male or Female.

Regardless of how you define Male or Female, there are people who are both or neither.

If you want to go with the simplistic "is the 23rd set of chromosomes XX or XY?"  You will find that there are people with more than just two, see Aneuploidy.

If you decide to go with sex organs, there are people with both and people with neither.

Needless to say, if you go with characteristics or other physiology you see a wide range of characteristics among people that cross gender norms.

It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation.  Just because you identify strongly with one gender, and perhaps even look the part, does not mean that everyone does or that everyone identifies with either gender.
 
2013-07-17 08:05:23 AM  
How about "I'm here to have dinner, not indulge your psychoses"?
 
2013-07-17 08:07:04 AM  

Smackledorfer: Yep, it is the lgbt civil rights movement that destroys our ability to do math and science jobs for less money than a company can hire someone in china to do.

Truly you understand world economics and international business models.


by your logic, wouldn't it be cheaper to outsource our queer studies programs as well? why only sciences? hell, six hundred left-handed homosexuals with perfect pitch are born every second in peking...
 
2013-07-17 08:08:08 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: I have no problem with the concept or the practice, but

"We encountered high school students who said, I want you to call me Tractor and use pronouns like zee, zim and zer."

...now you're just farking with me.


Yeah, I'm pretty damn liberal and I still think this is stupid. And probably a sign that they were spoiled as a child and have grown up expecting the world to conform to their wishes and beliefs.  That said, if someone wants me to refer to them as the opposite of their apparent sex, I'm cool with it - it's a courtesy that costs me nothing and makes them happy; it's just polite.

Expecting me to memorize awkward and pointless terms you've just made up, though? Fark off.
 
2013-07-17 08:08:55 AM  
why don't they ahve DRUGS to treat this condition?  like WELLBUTRIN or ZOLOFT
 
2013-07-17 08:11:07 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: Bontesla: Jim_Callahan: While I wasn't raised in a barn, so I can in public basically call anyone whatever they ask to be called by with a straight face, I have to admit that every time someone makes a big deal out of being identified by their obvious biological gender (or getting annoyed when you mess it up, in the case of androgynous people) my actual unspoken reaction is basically "Oh my god who the hell cares".

If shiat like this actually catches on (probably won't) I'll learn it because etiquette is a life skill, but don't expect me to use it outside of formal venues.  PC crap is and always has been an artificial waste of time that conceals an underlying problem instead of or even at the expense of actually fixing it.

You don't care because you don't struggle with it. You take it for granted.

I know of an incredibly brave person who was born a man but just announced their desire to begin the process of gender reassignment. 56 years of being referred to as the wrong gender can wear a person down.

We tend to think of something as less important if it's not something we struggle with.

there are plenty of Fabulous people who don't go to 11 with the gay thing. Just because he is gay doesn't mean he needs corrective surgery.


Identifying how you'd like to be addressed isn't going to 11. You're just being silly.
 
2013-07-17 08:11:07 AM  

proteus_b: yourmomlovestetris: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

based only on that tale, one would likely conclude that there is no such thing as transgenderism...


That's what you take from that?

I'd say based on that tale, one would likely conclude that gender identity is hardwired in the brain is not taught or learned, or "malleable".
 
2013-07-17 08:11:33 AM  
As long as they have a pretty face, a great body and a good set of coconuts I have no problem porking them up the kazoo.
 
2013-07-17 08:13:32 AM  

boinkingbill: As long as they have a pretty face, a great body and a good set of coconuts I have no problem porking them up the kazoo.


More or less this

A warm hole is a warm hole
 
2013-07-17 08:13:42 AM  
I'll call you Don/Dawn.
 
2013-07-17 08:14:00 AM  
And the tail continues to wag the dog.
 
2013-07-17 08:14:02 AM  
Hi I'm Ken. I use she/her/ma'am/miss/mrs he/him/mr/sir and IT, pick one.
 
2013-07-17 08:14:18 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: "We encountered high school students who said, I want you to call me Tractor and use pronouns like zee, zim and zer."


"That's nice, I will refer to you as 'food slave' you may call me either 'Master' or 'Dread Lord'. As a Dread Lord, my personal pronoun supersedes yours. Now go get your supervisor, food slave, so that I may explain to him why I am leaving your establishment."
 
2013-07-17 08:15:12 AM  

scanman61: I'd say based on that tale, one would likely conclude that gender identity is hardwired in the brain is not taught or learned, or "malleable".


Indeed what I meant to say. But I am having a stupid day... about 10,000th in a row. Pure dumb luck...
 
2013-07-17 08:15:31 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Bontesla: You don't care because you don't struggle with it. You take it for granted.

I have many transgender friends. Not a single one of them has attempted to invent an alternate set of pronouns for themselves. They started out as one set of existing pronouns and moved to another existing set of pronouns.

This personal pronoun shiat is the epitome of bored, spoiled, suburban white kid problems.

If I'm ever presented with the statement "my preferred pronouns are X/Y/Z" my response will be "how about I just call you narcissist?"


The goal isn't to create a new identity but to raise awareness.
 
2013-07-17 08:15:33 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: As a Dread Lord


Approves:

myriadmagputer.com
 
2013-07-17 08:15:38 AM  
I still don't know why "herm" hasn't caught on.
 
2013-07-17 08:15:38 AM  

Jon iz teh kewl: why don't they ahve have DRUGS to treat this condition?  like WELLBUTRIN or ZOLOFT


How do you know that these dummies aren't "genderqueer" because of Wellbutrin/Zoloft/Ritalin or whatever it is their parents gave them as kids so the parents would be 'left alone'?
 
2013-07-17 08:15:45 AM  
A couple of decades ago, I had decided I really wished there was a genderless pronoun in English to use for all humans to avoid all this.
 
2013-07-17 08:16:57 AM  

Mock26: If we are now required to recognize an individual's preferred gender pronoun then fine, I am selecting mine:

You: icky-icky-icky-icky-kapang-zoop-boing
Him: yabba-dabba-doodle-do
His: owowowowowowowowowowowowowowow-ooooop-ow

Anyone who does not respect my gender identification is an evil monster who makes Hitler look like a caring and loving pro-zionist gentleman.


yababoon.com
 
2013-07-17 08:17:05 AM  
The correct answer is: be open minded and cool about other people, AND be open minded and cool about the language they use, because hey, shiat's all a little fluid.

Don't be an uptight dick.
 
2013-07-17 08:18:00 AM  

bbcard1: I still don't know why "herm" hasn't caught on.


Because of the dick statues, I'm gonna guess.
 
2013-07-17 08:18:05 AM  

Bontesla: The goal isn't to create a new identity but to raise awareness.


Excellent. In the future you may refer to me as "His August Presence" or "Dread Lord" so that we can further raise awareness of the oppressiveness of gendered pronouns.

/[yourenothelping.jpg]
 
2013-07-17 08:18:05 AM  
Hi I'm Farkin' XXX XXXXX and my PGP is Master. Furthermore I will only respond to statements that both begin and end with "Sir" and will not be paying my bill if these guide lines are not met.

I have friends all over the spectrum, all of them want to be treated like a normal person, which they are.

/I hate people who take themselves too seriously
//sometimes the LGBTQUBF community goes too far
 
2013-07-17 08:18:58 AM  

IAAl: I am sure that the Fark comments on an article about the gender spectrum is about the last useful place to post this but hey, why not?

Gender is not binary.

Not all people are simply Male or Female.

Regardless of how you define Male or Female, there are people who are both or neither.

If you want to go with the simplistic "is the 23rd set of chromosomes XX or XY?"  You will find that there are people with more than just two, see Aneuploidy.

If you decide to go with sex organs, there are people with both and people with neither.

Needless to say, if you go with characteristics or other physiology you see a wide range of characteristics among people that cross gender norms.

It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation.  Just because you identify strongly with one gender, and perhaps even look the part, does not mean that everyone does or that everyone identifies with either gender.


You're confusing "butch" and "fem" as actual core psych identities.  Gender identity is binary.  It may not match the genitals you are born with, but it's one or the other.  It's a very core component of the human mind.

Yes, you can be a femmy male. (hi Ghastly!)  You can be a butch female.  You can be a male who enjoys stereotypical female activities and norms, and vice versa.  None of this has any bearing on your core gender identity.

I hear it all the time, "Well, I'm male BUT (insert cross-gender activities)".

Trust me, if you IDed as male this week, female next, 70%/30% for two weeks, totally asexual after that....you would be mentally screwed up.  Hell, look at the mental/emotional disorders "simple" transgender people come with!
 
2013-07-17 08:19:14 AM  

bbcard1: I still don't know why "herm" hasn't caught on.


img118.imageshack.us
 
2013-07-17 08:20:08 AM  

BowtoMogul: //sometimes the LGBTQUBF community goes too far


Better have otherkin in there someplace, oppressor.

/qufb?
//seriously?
 
2013-07-17 08:20:25 AM  
"Hello my name is Pope Francis and I use the is/eius/ei pronouns."
 
2013-07-17 08:20:35 AM  
I want to be called TIm The Enchanter

and i will just call everyone else "you", that is all inclusive.
 
2013-07-17 08:21:22 AM  
For some reason, I can't see that conversation taking place at an Olive Garden.
 
2013-07-17 08:22:26 AM  
I treat everyone who thinks they need language changed to their personal preference the same way I treat my 10 year old niece when she makes up a word and thinks it's cool. I pat her on the head, say, "That's nice, dear" and laugh as I walk away.
 
2013-07-17 08:22:44 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: BowtoMogul: //sometimes the LGBTQUBF community goes too far

Better have otherkin in there someplace, oppressor.

/qufb?
//seriously?


Questioning, Uninterested, Biased and Furry

/I forgot the A
 
2013-07-17 08:24:12 AM  

Jon iz teh kewl: why don't they ahve DRUGS to treat this condition? like WELLBUTRIN or ZOLOFT


The insistence on the binary nature of gender is actually pretty much a western hang up. Perhaps you should take the drugs?
 
2013-07-17 08:24:56 AM  

bunner: [i.qkme.me image 400x600]

And that's all you need to know until she has to take off the Cinderella hair shirt outfit and pay bills.

On the upside, she will happily be offended for you and express great disdain upon your behalf if you're sporting an acceptable social aberration.

Downside, you will eventually offend her, too.


I target those types for instant offense for my personal gratification.
Crunchy, smelly, dirty, freaks.
 
2013-07-17 08:24:57 AM  
i512.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-17 08:27:53 AM  
But we can still pick on furies right?
 
2013-07-17 08:28:12 AM  
Ha ha. Subby's afraid of someone else's sexuality. Pussy... or do you prefer puzzee?
 
2013-07-17 08:28:32 AM  

Duke_leto_Atredes: But we can still pick on furies right?


At your peril.

Those guys were bad ass in Big Trouble in Little China.....
 
2013-07-17 08:29:03 AM  
I find that people of every sexual orientation answer to gender neutral forms of address. I use "Hey, shiat head!"
 
2013-07-17 08:29:22 AM  

ox45tallboy: Or the direction you prefer to roll your wheelchair, I guess.


Oh sure, but only if you're white and bald....
 
2013-07-17 08:29:42 AM  
simple solution: do not use pronouns or just use one--"it"

people make things so difficult
 
2013-07-17 08:30:10 AM  
There are a lot of guys in this thread with a lot of latent anger towards themselves and society because what they assumed were hard rules about gender and sexuality have changed. The rules you adhere to don't give you anything tangible. You aren't a "real man" because you played with trucks and roll your eyes at a rack of pink dress shirts. Following cultural norms is all well and good, until you've become so distant to the reasons and historical context that you're enforcing them - as evidenced in this thread - with such enthusiasm and vitriol - for the sake of just making others feel like outsiders.

Some people are different. Learn to deal with it.
 
2013-07-17 08:30:24 AM  

here to help: Ha ha. Subby's afraid of someone else's sexuality. Pussy... or do you prefer puzzee?


Haha, dumb ass is conflating gender and sexuality.

/don't care what you prefer
//not subby
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2013-07-17 08:31:04 AM  

Aulus: OK, maybe it's because I am hetero and in  my mid-sixties, but were I in such a situation and someone I had never met chose to introduce themself that way, I'd get up and walk out.

Look, I do not care how you conduct yourself gender or sexual wise in private, but do not feel the need to slap me in the face with it when we are not interacting intimately and/or in public and especially if we have never met and are unlikely to in the future.

IOW, STFU and act like an adult.


Well, bye.

A person who constantly feels tired or upset about how others direct speech (let alone the likely not-insignificant volume of attitude or insensitive remarks) at him/her/etc, and so the person cuts to the chase and puts the information out there. If that's enough for you to get up and walk, bye. Saved a whole lot of unpleasantness, so go you. RAHRAHRAH.
 
2013-07-17 08:31:34 AM  

WhyteRaven74: The insistence on the binary nature of gender is actually pretty much a western hang up. Perhaps you should take the drugs?


IsThatYourFinalAnswer: You're confusing "butch" and "fem" as actual core psych identities. Gender identity is binary. It may not match the genitals you are born with, but it's one or the other. It's a very core component of the human mind.


trans fight!
Two men enter, only one leaves. But he leaves as a woman. And in the interim, there may or may not have been some other genders involved. In any event it will be quite a tussle. You see, this is why boxing is best left to gays, they just take out their frustrations and beat people to death.
 
2013-07-17 08:33:07 AM  
Greetings my fellow carbon based life form.

Eh', even that's too much of an assumption.
 
2013-07-17 08:33:54 AM  
I forgot the S!
LGBTQUBFAS


/Can't forget about Smizmars
 
2013-07-17 08:34:36 AM  

jayhawk88: maudibjr: Why does this have to be so confusing.  I'm just going to keep calling everyone dude.

"Bro" also works really well.

[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x243]


"Dude" also works pretty well as a non-gender specific term.

But really, I don't care I'll call you whatever you want.
 
2013-07-17 08:35:15 AM  
gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net

Seriously.  Just tell us whatever the hell you want to be called and move on already.  The only reason this is an issue is because you're MAKING it an issue.  99% of people will politely acquiesce to your wishes out of courtesy if you just ask/correct them politely.

This smacks of AW syndrome.
 
2013-07-17 08:36:06 AM  
The biggest problem with PCness, especially when it comes to cutting-edge PCness like this gender stuff, is that if you get it wrong it's not merely a correction, but a rip-your-face-off crime against Gaia and God (blessed be zer name). You get a new asshole torn because, of COURSE, this stuff is all self-evident and what kind of monster are you for getting it wrong? There are Christian evangelicals who cannot hope to ever reach the sanctimonious and judgmental levels achieved by some in the PC-looney crowd.
 
2013-07-17 08:36:15 AM  

Fromageball: The Muthaship: That reminds me of the lady I went to law school with who dressed her son in girls clothes half the time. She took offense when I told her that was the recipe for making a serial killer.

/he'd be about 23 now
//I hope he started with her

Did the kid want to dress in girl clothes or did the mom just decide to do it?
b/c if the kid wanted it, fine. If the kid didn't want it...wtf?!

Sometimes I feel sorry for men with their restrictive dress choices...especially now in the summer when I can get away with wearing pretty much whatever I want(especially since a lot of workplaces are changing their dress codes...it's like as a woman I can wear whatever the hell I want -within reason) but the men are still stuck in their button-downs and trousers.


We're men. We wrote those policies and we'll damn well deal with it.
 
2013-07-17 08:36:37 AM  
Just call them by their name tag and ask for a new server....  or just keep repeating SYNTAX ERROR SYNTAX ERROR SYNTAX ERROR as you walk out.  You should NEVER feel uncomfortable over a pronoun.
 
2013-07-17 08:37:54 AM  

The Muthaship: here to help: Ha ha. Subby's afraid of someone else's sexuality. Pussy... or do you prefer puzzee?

Haha, dumb ass is conflating gender and sexuality.

/don't care what you prefer
//not subby


Sex = Gender

As in your sex is male.

The term sexuality doesn't always mean f*ck.

Now who's the dumb ass, dumb ass?
 
2013-07-17 08:38:21 AM  
About 10 years ago, we traveled to Arizona because my brother was in a baseball showcase and one of our first nights there we ate at an Olive Garden (I know, I know, let me tell the damn story).  Well our server comes up and asks for our drink order and when they go to get it we all decide we couldn't determine the gender, so we decided we'd check the name on their return and we could base the gender on that.  When they came back with drinks the name tag said "Jaye," not exactly a big help.

You know how we got around this problem?  We just used "Jaye."  Why do you need a pronoun for your server? Just use their name.
 
2013-07-17 08:38:31 AM  

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: IAAl: I am sure that the Fark comments on an article about the gender spectrum is about the last useful place to post this but hey, why not?

Gender is not binary.

Not all people are simply Male or Female.

Regardless of how you define Male or Female, there are people who are both or neither.

If you want to go with the simplistic "is the 23rd set of chromosomes XX or XY?"  You will find that there are people with more than just two, see Aneuploidy.

If you decide to go with sex organs, there are people with both and people with neither.

Needless to say, if you go with characteristics or other physiology you see a wide range of characteristics among people that cross gender norms.

It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation.  Just because you identify strongly with one gender, and perhaps even look the part, does not mean that everyone does or that everyone identifies with either gender.

You're confusing "butch" and "fem" as actual core psych identities.  Gender identity is binary.  It may not match the genitals you are born with, but it's one or the other.  It's a very core component of the human mind.

Yes, you can be a femmy male. (hi Ghastly!)  You can be a butch female.  You can be a male who enjoys stereotypical female activities and norms, and vice versa.  None of this has any bearing on your core gender identity.

I hear it all the time, "Well, I'm male BUT (insert cross-gender activities)".

Trust me, if you IDed as male this week, female next, 70%/30% for two weeks, totally asexual after that....you would be mentally screwed up.  Hell, look at the mental/emotional disorders "simple" transgender people come with!


Kinda seems like you're forcing people into binary gender categories, rather than them adhering to one or the other within certain contexts.  The whole point is that the binary categorization is a poor way of describing the complexity of the human experience, i.e. "I'm a man but I like interior design" is cop-out.

Don't worry, though.  Pretty soon you and others like you will die and the world will continue to move on without you, very likely further and further towards the eradication of the dichotomous gender system.
 
2013-07-17 08:38:52 AM  

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: I always figured trans would be the next "in" thing, but we shot WAY past transgender into this weird world of amorphous constantly shifting nontraditional binary gender declarations.

I guess I'm a closed minded tranny...deep down, you're either male, or female.  may not match with your body, but your core identity is one or the other.

The sad thing, I actually see all this BS reverting trans rights.  We're just barely getting to the point where governments don't require surgery to validate gender.  I see that going down the drain when some of these whackadoos demand recognition of their asexual third-gender spiritual designation on ID.


I agree.  This is going to hurt TG.

I get TG.  Ok I don't "get it" but I understand peopel feel their body is wrong.  They feel their biology puts them in the wrong group.

But this I am special I need a new made up group?  It is farking BS.  Now I can't get that worked up over peopel who want a special BS lable, but I can certainlylaugh my ass off at them.
 
2013-07-17 08:39:28 AM  

here to help: Now who's the dumb ass, dumb ass?


You said sexuality, not sex, so I'm afraid it's still you.
 
2013-07-17 08:39:38 AM  

AngryDragon: Seriously.  Just tell us whatever the hell you want to be called and move on already.  The only reason this is an issue is because you're MAKING it an issue.  99% of people will politely acquiesce to your wishes out of courtesy if you just ask/correct them politely.

This smacks of AW syndrome.


It smacks of AW syndrome that a group of college kids agreed to start doing this during their local interfaith council meetings and NPR ran like a five minute story about "these crazy kids are pushing the social envelope?"
 
2013-07-17 08:39:41 AM  

proteus_b: WhyteRaven74: The insistence on the binary nature of gender is actually pretty much a western hang up. Perhaps you should take the drugs?

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: You're confusing "butch" and "fem" as actual core psych identities. Gender identity is binary. It may not match the genitals you are born with, but it's one or the other. It's a very core component of the human mind.

trans fight!
Two men enter, only one leaves. But he leaves as a woman. And in the interim, there may or may not have been some other genders involved. In any event it will be quite a tussle. You see, this is why boxing is best left to gays, they just take out their frustrations and beat people to death.


Hah, I doubt it. I've enjoyed the few chats me and Whyte have had.  More an "agree to disagree" thing if any.

Now, if you wanna see two trans people fight, ask for the preferred method of "tucking".  THAT triggers trans flamewars.


/Duct Tape or nothing
//Anything else leaves bulges
///Trannies love dem slashies
 
2013-07-17 08:39:54 AM  

DrPainMD: FTA: "...a new generation of young people is..."

And people still insist that "Idiocracy" wasn't a documentary.


I don't see the error.  If you implying it should be "...a new generation of young people are...", that would be grammatically incorrect.  You can check by removing the prepositional phrase:  "a new generation is" versus "a new generation are."  The verb is associated with a singular generation.
 
2013-07-17 08:40:13 AM  

AngryDragon: [gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net image 400x300]

Seriously.  Just tell us whatever the hell you want to be called and move on already.  The only reason this is an issue is because you're MAKING it an issue.  99% of people will politely acquiesce to your wishes out of courtesy if you just ask/correct them politely.

This smacks of AW syndrome.


Yeah, when someone addresses you with a smug tone of challenge, they're actually LESS likely to get cooperation. It's like they WANT the confrontation because they can afford it and are willing to buy the cool story how the guy they met, who they just KNEW was a total bigot, had a negative reaction to their aggressiveness. It's a complete obliviousness to their own reality.
 
2013-07-17 08:40:19 AM  
The point I'm attempting to make is I think we need to stop cutting ourselves into smaller and smaller categories.
Why can't we just be people?

Somewhat relevant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZkl1QpkJ00">http://www.youtube.com/w atch?v=JZkl1QpkJ00

/Flame on
 
2013-07-17 08:40:23 AM  
The article reminded me about the discussion between sex-positive and sex-negative. Getting rid of gender markers entirely would be a step toward the potential of actual consent. I'm defining sex-positive as recognizing that consent can take place between differing individuals of differing power.
 
2013-07-17 08:40:25 AM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: There are a lot of guys in this thread with a lot of latent anger towards themselves and society


Sure; everyone with a different opinion to you hates themselves and society. That's a healthy open-minded attitude you have there.

/Again: perfectly fine with using whatever people'spreferred pronouns are. If you make up awkward -sounding ones  and expect me to remember and use them OTOH, I will quietly hate you for making my life more difficult for no reason.
 
2013-07-17 08:40:29 AM  

BowtoMogul: Questioning, Uninterested, Biased and Furry


This isn't a response to you but its as good a jumping off place as any. Settle down, children, it's cool story bro time. Are you settled? Good, then let's begin.

