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(Think Progress)   Spiffy: McDonald's helps full-time, low-wage workers fill out a budget. Asinine: By suggesting workers spend $20 a month for health insurance, shut off their heating, live in a slum, and find another full-time, low-wage job to supplement income   (thinkprogress.org) divider line 201
    More: Asinine, McDonalds, wage workers, fast food restaurants  
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3075 clicks; posted to Business » on 15 Jul 2013 at 6:19 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



201 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-07-15 10:09:28 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: whistleridge: Said budget:

[thinkprogress.org image 467x588]

Highlights:

* it expects you to work 80 hours per week
* it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance
* the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well
* it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense
* it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has

How cute that it thinks folks who are struggling to make ends meet will have $800 to kick around during the month.


That $800 is for stuff like food and heat and cell phones and all the stuff everyone is whining isn't on the list.

Absurd complaints from think progress, as usual.

Once again: if an employer offers you a wage that is less than what you think your time is worth, then don't take the farking job!
 
2013-07-15 10:10:51 PM  

Goimir: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job

I've got 10 years experience as a welder, 3 years as a commercial electrician, 1 year project management experience.  Willing to relocate.

EIP.


I don't know nothing much about them other than they are hiring welders like crazy

http://www.valmont.com/valmont/company/careers
 
2013-07-15 10:12:40 PM  
For the housing debate: Applications for subsidized housing in Los Angeles have been closed since Dec 2011. I don't think they've been reopened.

So, yeah, how's that social safety net holding up for you?
 
2013-07-15 10:15:43 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Once again: if an employer offers you a wage that is less than what you think your time is worth, then don't take the farking job!


Peki: So, yeah, how's that social safety net holding up for you?


Not anywhere close enough to make Debeo Summa Crederp's comment a reality.
 
2013-07-15 10:16:29 PM  
80 hours a week, eh?  Because two businesses are going to hire you at exactly full time with non-overlapping schedules and you'll teleport from one to the other.

Hell, these days 80 hours is like four jobs on opposite ends of town.  You'd probably devote well over 100 hours a week trying to keep up with the commutes and uniform changes.  Forget about sleep.  You haven't earned sleep yet.
 
2013-07-15 10:20:53 PM  

jake3988: B) Car insurance at $100 a month is absurdly low? WTF car insurance do you have? Mine is $250 for 6 months.


Crappy credit, sketchy ZIP code, any lapses in coverage over the past three too five years...not to mention age and MVR.  There are plenty of ways you can be up the creek for $100 or so a month, even on state minimums.  I saw it all the time when I worked for two different P&C insurers.

/And in WI, which is a pretty cheap state for autos.
//Heaven help you in a place like CA, NJ/NY.
 
2013-07-15 10:22:01 PM  
The general problem is that people are willing to sell their labor so cheap.

/I'd make an evil econometrist.
 
2013-07-15 10:31:56 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Debeo Summa Credo: Once again: if an employer offers you a wage that is less than what you think your time is worth, then don't take the farking job!

Peki: So, yeah, how's that social safety net holding up for you?

Not anywhere close enough to make Debeo Summa Crederp's comment a reality.


That's why I bring specifics in whenever someone starts in with that crap. They make it obvious they have NO CONCEPT OF REALITY.

/sigh
 
2013-07-15 10:33:11 PM  
From the looks of the crappy salary i think the second job is working at another McDonalds.
 
2013-07-15 10:37:49 PM  

YodaTuna: The problem is adults with families making this kind of money,


I was told that they deserve to be poor, because they are poor.

"They are doing it wrong."
 
2013-07-15 10:38:24 PM  

Peki: Sergeant Grumbles: Debeo Summa Credo: Once again: if an employer offers you a wage that is less than what you think your time is worth, then don't take the farking job!

Peki: So, yeah, how's that social safety net holding up for you?

Not anywhere close enough to make Debeo Summa Crederp's comment a reality.

That's why I bring specifics in whenever someone starts in with that crap. They make it obvious they have NO CONCEPT OF REALITY.

/sigh


Reality is market wages. If you don't think wages offered are worth your time, don't take the job. If not for McDonald's offering whatever they are offering, the hypothetical employee would be trying to pay for all that stuff without the wages they get from
McDonald's.
 
2013-07-15 10:44:18 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: If you don't think wages offered are worth your time, don't take the job.


If you can't afford food, don't eat, amirite?
 
2013-07-15 10:46:45 PM  

xynix: but at the end of the day if you work your ass off you will get rewarded. Otherwise it's weak minded bullshiat.


yglesias.thinkprogress.org
mattbruenig.com
media.economist.com
futureofchildren.org
www.brookings.edu
 
2013-07-15 11:02:25 PM  

Ken VeryBigLiar: jake3988: B) Car insurance at $100 a month is absurdly low? WTF car insurance do you have? Mine is $250 for 6 months.

