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(Think Progress)   Spiffy: McDonald's helps full-time, low-wage workers fill out a budget. Asinine: By suggesting workers spend $20 a month for health insurance, shut off their heating, live in a slum, and find another full-time, low-wage job to supplement income   (thinkprogress.org) divider line 203
    More: Asinine, McDonalds, wage workers, fast food restaurants  
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3065 clicks; posted to Business » on 15 Jul 2013 at 6:19 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-16 09:51:17 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Reality is market wages. If you don't think wages offered are worth your time, don't take the job. If not for McDonald's offering whatever they are offering, the hypothetical employee would be trying to pay for all that stuff without the wages they get from
McDonald's.


Spoken like the useless MBA shiat-stain you are.
 
2013-07-16 09:52:49 AM
Young white males shouldn't be allowed to comment on how easy it is to get a good paying job.

Especially if they work in IT.

Would you hire a forty year old single mother of three who only had wage slave jobs on their resume to manage your network?  Even if she had certification?

No, no you wouldn't.
 
2013-07-16 09:53:41 AM
Newsflash: nobody owes you a goddamn thing. I am sorry if your parents never told you that.
 
2013-07-16 09:58:21 AM

sendtodave: Would you hire a forty year old single mother of three who only had wage slave jobs on their resume to manage your network?  Even if she had certification?

No, no you wouldn't.


You know how I know you dont actually manage people for a living?  If she was actually capable, I would always hire a parent with dependents over a fresh privileged college grad.  Every.  Single.  Time.

Of course, IT is a field that is notoriously bad for age and sexual discrimination I guess.  I would automatically assume a 40 year old woman with kids would be no where near as knowledgeable about IT as a nerd kid who grew up in that lifestyle, and I'd probably be right.

Thats what job screening is for though.
 
2013-07-16 10:01:32 AM

Wall_of_Doodoo: Ivo Shandor: whistleridge: * it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has

That would fall under "Cable/Phone - $100".

WRONG!!!

'Poor' people are rolling in free Obamaphones that they sponge off the EARNERS to pay for.

SHEEPLE WAKE UP! The poors don't need to budget! When you suck of the endless money teet of the socialist usurper the EARNERS are responsibility for the slackers.


You misspelled Reaganphones.
 
2013-07-16 10:04:50 AM

Alonjar: You know how I know you dont actually manage people for a living? If she was actually capable, I would always hire a parent with dependents over a fresh privileged college grad. Every. Single. Time.

Of course, IT is a field that is notoriously bad for age and sexual discrimination I guess. I would automatically assume a 40 year old woman with kids would be no where near as knowledgeable about IT as a nerd kid who grew up in that lifestyle, and I'd probably be right.


So, I'm wrong in saying that discrimination happens, but but I'm right in saying that discrimination happens, but I'm wrong because it happens for a good reason.

Thanks for clearing that up.

My point still stands:  White male is easy mode.  Even more so if you didn't grow up poor.

Older female immigrant, or poor Afro-American with kids?  God mode.  Even getting past level one is insane.
 
2013-07-16 10:09:07 AM

Alonjar: I would automatically assume a 40 year old woman with kids would be no where near as knowledgeable about IT as a nerd kid who grew up in that lifestyle, and I'd probably be right.


Actually, I should have focused on this part.

What would you assume that a 40 year old, single minority woman (with children) would be knowledgeable in that would pay an actual salary?

Washing clothes?  Cooking food?  Because that's what they do.

I mean, if we are going to blame them for making bad choices and all.  They should have chosen to be born in the subrubs to white people, instead of wherever the fark they came from.

Now hurry up with my burger, cog!
 
2013-07-16 10:11:55 AM

Alonjar: Goimir: //actually thinking about saying "fark welding" and being a musician instead

Join a welders union and be willing to move, is my only advice for that field.  I know welders who make a fark ton of money doing construction welding.


I know welders who have joined the union and got screwed.  They work about 20 hours a week and about three weeks a month.  The only union welders I know that make any money are guys I've met in bars in their fifties who have been in the union for 20 years and thus have enough seniority to actually work "union full time", which is to say 6 months on at $35/hr, 6 months collecting unemployment.
 
2013-07-16 10:18:21 AM
$20 health insurance? LOL! I have it at work, and still have to contribute $360 a month.
 