At one time I attended a Unitarian Church and the meetings of its Social Justice Committee because I was interested in things like food kitchens, services for local poor, etc. What I discovered was that the Social Justice Committee was almost entirely focused on issues of LGBT acceptance. Various events were discussed intended to raise awareness and promote acceptance of people of alternative lifestyle choices. The problem was that in order to ensure that nobody was silenced and everyone had their say, discussion went on week after week of the minutiae of how to raise awareness without causing offense to some faction within the "alphabet soup" community. After a year of meetings, no event had been organized, no food dispensed, no shelter provided. Just endless talk of valid alternative lifestyles and triggers.

This is now my perception when anyone mentions raising awareness or the LGBT community: endless talk and narcissism while actual human misery is ignored.
 
2013-07-17 08:40:34 AM  

Lor M. Ipsum: If you implying


*facepalm*
 
2013-07-17 08:41:31 AM  
25.media.tumblr.com

"Garcon means boy"
 
2013-07-17 08:42:23 AM  
Ketzel Feasley? That's a made up name, right?
 
2013-07-17 08:42:38 AM  

FatPrincess: The article reminded me about the discussion between sex-positive and sex-negative. Getting rid of gender markers entirely would be a step toward the potential of actual consent. I'm defining sex-positive as recognizing that consent can take place between differing individuals of differing power.


A secretary simply cannot have a consensual relationship with a corporate CEO. I've been told that many times by the PC-looney crowd.

For some reason, since 1996, I don't hear it as often.
 
2013-07-17 08:43:13 AM  

PanicMan: "Dude" also works pretty well as a non-gender specific term.

But really, I don't care I'll call you whatever you want.


Not for someone being a gender-free language nazi.

That's ok, "y'all" and "hey, you" work for everybody.
 
2013-07-17 08:43:23 AM  

IAAl: I am sure that the Fark comments on an article about the gender spectrum is about the last useful place to post this but hey, why not?

Gender is not binary.

Not all people are simply Male or Female.

Regardless of how you define Male or Female, there are people who are both or neither.

If you want to go with the simplistic "is the 23rd set of chromosomes XX or XY?"  You will find that there are people with more than just two, see Aneuploidy.

If you decide to go with sex organs, there are people with both and people with neither.

Needless to say, if you go with characteristics or other physiology you see a wide range of characteristics among people that cross gender norms.

It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation.  Just because you identify strongly with one gender, and perhaps even look the part, does not mean that everyone does or that everyone identifies with either gender.



THIS.
 
2013-07-17 08:43:33 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-17 08:43:42 AM  

liam76: But this I am special I need a new made up group? It is farking BS.


I see it the other way. It seems like they're saying they aren't special, and the made up group is essentially a non-identity in terms of gender.
 
2013-07-17 08:44:31 AM  
proteus_b:

trans fight!
Two men enter, only one leaves. But he leaves as a woman. And in the interim, there may or may not have been some other genders involved. In any event it will be quite a tussle. You see, this is why boxing is best left to gays, they just take out their frustrations and beat people to death.


image.spreadshirt.com
 
2013-07-17 08:44:42 AM  

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Since I mentioned questions, here's the answers to the most common questions:

Since I was little.
The bathroom my "brain" gender identifies with.
It stops working reliably on hormones.
Very expensive, and most insurance doesn't cover it.
It's not contagious.
No I can't have kids.

And, the biggest question of all....

Do you normally ask people about their genitals, and major surgeries they may have had?


Genitals and medical history are important if I'm trying to figure out whether or not to attemp initiating courtship rituals. *wink*

(You have genitals, and you're not a walking bag of CancerAIDS.)
 
2013-07-17 08:44:49 AM  

Fromageball: Sometimes I feel sorry for men with their restrictive dress choices...especially now in the summer when I can get away with wearing pretty much whatever I want(especially since a lot of workplaces are changing their dress codes...it's like as a woman I can wear whatever the hell I want -within reason) but the men are still stuck in their button-downs and trousers.


You say that like there's something wrong with it.
 
2013-07-17 08:46:28 AM  

Gunther: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: There are a lot of guys in this thread with a lot of latent anger towards themselves and society

Sure; everyone with a different opinion to you hates themselves and society. That's a healthy open-minded attitude you have there.

/Again: perfectly fine with using whatever people'spreferred pronouns are. If you make up awkward -sounding ones  and expect me to remember and use them OTOH, I will quietly hate you for making my life more difficult for no reason.


Well hating that someone wants to be called something different and passive aggressively agreeing to their face completely proves that you have no latent issues regarding it and yourself. Thanks for proving me wrong.
 
2013-07-17 08:47:13 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: BowtoMogul: Questioning, Uninterested, Biased and Furry

This isn't a response to you but its as good a jumping off place as any. Settle down, children, it's cool story bro time. Are you settled? Good, then let's begin.

At one time I attended a Unitarian Church and the meetings of its Social Justice Committee because I was interested in things like food kitchens, services for local poor, etc. What I discovered was that the Social Justice Committee was almost entirely focused on issues of LGBT acceptance. Various events were discussed intended to raise awareness and promote acceptance of people of alternative lifestyle choices. The problem was that in order to ensure that nobody was silenced and everyone had their say, discussion went on week after week of the minutiae of how to raise awareness without causing offense to some faction within the "alphabet soup" community. After a year of meetings, no event had been organized, no food dispensed, no shelter provided. Just endless talk of valid alternative lifestyles and triggers.

This is now my perception when anyone mentions raising awareness or the LGBT community: endless talk and narcissism while actual human misery is ignored.


That's not a problem unique to the LGBT community. It's a problem of a flat organizational ethos. The touchy-feely crowd wants to be inclusive, even when their organization has leadership positions. You don't want to be a dictator, but you want to come up with the ideas and present options to the group. If they reject all of them, you may have a problem. But trying to get 20 people to all submit ideas and then come to a consensus on one will rarely overcome inertia. Between that and over-ambitious near-term goals, that's how philanthropic organizations die.
 
2013-07-17 08:48:07 AM  

IsThatYourFinalAnswer: Now, if you wanna see two trans people fight, ask for the preferred method of "tucking". THAT triggers trans flamewars.


/Duct Tape or nothing


Whaaaaa no

That doesn't pull off of skin easily. You must suffer for your art.
 
2013-07-17 08:48:28 AM  
I have my own, self-invented dialect of the English language complete with alternate verb tenses.
I become offended and extremely angry when people fail to use or understand it. I'm a person, too!
 
2013-07-17 08:49:29 AM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Well hating that someone wants to be called something different and passive aggressively agreeing to their face completely proves that you have no latent issues regarding it and yourself. Thanks for proving me wrong.


As much as I wish things worked this way, telling people to their face that you think they are thinking and behaving stupidly is considered rude rather than helpful - the expected action is to politely treat them seriously and then shake your head about it later.
 
2013-07-17 08:49:33 AM  
And I think people are missing the point. This is more than likely being done to shove the issue to the front of the conversation. A friend of mine has been going through a REAL hard time with this exact scenario. I call her she because that's how I met her. Born a female but very androgynous and before anyone starts saying "lesbo AW! Whargharble!!1" there are severe chemical and physical differences with her. For example she could grow a beard as a teen. Imagine how f*cking terrible and confusing that would have been. She held all that gender crap in and just played the part of girl/tomboy. Dated guys and chicks but mostly just wasn't interested in sex. She hid it from most of her friends even though we are all supposedly open minded and ultra progressive people. Well a few years back she was completely breaking down because of the stress of this and started talking to doctors (who confirmed the physical gender problems) and her friends. Well apparently a lot of people were complete assholes to her about it. It was shocking considering the community. Very pro equal rights across the board but for some reason just the thought of a trans gender made them all wonky. Very disappointing. I guess I am one of the few she's been able to talk to about it and I find that heartbreaking.

So no. It's not easy for these people and this is obviously a way for them let people know who and what they are and make people talk about it instead of just squirming in their seats or waiting until they leave to talk behind their backs.

Put yourselves in their shoes. How would you feel?
 
2013-07-17 08:49:38 AM  
"WE WARNED YOU ABOUT THIS SHIAT!"

-Religion

I will here to fore only respond to "F*cker".
 
2013-07-17 08:49:43 AM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: There are a lot of guys in this thread with a lot of latent anger towards themselves and society because what they assumed were hard rules about gender and sexuality have changed. The rules you adhere to don't give you anything tangible. You aren't a "real man" because you played with trucks and roll your eyes at a rack of pink dress shirts. Following cultural norms is all well and good, until you've become so distant to the reasons and historical context that you're enforcing them - as evidenced in this thread - with such enthusiasm and vitriol - for the sake of just making others feel like outsiders.

Some people are different. Learn to deal with it.


Dear Wile E. Coyote (Super Genius),

You've done a masterful job of reading the minds of all of the posters so far who don't with your point of view. However, what about those of us who just can't be bothered to give a shiat about people who feel the need to flaunt convention because it makes them feel better. I honestly just don't give a shiat enough to change what has worked for the last 2000yrs including the previous span of my lifetime.

So in closing, anyone can feel free to ask to be called what they want, but i'm just not interested enough to comply with that request. If this is upsetting to them or you in any way, please feel free to take it up management.
 
2013-07-17 08:49:44 AM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Well hating that someone wants to be called something different and passive aggressively agreeing to their face completely proves that you have no latent issues regarding it and yourself. Thanks for proving me wrong.


Yes, the only reason to be annoyed by Tumblr Social Justice Warriors is that we are assiduously avoiding recognition of our own LGBTAGSFQWNZ nature.
 
2013-07-17 08:49:45 AM  
".....a new generation of young people ....."

The same kind of "generation of young people" that were raised by  douchebag helicopter parents, most likely.

Of all the politically correct bullsh*t words out there, "waitron" has to be one of the bullshiattiest. It doesn't erase gender identity so much as a person's humanity. Like being a "waitron" means that you're just some sort of serving robot.

us.123rf.com
 
2013-07-17 08:51:41 AM  

The Muthaship: here to help: Now who's the dumb ass, dumb ass?

You said sexuality, not sex, so I'm afraid it's still you.


You really aren't all that good at English are you?
 
2013-07-17 08:51:41 AM  

ox45tallboy: Why don't dudes get a couch?


Because eventually someone will piss / shiat on it.
 
2013-07-17 08:52:18 AM  

ox45tallboy: Can anyone translate these?

[nyulocal.com image 750x350]

I get: Chick, Dude, Larry Craig In A Skirt, Guy With A Boner, Rockette, Disabled Person, and Disabled Person Being Arrested.


That last one stands for Ludacris because he's obviously rolling out.
 
2013-07-17 08:53:34 AM  
encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
Social norms change.  You are powerless to stop it.
 
2013-07-17 08:53:37 AM  
Really? 230+ posts and I'm the weeners?

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-07-17 08:53:48 AM  
Show me your drivers license.
Whatever it says, that I'll call you.

If you cannot convince the DWV, then you cannot convince me.
 
2013-07-17 08:53:56 AM  

dv-ous: Genitals and medical history are important if I'm trying to figure out whether or not to attemp initiating courtship rituals. *wink*

(You have genitals, and you're not a walking bag of CancerAIDS.)


I think I just got complimented somehow.  Fark is straaange.

I save myself the whole courtship thing, I don't have sex. There's very few people out there who can put up with the myriad other issues trans people have.  Add in the "trannychasers", and our dating pool gets mighty shallow.

I'm putting that on my mirror now, though.  "You are not a bag of walking CancerAIDS".  It's motivational.
 
2013-07-17 08:54:04 AM  

bbcard1: I still don't know why "herm" hasn't caught on.


I know 2 guys named Herm.
 
2013-07-17 08:54:05 AM  

IAAl: It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation


No but the language is, and to expect your coworkers, or peopel youhave random encounters with to take the time to learn your recently made up words then apply them to you is dick in the toaster stupid.
 
2013-07-17 08:54:08 AM  
My wife is friends with a woman who's parents named her Gazel.  She gets really upset when people call her Gazelle cause THAT'S AN ANIMAL I AM NOT AN ANIMAL IM A PERSON.  Sorry your parents named you something that looks a hell of a lot like a word for an animal.  Not super applicable but I think its funny.

Anyway, if you look and dress like a dude I'm calling you he, and if you look and dress like a girl I'm calling you she.  Its not my job to keep straight how you THINK about yourself, especially if I have no idea who you are.  If you're a woman who's dressed like a man, cool, I'm happy to take the outward indication that you want to be considered a dude and run with it, bro.  Same thing if you're a guy wearing a dress and makeup.  You wanna go out in drag that's your thing and I'm happy to acknowledge it ma'am.
 
2013-07-17 08:54:13 AM  

OtherLittleGuy: Really? 230+ posts and I'm the weeners?

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 308x320]


Maybe you're just old.
 
2013-07-17 08:54:49 AM  
I just refer to everyone as "consumer." Well, hello consumer, yes, hello consumer. Bop bop bee da bop Bebop Cola, yeah.

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-07-17 08:54:56 AM  

here to help: The Muthaship: here to help: Now who's the dumb ass, dumb ass?

You said sexuality, not sex, so I'm afraid it's still you.

You really aren't all that good at English are you?


Pretty decent, not perfect.

No one asks for your sexuality when what they want to know is your gender.
 
2013-07-17 08:55:12 AM  

Bontesla: Jim_Callahan: While I wasn't raised in a barn, so I can in public basically call anyone whatever they ask to be called by with a straight face, I have to admit that every time someone makes a big deal out of being identified by their obvious biological gender (or getting annoyed when you mess it up, in the case of androgynous people) my actual unspoken reaction is basically "Oh my god who the hell cares".

If shiat like this actually catches on (probably won't) I'll learn it because etiquette is a life skill, but don't expect me to use it outside of formal venues.  PC crap is and always has been an artificial waste of time that conceals an underlying problem instead of or even at the expense of actually fixing it.

You don't care because you don't struggle with it. You take it for granted.

I know of an incredibly brave person who was born a man but just announced their desire to begin the process of gender reassignment. 56 years of being referred to as the wrong gender can wear a person down.

We tend to think of something as less important if it's not something we struggle with.


encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com

No one gives a crap about the things I struggle with or the challenges in my life. And I don't expect them to.
 
2013-07-17 08:55:21 AM  

Ricardo Klement: That's not a problem unique to the LGBT community. It's a problem of a flat organizational ethos. The touchy-feely crowd wants to be inclusive, even when their organization has leadership positions. You don't want to be a dictator, but you want to come up with the ideas and present options to the group. If they reject all of them, you may have a problem. But trying to get 20 people to all submit ideas and then come to a consensus on one will rarely overcome inertia. Between that and over-ambitious near-term goals, that's how philanthropic organizations die.


When I said minutiae, I meant it. I had never seen any committee quibble over trivialities as target date after target date passed. It didn't help that over half of the committee was either some flavor of gay or transgender. It was very obviously all about them. Social justice wasn't about making sure that hungry people got a hot meal, it was about how someone gave them a weird look at the grocery store the previous week.

What we're discussing here is narcissism.
 
2013-07-17 08:55:29 AM  

Public Savant: Show me your drivers license.
Whatever it says, that I'll call you.

If you cannot convince the DWV, then you cannot convince me.


Yes, because the government has an excellent track record with being current on human rights.
 
2013-07-17 08:56:01 AM  

Super_pope: Its not my job to keep straight how you THINK about yourself, especially if I have no idea who you are.


That's kind of the whole point of them telling you.
 
2013-07-17 08:56:26 AM  
Thank goodness George Zimmerman is not amongst this crowd, or we'd not only be arguing if he was white or hispanic, but also if he was a woman/man/whatever. Think of the uproar THAT would cause.

/I'd like to see that thread.
 
2013-07-17 08:57:16 AM  

The Muthaship: No one asks for your sexuality when what they want to know is your gender.


You've got nothing so you are attempting a semantics troll... a poor one at that.
 
2013-07-17 08:57:24 AM  

WhippingBoy: No one gives a crap about the things I struggle with or the challenges in my life. And I don't expect them to.


Those who have easier struggles should recognize it, though.


as in: I ain't got nothing but first world problems
 
2013-07-17 08:57:26 AM  

OtherLittleGuy: Really? 230+ posts and I'm the weeners?


2.bp.blogspot.com
I could have sworn you were the boobies.
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2013-07-17 08:57:30 AM  

here to help: And I think people are missing the point. This is more than likely being done to shove the issue to the front of the conversation. A friend of mine has been going through a REAL hard time with this exact scenario. I call her she because that's how I met her. Born a female but very androgynous and before anyone starts saying "lesbo AW! Whargharble!!1" there are severe chemical and physical differences with her. For example she could grow a beard as a teen. Imagine how f*cking terrible and confusing that would have been. She held all that gender crap in and just played the part of girl/tomboy. Dated guys and chicks but mostly just wasn't interested in sex. She hid it from most of her friends even though we are all supposedly open minded and ultra progressive people. Well a few years back she was completely breaking down because of the stress of this and started talking to doctors (who confirmed the physical gender problems) and her friends. Well apparently a lot of people were complete assholes to her about it. It was shocking considering the community. Very pro equal rights across the board but for some reason just the thought of a trans gender made them all wonky. Very disappointing. I guess I am one of the few she's been able to talk to about it and I find that heartbreaking.

So no. It's not easy for these people and this is obviously a way for them let people know who and what they are and make people talk about it instead of just squirming in their seats or waiting until they leave to talk behind their backs.

Put yourselves in their shoes. How would you feel?


This. A few times over, this.
 
2013-07-17 08:58:19 AM  

WhyteRaven74: Jon iz teh kewl: why don't they ahve DRUGS to treat this condition? like WELLBUTRIN or ZOLOFT

The insistence on the binary nature of gender is actually pretty much a western hang up. Perhaps you should take the drugs?


male/female/space mutant?
 
2013-07-17 08:58:30 AM  

TuteTibiImperes: Didn't we have this thread last week?  If you're gender confused pick the masculine or feminine, whichever you prefer, and try to stick with it. The overwhelming majority of people aren't going to be willing to learn new gender-neutral pronouns, so unless you fancy being called an 'it' just figure out which one you're closest to and run with that.


English already has a gender-neutral pronoun; "their/they". It's primarily used as a plural these days, but for most of English history it was a singular as well. Might seem confusing to have a noun-form that can be both plural and singular, specific and general, but when you find yourself thinking that just remember every romance language in existence does the same thing with nearly every noun they have, and some verb-forms too. English speakers get off pretty easy.
 
2013-07-17 08:58:54 AM  
undiscoveredcountryproject.com

THERE ARE 2 GENDERS!!!
 
2013-07-17 08:59:03 AM  

jaybeezey: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: There are a lot of guys in this thread with a lot of latent anger towards themselves and society because what they assumed were hard rules about gender and sexuality have changed. The rules you adhere to don't give you anything tangible. You aren't a "real man" because you played with trucks and roll your eyes at a rack of pink dress shirts. Following cultural norms is all well and good, until you've become so distant to the reasons and historical context that you're enforcing them - as evidenced in this thread - with such enthusiasm and vitriol - for the sake of just making others feel like outsiders.

Some people are different. Learn to deal with it.

Dear Wile E. Coyote (Super Genius),

You've done a masterful job of reading the minds of all of the posters so far who don't with your point of view. However, what about those of us who just can't be bothered to give a shiat about people who feel the need to flaunt convention because it makes them feel better. I honestly just don't give a shiat enough to change what has worked for the last 2000yrs including the previous span of my lifetime.

So in closing, anyone can feel free to ask to be called what they want, but i'm just not interested enough to comply with that request. If this is upsetting to them or you in any way, please feel free to take it up management.


Would you like to write any further persuasive, emotional essays to prove to me, the world, and yourself about just how little you care about the issue? I'm not sure it was clear, since it appears you care very deeply about how other people behave.
 
2013-07-17 09:00:08 AM  
staplermofo: "Ungendered pronouns would be great."

Like they/them/theirs ?
Or do we need new ones?

I generally go out of my way to not be a dick, and to accommodate other people.  But there is a line at which, no, I am not willing to re-wire myself to use newly-invented words to help people who are different feel not-different.  Particularly not to the point that the repetition of the preferences of the majority will come across like mocking.

I mean, do we invent a word for "not-disabled", that the bulk of us can use to describe ourselves as such, so that disabled people don't feel categorized by having to specify possible additional preferences/needs?  "Hi, I'm Bob and I'm cis-abled; I don't need a ramp or handicapped stall or items to be placed at wheelchair-accessible heights."

To me, the "cis-gender" "here's my pronouns preference" shiat sounds just as incredibly cruel.
 
2013-07-17 09:00:24 AM  

TV's Vinnie: Of all the politically correct bullsh*t words out there, "waitron" has to be one of the bullshiattiest.


Chill, I think subby made up waitron, in jest of the article...
 
2013-07-17 09:01:35 AM  

here to help: The Muthaship: No one asks for your sexuality when what they want to know is your gender.

You've got nothing so you are attempting a semantics troll... a poor one at that.


It's okay to admit you screwed up.  It might even feel good.
 
2013-07-17 09:02:03 AM  

Heron: TuteTibiImperes: Didn't we have this thread last week?  If you're gender confused pick the masculine or feminine, whichever you prefer, and try to stick with it. The overwhelming majority of people aren't going to be willing to learn new gender-neutral pronouns, so unless you fancy being called an 'it' just figure out which one you're closest to and run with that.

English already has a gender-neutral pronoun; "their/they". It's primarily used as a plural these days, but for most of English history it was a singular as well. Might seem confusing to have a noun-form that can be both plural and singular, specific and general, but when you find yourself thinking that just remember every romance language in existence does the same thing with nearly every noun they have, and some verb-forms too. English speakers get off pretty easy.


I've been using they/their as singular for years. Rarely do people call me on it, and usually they are much older traditionalist types. I originally started to strip out him/her he/she in my writing, because alternating genders by paragraph got annoying. The fact it fits transgender folks was just a happy coincidence.

I wish English had more gender neutral language, I would use it all the time.
 
2013-07-17 09:03:18 AM  

Jim_Callahan: While I wasn't raised in a barn, so I can in public basically call anyone whatever they ask to be called by with a straight face, I have to admit that every time someone makes a big deal out of being identified by their obvious biological gender (or getting annoyed when you mess it up, in the case of androgynous people) my actual unspoken reaction is basically "Oh my god who the hell cares".

If shiat like this actually catches on (probably won't) I'll learn it because etiquette is a life skill, but don't expect me to use it outside of formal venues.  PC crap is and always has been an artificial waste of time that conceals an underlying problem instead of or even at the expense of actually fixing it.


I worked at a restaurant with a "person" for a very brief time...

(Names changed)

Given Name at time of birth by his partents: Steve
Born with Male Parts

Felt he was trans, decided to go by "Jennifer"

Some days this person was "Steve," others "Jennifer," and others, some other state of being with a gender neutral name like "Pat" or "Nicky."

So Tuesday we would work with Steve, and Thursday we would work with Jennifer.  These identities had totally different attitudes, personalities, food preferences, body language and posture, vocal pitch was different...