Crappy credit, sketchy ZIP code, any lapses in coverage over the past three too five years...not to mention age and MVR.  There are plenty of ways you can be up the creek for $100 or so a month, even on state minimums.  I saw it all the time when I worked for two different P&C insurers.

/And in WI, which is a pretty cheap state for autos.
//Heaven help you in a place like CA, NJ/NY.


Yep.  $235/month here in CA for state minimums and a $500 deductible.  Mind you, I'm 21 and I have an insanelyterrible driving record so I'm correctly paying $235/month for the privilege of driving maybe 200 miles/month and not using the car for commuting.

/And sadly, while mass transit exists, it's not good enough in the burbs to justify using it for every single thing.
//It's barely good enough to justify commuting to work (station to station on the heavy rail) even when work is paying for it and that's just sad.
 
2013-07-15 11:25:38 PM  

DrPainMD: If you're a low-wage McDonald's worker, and you're not a teenager living with your parents, you're doing it wrong.


You do realize that most people in America work in the service industry right (Yes I know healthcare is included/pays well)? The idea that only teenagers are going to work in retail or in fast food/restaurants is highly unrealistic. True, everyone should probably go into either healthcare or programming if they want a job that is secure and that pays well. Still, people complain about customer service these day, well you get what you pay for.
 
2013-07-15 11:29:12 PM  

bbfreak: or programming if they want a job that is secure


I'm sure the programmers in Hungary whom my old job was outsourced to will revel in their unshakable job security.
 
2013-07-15 11:36:03 PM  

fnordfocus: So the law requires all unemployed people to be homeless?

This doesn't match my experience renting in California.


No. If you rent a place and then become unemployed, this does not apply. If you are unemployed and submit an application to rent, it will probably be rejected because most places follow this guideline.

So if you lose your job you had better come up with the rent each month or else you just might be homeless.
 
2013-07-16 12:02:04 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: bbfreak: or programming if they want a job that is secure

I'm sure the programmers in Hungary whom my old job was outsourced to will revel in their unshakable job security.


Sorry to hear that, hope you found something better. Also my point is that society isn't served by so many low income workers and income inequality. Of course it would help if we had a better public eduction system and better access to opportunities. You don't like paying for welfare? Well tough shiat as long as people can barely afford to eat, or need healthcare for their children.
 
2013-07-16 12:04:02 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Debeo Summa Credo: If you don't think wages offered are worth your time, don't take the job.

If you can't afford food, don't eat, amirite?


Exactly, ya figure out the baseline nutritional value of a 3 pack 2 day old rye vs 2 Save a lot tins of tuna and a half dozen pallet of ramen.

Poop head. Save and retrieve solider, save and retrieve.
 
2013-07-16 12:14:30 AM  

bbfreak: Sorry to hear that, hope you found something better. Also my point is that society isn't served by so many low income workers and income inequality. Of course it would help if we had a better public eduction system and better access to opportunities. You don't like paying for welfare? Well tough shiat as long as people can barely afford to eat, or need healthcare for their children.


Not better, unfortunately, but passable. The last job was too good to be true. Good pay, good benefits, clear training and career tracks.... Things that management doesn't like to foot the bill for anymore. They've tried to bring back some of that since then, and I even briefly had some contract work with them. But I guess they deemed even that too expensive and last I heard they were using interns at <$10/hr to do what got me $21/hr + bennies. Hell, I interned to get a job there and they started me at $15.

It's not just access to opportunities, it's the opportunities themselves.
 
2013-07-16 12:14:41 AM  
We really have no idea what the assumed hours  and wages are.  ThinkProgress just threw out "$8.25 average wage."  The budget lists net income; we don't know what tax deductions are made.  No clue what gross income or hours worked are.

It seems probable that a front-line McD's worker is going to be  getting 30 hours/week or less.  A second job would probably be similar.  So maybe a lucky soul gets 50-60 hours a week.  At $8.25/hour, that's $1787 to $2145 per month GROSS income.

FICA tax is 6.2%, bringing this hypothetical range down to $1676 to $2012.  I've no idea what to withhold for income tax.  This could be a single person, a single parent, or a married person with or without kids.

Now let's get real and assume 3 weeks/year without work.  We're down to $1580 to $1896 per month net of FICA but before income taxes, state and federal (maybe city, too).

Budget's net income assumption is total bullshiat. No farking way a front-line McD's worker has $800 left over at the end of a month.
 
2013-07-16 12:17:08 AM  

Wall_of_Doodoo: Exactly, ya figure out the baseline nutritional value of a 3 pack 2 day old rye vs 2 Save a lot tins of tuna and a half dozen pallet of ramen.

Poop head. Save and retrieve solider, save and retrieve.


I was being facetious and I think much less of you for agreeing if you're not doing so with sarcasm. Hard to tell.
 
2013-07-16 12:17:50 AM  
I know that if I just keep busting my ass. surely God will reward me?!!!?!!?

/'well, it worked just fine for me...'
 
2013-07-16 12:20:31 AM  

Goimir: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job

I've got 10 years experience as a welder, 3 years as a commercial electrician, 1 year project management experience.  Willing to relocate.

EIP.


http://nd.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=welder&zoomToPosting=&srchT y pe=A">http://nd.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=welder&zoomToPosting= &srchTy pe=A
 
2013-07-16 12:36:39 AM  
fast food is for the poor by the poor. or lazy, cheap, or nostalgic middle/rich people.
 
2013-07-16 12:49:12 AM  

mr lawson: Goimir: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job

I've got 10 years experience as a welder, 3 years as a commercial electrician, 1 year project management experience.  Willing to relocate.

EIP.

http://nd.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=welder&zoomToPosting=&srchT y pe=A">http://nd.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=welder&zoomToPosting= &srchTy pe=A


Six posts this month on Craigslist, one is by a person (miscatagorized) looking for work.

One that reads $22/hr, others posting a wide salary range which means they'll hire you on at $14-$15/hr and "see how you work out" as they don't **need** someone who's a $20/hr welder, but would like to hook one in and get a year or so out of him by stringing him along with the promise of more money.  In reality, they'll be happy to hire a kid out of votech and biatch at him for not being like the guy who was forced into an early retirement because they were paying him $25/hr even though he was worth every cent of it.  "Competitive" means $10/hr, always.  Every.  Single.  Time.

No, if you're going to tell people that if they only had a trade they could get a decent job, have a decent job to offer.  Put up or shut up.  I know how to use craigslist.  I've gotten quite a few jobs off of craigslist.  Usually they're startups or other cash-strapped companies who can't afford an actual ad, or they're looking for something so specific that a newspaper classified isn't going to reach enough people to get a response.

/very jaded
//actually thinking about saying "fark welding" and being a musician instead
 
2013-07-16 12:57:14 AM  

lordargent: whistleridge: insurance are absurdly low as well

The car insurance quote is ok for an adult (non teen) with a clean record.

But I'm wondering how they managed to get a house to need home insurance? I think it means renters insurance :P

/my car insurance is down to $80 a month. I do remember a time in the distant past though when I was paying close to $200 a month.


I'm paying 200 a month now.
Sure, it's four vehicles with full coverage, but it's $200 a month.
 
2013-07-16 12:59:26 AM  
Seems appropriate:

i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-16 01:13:54 AM  
This argument is coming down to a disturbing fact. Most people think that subsistence is adequate. A meritocracy is not an issue.
 
2013-07-16 01:15:18 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: The My Little Pony Killer: whistleridge: Said budget:

[thinkprogress.org image 467x588]

Highlights:

* it expects you to work 80 hours per week
* it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance
* the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well
* it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense
* it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has

How cute that it thinks folks who are struggling to make ends meet will have $800 to kick around during the month.

That $800 is for stuff like food and heat and cell phones and all the stuff everyone is whining isn't on the list.

Absurd complaints from think progress, as usual.

Once again: if an employer offers you a wage that is less than what you think your time is worth, then don't take the farking job!


So, the people who take it deserve what they get yeh?
 
2013-07-16 01:31:49 AM  

inclemency: This argument is coming down to a disturbing fact. Most people think that subsistence is adequate. A meritocracy is not an issue.


This.

It's a little shiatty to hear that you deserve to starve due to a series of events that were never conceivable prior to the choice you made, or weren't due to the choices you made anyway (like, for instance, my fault that my father took out a 300K loan on a house, which if we don't keep will send four of us into homelessness).

The best explanation I've ever heard between Republicans and Dems is this: Democrats understand that we are all one or a few bad days away from absolute disaster, and believe that everyone should have a helping hand if that happens. Republicans think people deserve what they get, then scream special circumstances when bad shiat happens to them for no reason.
 
2013-07-16 02:17:07 AM  

inclemency: This argument is coming down to a disturbing fact. Most people think that subsistence is adequate. A meritocracy is not an issue.


Not to mention recent studies have been showing that all that 'grit your teeth and bootstrap up' doesnt work and has massive detrimental effects on your health.