He made things unnecessarily difficult very quickly, and drama that never existed in the restaurant was suddenly there.  He requested to have the name on the computer changed whenever he was either "Pat/Nicky" or "Jennifer"...he would get VERY upset when he was "Jennifer" and it was paycheck day and the paycheck was written out to "Steve."

This person was not sexually confused, going through a transition or any other issue...unquestionably homey was mentally ill.

He lasted about 3 months.  A semi-regular came in and said hello to "Steve" and "Jennifer" freaked the fark out on him.  He was fired on the spot.
 
2013-07-17 09:03:23 AM  
I haven't seen a post yet bring up the obvious.
When you're speaking to a person or around a person about them, you are very rarely using she/he/her/him/hers/his, you use, you or their name. So all this panty twisting about ze zim zer... it most likely a moot point.
 
2013-07-17 09:04:21 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Ricardo Klement: That's not a problem unique to the LGBT community. It's a problem of a flat organizational ethos. The touchy-feely crowd wants to be inclusive, even when their organization has leadership positions. You don't want to be a dictator, but you want to come up with the ideas and present options to the group. If they reject all of them, you may have a problem. But trying to get 20 people to all submit ideas and then come to a consensus on one will rarely overcome inertia. Between that and over-ambitious near-term goals, that's how philanthropic organizations die.

When I said minutiae, I meant it. I had never seen any committee quibble over trivialities as target date after target date passed. It didn't help that over half of the committee was either some flavor of gay or transgender. It was very obviously all about them. Social justice wasn't about making sure that hungry people got a hot meal, it was about how someone gave them a weird look at the grocery store the previous week.

What we're discussing here is narcissism.


I follow you.

I was briefly in an organization that had a great idea. It was expensive, but it was a good idea. They spent the time arguing over minutia while I, in my divine innocence, would point out they literally had no money, and that maybe they should start with fund-raisers rather than trying to pull off an idea that would cost four-figures to implement.

Two years later, they still hadn't done it, and I don't know if they even exist anymore.

But narcissism is also an unsolvable problem.
 
2013-07-17 09:05:00 AM  
Obviously seriously confused people, i feel sorry for them. Makes you wonder WTF happened during their prenatal development that caused this affliction. Like Autism, we may never know.
 
xcv
2013-07-17 09:06:44 AM  
media.tumblr.com
 
2013-07-17 09:08:53 AM  

ringersol: staplermofo: "Ungendered pronouns would be great."

Like they/them/theirs ?
Or do we need new ones?

I generally go out of my way to not be a dick, and to accommodate other people.  But there is a line at which, no, I am not willing to re-wire myself to use newly-invented words to help people who are different feel not-different.  Particularly not to the point that the repetition of the preferences of the majority will come across like mocking.

I mean, do we invent a word for "not-disabled", that the bulk of us can use to describe ourselves as such, so that disabled people don't feel categorized by having to specify possible additional preferences/needs?  "Hi, I'm Bob and I'm cis-abled; I don't need a ramp or handicapped stall or items to be placed at wheelchair-accessible heights."

To me, the "cis-gender" "here's my pronouns preference" shiat sounds just as incredibly cruel.


I think it's interesting how we have gendered terms for some things and not others.  There are still waiters and waitresses, but aviator and aviatrix have been replaced by pilot.  People do use the term server, but not at the rate they use pilot.  Same with barman and barmaid becoming the unified bartender.

I hesitate to say that steward and stewardess becoming flight attendant is a gender neutralization.  It could also just be title inflation.
 
2013-07-17 09:09:12 AM  
I basically live and work in one of the more liberal parts of Massachusetts so yeah, pretty progressive relative to the country and I have never heard anyone talk like that. It must be mostly relegated to campuses and in activist groups that are formed to further these issues, nttiawwt. But I  think NPR is making more out of it than it is.
 
2013-07-17 09:09:17 AM  

RobSeace: We encountered high school students who said, I want you to call me Tractor and use pronouns like zee, zim and zer.

No... If you're not down with he/him/his or she/her/hers, you're getting singular they/them/theirs... You don't get to invent new words and unilaterally add them to the language and force everyone else to use them...


I'm glad someone said this. I like to think of myself as progressive, and I support the LGBT community in their quest for equal rights. I also understand that the way our world has operated there needs to be changes to the way we do certain things.

That being said, as you've already pointed out, our language already has Gender Neutral Pronouns. They/Them/Theirs are used for both plural (including mixed gender) and when Gender is unknown. This is one area that changes don't need to be made to the language.

From time to time the mold simply won't fit, and it needs to be broken and recreated. I get that and I endorse that, but I do not support breaking the mold simply for the sake of breaking it. Work within the system when it applies, go outside when you must. No only it is easier on you, but it's easier to get less supportive people to accept as well. After all the goal is acceptance, not special privileges.
 
2013-07-17 09:10:02 AM  
And to all those who are saying "I don't care so don't bother me with this." that is what is so frustrating for these people. It is a complex issue and otherwise well meaning people refuse to even think about it. These folks are isolated and marginalized. These kids are trying to carve out their spot in society and are sick of being swept aside. Race relations didn't get better until people started talking about the issues and what it was like to be a minority. To truly be able to accept someone as they are there has to be a certain level of understanding and empathy. We all know what the average middle class straight white dude is thinking or feeling because we get beat over the head with it day in and day out. Take a few minutes to think about what these people are going through and what it must be like to constantly be shrugged of as a weirdo or AW.

Don't be so selfish.
 
2013-07-17 09:10:17 AM  

xcv: [media.tumblr.com image 467x644]


Eventually, we'll just list everyone.
 
2013-07-17 09:10:56 AM  

Bontesla: The goal isn't to create a new identity but to raise awareness.


Trust me, we're aware.
 
2013-07-17 09:11:25 AM  

Wolf892: I just figured out what to call these people.

He/him = penis
She/her = vagina

But everyone has titties, so that's what we call them

"Excuse me, titty told me that the bill was going to be under fifty bucks, but when titty brought me the bill it was nearly one hundred. I want you to discount the three lobsters because titty told me that they were half price and now you're charging me full price for them.

See? Titty, it just works.


Sure, just insult the women who have had double mastectomies. You heartless bastard.
 
2013-07-17 09:11:44 AM  

The Muthaship: It's okay to admit you screwed up. It might even feel good.


I did not and I will not.

*FART*

Now THAT felt good.

*fartfartfart*
 
2013-07-17 09:11:50 AM  

here to help: on't be so selfish.


i116.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-17 09:13:11 AM  

here to help: And to all those who are saying "I don't care so don't bother me with this." that is what is so frustrating for these people. It is a complex issue and otherwise well meaning people refuse to even think about it. These folks are isolated and marginalized. These kids are trying to carve out their spot in society and are sick of being swept aside. Race relations didn't get better until people started talking about the issues and what it was like to be a minority. To truly be able to accept someone as they are there has to be a certain level of understanding and empathy. We all know what the average middle class straight white dude is thinking or feeling because we get beat over the head with it day in and day out. Take a few minutes to think about what these people are going through and what it must be like to constantly be shrugged of as a weirdo or AW.

Don't be so selfish.


BUT I DON'T CARE!  I care so little that I will write 30 posts in this thread detailing how much I don't care.  I care so little that I will respond to anyone criticizing my position of not caring!!  That's indicative of how little I care about this!!
 
2013-07-17 09:13:15 AM  
FTFA - We encountered high school students who said, I want you to call me Tractor and use pronouns like zee, zim and zer. And, in fact, I reject the gender binary as an oppressive move by the dominant culture.

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-07-17 09:13:27 AM  

ph0rk: here to help: on't be so selfish.

[i116.photobucket.com image 112x150]


Damn I'm sexy.
 
2013-07-17 09:13:55 AM  
I felt the urge to punch each person who contributed to this article.

Is that wrong of me...or a perfectly rational response to complete farking bullshiat?
 
2013-07-17 09:14:08 AM  
this reminds of a thread i was reading on total fark yesterday where this parent was gushing how he and his wife were such progressive parents because their snowflakes had a black friend and a chinese friend. And that his kids were outspoken on the topic of gay marriage. at agges 7 and 12. at 7 and 12 kids should be playing games, walking in the park, and not having parents forcing adult themes on to theme. these kids are being raised into the same type of aws in the story.

i do not go around saying "hi i am theflatline, i am a heterosexual male, and i was born this way."

tell me your name and i will call you that.
 
2013-07-17 09:14:25 AM  

DrPainMD: ox45tallboy: They're calling for more fluid categories beyond just male and female, as NPR's Margot Adler explains.

I'm totally fine with people who were born with a different sexual identity than what matches their naughty bits. It happens sometimes, and these days, there is no reason not to live a happy and fulfilled life wearing the gender in which you feel comfortable, and having sexual relations with whichever consenting adults wish to do so. Having said that, if your gender identity is changing,on a regular basis, perhaps you need to seek professional help. This is not normal or healthy, and other people catering to this whim is not helpful to your mental health.

I couldn't agree more, but, since the internet never forgets and I see the direction the forces of political correctness are going, I'm going to have to say, "Stop being such a close-minded, intolerant bigot."

There. Now, in twenty years, I will be hailed as a progressive thinker who was ahead of his time, and you will be lumped in with Limbaugh, Beck, Gingrich and Stalin. Won't that be fun?


Fine, I'll just say it myself:

This is stupid. Stop being a bunch of AWs.
 
2013-07-17 09:16:12 AM  
These people are farked when it comes to romance languages - every word is masculine or feminine.

ringersol: staplermofo: "Ungendered pronouns would be great."

Like they/them/theirs ?
Or do we need new ones?

I generally go out of my way to not be a dick, and to accommodate other people.  But there is a line at which, no, I am not willing to re-wire myself to use newly-invented words to help people who are different feel not-different.  Particularly not to the point that the repetition of the preferences of the majority will come across like mocking.

I mean, do we invent a word for "not-disabled", that the bulk of us can use to describe ourselves as such, so that disabled people don't feel categorized by having to specify possible additional preferences/needs?  "Hi, I'm Bob and I'm cis-abled; I don't need a ramp or handicapped stall or items to be placed at wheelchair-accessible heights."

To me, the "cis-gender" "here's my pronouns preference" shiat sounds just as incredibly cruel.


Your position basically equates people who don't fall into the gender binary as having a disability.  I think that may be one of the fundamental points of argument.  Having come to terms with their different-ness, they want to change the English language & social customs to normalize their condition in the eyes of the general public, or at least create the perception that gender is fluid & not binary.

I pity them for this, since has a snowball's chance in hell of happening.
 
2013-07-17 09:17:08 AM  

Headso: I basically live and work in one of the more liberal parts of Massachusetts so yeah, pretty progressive relative to the country and I have never heard anyone talk like that. It must be mostly relegated to campuses and in activist groups that are formed to further these issues, nttiawwt. But I  think NPR is making more out of it than it is.


I think you're right about that, and pretty obviously so. I know a lot of young people and college students, and it's really a bit of a stretch at this point to be heralding some new revolution in thought among the "young generation".

In other words, this article is about 85% bullsh*t.
 
2013-07-17 09:17:47 AM  

Rapmaster2000: BUT I DON'T CARE! I care so little that I will write 30 posts in this thread detailing how much I don't care. I care so little that I will respond to anyone criticizing my position of not caring!! That's indicative of how little I care about this!!


Zactly. In the time it took for them to do all that not caring they could have taking the time to let the ideas bounce around their little noodles for a while. They don't WANT to care. They don't want to explore the issue because it obviously scares them or they do indeed have negative attitudes but don't want to be labeled bigots so they act aloof.

Sad really.
 
2013-07-17 09:18:01 AM  

FraggleStickCar: Don't worry, though. Pretty soon you and others like you will die and the world will continue to move on without you, very likely further and further towards the eradication of the dichotomous gender system


That would be great.  Just not for the reasons you think.

If the world has enough time for what are now issues for entitled, spolied, self centered, whiny coonts who think their time is more valuable than those around them, then hopefully we will have fixed real problems.
 
2013-07-17 09:18:30 AM  

ox45tallboy: staplermofo: Ungendered pronouns would be great.  Un-gendering bathrooms would be nice too.  If women peep on men or men hog the couch, it's a small price to pay.  I would hog the shiat out of that couch.

Why don't dudes get a couch? What the hell are women doing in the can that necessitates a couch? I want a couch to chill on in the can. I would totally call the restaurant's number on my cell and ask for my waiter and then tell him bring me another beer to the couch in the men's room. Bonus points if it's a waitress. More bonus points if she does it. Negative points if she changes gender first.


It's for breastfeeding and also because ladies room lines are longer
 
2013-07-17 09:19:05 AM  

ox45tallboy: [24.media.tumblr.com image 500x592]


I'm going with Cheese.
 
2013-07-17 09:19:37 AM  

IAAl: It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation. Just because you identify strongly with one gender, and perhaps even look the part, does not mean that everyone does or that everyone identifies with either gender.


And if we're intimate enough that I know about your gender identity issues, then I will try to accommodate them to the best of my ability. If I've just met you though, you're lucky if I remember your name. I'm unlikely to remember a different set of pronouns for you... and especially when this seems to be a "I'll choose my own set of pronouns!" type of thing so that I'll need to remember a separate set of pronouns for each and every person. Come up with some standard and it may get adopted as time goes on, but until then, expecting people to remember the new words you've decided to try and force on everyone is simply narcissistic. All you'll do is convince people to stick the the 3rd person they/their/theirs instead of having to wade through that mine field.
 
2013-07-17 09:21:24 AM  

Lexx: These people are farked when it comes to romance languages - every word is masculine or feminine.


I'm guessing you've never taken a stab at THE romance language...
 
2013-07-17 09:21:30 AM  

Prevailing Wind: I felt the urge to punch each person who contributed to this article.

Is that wrong of me...or a perfectly rational response to complete farking bullshiat?


Feeling anger or fear is normal. Actually giving other people a hard time and punishing them when they don't play to your bias is problematic.
 
2013-07-17 09:22:31 AM  
"Hi. My name is Ricardo and my preferred pronouns are he/her/its."
 
2013-07-17 09:23:32 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: liam76: But this I am special I need a new made up group? It is farking BS.

I see it the other way. It seems like they're saying they aren't special, and the made up group is essentially a non-identity in terms of gender.


If they aren't special why do they need a made up group?


here to help: These folks are isolated and marginalized.


By their own imagination.

By pretend walls they have created.

these folks are inventing opression.  fark them
 
2013-07-17 09:23:54 AM  

ph0rk: Heron: TuteTibiImperes: Didn't we have this thread last week?  If you're gender confused pick the masculine or feminine, whichever you prefer, and try to stick with it. The overwhelming majority of people aren't going to be willing to learn new gender-neutral pronouns, so unless you fancy being called an 'it' just figure out which one you're closest to and run with that.

English already has a gender-neutral pronoun; "their/they". It's primarily used as a plural these days, but for most of English history it was a singular as well. Might seem confusing to have a noun-form that can be both plural and singular, specific and general, but when you find yourself thinking that just remember every romance language in existence does the same thing with nearly every noun they have, and some verb-forms too. English speakers get off pretty easy.

I've been using they/their as singular for years. Rarely do people call me on it, and usually they are much older traditionalist types. I originally started to strip out him/her he/she in my writing, because alternating genders by paragraph got annoying. The fact it fits transgender folks was just a happy coincidence.

I wish English had more gender neutral language, I would use it all the time.


That's actually how I picked up the usage, too; it was just far simpler and lazier to use "they/their" in my academic writing than to constantly be switching between him/her when writing about theoretical people :p Finding out later that my natural instinct in this regard was backed up by historically correct English grammar was a nice bonus :)
 
2013-07-17 09:24:46 AM  
I'm a 38-year old programmer/analyst, but I identify as a 22-year old college athlete. Please respect my choices by having choice-appropriate college girls sent to my room.
 
2013-07-17 09:25:23 AM  

xcv: [media.tumblr.com image 467x644]


I lost it at "birl."
 
2013-07-17 09:25:38 AM  

liam76: here to help: These folks are isolated and marginalized.

By their own imagination.

By pretend walls they have created.

these folks are inventing opression. fark them


Right. And we all know how tolerant and totally not bigoted you are.
 
2013-07-17 09:25:49 AM  

miscreant: IAAl: It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation. Just because you identify strongly with one gender, and perhaps even look the part, does not mean that everyone does or that everyone identifies with either gender.

And if we're intimate enough that I know about your gender identity issues, then I will try to accommodate them to the best of my ability. If I've just met you though, you're lucky if I remember your name. I'm unlikely to remember a different set of pronouns for you... and especially when this seems to be a "I'll choose my own set of pronouns!" type of thing so that I'll need to remember a separate set of pronouns for each and every person. Come up with some standard and it may get adopted as time goes on, but until then, expecting people to remember the new words you've decided to try and force on everyone is simply narcissistic. All you'll do is convince people to stick the the 3rd person they/their/theirs instead of having to wade through that mine field.


Good point.  If I can barely be bothered to remember someone's name, like HELL I'm remembering some social language construct they're trying to get me to adopt.

We desperately need a grammatically correct gender-neutral set of pronouns.  At the very least, having them would remove gender issues from the conversation.
 
2013-07-17 09:26:48 AM  

liam76: here to help: These folks are isolated and marginalized.

By their own imagination.

By pretend walls they have created.

these folks are inventing opression.  fark them


The opposite yet equally out of touch view as the article...
 
2013-07-17 09:26:59 AM  

Lexx: Your position basically equates people who don't fall into the gender binary as having a disability.  I think that may be one of the fundamental points of argument.  Having come to terms with their different-ness, they want to change the English language & social customs to normalize their condition in the eyes of the general public, or at least create the perception that gender is fluid & not binary.

I pity them for this, since has a snowball's chance in hell of happening.


That is the usual argument, and I agree - the main problem is just numbers. There are (and will in all likelihood) continue to be more 'cisgender' folks than queer/whatever folks. It is terribly hard to get nine tenths of the population to refer to themselves as a specific category when they think of themselves as just being.

I vaguely recall seeing references to the "fully-abled" but I assume most are in jest.


Heron: That's actually how I picked up the usage, too; it was just far simpler and lazier to use "they/their" in my academic writing than to constantly be switching between him/her when writing about theoretical people :p Finding out later that my natural instinct in this regard was backed up by historically correct English grammar was a nice bonus :)


Do you happen to have a cite handy? I hadn't heard about the older singular usage before.
 
2013-07-17 09:27:06 AM  

treesloth: I'm a 38-year old programmer/analyst, but I identify as a 22-year old college athlete. Please respect my choices by having choice-appropriate college girls sent to my room.


We must be twins!
 
2013-07-17 09:28:53 AM  
I think that as long as you are being addressed in a polite and respectful manner, STFU about your damn pronouns.

I am androgynous. I get called sir as often as ma'am and I don't care. I'm just happy to be addressed politely. My views on my gender aren't anyone's business unless they ask me.

/need more coffee
 
2013-07-17 09:29:17 AM  
It puts the lotion on it's skin.

/Even though it identifies as agender, practicing proper skincare should be part of any gender presentation.
 
2013-07-17 09:29:25 AM  

DrPainMD: FTA: "...a new generation of young people is..."

And people still insist that "Idiocracy" wasn't a documentary.


Okay, I'll bite. What about that quote has anything to do with Idiocracy?
 
2013-07-17 09:29:44 AM  

proteus_b: TV's Vinnie: Of all the politically correct bullsh*t words out there, "waitron" has to be one of the bullshiattiest.

Chill, I think subby made up waitron, in jest of the article...


Sadly, no. "Waitron" really is a word that the PC puckerbutts have been trying to force down our throats since the 80's.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/waitron
 
2013-07-17 09:31:15 AM  

here to help: And I think people are missing the point. This is more than likely being done to shove the issue to the front of the conversation. A friend of mine has been going through a REAL hard time with this exact scenario. I call her she because that's how I met her. Born a female but very androgynous and before anyone starts saying "lesbo AW! Whargharble!!1" there are severe chemical and physical differences with her. For example she could grow a beard as a teen. Imagine how f*cking terrible and confusing that would have been. She held all that gender crap in and just played the part of girl/tomboy. Dated guys and chicks but mostly just wasn't interested in sex. She hid it from most of her friends even though we are all supposedly open minded and ultra progressive people. Well a few years back she was completely breaking down because of the stress of this and started talking to doctors (who confirmed the physical gender problems) and her friends. Well apparently a lot of people were complete assholes to her about it. It was shocking considering the community. Very pro equal rights across the board but for some reason just the thought of a trans gender made them all wonky. Very disappointing. I guess I am one of the few she's been able to talk to about it and I find that heartbreaking.

So no. It's not easy for these people and this is obviously a way for them let people know who and what they are and make people talk about it instead of just squirming in their seats or waiting until they leave to talk behind their backs.

Put yourselves in their shoes. How would you feel?


I would feel FABULOUS!
 
2013-07-17 09:32:23 AM  

ph0rk: I have plenty of empathy (well, okay, some). I don't tend to waste it on those that make a point of disregarding what is a real problem, and especially those that make a thinly-veiled reference to how hard they may have it as justification for ignoring the problems of others. That is no different than FYIGM, you just don't have it painted on a yacht.


Holy mother of dog, THIS!

"Sure people may be hungry, or homeless, or abused but I sometimes identify as an unspecified non-gender binary way and feel isolated by the use of gendered pronouns. I'll get around to helping the hungry, homeless, and abused once my own personal battle is won!"
 
2013-07-17 09:32:57 AM  

TV's Vinnie: proteus_b: TV's Vinnie: Of all the politically correct bullsh*t words out there, "waitron" has to be one of the bullshiattiest.

Chill, I think subby made up waitron, in jest of the article...

Sadly, no. "Waitron" really is a word that the PC puckerbutts have been trying to force down our throats since the 80's.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/waitron


This is the first I've heard of it.  In Canada, it's usually "My name is _____ and I'll be your server tonight".

Server = one who serves food.  Waitron = robot who waits?
 
2013-07-17 09:33:25 AM  
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-07-17 09:33:57 AM  

CowardlyLion: DrPainMD: FTA: "...a new generation of young people is..."

And people still insist that "Idiocracy" wasn't a documentary.

Okay, I'll bite. What about that quote has anything to do with Idiocracy?


I'll take "It's Idiotic" for $500, Alex.
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2013-07-17 09:34:11 AM  

Joe Blowme: Obviously seriously confused people, i feel sorry for them. Makes you wonder WTF happened during their prenatal development that caused this affliction. Like Autism, we may never know.


ohyou.jpg
 
2013-07-17 09:34:21 AM  
I'm fed up with this transgendered BS. you are what you were born as. Surgery is not the answer--professional mental health. If you were born with boy parts, you are male. If you have girl parts, female. There is nothign wrong with you. You are great as you are, and do not need to multilate your body (or make everyone else join in your delusion).   There's a very few genetic abnormalities that result in a miniscule percentage being born with some combination of male/female sexual characteristics and those are the few that may indeed need surgery, if they wish, but that is no reason to suddenly pretend gender is a choice. Deal with it. What farking idiocy....
 
2013-07-17 09:34:58 AM  
Lexx: "Your position basically equates people who don't fall into the gender binary as having a disability."

No, it acknowledges that people who are different from the majority are different from the majority. Just as a gay person is different from the majority yet we don't go around stating whether we're homo-, hetero-, bi-, pan-, whatever-sexual at introductions, to avoid anyone feeling uncomfortable about people making the wrong assumption about who they are.

I realize people are sensitive about having their different-ness put under a microscope (in certain situations) as 'different' is often code for 'lesser' or 'bad' among bigots. But the undesirable reactions are not due the way we do or don't acknowledge our differences. It's due the bigotry that has nothing to do with how we introduce ourselves. And changing how we introduce ourselves does nothing about the bigotry.
 
2013-07-17 09:35:26 AM  

Badgers: [i.imgur.com image 202x265]


I think I will identify my gender on official documents as "Canadian Applicant" from here on out. Comedy demands it, and the gods are not mocked.
 
2013-07-17 09:35:43 AM  

Aulus: OK, maybe it's because I am hetero and in  my mid-sixties, but were I in such a situation and someone I had never met chose to introduce themself that way, I'd get up and walk out.

Look, I do not care how you conduct yourself gender or sexual wise in private, but do not feel the need to slap me in the face with it when we are not interacting intimately and/or in public and especially if we have never met and are unlikely to in the future.

IOW, STFU and act like an adult.


Congrats, you've somehow made yourself more obnoxious than the hypothetical person you're referring to. If someone claims they're gender-neutral, I don't really get that, but I'll treat them with the same respect I would anyone. Don't tell other people to act like adults and then be petulant by walking out on folks.
 
2013-07-17 09:36:00 AM  
blah blah blah -- didn't read the article. do not care.

Look like a dude:  I call you a "he"

Look like a lady: I call you a "she"

Dude looks like a lady: I call you ugly and or a freak.

I just don't care about them or their weird ass feelings. If we cater to this bullshiat sooner or later we are going to have 50 different categories of gender because we have to cater to EVERYONE's retarded bullshiat life story.
 
2013-07-17 09:36:32 AM  

Bontesla: Jim_Callahan: While I wasn't raised in a barn, so I can in public basically call anyone whatever they ask to be called by with a straight face, I have to admit that every time someone makes a big deal out of being identified by their obvious biological gender (or getting annoyed when you mess it up, in the case of androgynous people) my actual unspoken reaction is basically "Oh my god who the hell cares".

If shiat like this actually catches on (probably won't) I'll learn it because etiquette is a life skill, but don't expect me to use it outside of formal venues.  PC crap is and always has been an artificial waste of time that conceals an underlying problem instead of or even at the expense of actually fixing it.

You don't care because you don't struggle with it. You take it for granted.

I know of an incredibly brave person who was born a man but just announced their desire to begin the process of gender reassignment. 56 years of being referred to as the wrong gender can wear a person down.

We tend to think of something as less important if it's not something we struggle with.


Yeah tell him or her how the surgery makes you just lose all feeling down there so sex isn't pleasurable any more.
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2013-07-17 09:36:32 AM  

incrdbil: I'm fed up with this transgendered BS. you are what you were born as. Surgery is not the answer--professional mental health. If you were born with boy parts, you are male. If you have girl parts, female. There is nothign wrong with you. You are great as you are, and do not need to multilate your body (or make everyone else join in your delusion).   There's a very few genetic abnormalities that result in a miniscule percentage being born with some combination of male/female sexual characteristics and those are the few that may indeed need surgery, if they wish, but that is no reason to suddenly pretend gender is a choice. Deal with it. What farking idiocy....


That's funny, you ended with exactly what I was thinking as I read this tripe.
 
2013-07-17 09:37:06 AM  

ringersol: Lexx: "Your position basically equates people who don't fall into the gender binary as having a disability."

No, it acknowledges that people who are different from the majority are different from the majority. Just as a gay person is different from the majority yet we don't go around stating whether we're homo-, hetero-, bi-, pan-, whatever-sexual at introductions, to avoid anyone feeling uncomfortable about people making the wrong assumption about who they are.

I realize people are sensitive about having their different-ness put under a microscope (in certain situations) as 'different' is often code for 'lesser' or 'bad' among bigots. But the undesirable reactions are not due the way we do or don't acknowledge our differences. It's due the bigotry that has nothing to do with how we introduce ourselves. And changing how we introduce ourselves does nothing about the bigotry.


It was the fact you used disabled individuals as a comparison.

But yeah, what these people are trying to do is eliminate normative assumptions and a "default" state of gender recognition.  They will fail.
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2013-07-17 09:37:37 AM  

accelerus: blah blah blah -- didn't read the article. do not care.

Look like a dude:  I call you a "he"

Look like a lady: I call you a "she"

Dude looks like a lady: I call you ugly and or a freak.

I just don't care about them or their weird ass feelings. If we cater to this bullshiat sooner or later we are going to have 50 different categories of gender because we have to cater to EVERYONE's retarded bullshiat life story.


/checks profile, sees TX. Well, there's a surprise.
 
2013-07-17 09:40:11 AM  

incrdbil: I'm fed up with this transgendered BS. you are what you were born as. Surgery is not the answer--professional mental health. If you were born with boy parts, you are male. If you have girl parts, female. There is nothign wrong with you. You are great as you are, and do not need to multilate your body (or make everyone else join in your delusion).   There's a very few genetic abnormalities that result in a miniscule percentage being born with some combination of male/female sexual characteristics and those are the few that may indeed need surgery, if they wish, but that is no reason to suddenly pretend gender is a choice. Deal with it. What farking idiocy....


Gender's a social construct. What tackle you've got between your legs is your "biological sex", or just "sex" if you don't like adjectives. That's why we say you are "sexing" a baby chick when you're determining its genital situation, not "gendering" it.
 
2013-07-17 09:40:16 AM  

DGS: accelerus: blah blah blah -- didn't read the article. do not care.

Look like a dude:  I call you a "he"

Look like a lady: I call you a "she"

Dude looks like a lady: I call you ugly and or a freak.

I just don't care about them or their weird ass feelings. If we cater to this bullshiat sooner or later we are going to have 50 different categories of gender because we have to cater to EVERYONE's retarded bullshiat life story.

/checks profile, sees TX. Well, there's a surprise.


OMIGOD he just does not CARE OK!
 
2013-07-17 09:40:33 AM  

liam76: HotWingConspiracy: liam76: But this I am special I need a new made up group? It is farking BS.

I see it the other way. It seems like they're saying they aren't special, and the made up group is essentially a non-identity in terms of gender.

If they aren't special why do they need a made up group?


I'd say all groups are made up, you're just comfortable with the prevailing ones. I mean, I am too, I think the Tractor guy is getting a bit ahead of himself. But I get it on a thought experiment level, and I don't think their mentality is "I'm special so cater to me".
 
2013-07-17 09:40:46 AM  
And after you tell me your "preferred" pronoun, why do I have to keep track of that again?  I think your preferred gender is less important to me than it is to you.  Is that not a sign of a post-gender society?  Hasn't the LGBT community been actually asking for that very thing?  Stop trying to be special.  You're not.  But you are annoying.
 
2013-07-17 09:41:47 AM  
Since when where pronouns ment to identify an individuals personal  sexual preference?
 
2013-07-17 09:41:47 AM  

xcv: [media.tumblr.com image 467x644]


I'm offended that "drag king" is given preeminence over "drag queen". This simply reinforces traditional gender/power roles.

/except that drag kings are women dressing as men so it's empowering
//but doesn't that disempower men who identify as women?
/// what about men who identify as women but who still dress as men?
/\/does that make them drag kings or closet queens?
 
2013-07-17 09:42:07 AM  
Rapmaster2000: "I think it's interesting how we have gendered terms for some things and not others."

To be clear, I have little problem with a proposal that we move formal speech to a default gender neutral pronoun. So if the proposal is that we move formal speech to they/them/theirs, I'm fine with that. I try to do that anyway, just because online discussions are amongst parties that are essentially impossible to discern.

If the proposed solution is we invent new neutral pronouns... that seems a bit silly given we have some. But if there are good arguments, I'm open to arguing and weighing the merits.

But having every single person identify preferred pronouns at introductions? That's just absurd.
 
2013-07-17 09:42:23 AM  
So basically body image problems like anorexics and goths and wrist cutters. Bless their hearts
 
2013-07-17 09:42:27 AM  

incrdbil: I'm fed up with this transgendered BS. you are what you were born as. Surgery is not the answer--professional mental health. If you were born with boy parts, you are male. If you have girl parts, female. There is nothign wrong with you. You are great as you are, and do not need to multilate your body (or make everyone else join in your delusion).   There's a very few genetic abnormalities that result in a miniscule percentage being born with some combination of male/female sexual characteristics and those are the few that may indeed need surgery, if they wish, but that is no reason to suddenly pretend gender is a choice. Deal with it. What farking idiocy....


It's a good thing that you've extensively studied the issue, otherwise you would sound like a real prick.
 
2013-07-17 09:43:07 AM  
Can we please just shut down every liberal arts department at every university? Please?
 
2013-07-17 09:43:36 AM  

incrdbil: I'm fed up with this transgendered BS. you are what you were born as. Surgery is not the answer--professional mental health. If you were born with boy parts, you are male. If you have girl parts, female. There is nothign wrong with you. You are great as you are, and do not need to multilate your body (or make everyone else join in your delusion).   There's a very few genetic abnormalities that result in a miniscule percentage being born with some combination of male/female sexual characteristics and those are the few that may indeed need surgery, if they wish, but that is no reason to suddenly pretend gender is a choice. Deal with it. What farking idiocy....


So do you just reject the science behind gender being a mental as well as a physical state?
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2013-07-17 09:44:32 AM  

Joe Blowme: So basically body image problems like anorexics and goths and wrist cutters. Bless their hearts


Yes, goths and wrist cutters are generally individuals bearing body image issues. It's good to know we've got a resident expert on the topic.
 
2013-07-17 09:45:10 AM  
I think the poster who said previously that the majority of us walking around the planet, especially in the US, are just concerned with being, and are not further trying to segregate ourselves or anyone else by creating classes of gender or any other classes for that matter.

I see a person in front of me, and that is all. Just because I choose not to address every fringe group and learn their way of thinking does not mean I am a racist or a bigot. Nor is it my fault for having been born hetero. I just do not like people lecturing me on how I should react and think.

Years ago I was dating a beautiful girl from Bolivia who was getting her PHD in political science, and this meant a lot of my time was spent with grad students. They all looked down on me because I was a network engineer, had a job, a new car, and were all a bit incensed that had swooped in on the hot girl of the department.

One day I brought them all dinner(because i had a job) and we were sitting there and this jackass says to me "Norm, thanks for dinner but you should realize that there is more to life than material things, I just spend six weeks traveling in south america, and it was uplifting learning how the reast of the world lives and communing with the peasants. You should try that sometime."

I looked at my girl and said in spanish"you know i have kept my mouth shut for weeks with these jerks, now may i say something?"

The guys says to me "you can speak spanish?" I informed that my father was Colombian and that although my degree was in information systems, i had lived in Colombia for five years, worked and studied economics and that it was very insulting to call third world denizens peasants.

Moral of the story is that I do not wear heritage, education, experience, sexuality, or opinions on my sleeve. Nor do I try to shove them down anyones throat or consider anyone who does not think the way I do to be a bigot, racist, or idiot.
 
2013-07-17 09:45:16 AM  

Danger Mouse: Since when where pronouns ment to identify an individuals personal  sexual preference?


They aren't talking about sexual preference.
 
2013-07-17 09:45:33 AM  
will their be "special" enforcement laws? Will i get hate crime charges if i refuse to play this stupid game? Or should i just be nice to them like i am to the other handicapped people i interact with? What about potato queers? Is potato even a gender? It is now, i command it.
 
2013-07-17 09:47:05 AM  

ringersol: If the proposed solution is we invent new neutral pronouns... that seems a bit silly given we have some. But if there are good arguments, I'm open to arguing and weighing the merits.


You can call me shiatload, cause there's a shiatload of us in here.
 
2013-07-17 09:47:10 AM  

Joe Blowme: will their be "special" enforcement laws? Will i get hate crime charges if i refuse to play this stupid game? Or should i just be nice to them like i am to the other handicapped people i interact with? What about potato queers? Is potato even a gender? It is now, i command it.

 
2013-07-17 09:48:41 AM  
Listen here, Pat.  Either you're a cock sucker or you're not.
 
2013-07-17 09:48:50 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: CowardlyLion: DrPainMD: FTA: "...a new generation of young people is..."

And people still insist that "Idiocracy" wasn't a documentary.

Okay, I'll bite. What about that quote has anything to do with Idiocracy?

I'll take "It's Idiotic" for $500, Alex.


Thanks for totally clearing that up with your brilliant explanation.
 
2013-07-17 09:48:51 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Joe Blowme: will their be "special" enforcement laws? Will i get hate crime charges if i refuse to play this stupid game? Or should i just be nice to them like i am to the other handicapped people i interact with? What about potato queers? Is potato even a gender? It is now, i command it.


Let's try that again

img.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-17 09:49:13 AM  
What about people who self identify as "not farking calling you that"?
 
2013-07-17 09:49:51 AM  
ringersol:

To be clear, I have little problem with a proposal that we move formal speech to a default gender neutral pronoun. So if the proposal is that we move formal speech to they/them/theirs, I'm fine with that. I try to do that anyway, just because online discussions are amongst parties that are essentially impossible to discern.

If the proposed solution is we invent new neutral pronouns... that seems a bit silly given we have some. But if there are good arguments, I'm open to arguing and weighing the merits.


I'm pretty certain we will invent new neutral and non-neutral pronouns whether we like it or not.  Language evolves.  We've already phased out thou, thee, thine, thy, thyself, and ye.

I the 20th century Pittsburghers invented their own gender neutral pronoun:  yinz.
 
2013-07-17 09:51:18 AM  

Akbar the Trappiste Monk: here to help: And I think people are missing the point. This is more than likely being done to shove the issue to the front of the conversation. A friend of mine has been going through a REAL hard time with this exact scenario. I call her she because that's how I met her. Born a female but very androgynous and before anyone starts saying "lesbo AW! Whargharble!!1" there are severe chemical and physical differences with her. For example she could grow a beard as a teen. Imagine how f*cking terrible and confusing that would have been. She held all that gender crap in and just played the part of girl/tomboy. Dated guys and chicks but mostly just wasn't interested in sex. She hid it from most of her friends even though we are all supposedly open minded and ultra progressive people. Well a few years back she was completely breaking down because of the stress of this and started talking to doctors (who confirmed the physical gender problems) and her friends. Well apparently a lot of people were complete assholes to her about it. It was shocking considering the community. Very pro equal rights across the board but for some reason just the thought of a trans gender made them all wonky. Very disappointing. I guess I am one of the few she's been able to talk to about it and I find that heartbreaking.

So no. It's not easy for these people and this is obviously a way for them let people know who and what they are and make people talk about it instead of just squirming in their seats or waiting until they leave to talk behind their backs.

Put yourselves in their shoes. How would you feel?

I would feel FABULOUS!


I would also get work blood work and check to see if I had any hormone imbalances that needed to be addressed. Asexuality isn't real to many because well that's what we're programmed to do in our DNA is to procreate. Many claim to be A sexual but it's more a cover for our own fears of having sex for the first time since western civilization puts a lot of high expectations on both partners.

A good example of this is my artist I work with in Wales. She said she was A-sexual I didn't say anything because she was early 20s and never had sex yet. Then the moment she did fall in love with a male she liked and started dating I noticed she no longer declared she was A-sexual.  She changed from Miss Shy and Unsure and conservative artist to a more open and romantic artist.  I asked if she was Asexual one day and She said back "A sexual beast but not A-sexual,"
 
2013-07-17 09:52:16 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: ph0rk: I have plenty of empathy (well, okay, some). I don't tend to waste it on those that make a point of disregarding what is a real problem, and especially those that make a thinly-veiled reference to how hard they may have it as justification for ignoring the problems of others. That is no different than FYIGM, you just don't have it painted on a yacht.

Holy mother of dog, THIS!

"Sure people may be hungry, or homeless, or abused but I sometimes identify as an unspecified non-gender binary way and feel isolated by the use of gendered pronouns. I'll get around to helping the hungry, homeless, and abused once my own personal battle is won!"


I have literally never seen or heard a trans or queer-gendered person make this argument(though perhaps that just means I don't traffic with jerks). The only people I've ever seen make it are social conservatives who feel the social pressure to be polite to another human as a huge imposition upon them and try to make it seem ridiculous as a result. What you're saying is really no different than harassers calling out women for "causing a scene" by objecting to being manhandled by strangers in public, or immigrants as "traitorous" and "nationalist" for having pride in where they're from, or black folks as being "hypocrites" for objecting to white folks using certain words that some AAs sometimes use to refer to each other.
 
2013-07-17 09:53:09 AM  
I find this discussion ephemeral, its proponents a bore, and the end-result generally underwhelming. The role of language it to provide a framework for communication under which we can all agree that certain sounds represent certain concepts. People like to fark with it in the hopes that changing the framework will change reality around to a new configuration. (This doesn't happen, historically, but people like to dream.)

If the argument is that pronouns are just labels, and humans label things however they want, so you can use whatever pronoun you want to refer to yourself, whether it's he or her or ou or zee or shim or anything -- cool. I'm totally fine with it. Enjoy yourself. But recognize you're working at destroying the framework of the language we use to refer to one another and that this will make future communication quite complicated. Perhaps complex communication is what you're after. That's also cool, but if you're that hung up on pronouns I suspect that you're a boring coont and not someone worth talking to in the first place.

Don't get upset at me thinking you're a boring coont. It's just a label. Humans label things however they want. That's my label for people hung up on their pronouns. Boring coonts, be they boy-coonts or girl-coonts or ou-coonts or zee-coonts or gender-fluid-coonts.

That's my solution. You needed a custom non-cis-gender-confirming pronoun to properly express yourself? You're lumped into the 'coont' category. A coontegory, if you will. I can make new labels, too. I certainly mean no offense and trust you'll respect my unique perspective on this. After all, we're all human, at least 'til you find new words to describe that state of being, too.

/I once saw someone write that they were cool with anyone, even a omnisexual gender-queer species-fluid trans-bovine, as long as this individual shows up for work on time.
//They moo no offense, of course.
 
2013-07-17 09:53:10 AM  
call yourself whatever you want.  others may or may not agree to call you that.

in reality, you are what your genes say you are.
 
2013-07-17 09:54:54 AM  
 
2013-07-17 09:55:59 AM  
I've always wondered why some people are SO happy to embrace certain "I was born this way but I feel like X" and absolutely laugh their ass off at others.  My wife will point out all the time how we have extra privillages cause we're both cis-gendered, but people who think they feel like a dragon on the inside?  "Lol that's so stupid."  Anime dorks who think they're Asian on the inside?  Racist dorks.  I've known trans people to say, "I was supposed to be a woman," or whatever, which to me means something is physically not right between the structure of the brain and the body/hormones it produces.  If one person experiences this as being emotionally a different gender, and one person supposedly experiences this as, "I'm a pikachu inside," why is one laughable and one a totally viable identity choice?

I mean is it hard to believe that someone who goes around identifying themselves as a Snorlax and refusing to be woken up by any alarm clock that isn't attached to a pokeflute doesn't have something seriously wrong with them?
 
2013-07-17 09:56:25 AM  
I'll go as far as saying "he", "she", "dude with chick junk" or "chick with dude junk."
 
2013-07-17 09:57:09 AM  

here to help: liam76: here to help: These folks are isolated and marginalized.

By their own imagination.

By pretend walls they have created.

these folks are inventing opression. fark them

Right.


How are they marginalized?

this coont, "So you can be she/her at one event and then you go to lunch and you say, OK, now I am he/him. And then one charming young woman told me, oh, yes, today, I'm just using made up pronouns."

That isn't some poor bastard who had the misfortune to want to be another gender who isn't going to feel comfortable being adressed with the gender they are bilogically associsted with.  That is a vapid coont who who thinks her whims on what to people should call her demand respect from the world.  Her isolation (and I doubt there isd any) comes from her own BS.


here to help: And we all know how tolerant and totally not bigoted you are


So rather than adress the nonsense in the article you are going to make shiat up about me?


Headso: The opposite yet equally out of touch view as the article


We are talking about the article.

People who change their prefered gender pronouns daily and occasionally create them are marginilzed only by their self centered "snowflake" whims.  And in my opinion rightly so.  I am not going to take the tiem or effort to constantly check then change how I adress soemone, espceically when it includes made up pronouns.
 
2013-07-17 09:57:31 AM  

Joe Blowme: will their be "special" enforcement laws? Will i get hate crime charges if i refuse to play this stupid game? Or should i just be nice to them like i am to the other handicapped people i interact with? What about potato queers? Is potato even a gender? It is now, i command it.


you're a victim and your prefered pronouns are vic and vicky?
 
2013-07-17 09:58:25 AM  

CowardlyLion: Thanks for totally clearing that up with your brilliant explanation.


I would have thought it was self explanatory which is why I didn't write you a farking dissertation but apparently you're a little slow.

The referenced statement "...a new generation of young people is..." implies that insistence on personal pronouns is a fad among younger people. This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population. The implication is that since "young people" are obsessed with these trivialities, they are an example of successive generations getting dumber which was the core premise of Idiocracy.

Thank you for helping to demonstrate that Idiocracy was, if not a documentary, prophecy.
 
2013-07-17 09:58:33 AM  

Super_pope: I've always wondered why some people are SO happy to embrace certain "I was born this way but I feel like X" and absolutely laugh their ass off at others.  My wife will point out all the time how we have extra privillages cause we're both cis-gendered, but people who think they feel like a dragon on the inside?  "Lol that's so stupid."  Anime dorks who think they're Asian on the inside?  Racist dorks.  I've known trans people to say, "I was supposed to be a woman," or whatever, which to me means something is physically not right between the structure of the brain and the body/hormones it produces.  If one person experiences this as being emotionally a different gender, and one person supposedly experiences this as, "I'm a pikachu inside," why is one laughable and one a totally viable identity choice?

I mean is it hard to believe that someone who goes around identifying themselves as a Snorlax and refusing to be woken up by any alarm clock that isn't attached to a pokeflute doesn't have something seriously wrong with them?


Because it's all about me.
 
2013-07-17 09:58:40 AM  
If you were born with a penis you're male. If you were born with a vagina you're female. You're free to do whatever the hell you want with them after you're born and I couldn't care less, but biology is biology. I'm not a duck just because I say so.
 