Whats the point of being disturbingly cheap and working yourself half to death every day? So that you can wake up tomorrow and do it all over again? Where does it get you?Whats the point of doing it all to just have to do it all over again? Sounds like a horror story to me. Work today so you can survive to work tomorrow. When you cant work any more pray you qualify for government assistance or that you have people who love you and are willing to take care of you.

If i learned anything today its that the farker 'wall of shiat' is probly a psychopath. Seriously dude -- empathy. You need some. You sound like Dennis on "its always sunny". Just... terrible. Just a terrible human being.
 
2013-07-16 03:34:20 AM  

Snapper Carr: jake3988: E) Food needs to be represented only if it's not free to eat during your shift at McD's, which I certainly hope it is. If it is and you work 40 hours a week... that's... virtually every meal which is why it's not represented here.

That's...probably going to kill you by age 40 if you do it for too long.


And what a relief that will be.
/at the end of the day you're another day older...
 
2013-07-16 05:18:19 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Once again: if an employer offers you a wage that is less than what you think your time is worth, then don't take the farking job!


Goddamn, I hope you choke on a spear.
 
2013-07-16 07:14:10 AM  
If only the SEC had any teeth left McDonald's would have it's own money problem, no longer being a public corporation and figuring out how to come up with the billions in cash needed to pay off the value of the shares in public and investor hands. If McDonald's thinks its employees can do without good wages, it can do without the privilege of being a public corporation.
 
2013-07-16 07:52:28 AM  
Burger Flipping is an intermediate job.
If you are trying to make a career out of it, there is the real issue
 
2013-07-16 08:08:19 AM  

Spaz-master: Burger Flipping is an intermediate job.
If you are trying to make a career out of it, there is the real issue


What exactly do you think somebody who needs money to feed their kids in a depressed area should do instead?

I'm sure they can magically procure money for college, or better interview outfits, or the time to go interview somewhere else!
 
2013-07-16 08:27:21 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Wall_of_Doodoo: A person who thinks success comes from simple luck, race, or other factors doesn't understand how reality works.

A person who thinks success comes from simply teeth gritting and never settling doesn't understand how reality works.


gglibertine: xynix: I'm always hearing people on Fark biatching about how hard life is but at the end of the day if you work your ass off you will get rewarded. Otherwise it's weak minded bullshiat.

You're wrong. I understand why you think you're right, but you're wrong. Life is not, has never been, and never will be that fair for most people. You might want to try to muster up a little gratitude that your life has never gone so far south that it was unrecoverable, because not everyone is that lucky.

/And if you don't feel lucky, you're a farking idiot.


It's both.  People that say "You make your own luck" are often right.  Hard work and persistence usually pay off.  On the other hand, making poor decisions (A fancy new car with a big loan early-on, an apartment for 25% more money than you should be spending because it's on the right street, every shiny new electronic bauble has to be yours, you won't take an entry-level job that might become something because it pays 10% less than the dead-end job you have now, etc.) will usually bite you in the ass.

Lots of people seem to believe that the system is stacked against them and they assume that they'll never be "successful" (whatever that means).  They're almost invariably right.  They don't make the sacrifices that give them a shot at "making it" because they assume it won't work out.  Obviously, unless you're really lucky, you're going to end up in a crappy job for the rest of your life unless you make an effort to better your situation.

But it's not automatic.  You can work really, really hard and if enough bad stuff happens you may never get out of the hole.

We need a way to prop the people up who have consistently made a legitimate effort but circumstances have always conspired against.  On the other hand, we need a way to minimize the reward we give to people who consistently and willfully fark up and are unwilling to take any responsibility for it.

/Doing pretty well.
//Worked very, very hard.
///Realize I'm also fortunate.
////Not a black & white issue.
 
2013-07-16 08:35:37 AM  

epoch_destroi: Spaz-master: Burger Flipping is an intermediate job.
If you are trying to make a career out of it, there is the real issue

What exactly do you think somebody who needs money to feed their kids in a depressed area should do instead?

I'm sure they can magically procure money for college, or better interview outfits, or the time to go interview somewhere else!


They need to use it as a short term gateway to a real job.
The employer is not the parent.  The employer isn't responsible for those kids.
If they are looking to be teens sponging on a parent figure for life, that is their choice, but it isn't the employer's responsibility to be that provider.
Your rant about magically procuring money is bogus and effectively comes down to "who will cover their costs?"
 
2013-07-16 08:42:52 AM  

Wall_of_Doodoo: A person who thinks success comes from simple luck, race, or other factors doesn't understand how reality works.