2013-07-17 10:00:15 AM  

Headso: Joe Blowme: will their be "special" enforcement laws? Will i get hate crime charges if i refuse to play this stupid game? Or should i just be nice to them like i am to the other handicapped people i interact with? What about potato queers? Is potato even a gender? It is now, i command it.

you're a victim and your prefered pronouns are vic and vicky?


NO, i choose potato, so don't be a bigot and just accept my potato-ness

/POTATO!!!
 
2013-07-17 10:01:19 AM  

alice_600: Put yourselves in their shoes. How would you feel?

I would feel FABULOUS!

I would also get work blood work and check to see if I had any hormone imbalances that needed to be addressed. Asexuality isn't real to many because well that's what we're programmed to do in our DNA is to procreate. Many claim to be A sexual but it's more a cover for our own fears of having sex for the first time since western civilization puts a lot of high expectations on both partners.

A good example of this is my artist I work with in Wales. She said she was A-sexual I didn't say anything because she was early 20s and never had sex yet. Then the moment she did fall in love with a male she liked and started dating I noticed she no longer declared she was A-sexual.  She changed from Miss Shy and Unsure and conservative artist to a more open and romantic artist.  I asked if she was Asexual one day and She said back "A sexual beast but not A-sexual,"


Good for your friend, but your friend isn't every human being, ever. Asexuals do exist and -even if they didn't- what the heck is wrong with allowing someone to identify how they please? Would you insist on calling someone one name when they legally changed it to another? Arguments like this really remind me of the late 90s gay scene(not to say straights didn't and don't still do the same thing) and it's adamant refusal to accept that bisexuality could be a thing: "yeah he says he's bi but he's being pretty monogamous with Carlos so obviously he was always gay"; "sure she used to date a guy, but she's only dated women for the last two years so she's really a lesbian".
 
2013-07-17 10:01:25 AM  

CowardlyLion: Okay, I'll bite. What about that quote has anything to do with Idiocracy?


Only the central theme of the movie of how successive generations were getting dumber and dumber.
 
2013-07-17 10:01:33 AM  
May I suggest the term 'b*tch'?

"B*tch, where's my food?"
"B*tch, where's my beer?"
"I would like some coffee, b*tch."
"I took this b*tch to the football game, he had a great time."
"I took this b*tch to dinner, she loved the ribeye."
*opens the door* "You're welcome. B*tch."
"B*tch owes me money."
 
2013-07-17 10:02:08 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: CowardlyLion: Thanks for totally clearing that up with your brilliant explanation.

I would have thought it was self explanatory which is why I didn't write you a farking dissertation but apparently you're a little slow.

The referenced statement "...a new generation of young people is..." implies that insistence on personal pronouns is a fad among younger people. This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population. The implication is that since "young people" are obsessed with these trivialities, they are an example of successive generations getting dumber which was the core premise of Idiocracy.

Thank you for helping to demonstrate that Idiocracy was, if not a documentary, prophecy.


You're calling a shiattily made comedy movie a prophecy, but it's kids who are obsessed with trivialities? Buy a mirror.
 
2013-07-17 10:02:29 AM  
When did we as a society started giving a shiat what kids and young people think? Kids are young people are dumber than shiat.
 
2013-07-17 10:02:48 AM  
I'm telling you, the best place for transgender people is working at the airport for TSA.

They can frisk anyone and nobody could really complain.  If anything the confusion of what is frisking you would lessen the inconvenience.
 
2013-07-17 10:03:17 AM  

Danger Mouse: Since when where pronouns ment to identify an individuals personal  sexual preference?


Who says sexual preference has anything to do with pronouns?
 
2013-07-17 10:04:07 AM  

Super_pope: I've always wondered why some people are SO happy to embrace certain "I was born this way but I feel like X" and absolutely laugh their ass off at others.  My wife will point out all the time how we have extra privillages cause we're both cis-gendered, but people who think they feel like a dragon on the inside?  "Lol that's so stupid."  Anime dorks who think they're Asian on the inside?  Racist dorks.  I've known trans people to say, "I was supposed to be a woman," or whatever, which to me means something is physically not right between the structure of the brain and the body/hormones it produces.  If one person experiences this as being emotionally a different gender, and one person supposedly experiences this as, "I'm a pikachu inside," why is one laughable and one a totally viable identity choice?

I mean is it hard to believe that someone who goes around identifying themselves as a Snorlax and refusing to be woken up by any alarm clock that isn't attached to a pokeflute doesn't have something seriously wrong with them?


otherkin...oh the otherkin. Is it just me or  does tumblr seem to have more crazy per-capita than an insane asylum?
 
2013-07-17 10:04:46 AM  

Rurouni: When did we as a society started giving a shiat what kids and young people think? Kids are young people are dumber than shiat.


Facebook and the Internet have led over-priveleged idiots to believe that their opinions actually matter.
 
2013-07-17 10:04:47 AM  

ThatDarkFellow: If you were born with a penis you're male. If you were born with a vagina you're female. You're free to do whatever the hell you want with them after you're born and I couldn't care less, but biology is biology. I'm not a duck just because I say so.


sex != gender
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2013-07-17 10:06:36 AM  

Rurouni: Kids are young people are dumber than shiat.


Quick question: how old are you?
 
2013-07-17 10:08:01 AM  

Heron: I have literally never seen or heard a trans or queer-gendered person make this argument(though perhaps that just means I don't traffic with jerks). The only people I've ever seen make it are social conservatives who feel the social pressure to be polite to another human as a huge imposition upon them and try to make it seem ridiculous as a result.


I wasted one night a year listening to a group of LGBT people on a social justice committee do precisely what I implied i.e. obsess about how they are treated socially and ignore that there are people with actual life threatening issues. Maybe you'd like to scroll back to my little tangent into "cool story bro" time. That experience irrevocably altered how I view anyone attempting to "raise awareness" for an issue that is not directly life threatening.

What you're saying is really no different than harassers calling out women for "causing a scene" by objecting to being manhandled by strangers in public, or immigrants as "traitorous" and "nationalist" for having pride in where they're from, or black folks as being "hypocrites" for objecting to white folks using certain words that some AAs sometimes use to refer to each other.

This is bullshiat, plain and simple. The fact that you don't seem to be able to distinguish between actual harassment or assault and failing to cater to the whims of another regarding how they would like to be addressed is the clearest indication that you have lost all perspective. I do make that distinction. I distinguish physical pain, hunger, and legitimate fear for one's life from having one's feelings hurt or being socially awkward.
 
2013-07-17 10:08:06 AM  

DGS: Rurouni: Kids are young people are dumber than shiat.

Quick question: how old are you?


He'll be seven and a half in October, why?
 
2013-07-17 10:08:10 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: liam76: HotWingConspiracy: liam76: But this I am special I need a new made up group? It is farking BS.

I see it the other way. It seems like they're saying they aren't special, and the made up group is essentially a non-identity in terms of gender.

If they aren't special why do they need a made up group?

I'd say all groups are made up, you're just comfortable with the prevailing ones. I mean, I am too, I think the Tractor guy is getting a bit ahead of himself. But I get it on a thought experiment level, and I don't think their mentality is "I'm special so cater to me".


If you are daily switching gender pronouns and even creating them, yes you are asking for special attention.

fark them, and fark people who think they are victims here.

That isn't comprable with people who are living for years as the "wrong" gender.  These are people playing games.
 
2013-07-17 10:08:22 AM  
Monkeyhouse Zendo:  This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population.

Ze/zim/zis?
 
2013-07-17 10:09:01 AM  

liam76: People who change their prefered gender pronouns daily and occasionally create them are marginilzed only by their self centered "snowflake" whims.  And in my opinion rightly so.  I am not going to take the tiem or effort to constantly check then change how I adress soemone, espceically when it includes made up pronouns.


Most of the people doing this are probably in the transgender community so they are marginalized and isolated. I guess if your belief is these people are all perfectly mainstream except for the pronoun thing then sure in that unrealistic scenario they are doing it to themselves.
 
2013-07-17 10:09:26 AM  

WhippingBoy: Because it's all about me.


I guess.  Its just weird to me that we look at the kid who thinks he's Kratos from God of War on the inside and go, "Lol that kid's crazy, because there's no such thing as Kratos," and shove him in the psyche ward, but if you're a guy who thinks he feels like a girl on the inside its all, "Well girls exist, so we'd better get you some surgery to help your body be more like the girl you feel like on the inside."  Like why are these things different?  What if he thought he was a chimp on the inside?  We've only got like a 1% overall genetic differential between us and chimps, is it really super different for him to say he feels like a chimp than to say he feels like a woman?  Why don't we let him get his tibia shortened so he can have a more ape-like gait so that he can be happy and look more like he feels?

Its just weird to me that we consider one of these things a relative normal identity that should be treated as equally viable, and one as a person being crazy/an AW, when really they seem like the same problem where the person has latched onto different expressions of what they think would make them feel comfortable/happy.
 
2013-07-17 10:09:36 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I wasted one night a year listening to a group of LGBT people on a social justice committee do precisely what I implied i.e. obsess about how they are treated socially and ignore that there are people with actual life threatening issues.


So you showed up to a LGBT social justice committee meeting and were surprised when they talked about social justice for LGBT people? Honest question, can you count to 2?
 
2013-07-17 10:10:19 AM  
Lexx: "It was the fact you used disabled individuals as a comparison."

It wasn't a strict comparison, it was an analogy; a partial comparison for illustrative purposes.
I chose the disabled because it highlights how incredibly cruel it can be, to make everyone who is *not* different, explicitly state that they are *not different* in front of someone who *is* and then making that person who *is* different explicitly *request* the additional affordances that are otherwise left implied by a civilized society.

My point is an aside to whether they (inevitably) fail. The proposal, beyond it's inevitable failure, sounds incredibly cruel to me.
 
2013-07-17 10:11:11 AM  
We need a gender-neutral pronoun just so I can deal with the Pat's of the world with as little explanatory discussion as possible. Beyond that, unless you're looking to date me or my kids I don't give a fark what you think about gender.

ts3.mm.bing.net
 
2013-07-17 10:11:55 AM  

ph0rk: Lexx: Your position basically equates people who don't fall into the gender binary as having a disability.  I think that may be one of the fundamental points of argument.  Having come to terms with their different-ness, they want to change the English language & social customs to normalize their condition in the eyes of the general public, or at least create the perception that gender is fluid & not binary.

I pity them for this, since has a snowball's chance in hell of happening.

That is the usual argument, and I agree - the main problem is just numbers. There are (and will in all likelihood) continue to be more 'cisgender' folks than queer/whatever folks. It is terribly hard to get nine tenths of the population to refer to themselves as a specific category when they think of themselves as just being.

I vaguely recall seeing references to the "fully-abled" but I assume most are in jest.


Heron: That's actually how I picked up the usage, too; it was just far simpler and lazier to use "they/their" in my academic writing than to constantly be switching between him/her when writing about theoretical people :p Finding out later that my natural instinct in this regard was backed up by historically correct English grammar was a nice bonus :)

Do you happen to have a cite handy? I hadn't heard about the older singular usage before.


The etymology section of wikipedia's "They" article is a good breakdown. Under "Usage" it points out that Oxford traces official use of the singular "they" back only to the 16th century, but it's important to remember that English wasn't really systematized until that time, and that the roots of that use go back much further (which is to suggest that colloquial, non-recorded use likely preserved what the Frenchified upper-classes abandoned, only to be picked up once again when the English elites became interested in distinguishing themselves from the French ~the Tudor period).
 
2013-07-17 10:14:21 AM  

thurstonxhowell: Monkeyhouse Zendo: I wasted one night a year listening to a group of LGBT people on a social justice committee do precisely what I implied i.e. obsess about how they are treated socially and ignore that there are people with actual life threatening issues.

So you showed up to a LGBT social justice committee meeting and were surprised when they talked about social justice for LGBT people? Honest question, can you count to 2?


No, I showed up at my Unitarian Church's social justice committee with the apparently unwarranted assumption that a church based social justice committee might be interested in assisting the hungry, homeless and abused. I didn't realize at the time that the term "social justice" had been co-opted by the LGBT community to mean "raising awareness of LGBT issues".

But yeah, way to jump right in with those assumptions.
 
2013-07-17 10:15:14 AM  

Theaetetus: Monkeyhouse Zendo:  This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population.

Ze/zim/zis?


What's wrong with "it"?
 
2013-07-17 10:15:39 AM  
I wish political correctness was generated by a physical machine and I had an opportunity to smash it to pieces.
 
2013-07-17 10:15:51 AM  

Theaetetus: Monkeyhouse Zendo:  This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population.

Ze/zim/zis?


It/Its and They/Their
 
2013-07-17 10:16:43 AM  

DGS: accelerus: blah blah blah -- didn't read the article. do not care.

Look like a dude:  I call you a "he"

Look like a lady: I call you a "she"

Dude looks like a lady: I call you ugly and or a freak.

I just don't care about them or their weird ass feelings. If we cater to this bullshiat sooner or later we are going to have 50 different categories of gender because we have to cater to EVERYONE's retarded bullshiat life story.

/checks profile, sees TX. Well, there's a surprise.


Wow.  How's it feel up there on your soapbox?
 
2013-07-17 10:18:01 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: Monkeyhouse Zendo:  This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population.

Ze/zim/zis?

It/Its


Dehumanizing.

and They/Their

Plural.

Inadequate on both counts.
 
2013-07-17 10:18:50 AM  

Headso: liam76: People who change their prefered gender pronouns daily and occasionally create them are marginilzed only by their self centered "snowflake" whims.  And in my opinion rightly so.  I am not going to take the tiem or effort to constantly check then change how I adress soemone, espceically when it includes made up pronouns.

Most of the people doing this are probably in the transgender community so they are marginalized and isolated.


Once again, read the farking article.

Transgender people don't daily change which gender they choose to idnetify with.

They don't make up gender pronouns.

And I am pretty sure a person born as a dude who wanted to be identified as a girl would be a little upset if after they had surgery, put on a dress and tried very hard to look like a woman they were asked daily what gender they identify with.  I don't know, fark TG brigade want to weigh in here?


Headso: I guess if your belief is these people are all perfectly mainstream except for the pronoun thing then sure in that unrealistic scenario they are doing it to themselves


The article is abotu shifting pronoun "thing".  they may very well face problems because of how they lok/dress etc, but that is all outside of the shifting pronoun thing.  You know the popint of the article.  If you are making up pronouns, and changing what you want to be called daily, yes you are doing it to yourself, and yes the "marginilization" that coems fromt hat is all your own doing.
 
2013-07-17 10:19:12 AM  

Heron: alice_600: Put yourselves in their shoes. How would you feel?

I would feel FABULOUS!

I would also get work blood work and check to see if I had any hormone imbalances that needed to be addressed. Asexuality isn't real to many because well that's what we're programmed to do in our DNA is to procreate. Many claim to be A sexual but it's more a cover for our own fears of having sex for the first time since western civilization puts a lot of high expectations on both partners.

A good example of this is my artist I work with in Wales. She said she was A-sexual I didn't say anything because she was early 20s and never had sex yet. Then the moment she did fall in love with a male she liked and started dating I noticed she no longer declared she was A-sexual.  She changed from Miss Shy and Unsure and conservative artist to a more open and romantic artist.  I asked if she was Asexual one day and She said back "A sexual beast but not A-sexual,"

Good for your friend, but your friend isn't every human being, ever. Asexuals do exist and -even if they didn't- what the heck is wrong with allowing someone to identify how they please? Would you insist on calling someone one name when they legally changed it to another? Arguments like this really remind me of the late 90s gay scene(not to say straights didn't and don't still do the same thing) and it's adamant refusal to accept that bisexuality could be a thing: "yeah he says he's bi but he's being pretty monogamous with Carlos so obviously he was always gay"; "sure she used to date a guy, but she's only dated women for the last two years so she's really a lesbian".


Not saying there isn't a thing as bi sexuality there is because some people just need to get comfortable in thier skin. I learned in life that you need to face your own fears and not whimper and moan when things don't go your way. Even science says lack of sexual desire is a mental if not a biological problem. Your friend could just not feel worthy of sexual intimacy or love. If they are not happy then it's not true Asexual it's a problem that can be easily fixed.
 
2013-07-17 10:19:36 AM  

Theaetetus: Inadequate on both counts.


Honestly don't give a shiat. As far as I'm concerned, what we're talking about is narcissism.
 
2013-07-17 10:20:56 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: Inadequate on both counts.

Honestly don't give a shiat. As far as I'm concerned, what we're talking about is narcissism.


"We already have gender neutral pronouns!"
"No, we don't."
"Well, I don't care!"

You may think that's a reasonable argument. Others may think you're throwing a tantrum.
 
2013-07-17 10:21:51 AM  

Theaetetus: Dehumanizing.


It is very rude to people who feel on the inside like they are objects to use "dehumanizing" as a judgmental term. That is the transition many of them are going through right now and it is very insensitive to use it in a derogatory way.
 
2013-07-17 10:23:38 AM  

Theaetetus: "We already have gender neutral pronouns!"
"No, we don't. They aren't ones that I like."
"Well, I don't care!"


Fixed that for you.
 
2013-07-17 10:23:42 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: [i26.photobucket.com image 800x451]


WTF does that even mean? I've asked every time I see the pic posted (and when I see the movie), but no one has been able to answer. Sounds to me like he's smart-mouthing off to the cop:

Cop: "Are you human?"
Corbin: "Negative, I'm a meat Popsicle."

... but I'd think that would earn him a beat-down.
 
2013-07-17 10:24:49 AM  
Ou gives a fu?

Give your head a shake, and do something to improve your self-esteem.
This is pretty narcissistic, IMHO.
 
2013-07-17 10:24:57 AM  

Aulus: OK, maybe it's because I am hetero and in  my mid-sixties, but were I in such a situation and someone I had never met chose to introduce themself that way, I'd get up and walk out.

Look, I do not care how you conduct yourself gender or sexual wise in private, but do not feel the need to slap me in the face with it when we are not interacting intimately and/or in public and especially if we have never met and are unlikely to in the future.

IOW, STFU and act like an adult.


I knew someone else would explain this, thus saving me the trouble.
 
2013-07-17 10:24:59 AM  

liam76: The article is abotu shifting pronoun "thing". they may very well face problems because of how they lok/dress etc, but that is all outside of the shifting pronoun thing. You know the popint of the article. If you are making up pronouns, and changing what you want to be called daily, yes you are doing it to yourself, and yes the "marginilization" that coems fromt hat is all your own doing.


Oh no. Young people are exploring new ways of thinking! They must be stopped!
 
2013-07-17 10:25:17 AM  

fredklein: WTF does that even mean? I've asked every time I see the pic posted (and when I see the movie), but no one has been able to answer. Sounds to me like he's smart-mouthing off to the cop:

Cop: "Are you human?"
Corbin: "Negative, I'm a meat Popsicle."

... but I'd think that would earn him a beat-down.


Are you questioning Corbin Dallas's right to self identify as a mean popsicle and denying him the basic courtesy of being addressed as such?
 
2013-07-17 10:25:22 AM  

liam76:

I AM ANGRY ABOUT THE CLENIS!!!


We know, liam. We know.
 
2013-07-17 10:26:04 AM  
If you're no particular gender then you won't mind if I kick you in the balls, will you?
 
2013-07-17 10:27:09 AM  

thurstonxhowell: Oh no. Young people are exploring new ways of thinking! They must be stopped!


More like "young people are exploring largely pointless and unproductive ways of thinking rather than making any effort to address actual issues of human suffering".
 
2013-07-17 10:28:11 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: "We already have gender neutral pronouns!"
"No, we don't. They aren't ones that I like."
"Well, I don't care!"

Fixed that for you.


^
 
2013-07-17 10:28:15 AM  
What about a$$hole? That's gender neutral. Can I call you a$$hole? I identified your self for you  and assigned you a gneder neutral pronoun.
And why pronoun? Isn't that discriminatory against amateur nouns?
 
2013-07-17 10:28:34 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: If I'm ever presented with the statement "my preferred pronouns are X/Y/Z" my response will be "how about I just call you narcissist?"

Monkeyhouse Zendo: This is now my perception when anyone mentions raising awareness or the LGBT community: endless talk and narcissism while actual human misery is ignored.

Monkeyhouse Zendo: What we're discussing here is narcissism.

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Honestly don't give a shiat. As far as I'm concerned, what we're talking about is narcissism.


Traits and signs of narcissism:
An obvious self-focus in interpersonal relationships
Difficulty with empathy
Hypersensitivity
Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people


... I think what we're really talking about is projection.
 
2013-07-17 10:28:40 AM  

Surpheon: We need a gender-neutral pronoun just so I can deal with the Pat's of the world with as little explanatory discussion as possible. Beyond that, unless you're looking to date me or my kids I don't give a fark what you think about gender.

[ts3.mm.bing.net image 240x187]


Why does that person think that passing for male requires that they pretend not to have a neck?
 
2013-07-17 10:29:00 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: thurstonxhowell: Oh no. Young people are exploring new ways of thinking! They must be stopped!

More like "young people are exploring largely pointless and unproductive ways of thinking rather than making any effort to address actual issues of human suffering".


Which is totally different from what young people usually do.
 
2013-07-17 10:29:16 AM  
Good manners cost nothing, thus if my waiter/waitress/serving body decided to share more than the daily specials and take my order, I would smile, listen and respond politely.  Once I had finished my meal, I would thank them and go; w/o leaving a tip.  I would behave in exactly the same way if the waiter/waitress/serving body told me about their nasty breakup, children's ailments or pet kitten's allergy to flea medication.  I'm not in a restaurant to form friendships with the rest of humanity; I'm there to eat.

I'm not a very social person anyway, but I'm really not interested in a complete stranger's personal beliefs and identity crisis.  I have enough practical problems of my own and if their need for validation is so great they insist on boring customers to death with the tale, they're facing much greater obstacles than which bathroom they wish to use.
 
2013-07-17 10:29:28 AM  
I spent three years trying to get people to say "shway" instead of "cool."

Never took off.  Just like Batman Beyond.

So good luck!
 
2013-07-17 10:29:37 AM  

Wingchild: I find this discussion ephemeral, its proponents a bore, and the end-result generally underwhelming. The role of language it to provide a framework for communication under which we can all agree that certain sounds represent certain concepts. People like to fark with it in the hopes that changing the framework will change reality around to a new configuration. (This doesn't happen, historically, but people like to dream.)

If the argument is that pronouns are just labels, and humans label things however they want, so you can use whatever pronoun you want to refer to yourself, whether it's he or her or ou or zee or shim or anything -- cool. I'm totally fine with it. Enjoy yourself. But recognize you're working at destroying the framework of the language we use to refer to one another and that this will make future communication quite complicated. Perhaps complex communication is what you're after. That's also cool, but if you're that hung up on pronouns I suspect that you're a boring coont and not someone worth talking to in the first place.

Don't get upset at me thinking you're a boring coont. It's just a label. Humans label things however they want. That's my label for people hung up on their pronouns. Boring coonts, be they boy-coonts or girl-coonts or ou-coonts or zee-coonts or gender-fluid-coonts.

That's my solution. You needed a custom non-cis-gender-confirming pronoun to properly express yourself? You're lumped into the 'coont' category. A coontegory, if you will. I can make new labels, too. I certainly mean no offense and trust you'll respect my unique perspective on this. After all, we're all human, at least 'til you find new words to describe that state of being, too.

/I once saw someone write that they were cool with anyone, even a omnisexual gender-queer species-fluid trans-bovine, as long as this individual shows up for work on time.
//They moo no offense, of course.


Agreed, tell them if they don't like the pronouns then they don't get to use them.  They can no longer call themselves "I" , instead they are sentenced to referring themselves in the third person for the rest of their lives.  It's easier to spot them that way.  When they are in groups, they must come up with a formal name for their group.
 
2013-07-17 10:32:51 AM  
Rapmaster2000: "I'm pretty certain we will invent new neutral and non-neutral pronouns whether we like it or not. Language evolves."

Of course it will evolve.
If it didn't evolve, there'd be no point in talking about any possible change in pronoun use.

But mutations 'take' or don't, based not only on emotional response from the community, but also on lingual fitness: does this communicate the idea effectively, or not?

And formal language is a subset of language based on what groups of communities can agree upon. So even though "language evolves", there's value in discussing fitness characteristics of given mutations, particularly as relates to what might get adopted into formal usage.
 
2013-07-17 10:34:07 AM  

Theaetetus: Traits and signs of narcissism:
An obvious self-focus in interpersonal relationships
Difficulty with empathy
Hypersensitivity
Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people

... I think what we're really talking about is projection.


Seriously, go back and read my little CSB time about my experience with my former church's social justice committee. Then come back and tell me that the year was well spent by everyone involved and that 52 hour and a half discussions with not a single person fed, clothed, or sheltered was a good thing. Then tell me again that I'm the narcissist for viewing people complaining about what pronoun they are addressed with as trivial and narcissistic.
 
2013-07-17 10:34:25 AM  
I'm trying to think of a situation in which I would direct a personal gender pronoun at the person to whom it refers.

"Hey, bro, did you get a look at her?"
"I'm not a 'her,' I'm a 'zer'."
"Who the fark was talking to you?"
 
2013-07-17 10:34:57 AM  

halB: I spent three years trying to get people to say "shway" instead of "cool."

Never took off.  Just like Batman Beyond.

So good luck!


Stop trying to make "fetch" happen.
 
2013-07-17 10:35:48 AM  

Fromageball: The Muthaship: That reminds me of the lady I went to law school with who dressed her son in girls clothes half the time. She took offense when I told her that was the recipe for making a serial killer.

/he'd be about 23 now
//I hope he started with her

Did the kid want to dress in girl clothes or did the mom just decide to do it?
b/c if the kid wanted it, fine. If the kid didn't want it...wtf?!

Sometimes I feel sorry for men with their restrictive dress choices...especially now in the summer when I can get away with wearing pretty much whatever I want(especially since a lot of workplaces are changing their dress codes...it's like as a woman I can wear whatever the hell I want -within reason) but the men are still stuck in their button-downs and trousers.


I'm an office worker. I wear jeans and t-shirt every day. Don't get the while dress pants thing.
 
2013-07-17 10:36:28 AM  

lack of warmth: Agreed, tell them if they don't like the pronouns then they don't get to use them.  They can no longer call themselves "I" , instead they are sentenced to referring themselves in the third person for the rest of their lives.  It's easier to spot them that way.


images2.wikia.nocookie.net

A man agrees.
 
2013-07-17 10:36:59 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: thurstonxhowell: Oh no. Young people are exploring new ways of thinking! They must be stopped!

More like "young people are exploring largely pointless and unproductive ways of thinking rather than making any effort to address actual issues of human suffering".


Stigma associated with gender identity issues is a form of human suffering.
 
2013-07-17 10:37:44 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: Traits and signs of narcissism:
An obvious self-focus in interpersonal relationships
Difficulty with empathy
Hypersensitivity
Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people

... I think what we're really talking about is projection.

Seriously, go back and read my little CSB time about my experience with my former church's social justice committee. Then come back and tell me that the year was well spent by everyone involved and that 52 hour and a half discussions with not a single person fed, clothed, or sheltered was a good thing. Then tell me again that I'm the narcissist for viewing people complaining about what pronoun they are addressed with as trivial and narcissistic.


I don't want to upset you, so feel free to pretend that I've done exactly that.
 
2013-07-17 10:38:34 AM  

thurstonxhowell: liam76: The article is abotu shifting pronoun "thing". they may very well face problems because of how they lok/dress etc, but that is all outside of the shifting pronoun thing. You know the popint of the article. If you are making up pronouns, and changing what you want to be called daily, yes you are doing it to yourself, and yes the "marginilization" that coems fromt hat is all your own doing.

Oh no. Young people are exploring new ways of thinking! They must be stopped!


Annoying other people by special and changing requests for how to be adressed is in no way new.

And I never said they must be stopped, I simply pointed out that their behavoir causes thier problems.

But thanks for playing.


here to help: We know, liam. We know


You are a pathetic little girlzee.

FTFM, don't want to get you upset.

Carry on crying abotu the marginilization of the poor peopel who are surrounded by the evil opressors who don;t begin every daily interaction by inquiring what the gender pronoun of the day is.
 
2013-07-17 10:38:48 AM  

SonOfSpam: If you're no particular gender then you won't mind if I kick you in the balls, will you?


You are conflating gender with sex. Also misandrist transphobia.
 
2013-07-17 10:38:49 AM  

UNC_Samurai: bighairyguy: If that happened to me at Olive Garden, I'd say: "Your gender pronoun is I didn't come here for a lecture, keeping your farking breadsticks, I'm going next door to Red Lobster. "

You takin' her to Red Lobster with the cheddar biscuits? The fam ain't eatin' cheddar biscuits, but this random broad is eatin' cheddar biscuits?


I'm just sayin' why can't I give her cash and biatch can go get some damn groceries.

/just what I need at work, Boondock quotes.
 
2013-07-17 10:38:58 AM  

sethen320: Fromageball: The Muthaship: That reminds me of the lady I went to law school with who dressed her son in girls clothes half the time. She took offense when I told her that was the recipe for making a serial killer.

/he'd be about 23 now
//I hope he started with her

Did the kid want to dress in girl clothes or did the mom just decide to do it?
b/c if the kid wanted it, fine. If the kid didn't want it...wtf?!

Sometimes I feel sorry for men with their restrictive dress choices...especially now in the summer when I can get away with wearing pretty much whatever I want(especially since a lot of workplaces are changing their dress codes...it's like as a woman I can wear whatever the hell I want -within reason) but the men are still stuck in their button-downs and trousers.

I'm an office worker. I wear jeans and t-shirt every day. Don't get the while dress pants thing.


You are the exception, not the rule.  Business casual is the minimal standard in most office environments, and "no jeans/sneakers/tshirts" is the first rule of biz casual.
 
2013-07-17 10:39:36 AM  
We encountered high school students who said, I want you to call me Tractor and use pronouns like zee, zim and zer.

You may want that, doesn't mean it's going to happen. You can't just invent your own language, precious.
 
2013-07-17 10:41:21 AM  

Badgerlad: You may want that, doesn't mean it's going to happen. You can't just invent your own language, precious


Careful, now you will be labeled an intolerant bigot, and ridiculed for not supporting "a new way of thinking".
 
2013-07-17 10:42:19 AM  

mrshowrules: Monkeyhouse Zendo: thurstonxhowell: Oh no. Young people are exploring new ways of thinking! They must be stopped!

More like "young people are exploring largely pointless and unproductive ways of thinking rather than making any effort to address actual issues of human suffering".

Stigma associated with gender identity issues is a form of human suffering.


At the bottom of the goddamned priority list though, far lower than slavery, poverty, war, education, disease, etc etc.
 
2013-07-17 10:42:34 AM  

alice_600: Akbar the Trappiste Monk: here to help: And I think people are missing the point. This is more than likely being done to shove the issue to the front of the conversation. A friend of mine has been going through a REAL hard time with this exact scenario. I call her she because that's how I met her. Born a female but very androgynous and before anyone starts saying "lesbo AW! Whargharble!!1" there are severe chemical and physical differences with her. For example she could grow a beard as a teen. Imagine how f*cking terrible and confusing that would have been. She held all that gender crap in and just played the part of girl/tomboy. Dated guys and chicks but mostly just wasn't interested in sex. She hid it from most of her friends even though we are all supposedly open minded and ultra progressive people. Well a few years back she was completely breaking down because of the stress of this and started talking to doctors (who confirmed the physical gender problems) and her friends. Well apparently a lot of people were complete assholes to her about it. It was shocking considering the community. Very pro equal rights across the board but for some reason just the thought of a trans gender made them all wonky. Very disappointing. I guess I am one of the few she's been able to talk to about it and I find that heartbreaking.

So no. It's not easy for these people and this is obviously a way for them let people know who and what they are and make people talk about it instead of just squirming in their seats or waiting until they leave to talk behind their backs.

Put yourselves in their shoes. How would you feel?

I would feel FABULOUS!

I would also get work blood work and check to see if I had any hormone imbalances that needed to be addressed. Asexuality isn't real to many because well that's what we're programmed to do in our DNA is to procreate. Many claim to be A sexual but it's more a cover for our own fears of having sex for the first time since western civilization p ...


I always thought that some asexuals are simply reacting to our hypersexualized culture.

Just because you aren't interested in banging every guy you come across doesn't make you asexual.
 
2013-07-17 10:43:29 AM  

mrshowrules: Stigma associated with gender identity issues is a form of human suffering.


Is it like hunger or exposure? Can you die from it? I'm pretty sure that after a week and a half without a proper meal they'd be happy to be called anything if they could get something to eat.

Yes, social discomfort is a form of suffering but it's a relatively minor one. Note that I'm not talking about gay or tranny bashing, those are significant issues. And if you're going to claim that gender neutral pronouns will address tranny bashing be sure to show your work.
 
2013-07-17 10:44:33 AM  

Theaetetus: I don't want to upset you, so feel free to pretend that I've done exactly that.


Wow, it's almost as if you're invalidating my experience in an attempt to silence me.
 
2013-07-17 10:46:07 AM  
Should also apply to race. I always wanted to be an Eskimo for a day.
 
2013-07-17 10:47:51 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: I don't want to upset you, so feel free to pretend that I've done exactly that.

Wow, it's almost as if you're invalidating my experience in an attempt to silence me.


For someone constantly complaining about narcissism, you sure do focus a lot on what's allegedly happening to you.
 
2013-07-17 10:48:16 AM  

ringersol: Rapmaster2000: "I'm pretty certain we will invent new neutral and non-neutral pronouns whether we like it or not. Language evolves."

Of course it will evolve.
If it didn't evolve, there'd be no point in talking about any possible change in pronoun use.

But mutations 'take' or don't, based not only on emotional response from the community, but also on lingual fitness: does this communicate the idea effectively, or not?

And formal language is a subset of language based on what groups of communities can agree upon. So even though "language evolves", there's value in discussing fitness characteristics of given mutations, particularly as relates to what might get adopted into formal usage.


Totes, bro.  I'm like whatevs about the whole shebang.
 
2013-07-17 10:48:44 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Note that I'm not talking about gay or tranny bashing, those are significant issues. And if you're going to claim that gender neutral pronouns will address tranny bashing be sure to show your work.


As an initial point, it may reduce the number of people using the derogatory term "tranny".
 
2013-07-17 10:49:08 AM  

liam76: Carry on crying abotu the marginilization of the poor peopel who are surrounded by the evil opressors who don;t begin every daily interaction by inquiring what the gender pronoun of the day is.


lol... look how agry you are. Just look!

Personally I do think it's a little silly but if that's how they want to live their lives what the hell does it matter to you? It is very unlikely you'll ever encounter this and if you do you can just choose not to participate or simply walk away.

Simplz.
 
2013-07-17 10:50:01 AM  

Theaetetus: Seriously, go back and read my little CSB time about my experience with my former church's social justice committee. Then come back and tell me that the year was well spent by everyone involved and that 52 hour and a half discussions with not a single person fed, clothed, or sheltered was a good thing. Then tell me again that I'm the narcissist for viewing people complaining about what pronoun they are addressed with as trivial and narcissistic.

I don't want to upset you, so feel free to pretend that I've done exactly that.


You know what... fark it.

Seriously, go back and read one's little CSB time about ones's experience with one's former church's social justice committee. Then come back and tell this one that the year was well spent by everyone involved and that 52 hour and a half discussions with not a single person fed, clothed, or sheltered was a good thing. Then tell this one again that it is the narcissist for viewing people complaining about what pronoun they are addressed with as trivial and narcissistic.

A year of discussing an event to raise awareness for LGBT issues with no event ever held and no other good done for the community. All other discussions tabled until the awareness event was finalized. This is, apparently, a good thing.
 
2013-07-17 10:51:21 AM  
You reserve the right to be offended...I reserve the right to not care. Im all in favor of gender equality but we take it too far sometimes. You can't eliminate the word "man" from everywhere it appears and expect things to improve and anyone who explains their "prononun prefrence" as part of introducing themselves is as self involved as A Pimp Named Slickback...please say the whole thing, yes every time.
 
2013-07-17 10:51:29 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: be sure to show your work


It would take a book just to deconstruct the terminology. Giving bigots a model for social communication with non-binary gender presenting individuals would help reduce violence.
 
2013-07-17 10:51:34 AM  

Theaetetus: For someone constantly complaining about narcissism, you sure do focus a lot on what's allegedly happening to you.


Yep, its narcissism for him to talk about what he believes is a story relevant to this issue that involves his personal experiences.  Way to go through all the times he said, "me," when talking about or discussing something that happened to him and highlight them all to make yourself look like a douche, then pat yourself on the back for it.
 
2013-07-17 10:52:23 AM  

Theaetetus: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Seriously, go back and read my little CSB time about my experience with my former church's social justice committee. Then come back and tell me that the year was well spent by everyone involved and that 52 hour and a half discussions with not a single person fed, clothed, or sheltered was a good thing. Then tell me again that I'm the narcissist for viewing people complaining about what pronoun they are addressed with as trivial and narcissistic.

I don't want to upset you, so feel free to pretend that I've done exactly that.


2/16 is much more frequent than 5/66...


By your little "narcississt" metric (use of me or I), you do realize you are a greater offender, right?
 
2013-07-17 10:52:49 AM  

ox45tallboy: DrPainMD: I couldn't agree more, but, since the internet never forgets and I see the direction the forces of political correctness are going, I'm going to have to say, "Stop being such a close-minded, intolerant bigot."

There. Now, in twenty years, I will be hailed as a progressive thinker who was ahead of his time, and you will be lumped in with Limbaugh, Beck, Gingrich and Stalin. Won't that be fun?

Actually, in his younger days, before the Teddy Roosevelt 'stache, Stalin... well, you be the judge.


Hmmm....
 
2013-07-17 10:53:22 AM  

Theaetetus: As an initial point, it may reduce the number of people using the derogatory term "tranny".


Funny, the transgender F2M that married my wife and I and her M2F bridesmaid don't seem to have a problem with the term.

But please, what is the socially acceptable term for "people beating the shiat out of transgender people for being transgender"? I certainly don't want to offend anyone's sensibilities when discussing "people beating the shiat out of transgender people for being transgender".
 
2013-07-17 10:53:59 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: Seriously, go back and read my little CSB time about my experience with my former church's social justice committee. Then come back and tell me that the year was well spent by everyone involved and that 52 hour and a half discussions with not a single person fed, clothed, or sheltered was a good thing. Then tell me again that I'm the narcissist for viewing people complaining about what pronoun they are addressed with as trivial and narcissistic.

I don't want to upset you, so feel free to pretend that I've done exactly that.

You know what... fark it.

Seriously, go back and read one's little CSB time about ones's experience with one's former church's social justice committee. Then come back and tell this one that the year was well spent by everyone involved and that 52 hour and a half discussions with not a single person fed, clothed, or sheltered was a good thing. Then tell this one again that it is the narcissist for viewing people complaining about what pronoun they are addressed with as trivial and narcissistic.

A year of discussing an event to raise awareness for LGBT issues with no event ever held and no other good done for the community. All other discussions tabled until the awareness event was finalized. This is, apparently, a good thing.


How many people have the NRA fed, clothed, and sheltered? Why doesn't Oxfam address the racial disparities in drug possession sentences? How come the Salvation Army hasn't taken any steps to address cyberbullying? Perhaps organizations need not all focus on the exact same issues?
 
2013-07-17 10:54:40 AM  

Lexx: mrshowrules: Monkeyhouse Zendo: thurstonxhowell: Oh no. Young people are exploring new ways of thinking! They must be stopped!

More like "young people are exploring largely pointless and unproductive ways of thinking rather than making any effort to address actual issues of human suffering".

Stigma associated with gender identity issues is a form of human suffering.

At the bottom of the goddamned priority list though, far lower than slavery, poverty, war, education, disease, etc etc.


For the person suffering it, it may be at the top of their list.  I never heard the rule that bigger problems had to be solved before smaller problems could be looked at.

I'm sure ending slavery was not considered a priority at the time either.
 
2013-07-17 10:54:40 AM  

Theaetetus: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: I don't want to upset you, so feel free to pretend that I've done exactly that.

Wow, it's almost as if you're invalidating my experience in an attempt to silence me.

For someone constantly complaining about narcissism, you sure do focus a lot on what's allegedly happening to you.


Just attempting to communicate my experience. Why do you insist on derailing and marginalizing that experience?
 
2013-07-17 10:55:04 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: CowardlyLion: Thanks for totally clearing that up with your brilliant explanation.

I would have thought it was self explanatory which is why I didn't write you a farking dissertation but apparently you're a little slow.

The referenced statement "...a new generation of young people is..." implies that insistence on personal pronouns is a fad among younger people. This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population. The implication is that since "young people" are obsessed with these trivialities, they are an example of successive generations getting dumber which was the core premise of Idiocracy.

Thank you for helping to demonstrate that Idiocracy was, if not a documentary, prophecy.


hey gaiz whats this thred?
 
2013-07-17 10:55:55 AM  
Be whatever you like.  But if you give me a list of things to call you, i'm going to ignore those and just call you Asshole.
 
2013-07-17 10:56:38 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: As an initial point, it may reduce the number of people using the derogatory term "tranny".

Funny, the transgender F2M that married my wife and I and her M2F bridesmaid don't seem to have a problem with the term.

But please, what is the socially acceptable term for "people beating the shiat out of transgender people for being transgender"? I certainly don't want to offend anyone's sensibilities when discussing "people beating the shiat out of transgender people for being transgender".


Is there something wrong with "criminals", "perpetrators of a hate crime", or even "domestic terrorists"?
 
2013-07-17 10:57:02 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: But please, what is the socially acceptable term for "people beating the shiat out of transgender people for being transgender"? I certainly don't want to offend anyone's sensibilities when discussing "people beating the shiat out of transgender people for being transgender".


You don't get to talk about that cause you're cis.  You are to be told your position by the minority in question, recognize that you cannot possibly add anything to the conversation because you are not, "X group that faces oppression," and then nod your head and say something vaguely affirmative.
 
2013-07-17 10:57:04 AM  

Theaetetus: How many people have the NRA fed, clothed, and sheltered? Why doesn't Oxfam address the racial disparities in drug possession sentences? How come the Salvation Army hasn't taken any steps to address cyberbullying? Perhaps organizations need not all focus on the exact same issues?


So you're saying a church social justice committee should not be interested in feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, and sheltering the abused? I have to say, that's a decidedly odd stance to take.

What precisely do you think social justice is?
 
2013-07-17 10:57:39 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: I don't want to upset you, so feel free to pretend that I've done exactly that.

Wow, it's almost as if you're invalidating my experience in an attempt to silence me.

For someone constantly complaining about narcissism, you sure do focus a lot on what's allegedly happening to you.

Just attempting to communicate my experience. Why do you insist on derailing and marginalizing that experience?


At no time have I done that. What I have done is point out that your constant calls of "narcissism" may be unintentional projection of your own psychological disorder. Frankly, I feel nothing but sympathy for you, friend.
 
2013-07-17 10:58:19 AM  

here to help: lol... look how agry you are. Just look!


Angry?

I didn't take the time to type soemthing out and attemt to attribute it to somebody else.


here to help: Personally I do think it's a little silly


Really, because a few posts ago you were saying how marginilized these people who make up gender pronouns are, now they are silly?

Do you often think the issues of marganliized people are silly?  Or maybe you want to admit I was right?


here to help: what the hell does it matter to you?


Very little.  If some coont asked me to use a made up pronoun for them I would have nothing to do with them, or at the very least not play their little game.

Now maybe the earlier response above clued you in, but my problem isn't so much what these dipshiats are doing, I don't give a fark.  My problem is peopel like you claiming they are marginilized and putting on the same level as TG.  Which does a make a joke of their struggle.
 
2013-07-17 10:58:34 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: How many people have the NRA fed, clothed, and sheltered? Why doesn't Oxfam address the racial disparities in drug possession sentences? How come the Salvation Army hasn't taken any steps to address cyberbullying? Perhaps organizations need not all focus on the exact same issues?

So you're saying a church social justice committee should not be interested in feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, and sheltering the abused? I have to say, that's a decidedly odd stance to take.


If I was saying that, you'd be able to quote me saying that. Since you are unable to, I wonder where you're getting this odd idea. Do you frequently hear voices that aren't there?
 
2013-07-17 10:58:44 AM  
old people: the future is scary.

fark thread complete.
 
2013-07-17 10:59:05 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: What precisely do you think social justice is?


Being intentionally obtuse with people you've never met because you're an asshole, apparently.

/Has never seen someone more socially just that Theaetus when those words are used in that context
 
2013-07-17 10:59:25 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: mrshowrules: Stigma associated with gender identity issues is a form of human suffering.

Is it like hunger or exposure? Can you die from it? I'm pretty sure that after a week and a half without a proper meal they'd be happy to be called anything if they could get something to eat.

Yes, social discomfort is a form of suffering but it's a relatively minor one. Note that I'm not talking about gay or tranny bashing, those are significant issues. And if you're going to claim that gender neutral pronouns will address tranny bashing be sure to show your work.


It isn't minor for the person suffering it.  Word/language can have a societal impact.  Think of the term "boy" for instance.   That one is loaded.
 
2013-07-17 11:00:34 AM  

theflatline: I am open minded, friend of hetero,homo, confused, intersexed, and whatever gender assignment you are calling yourself.