And a person that thinks all it takes to get ahead in life is hard work and determination and can't understand why people don't just work harder is a privileged asshole that truely has no idea how the real world works.
 
2013-07-16 08:50:43 AM  

epoch_destroi: Spaz-master: Burger Flipping is an intermediate job.
If you are trying to make a career out of it, there is the real issue

What exactly do you think somebody who needs money to feed their kids in a depressed area should do instead?

I'm sure they can magically procure money for college, or better interview outfits, or the time to go interview somewhere else!


No.  They work the "intermediate job" until they can make something better happen.  Not wait for something better to come along, but actually make a plan and work toward something better.  And if that doesn't work out, then make another plan.

Seriously, the time to go interview somewhere?  If your excuse is that you can't buy a pair of khakis and a button-down shirt from Goodwill and make a few hours to go to an interview, then you're exactly the person I'm talking about in my previous post.

If you get a temp job in manufacturing here, you'll make more than you do at McDonalds.  It's a super-easy job to get.  If you demonstrate that you're a good worker, you'll get a "permanent" job here.  There's no guarantee, and it won't happen overnight, but we hire basically all of our manufacturing staff that way.  So what's better?  Work at McDonalds forever for $8.25/hr or call Manpower, get a temp job in one of the manufacturing plants here that pays more than that with the hopes of ending up with a really solid job before your temp contract expires?  But by your logic, you don't have time to show up for the interview to get that temp job.  Weak sauce.
 
2013-07-16 09:01:56 AM  
Newsflash:  Working at McDonald's is not a recipe for having a prosperous, independent life with your own apartment, car, and cable tv.
 
2013-07-16 09:07:26 AM  
Parkanzky:  an apartment for 25% more money than you should be spending because it's on the right street,

Yep, much better to just live in some shiat apartment with shiat neighbors that feel it is their right to stomp around partying at 2 in the morning every morning and when you try to politely ask them to keep it down because you have to work in the morning, they get pissed at you for disrespecting them, key your car and do everything they can to make your life a living hell.
 
2013-07-16 09:11:30 AM  

jake3988: E) Food needs to be represented only if it's not free to eat during your shift at McD's, which I certainly hope it is. If it is and you work 40 hours a week... that's... virtually every meal which is why it's not represented here.


When I worked there you got a standard value meal and a desert every four hours, which can add up to a LOT of McDonald's Meals if you're working 12+ hour shifts on a regular basis.

No idea what the policy is these days.
 
2013-07-16 09:17:47 AM  
I lived in a ~$250/mo two bedroom apartment for a year.  This was in 1998, so adjust accordingly.  It was a crap-hole, but it was a perfectly adequate place to live.  There are also really terrible places to live as well.  I didn't choose one of those.

I'm not saying it's easy to live on a meager salary and incrementally improve your situation, obviously more money gives you more options.  But it's possible.  Feel free to keep believing that your station in life is everybody's fault but yours if it helps you to sleep better at night.  It might even be true.  Sometimes people are dealt a really bad hand.

One statistic I'd like to see is how much the average cable bill is for households in various income brackets.  I'm guessing the very lowest quintiles have to do without out of necessity, but the lower-middle spends more than the upper-middle because they define "necessity" differently.
 
2013-07-16 09:32:04 AM  
Yeah.. I used to change oil for $9 an hour (highest paid hourly employee in the company, woo.....) and its literally impossible to survive off that.  I had my parents sending me grocery gift cards, and I had paid my car off before moving out on my own so I didnt even have car payments.  Was impossible.

I sold drugs, stole quarters out of cars, scammed walmart out of electronics.. all kinds of things *shrug*.  Of course, I reinvested my illicit money into getting me out of that situation, unlike most people in that life, but whatever.

I understand.

You're a moron if you decide to stay in that position though.    Whatever you have to do to get yourself out of it, do it... just make sure you actually get  out.
 
2013-07-16 09:40:33 AM  

Goimir: //actually thinking about saying "fark welding" and being a musician instead


Join a welders union and be willing to move, is my only advice for that field.  I know welders who make a fark ton of money doing construction welding.
 
2013-07-16 09:44:13 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-16 09:45:50 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: No farking way a front-line McD's worker has $800 left over at the end of a month.


That's not what it says. The $800 is for buying food and clothing, putting gas in the POS car one is buying on $150/mo, paying for season's tickets to the Raiders, etc.
 
2013-07-16 09:51:17 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Reality is market wages. If you don't think wages offered are worth your time, don't take the job. If not for McDonald's offering whatever they are offering, the hypothetical employee would be trying to pay for all that stuff without the wages they get from
McDonald's.


Spoken like the useless MBA shiat-stain you are.
 
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