As long as I do not have to hear about it all the damn time I could care less


This is what the whole LGBTASOetc. controversy comes down to for me. If I'm not trying to have sex with you, why on earth would it matter to me what your sexual interests are?
 
2013-07-17 11:01:16 AM  

mrshowrules: Lexx: mrshowrules: Monkeyhouse Zendo: thurstonxhowell: Oh no. Young people are exploring new ways of thinking! They must be stopped!

More like "young people are exploring largely pointless and unproductive ways of thinking rather than making any effort to address actual issues of human suffering".

Stigma associated with gender identity issues is a form of human suffering.

At the bottom of the goddamned priority list though, far lower than slavery, poverty, war, education, disease, etc etc.

For the person suffering it, it may be at the top of their list.  I never heard the rule that bigger problems had to be solved before smaller problems could be looked at.

I'm sure ending slavery was not considered a priority at the time either.


Bigger problems don't have to be solved before smaller ones are looked at.  But "pick your battles" is always good advice.
 
2013-07-17 11:01:29 AM  

xcv: [media.tumblr.com image 467x644]


The funniest part of that is that they list "homosexual" twice...

/They like homosexuals...
 
2013-07-17 11:01:32 AM  

Theaetetus: Is there something wrong with "criminals", "perpetrators of a hate crime", or even "domestic terrorists"?


Domestic terrorists? Okay, never mind, I'm just going to let it go.

If you want to erase all distinctions between various forms of crime and refer to them all as "crime" without specifying what act is criminal then be my guest. I tend to like language which is specific and direct which is why I use "tranny bashing" rather than "crime" or even "assault". It carries with it an immediacy and weight which is washed out by more generic terms.
 
2013-07-17 11:01:58 AM  

MrBallou: theflatline: I am open minded, friend of hetero,homo, confused, intersexed, and whatever gender assignment you are calling yourself.

As long as I do not have to hear about it all the damn time I could care less

This is what the whole LGBTASOetc. controversy comes down to for me. If I'm not trying to have sex with you, why on earth would it matter to me what your sexual interests are?


Gender identity is not the same as sexual preference.
 
2013-07-17 11:02:18 AM  

FatPrincess: Monkeyhouse Zendo: be sure to show your work

It would take a book just to deconstruct the terminology. Giving bigots a model for social communication with non-binary gender presenting individuals would help reduce violence.


Or we could just ask who doesn't want to get kicked in the balls, and call them "dudes".

/I ain't conflating anything, I don't even have a pump.
 
2013-07-17 11:02:22 AM  

optimus_grime: old people: the future is scary.

fark thread complete.


Young people.

We already sat through this movie.

Wait til you notice that you have, too.

Ha ha.
 
2013-07-17 11:03:55 AM  

IAAl: I am sure that the Fark comments on an article about the gender spectrum is about the last useful place to post this but hey, why not?

Gender is not binary.

Not all people are simply Male or Female.

Regardless of how you define Male or Female, there are people who are both or neither.

If you want to go with the simplistic "is the 23rd set of chromosomes XX or XY?"  You will find that there are people with more than just two, see Aneuploidy.

If you decide to go with sex organs, there are people with both and people with neither.

Needless to say, if you go with characteristics or other physiology you see a wide range of characteristics among people that cross gender norms.

It is simple to categorize gender as binary but gender is no more binary than race or sexual orientation.  Just because you identify strongly with one gender, and perhaps even look the part, does not mean that everyone does or that everyone identifies with either gender.


Sexual orientation isn't binary either. This is the same "up in arms" that people got over bisexuals, or people who might be hetero one day and homo the next. Nothing, it appears, about human beings is binary, not even the simple male/female question. So, we get to see people post on fark and everywhere else about how "they wish these people would stop making such a public deal of it" as they continue on about their day not counting the number of times they make a big deal about their gender or sexuality. And we'll eventually hear from the 'compassionate conservative minority' about how the actions of people they've never met are threatening their marriage, children, or something else. Even though, if they looked, they'd find someone gender queer in their own family.

And to the trans folks, I don't think you need to give up being at one side of the spectrum or the other just because some people choose the middle. Just like I wouldn't tell someone strictly straight or gay that they need to be bi just because Kinsey did this study a few years ago. If you are comfortable at that point on the spectrum, then embrace it. Me? I'll keep flipping a coin each morning, or using some Brownian motion to determine my place on the spectrum.
 
2013-07-17 11:04:06 AM  

liam76: here to help: lol... look how agry you are. Just look!

Angry?

I didn't take the time to type soemthing out and attemt to attribute it to somebody else.


here to help: Personally I do think it's a little silly

Really, because a few posts ago you were saying how marginilized these people who make up gender pronouns are, now they are silly?

Do you often think the issues of marganliized people are silly?  Or maybe you want to admit I was right?


here to help: what the hell does it matter to you?

Very little.  If some coont asked me to use a made up pronoun for them I would have nothing to do with them, or at the very least not play their little game.

Now maybe the earlier response above clued you in, but my problem isn't so much what these dipshiats are doing, I don't give a fark.  My problem is peopel like you claiming they are marginilized and putting on the same level as TG.  Which does a make a joke of their struggle.


You are confused as to what I was talking about earlier or you are being intentional obtuse (which seems to be a recurring theme with you). I was saying the transgender community are marginalized. This is something some members of that community are doing to eke out an identity in society and/or draw attention to an issue far to many either ignore or are openly hostile towards. This thread is a perfect example of that.

And for someone who doesn't care you sure are getting all het up 'bout it.
 
2013-07-17 11:04:26 AM  

FatherDale: I have an idea: how about you live in your own little world where you call yourself whatever you want and leave everyone else the hell alone?


They are.  It's called Oberlin.  And, the fact that someone from NPR is hanging out there tells you everything you need to know about NPR.
 
2013-07-17 11:04:34 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: Is there something wrong with "criminals", "perpetrators of a hate crime", or even "domestic terrorists"?

Domestic terrorists? Okay, never mind, I'm just going to let it go.

If you want to erase all distinctions between various forms of crime and refer to them all as "crime" without specifying what act is criminal then be my guest. I tend to like language which is specific and direct which is why I use "tranny bashing" rather than "crime" or even "assault". It carries with it an immediacy and weight which is washed out by more generic terms.


It's odd how you managed to read "criminals" and "domestic terrorists" and yet completely missed five of the seven words between them.
 
2013-07-17 11:04:42 AM  
The people that support this I call heir gender potato.
 
2013-07-17 11:05:28 AM  

I drunk what: hey gaiz whats this thred?


Hey, it's IDW! I didn't think you visited anymore? Missed us?
 
2013-07-17 11:05:40 AM  

Theaetetus: MrBallou: theflatline: I am open minded, friend of hetero,homo, confused, intersexed, and whatever gender assignment you are calling yourself.

As long as I do not have to hear about it all the damn time I could care less

This is what the whole LGBTASOetc. controversy comes down to for me. If I'm not trying to have sex with you, why on earth would it matter to me what your sexual interests are?

Gender identity is not the same as sexual preference.


I thought we were not suppose to care about gender identity.

I hate this brave new world.
 
2013-07-17 11:07:04 AM  

psychosis_inducing: Y'know, since it's in colloquial use anyway, I don't get why the generic plural hasn't been deemed by whoever is in charge as acceptable. Gender may be a wide spectrum, but we don't need as many pronouns as there are subgenres of techno.


"y'all" for singular, and "all y'all" for plural.
 
2013-07-17 11:07:38 AM  

here to help: liam76: here to help: lol... look how agry you are. Just look!

Angry?

I didn't take the time to type soemthing out and attemt to attribute it to somebody else.


here to help: Personally I do think it's a little silly

Really, because a few posts ago you were saying how marginilized these people who make up gender pronouns are, now they are silly?

Do you often think the issues of marganliized people are silly?  Or maybe you want to admit I was right?


here to help: what the hell does it matter to you?

Very little.  If some coont asked me to use a made up pronoun for them I would have nothing to do with them, or at the very least not play their little game.

Now maybe the earlier response above clued you in, but my problem isn't so much what these dipshiats are doing, I don't give a fark.  My problem is peopel like you claiming they are marginilized and putting on the same level as TG.  Which does a make a joke of their struggle.

You are confused as to what I was talking about earlier or you are being intentional obtuse (which seems to be a recurring theme with you). I was saying the transgender community are marginalized. This is something some members of that community are doing to eke out an identity in society and/or draw attention to an issue far to many either ignore or are openly hostile towards. This thread is a perfect example of that.

And for someone who doesn't care you sure are getting all het up 'bout it.


Dear pedants.

Internet wind up artist has a beard to it's balls.

Methuselah thinks it's clapped out.

Seriously.  Get a room.

thefightingwannstaches.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-07-17 11:08:52 AM  

proteus_b: yourmomlovestetris: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

based only on that tale, one would likely conclude that there is no such thing as transgenderism...


Or that gender is so hard wired into the brain that even advanced (at the time) behavioral therapy can't change it. The brain sees the body it's in as it wants to see it, and gender is one of those expressions

But yeah, you go ahead and see it the way you want to see it. I'm sure that makes much more sense in your little world view, where things need to be neat and tidy.
 
2013-07-17 11:11:03 AM  

mrshowrules: It isn't minor for the person suffering it.


It depends. If the person being referred to by a gender pronoun that they don't prefer hasn't eaten for a week, is being beaten, or is cold due to inadequate shelter and clothing which do you think would be the issue they would most likely wish to see addressed?

It is an issue for people who have all their creature comforts met and are more concerned about their social comforts than others who experience what we commonly consider suffering.
 
2013-07-17 11:11:20 AM  

bunner: Dear pedants.

Internet wind up artist has a beard to it's balls.

Methuselah thinks it's clapped out.

Seriously. Get a room.


I'm currently waiting on something so I have nothing better to do until then.
 
2013-07-17 11:11:44 AM  

xcv: [media.tumblr.com image 467x644]


homosexual is listed twice.
 
2013-07-17 11:12:28 AM  

ykarie: in your little world view, where things need to be neat and tidy.


Not to make too fine a point of it but the entire human race, and I mean all alleged 347456 genders of it, has been beating it's f*cking brains out in the pursuit of neat and tidy since we could stand erect.  Hardly an imprecation, no matter how much inference you heap on it
 
2013-07-17 11:13:34 AM  

here to help: I'm currently waiting on something so I have nothing better to do until then.


You could try coming up with a different handle.   =  )
 
2013-07-17 11:14:52 AM  

bunner: You could try coming up with a different handle. = )


But I AM helping.

;-)
 
2013-07-17 11:15:09 AM  

FatPrincess: It would take a book just to deconstruct the terminology. Giving bigots a model for social communication with non-binary gender presenting individuals would help reduce violence.


What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. - CH

I can provide a layman level description of quantum mechanics or general relativity which is accessibly by the average Joe on the street. Why should I let you hand wave your assertion away as "it's complicated"?
 
2013-07-17 11:15:48 AM  
Are there any advocacy groups trying to raise money to cure the brain defect that mixes up a person's personality and physical gender characteristics?  Because that would make a lot more sense than gender reassignment surgeries and social engineering.
 
2013-07-17 11:15:52 AM  

here to help: bunner: You could try coming up with a different handle. = )

But I AM helping.

;-)


No.  Not really.  Feel free to continue to vastly amuse yourself.   :  )  *click*
 
2013-07-17 11:17:53 AM  

ykarie: Me? I'll keep flipping a coin each morning, or using some Brownian motion to determine my place on the spectrum.


You need help, im pretty sure obama care covers this
 
2013-07-17 11:18:01 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: mrshowrules: It isn't minor for the person suffering it.

It depends. If the person being referred to by a gender pronoun that they don't prefer hasn't eaten for a week, is being beaten, or is cold due to inadequate shelter and clothing which do you think would be the issue they would most likely wish to see addressed?

It is an issue for people who have all their creature comforts met and are more concerned about their social comforts than others who experience what we commonly consider suffering.


I think something that can lead to depression and even suicide to be suffering.

suffering  present participle of suf·fer(Verb)VerbExperience or be subjected to (something bad or unpleasant).Be affected by or subject to (an illness or ailment).
Perhaps you don't realize how significant an issue gender identity is because you are secure in your identity.  Empathy is ability to understand other people's suffering even if you do not have direct experience with it.
 
2013-07-17 11:18:12 AM  

ox45tallboy: Can anyone translate these?

[nyulocal.com image 750x350]

I get: Chick, Dude, Larry Craig In A Skirt, Guy With A Boner, Rockette, Disabled Person, and Disabled Person Being Arrested.


+1 & reason #2408437438489284 why i love it here
 
2013-07-17 11:18:59 AM  

Theaetetus: MrBallou: theflatline: I am open minded, friend of hetero,homo, confused, intersexed, and whatever gender assignment you are calling yourself.

As long as I do not have to hear about it all the damn time I could care less

This is what the whole LGBTASOetc. controversy comes down to for me. If I'm not trying to have sex with you, why on earth would it matter to me what your sexual interests are?

Gender identity is not the same as sexual preference.


Duh. That's why I said "interests". To include what gender you think of yourself as or wish you were and so on.

To try to restate my thesis: if the interaction between us is not gender-related, then your gender-state is none of my business.
 
2013-07-17 11:19:17 AM  

GoldSpider: Are there any advocacy groups trying to raise money to cure the brain defect that mixes up a person's personality and physical gender characteristics?  Because that would make a lot more sense than gender reassignment surgeries and social engineering.


THIS
 
2013-07-17 11:19:56 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: CowardlyLion: Thanks for totally clearing that up with your brilliant explanation.

The referenced statement "...a new generation of young people is..." implies that insistence on personal pronouns is a fad among younger people. This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population. The implication is that since "young people" are obsessed with these trivialities, they are an example of successive generations getting dumber which was the core premise of Idiocracy.


...so where exactly is there any information about what young people want or think in that quote?

English is generally lacking in useful gender-neutral pronouns. This is not a new thing or a sudden fad, much less an indication of people somehow being stupid (it's kind of the exact opposite--people are aware of things that they don't readily have words for and want to make words to describe them rather than fumbling with imprecise language). People have tried to make up for that shortcoming for centuries. If someone manages to make broadly-accepted, new, gender-neutral pronouns, that would be wonderful.
 
2013-07-17 11:20:06 AM  

Theaetetus: It's odd how you managed to read "criminals" and "domestic terrorists" and yet completely missed five of the seven words between them.


I imagine you think you've cleverly cornered me. "perpetrators of hate crime" is just as vague. "Hate crime" is actually a modifier to existing crime asserting motivation. Hate itself is not a crime but we adjust the severity of punishment for some crimes based on them being motivated by hate.

Just because I don't address all of your foolishness doesn't mean that I don't notice it.
 
2013-07-17 11:20:53 AM  

Pangea: psychosis_inducing: Y'know, since it's in colloquial use anyway, I don't get why the generic plural hasn't been deemed by whoever is in charge as acceptable. Gender may be a wide spectrum, but we don't need as many pronouns as there are subgenres of techno.

"y'all" for singular, and "all y'all" for plural.


Except in parts of Baltimore, PA and the south were it is "y'alls".  You are obviously exclusionary to this oppressed minority.
 
2013-07-17 11:21:56 AM  
This sounds like the gender-equivalent of White People Problems to me.
 
2013-07-17 11:23:42 AM  

bunner: here to help: bunner: You could try coming up with a different handle. = )

But I AM helping.

;-)

No.  Not really.  Feel free to continue to vastly amuse yourself.   :  )  *click*


Wow. Lighten up.
 
2013-07-17 11:24:50 AM  

CowardlyLion: English is generally lacking in useful gender-neutral pronouns. This is not a new thing or a sudden fad, much less an indication of people somehow being stupid (it's kind of the exact opposite--people are aware of things that they don't readily have words for and want to make words to describe them rather than fumbling with imprecise language). People have tried to make up for that shortcoming for centuries. If someone manages to make broadly-accepted, new, gender-neutral pronouns, that would be wonderful.


As I said before "it" works as does "their". People don't like "it" because historically we've used "it" for objects which the language considers genderless but he and she for people which we view as gendered. If one wants to be viewed as gender neutral, "it" is the proper pronoun.

You want to know English really needs? A you inclusive.
 
2013-07-17 11:25:44 AM  
This will be the next ebonics
 
2013-07-17 11:26:56 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Theaetetus: It's odd how you managed to read "criminals" and "domestic terrorists" and yet completely missed five of the seven words between them.

I imagine you think you've cleverly cornered me. "perpetrators of hate crime" is just as vague. "Hate crime" is actually a modifier to existing crime asserting motivation. Hate itself is not a crime but we adjust the severity of punishment for some crimes based on them being motivated by hate.


Actually, that would be depend on jurisdiction. In many places, there are separate statutes for hate crimes beyond mere sentencing guidelines. But this is perhaps a pedantic point somewhat beyond the scope of this discussion.
No, I "cleverly cornered you" by giving an example of a proper term that you completely ignored so that you could complain that I hadn't given a proper term. Somehow, I apparently predicted that you would cherry pick from my post. This, to you, is apparently an incredibly clever ruse.
 
2013-07-17 11:28:44 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: As I said before "it" works as does "their". People don't like "it" because historically we've used "it" for objects which the language considers genderless but he and she for people which we view as gendered.


Well, that and "it" suggests "non-person".  I can understand why anyone would reject that term.
 
2013-07-17 11:32:23 AM  
I don't need to call you a specific gender when I order. I can call you farking "server" if you start getting all upity about your gender preference. Seriously, I just want to order and eat, not carry on a conversation with you. That's why I brought other people with me.
 
2013-07-17 11:34:25 AM  
i40.tinypic.com
 
2013-07-17 11:35:31 AM  

here to help: And I think people are missing the point. This is more than likely being done to shove the issue to the front of the conversation. A friend of mine has been going through a REAL hard time with this exact scenario. I call her she because that's how I met her. Born a female but very androgynous and before anyone starts saying "lesbo AW! Whargharble!!1" there are severe chemical and physical differences with her. For example she could grow a beard as a teen. Imagine how f*cking terrible and confusing that would have been. She held all that gender crap in and just played the part of girl/tomboy. Dated guys and chicks but mostly just wasn't interested in sex. She hid it from most of her friends even though we are all supposedly open minded and ultra progressive people. Well a few years back she was completely breaking down because of the stress of this and started talking to doctors (who confirmed the physical gender problems) and her friends. Well apparently a lot of people were complete assholes to her about it. It was shocking considering the community. Very pro equal rights across the board but for some reason just the thought of a trans gender made them all wonky. Very disappointing. I guess I am one of the few she's been able to talk to about it and I find that heartbreaking.

So no. It's not easy for these people and this is obviously a way for them let people know who and what they are and make people talk about it instead of just squirming in their seats or waiting until they leave to talk behind their backs.

Put yourselves in their shoes. How would you feel?


Your friend was failed by her parents? I'm pretty sure those issues would have come in at puberty as not normal and s/he should have gone to the fracking doctor to make sure s/he wasn't experiencing something very abnormal, didn't have funky genetics, etc.  Growing a full beard at puberty isn't normal for most women and unless your family has a history of ultra hairy gals then yeah, I think s/he was failed.

But yes, everyone's life struggle is not the problem of others and society should shift for these individuals. I'm perfectly okay with transgendered people and people of most sexual orientations (it's when you start going to 'pan', demi- gray crap that I'm going to start tuning out).
 
2013-07-17 11:35:57 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: FatPrincess: Giving bigots a model for social communication with non-binary gender presenting individuals would help reduce violence.

Why should I let you hand wave your assertion away as "it's complicated"?


Okay, I'm just winging it here so I'll consider all criticism as constructive.

In the formation of community we inquire about his or her relationship to it and to others' participation. Membership in a community requires identification and a common symbol system. Non-conforming individuals who physically reside in the community risk dehumanization, threats, and depersonalization into stereotypical caricatures as bigots try to police the cultural norms. Discussing a scheme of social interactions such as gender neutral pronouns will raise the sociological hierarchy of bigots from behavior and action, such as punching and kicking, to social relation where they instead have a framework for integrating the transsexual as a community member instead of bashing them.
 
2013-07-17 11:39:44 AM  

FatPrincess: Monkeyhouse Zendo: FatPrincess: Giving bigots a model for social communication with non-binary gender presenting individuals would help reduce violence.

Why should I let you hand wave your assertion away as "it's complicated"?

Okay, I'm just winging it here so I'll consider all criticism as constructive.

In the formation of community we inquire about his or her relationship to it and to others' participation. Membership in a community requires identification and a common symbol system. Non-conforming individuals who physically reside in the community risk dehumanization, threats, and depersonalization into stereotypical caricatures as bigots try to police the cultural norms. Discussing a scheme of social interactions such as gender neutral pronouns will raise the sociological hierarchy of bigots from behavior and action, such as punching and kicking, to social relation where they instead have a framework for integrating the transsexual as a community member instead of bashing them.


Well put.

You can simplify it further.  Measures to ensure societal inclusion reduce potential violence towards those seen as excluded.
 
2013-07-17 11:40:26 AM  
Theaetetus:
Gender identity is not the same as sexual preference.

I don't understand is how "gender identity" makes such an impact on an existance.
Feeling that you've been born with the wrong plumbing, I can get that.  How you know what the tubing feels like confuses the shiat out of me, but whatever.
Feeling like you should dress or act in a certain way, I get that.
What is so awful about you being someone that doesn't fit into the standard box?  So you have short hair, pants, and a shirt and people call you "he".  You have long hair and a slight frame and straight male make cat-calls at you (happens to my homophobic brother often).  WTF is so wrong with YOU (using as a generic term, not specifically Theaetetus) that you have to have the world create a new category for you.

I hate the social constructs around this issue.  I'm a male who likes cars, guns, grilling, and beer.  I also cook dinner, do my own laundry, like to decorate and listen to disco.
 
2013-07-17 11:41:20 AM  

theflatline: I think the poster who said previously that the majority of us walking around the planet, especially in the US, are just concerned with being, and are not further trying to segregate ourselves or anyone else by creating classes of gender or any other classes for that matter.

I see a person in front of me, and that is all. Just because I choose not to address every fringe group and learn their way of thinking does not mean I am a racist or a bigot. Nor is it my fault for having been born hetero. I just do not like people lecturing me on how I should react and think......


Very well said.

A person is a person to me.  I treat everyone equally and how I want to be treated...that is right up to the point where they militantly point out how different they are.  Or worse, deride me because my societal norm of addressing human beings doesn't meet with their expectations.  And then the worst part is when I try to correct my "offense" out of courtesy and then get some vitriolic soliloquy because I'm perceived as one of "those people"

Here's a tip.  If I'm treating you respectfully and you insist on taking out your pent up rage on me because I made an honest mistake, you have just made me one of "those people" as far as you are concerned.
 
2013-07-17 11:42:40 AM  

GoldSpider: Monkeyhouse Zendo: As I said before "it" works as does "their". People don't like "it" because historically we've used "it" for objects which the language considers genderless but he and she for people which we view as gendered.

Well, that and "it" suggests "non-person".  I can understand why anyone would reject that term.


He may not be able to understand why, for reasons discussed upthread.
 
2013-07-17 11:43:15 AM  

Theaetetus: Danger Mouse: Since when where pronouns ment to identify an individuals personal  sexual preference?

Who says sexual preference has anything to do with pronouns?


The LBGTG comunity?

Yes, I am tying "gender identity" to sexuality.
 
2013-07-17 11:43:44 AM  

Joe Blowme: GoldSpider: Are there any advocacy groups trying to raise money to cure the brain defect that mixes up a person's personality and physical gender characteristics?  Because that would make a lot more sense than gender reassignment surgeries and social engineering.

THIS


No thanks.

Seriously, would you want to be brainwashed?
 
2013-07-17 11:45:03 AM  
And this is why I hate people.
 
2013-07-17 11:45:40 AM  
mrshowrules:Perhaps you don't realize how significant an issue gender identity is because you are secure in your identity.

Perhaps you don't realize that while I recognize gender dysphoria causes mental suffering I tend to rank suffering in terms of intensity. I have watched people dither over issues of social discomfort while they ignore others who live in hunger and want. Maybe that's not everyone who complains that they don't like the current set of gendered pronouns but it has certainly been my experience of them: well fed, comfortable, secure but driven to stamp out that last bit of discomfort before considering that others may be experiencing more acute and life threatening suffering.

I don't deny that they suffer. I simply view the pain of an unwanted pronoun to be like complaining that you have a splinter in your thumb and that once you have it out you'll turn your attention the person on fire.

Empathy is ability to understand other people's suffering even if you do not have direct experience with it.

What makes you think I don't understand the discomfort of a pronoun one doesn't fully identify with? Is it that I don't immediately leap assuage that pain?
 
2013-07-17 11:46:28 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I have watched people dither over issues of social discomfort while they ignore others who live in hunger and want.


Like, say, people who post in a Fark thread rather than working at their local shelter?
 
2013-07-17 11:47:25 AM  

GoldSpider: Monkeyhouse Zendo: As I said before "it" works as does "their". People don't like "it" because historically we've used "it" for objects which the language considers genderless but he and she for people which we view as gendered.

Well, that and "it" suggests "non-person".  I can understand why anyone would reject that term.


What does "zir" suggest?
 
2013-07-17 11:47:44 AM  

Theaetetus: Monkeyhouse Zendo: I have watched people dither over issues of social discomfort while they ignore others who live in hunger and want.

Like, say, people who post in a Fark thread rather than working at their local shelter?


oh snap
 
2013-07-17 11:48:31 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: mrshowrules:Perhaps you don't realize how significant an issue gender identity is because you are secure in your identity.

Perhaps you don't realize that while I recognize gender dysphoria causes mental suffering I tend to rank suffering in terms of intensity. I have watched people dither over issues of social discomfort while they ignore others who live in hunger and want. Maybe that's not everyone who complains that they don't like the current set of gendered pronouns but it has certainly been my experience of them: well fed, comfortable, secure but driven to stamp out that last bit of discomfort before considering that others may be experiencing more acute and life threatening suffering.

I don't deny that they suffer. I simply view the pain of an unwanted pronoun to be like complaining that you have a splinter in your thumb and that once you have it out you'll turn your attention the person on fire.

Empathy is ability to understand other people's suffering even if you do not have direct experience with it.

What makes you think I don't understand the discomfort of a pronoun one doesn't fully identify with? Is it that I don't immediately leap assuage that pain?


It's similar to someone having a name that is usually mispronounced. It's annoying, but I can't see much suffering past that.
 
2013-07-17 11:49:08 AM  

RobSeace: I drunk what: hey gaiz whats this thred?

Hey, it's IDW! I didn't think you visited anymore? Missed us?


click the profile
 
2013-07-17 11:53:53 AM  

pkellmey: It's similar to someone having a name that is usually mispronounced. It's annoying, but I can't see much suffering past that.


I'd suggest it's more similar to an Asian person being called Latino or vice versa. But that said, that's just the initial step...

Reasonable exchange:
"Hello, Mr. Johnson."
"That's Ms. Johnson."
"Oh, sorry, Ms. Johnson."

Unreasonable exchange, but apparently common, judging by this thread:
"Hello, Mr. Johnson."
"That's Ms. Johnson."
"No, it's Mr. Johnson, and how dare you attempt to force me to change my preconceptions! You're the real bigot here, not me. How about I just call you a narcissistic asshole instead?"
 
2013-07-17 11:54:25 AM  

Bontesla: The couches are traditionally in a room separate from the stalls. It's like a waiting area.


How boring.  Give me a good three toilet couch any day.
 
2013-07-17 11:54:50 AM  
Sweden has introduced a gender neutral third person singular pronoun has seen reduced hate crime.
 
2013-07-17 11:54:59 AM  

Maggie_Luna: Your friend was failed by her parents? I'm pretty sure those issues would have come in at puberty as not normal and s/he should have gone to the fracking doctor to make sure s/he wasn't experiencing something very abnormal, didn't have funky genetics, etc. Growing a full beard at puberty isn't normal for most women and unless your family has a history of ultra hairy gals then yeah, I think s/he was failed.


They didn't want to deal with it and even to this day she is afraid to tell them anything about anything. She ran away very young because of this. They love her and her them but it's that kind of ignoring the issue that has forced the people in the article into this somewhat odd behavior. If it wasn't a big deal and they felt accepted in the first place I doubt we'd have this level of pushback.

She has broken down in tears many times talking to me about this stuff because she so rarely gets to express herself to anyone.
 
2013-07-17 11:55:05 AM  
If everyone started using non-gender specific pronouns right ow, these people would find some new thing to be "oppressed" about by tomorrow.

/if everyone is special then no one is
 
2013-07-17 11:55:27 AM  

MechaPyx: Joe Blowme: GoldSpider: Are there any advocacy groups trying to raise money to cure the brain defect that mixes up a person's personality and physical gender characteristics?  Because that would make a lot more sense than gender reassignment surgeries and social engineering.

THIS

No thanks.

Seriously, would you want to be brainwashed?


I believe he was talking medically, like curing cancer or male pattern baldness... not ONLY send them to therapy. Has to be some wires crossed like with autism or  other genetic mutations

/no, not like the "gay conversion" therapy
 
2013-07-17 11:56:08 AM  

FatPrincess: Sweden has introduced a gender neutral third person singular pronoun has seen reduced hate crime.


t2.gstatic.com
 
2013-07-17 11:57:15 AM  

Theaetetus: Monkeyhouse Zendo: I have watched people dither over issues of social discomfort while they ignore others who live in hunger and want.

Like, say, people who post in a Fark thread rather than working at their local shelter?


At the office at the moment earning the money I donate to the local shelter for battered women and use to purchase canned food for the quarterly charity drives.

Look, I get that you want to make me the villain for considering the issue of gendered pronouns a triviality. It clearly marks me as a monster with no concern for my fellow man that I consider personal gender pronouns to be narcissistic. I'll stick to hunger and poverty and leave the big issues of pronoun use to the real social justice warriors. How's that?
 
2013-07-17 11:57:25 AM  

here to help: Maggie_Luna: Your friend was failed by her parents? I'm pretty sure those issues would have come in at puberty as not normal and s/he should have gone to the fracking doctor to make sure s/he wasn't experiencing something very abnormal, didn't have funky genetics, etc. Growing a full beard at puberty isn't normal for most women and unless your family has a history of ultra hairy gals then yeah, I think s/he was failed.

They didn't want to deal with it and even to this day she is afraid to tell them anything about anything. She ran away very young because of this. They love her and her them but it's that kind of ignoring the issue that has forced the people in the article into this somewhat odd behavior. If it wasn't a big deal and they felt accepted in the first place I doubt we'd have this level of pushback.

She has broken down in tears many times talking to me about this stuff because she so rarely gets to express herself to anyone.


Oh and it severely affected her health later in life. She's had to have surgeries because of what the chemical imbalances and pathetic attempts by doctors prescribing sh*tty drugs did to her body. She is however much healthier now that she is getting proper treatment.
 
2013-07-17 11:58:16 AM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: mrshowrules:Perhaps you don't realize how significant an issue gender identity is because you are secure in your identity.

Perhaps you don't realize that while I recognize gender dysphoria causes mental suffering I tend to rank suffering in terms of intensity. I have watched people dither over issues of social discomfort while they ignore others who live in hunger and want. Maybe that's not everyone who complains that they don't like the current set of gendered pronouns but it has certainly been my experience of them: well fed, comfortable, secure but driven to stamp out that last bit of discomfort before considering that others may be experiencing more acute and life threatening suffering.

I don't deny that they suffer. I simply view the pain of an unwanted pronoun to be like complaining that you have a splinter in your thumb and that once you have it out you'll turn your attention the person on fire.

Empathy is ability to understand other people's suffering even if you do not have direct experience with it.

What makes you think I don't understand the discomfort of a pronoun one doesn't fully identify with? Is it that I don't immediately leap assuage that pain?


The point is not the pronoun solution, it is that people are thinking/talking about it.  The empathy itself is the point of the exercise.  What comes out of might be important/significant but that it is happening is cool in and of itself.

Looking after people (hunger/shelter) works outwards from one's family, community, city etc.. etc..

The school and campus is seen as the student's community.  No one is freezing or starving to death in that community.  There are issues of rape, racial discrimination, bullying and yes the suffering associated with gender identity.  That someone is talking about this issues is cool.  I have no idea why this would bother anyone.

Having this discussion does not exclude working on more serious societal problems.  Empathy is like a muscle, it is not strained by overuse, it becomes stronger with use.
 
2013-07-17 11:58:47 AM  
My grandmother had a name for these people, "confused."

 I think it still summarizes it well.   Life doesn't always give you what you want.  Sorry.  I'm sorry if you are born with a penis and don't want it.  Life sucks.  Deal with it.
 
2013-07-17 12:00:12 PM  

pkellmey: It's similar to someone having a name that is usually mispronounced. It's annoying, but I can't see much suffering past that.


I know, right? My last name is very similar to the most common last name of an entirely different ethnicity. Every time I am referred to by the incorrect name I feel as if my ethnicity, nay, very identity has come into question.
 
2013-07-17 12:00:54 PM  

Sean M: My grandmother had a name for these people, "confused."

 I think it still summarizes it well.   Life doesn't always give you what you want.  Sorry.  I'm sorry if you are born with a penis and don't want it.  Life sucks.  Deal with it in the way that I insist you deal with it, rather than exercising one of the many options available to you.


FTFY.
 
2013-07-17 12:01:00 PM  
Sometimes for the benefit of society as a whole, the strong need to weed out the weak.
 
2013-07-17 12:02:43 PM  

Sean M: My grandmother had a name for these people, "confused."

I think it still summarizes it well. Life doesn't always give you what you want. Sorry. I'm sorry if you are born with a penis and don't want it. Life sucks. Deal with it.


So if someone is born with a heart defect or a parasitic twin are they "confused" as well? Should be told to just "deal with it"? In the case of many transgender people there is an abnormality that is very physical and very real and has significant health related consequences.
 
2013-07-17 12:03:45 PM  

mrshowrules: The point is not the pronoun solution, it is that people are thinking/talking about it.  The empathy itself is the point of the exercise.  What comes out of might be important/significant but that it is happening is cool in and of itself.


So the plan is to build empathy by being generally annoying? Have you really thought this through? I know the old axiom that "any publicity is good publicity" but I'm not certain that applies to every situation.
 
2013-07-17 12:03:57 PM  

here to help: here to help: Maggie_Luna: Your friend was failed by her parents? I'm pretty sure those issues would have come in at puberty as not normal and s/he should have gone to the fracking doctor to make sure s/he wasn't experiencing something very abnormal, didn't have funky genetics, etc. Growing a full beard at puberty isn't normal for most women and unless your family has a history of ultra hairy gals then yeah, I think s/he was failed.

They didn't want to deal with it and even to this day she is afraid to tell them anything about anything. She ran away very young because of this. They love her and her them but it's that kind of ignoring the issue that has forced the people in the article into this somewhat odd behavior. If it wasn't a big deal and they felt accepted in the first place I doubt we'd have this level of pushback.

She has broken down in tears many times talking to me about this stuff because she so rarely gets to express herself to anyone.

Oh and it severely affected her health later in life. She's had to have surgeries because of what the chemical imbalances and pathetic attempts by doctors prescribing sh*tty drugs did to her body. She is however much healthier now that she is getting proper treatment.


So she was failed by her parents.  Hormonal/health problems is hardly compared to this issue though, I'm pretty sure most of these people are special snowflakes. Choose a gender pronoun/name if you must and dress as you wish
 
2013-07-17 12:04:05 PM  

Sean M: My grandmother had a name for these people, "confused."

 I think it still summarizes it well.   Life doesn't always give you what you want.  Sorry.  I'm sorry if you are born with a penis and don't want it.  Life sucks.  Deal with it.


How very radical feminist of you.
 
2013-07-17 12:06:05 PM  

Theaetetus: pkellmey: It's similar to someone having a name that is usually mispronounced. It's annoying, but I can't see much suffering past that.

I'd suggest it's more similar to an Asian person being called Latino or vice versa. But that said, that's just the initial step...

Reasonable exchange:
"Hello, Mr. Johnson."
"That's Ms. Johnson."
"Oh, sorry, Ms. Johnson."

Unreasonable exchange, but apparently common, judging by this thread:
"Hello, Mr. Johnson."
"That's Ms. Johnson."
"No, it's Mr. Johnson, and how dare you attempt to force me to change my preconceptions! You're the real bigot here, not me. How about I just call you a narcissistic asshole instead?"


Strangely, the second is not that uncommon. My family all called me Miss when I was young, though I dressed and acted like a boy most of the time. Strangers could say something as simple as "thank you, sir" if I held the door for them (I'm southern, it's courtesy) and if I dared say aloud "that's ma'am, please" . . . they'd blow a gasket. How dare a little girl wear a baseball cap and have a pony tail sticking out the back of it (I was a ball fan before the strike, and sure, that style might give a few clues to my age). Then they'd lay in on what ever family I was with, for daring to allow . . .

So, while most of the world wants to believe that things should fall into the first category, a good many people intentionally drag it into the second.
 
2013-07-17 12:06:20 PM  

here to help: So if someone is born with a heart defect or a parasitic twin are they "confused" as well?


People with heart defects and / or parasitic twins are upset about gendered pronoun use? Okay I guess but since both of those are actual medical problems and possibly life threatening I'd actually suggest that they see a doctor rather than a linguist.
 
2013-07-17 12:07:53 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: CowardlyLion: English is generally lacking in useful gender-neutral pronouns. This is not a new thing or a sudden fad, much less an indication of people somehow being stupid (it's kind of the exact opposite--people are aware of things that they don't readily have words for and want to make words to describe them rather than fumbling with imprecise language). People have tried to make up for that shortcoming for centuries. If someone manages to make broadly-accepted, new, gender-neutral pronouns, that would be wonderful.

As I said before "it" works as does "their". People don't like "it" because historically we've used "it" for objects which the language considers genderless but he and she for people which we view as gendered. If one wants to be viewed as gender neutral, "it" is the proper pronoun.

You want to know English really needs? A you inclusive.


Okay, so, if you're already well aware of the problems with existing English pronouns, I'm not sure why you think it's stupid for people to want pronouns to address unmet needs of English-speakers.
 
2013-07-17 12:08:39 PM  

Quinsisdos: How very radical feminist of you.


Radical feminists are big fans of MTF transexuals. Once you've had the penis you've been tainted with privilege and, conversely, privileged with a taint, I guess.
 
2013-07-17 12:09:07 PM  

here to help: Sean M: My grandmother had a name for these people, "confused."

I think it still summarizes it well. Life doesn't always give you what you want. Sorry. I'm sorry if you are born with a penis and don't want it. Life sucks. Deal with it.

So if someone is born with a heart defect or a parasitic twin are they "confused" as well? Should be told to just "deal with it"? In the case of many transgender people there is an abnormality that is very physical and very real and has significant health related consequences.


So it can be cured with modern medicine, that's a relief. Do you want to tell them or should i? Someone should sop we can get them to the hospital or Dr. office and get them fixed.
 
2013-07-17 12:10:13 PM  

Maggie_Luna: I'm pretty sure most of these people are special snowflakes.


Makes it easier to dismiss them that way, right? Your attitude only makes their actions more necessary. Doesn't matter anyway. It's their generation and they are choosing what kind of world they want to live in. It really has nothing to do with you.
 
2013-07-17 12:10:37 PM  

GoldSpider: Are there any advocacy groups trying to raise money to cure the brain defect that mixes up a person's personality and physical gender characteristics?  Because that would make a lot more sense than gender reassignment surgeries and social engineering.


I would happily raise money for that. 

CowardlyLion: Monkeyhouse Zendo: CowardlyLion: Thanks for totally clearing that up with your brilliant explanation.

The referenced statement "...a new generation of young people is..." implies that insistence on personal pronouns is a fad among younger people. This fad is, on its face, idiotic as we already have gender neutral pronouns and honestly, this only affects a tiny but easily offended fraction of the population. The implication is that since "young people" are obsessed with these trivialities, they are an example of successive generations getting dumber which was the core premise of Idiocracy.

...so where exactly is there any information about what young people want or think in that quote?

English is generally lacking in useful gender-neutral pronouns. This is not a new thing or a sudden fad, much less an indication of people somehow being stupid (it's kind of the exact opposite--people are aware of things that they don't readily have words for and want to make words to describe them rather than fumbling with imprecise language). People have tried to make up for that shortcoming for centuries. If someone manages to make broadly-accepted, new, gender-neutral pronouns, that would be wonderful.


I think people think Portlandia is really a documentary.
 
2013-07-17 12:10:52 PM  
Snowflake?

O.K, I'll do it:

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com

YEAH!
 
2013-07-17 12:12:14 PM  
 
2013-07-17 12:13:05 PM  
Maggie_Luna:

If you really want to help your friend get her check out at a doctor's office before she has cancer.
 
2013-07-17 12:13:28 PM  

Yogimus: And they wonder why they earn less...


Are you saying that if I start wearing button-downs and trousers to work that I will get a raise?
 
2013-07-17 12:15:08 PM  

alice_600: Maggie_Luna:

If you really want to help your friend get her check out at a doctor's office before she has cancer.


It was my friend and yes... that is exactly what has been going on. She was at extremely high risk for cancer because of this sh*t. Now she is not.
 
2013-07-17 12:15:37 PM  

MechaPyx: Seriously, would you want to be brainwashed?


I bet you're with the militant deaf who oppose cochlear implants on the grounds that they are destructive to the "deaf community".
 
2013-07-17 12:15:39 PM  

CowardlyLion: Okay, so, if you're already well aware of the problems with existing English pronouns, I'm not sure why you think it's stupid for people to want pronouns to address unmet needs of English-speakers.


I consider the underlying motivation to be narcissism. This isn't an issue of a man identifying as a women because we have a pronoun for that: her. This isn't an issue of a women identifying as a man because we have a pronoun for that: her.

This is an issue for people who dislike the idea of identifying as any gender for any fixed length of time. It is a vanishingly small group of people clamoring that language be fundamentally modified to suit them. I recognize that they're unhappy with language but until a significant number of people have their brains transplanted into genderless robot bodies I consider their complaint to be a triviality.
 
2013-07-17 12:17:09 PM  

alice_600: I think people think Portlandia is really a documentary.


This thread isn't doing much to change that.
 
2013-07-17 12:17:38 PM  

Monkeyhouse Zendo: I consider the underlying motivation to be narcissism. This isn't an issue of a man identifying as a women because we have a pronoun for that: her. This isn't an issue of a women identifying as a man because we have a pronoun for that: her.


I consider it narcissistic of you to insist that they use the pronouns you deem proper. It has nothing to do with you. Literally nothing.
 
2013-07-17 12:19:39 PM  

GoldSpider: MechaPyx: Seriously, would you want to be brainwashed?

I bet you're with the militant deaf who oppose cochlear implants on the grounds that they are destructive to the "deaf community".


Thanks, I really didn't need to be reminded of those assholes. They can spend their lives in silence for all I care. What infuriates me is when they lobby against implants for children.
 
2013-07-17 12:19:41 PM  

FatPrincess: Monkeyhouse Zendo: FatPrincess: Giving bigots a model for social communication with non-binary gender presenting individuals would help reduce violence.

Why should I let you hand wave your assertion away as "it's complicated"?

Okay, I'm just winging it here so I'll consider all criticism as constructive.

In the formation of community we inquire about his or her relationship to it and to others' participation. Membership in a community requires identification and a common symbol system. Non-conforming individuals who physically reside in the community risk dehumanization, threats, and depersonalization into stereotypical caricatures as bigots try to police the cultural norms. Discussing a scheme of social interactions such as gender neutral pronouns will raise the sociological hierarchy of bigots from behavior and action, such as punching and kicking, to social relation where they instead have a framework for integrating the transsexual as a community member instead of bashing them.


Wow! How bigoted of you to point that out. Let me guess you also believe in thin privilege and that heterosexual anything is rape. So what else did you blindly believe in your women's studies classes taught by your hysterically insane professor?
 
2013-07-17 12:20:41 PM  

here to help: Maggie_Luna: I'm pretty sure most of these people are special snowflakes.

Makes it easier to dismiss them that way, right? Your attitude only makes their actions more necessary. Doesn't matter anyway. It's their generation and they are choosing what kind of world they want to live in. It really has nothing to do with you.


Those people are in my generation,dude. There is a point though where 'movements' take the wrong turn and into stupidity.  I'm not going to argue with someone who has their righteous stick so far up their bum they're unwilling to see other perspectives.  I never said it had to do with me but I'm expressing my opinion on my view just as you are.

I am honestly believing these people are mostly narcissistic and entitled or just want to be 'different'. We all went through a phase of some sort for that.
 
2013-07-17 12:20:55 PM  

GoldSpider: Smackledorfer: Nabb1: And people wonder why we are lagging behind the rest of the industrialized world in science and math education and more and more high tech jobs are headed overseas.

Yep, it is the lgbt civil rights movement that destroys our ability to do math and science jobs for less money than a company can hire someone in china to do.

Truly you understand world economics and international business models.

Why not respond to his argument instead of deliberately mischaracterizing it in order to put him on the defensive?


How did I mischaracterize it?
 
2013-07-17 12:21:10 PM  

here to help: Monkeyhouse Zendo: I consider the underlying motivation to be narcissism. This isn't an issue of a man identifying as a women because we have a pronoun for that: her. This isn't an issue of a women identifying as a man because we have a pronoun for that: her.

I consider it narcissistic of you to insist that they use the pronouns you deem proper. It has nothing to do with you. Literally nothing.


The english language is narcissistic, who knew.

I am sure the world would be