2013-07-16 10:20:22 AM

The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Newsflash: nobody owes you a goddamn thing. I am sorry if your parents never told you that.


So be born rich?
 
2013-07-16 10:49:12 AM

Pick: $20 health insurance? LOL! I have it at work, and still have to contribute $360 a month.


My last job was very generous in health care regards and I was paying 25 a pay check for a single person's healthcare, vision and dental.
 
2013-07-16 10:49:38 AM
Other income........stealing from asshole corporate employer that treats you inhumanly (food!? don't budget for that): amount undisclosed.
 
2013-07-16 10:50:52 AM

Parkanzky: On the other hand, making poor decisions (A fancy new car with a big loan early-on, an apartment for 25% more money than you should be spending because it's on the right street, every shiny new electronic bauble has to be yours, you won't take an entry-level job that might become something because it pays 10% less than the dead-end job you have now, etc.) will usually bite you in the ass.


These are not the kinds of things keeping people poor. These are the kinds of things people who aren't so bad off do that keep them living paycheck to paycheck. This is, however, the kind of attitude that denies the poor the help they need. But go ahead, keep being one of those simpering morons who think a cable TV subscription is the only thing holding people back.
 
2013-07-16 11:17:50 AM
bbfreak:So be born rich?

It's definitely easier that way.  But not everybody who has a decent life had everything handed to them.  My parents started out extremely poor and ended up with a nice middle-class life.

They had six kids, so while they did their best to help, they couldn't just hand each of us our futures and we each had to make our own way.  Now the six of us have a very wide range of "financial success," from one sibling that lives paycheck to paycheck and is looking for a very cheap place to live where he can take care of his two kids to another sibling with a beautiful house outside of NYC, a big "retreat" in Connecticut and who frequently travels internationally.

I also know people that had wealthy parents who are having a hard time.  Granted, their "hard time" would be much, much worse if they didn't have their parents propping them up, but they seem to squander every opportunity afforded to them.  They are in a worse spot than their parents and their kids are on track to have extremely hard lives.
 
2013-07-16 11:29:48 AM

jst3p: jake3988: E) Food needs to be represented only if it's not free to eat during your shift at McD's, which I certainly hope it is. If it is and you work 40 hours a week... that's... virtually every meal which is why it's not represented here.

Mostly decent advice, but when I worked food service (a long time ago) you got on meal at half price per shift worked. That was fairly standard (all the soda you wanted if you used your own cup).

If the listed budget were my budget I would say screw the second job and get on SNAP, I am pretty sure that income would qualify. Back in the day I had to get three part time jobs to get to 50 hours. Babbages, Blockbuster and a sandwich shop.


and what all these "get a second Job" folks fail to address is what you don when Your MC D's manager comes to you and tells that "so sorry, But Joe called in sick so you'll have to cover his shift on the grill tonight"  That kinda thin is notoriously common in the minimum wage world, and managers  tend to consider saying "no" to such requests insubordination and a firing offense even if it is to go work another jon
 
2013-07-16 11:34:08 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: Parkanzky: On the other hand, making poor decisions (A fancy new car with a big loan early-on, an apartment for 25% more money than you should be spending because it's on the right street, every shiny new electronic bauble has to be yours, you won't take an entry-level job that might become something because it pays 10% less than the dead-end job you have now, etc.) will usually bite you in the ass.

These are not the kinds of things keeping people poor. These are the kinds of things people who aren't so bad off do that keep them living paycheck to paycheck. This is, however, the kind of attitude that denies the poor the help they need. But go ahead, keep being one of those simpering morons who think a cable TV subscription is the only thing holding people back.


It's also the kind of thing that can make someone poor.  Even a tiny buffer can make a huge difference.  Living paycheck to paycheck means that if you have a minor financial crisis, you're likely to get hit with some late fees and interest.  So the minor crisis can cost you way more than it should have.

I know that that is reality for some people who are truly scraping to get by and living on the minimum.  But if someone has a $120 cable bill and their car battery dies and it costs $120 to get a jump and a new battery then they can end up paying a late fee on one of their bills because they don't have that extra $120 to spend.  So now the dead battery costs $170 or so because they pay for the incident and another $50 for a late fee to whomever they opt not to pay on time.  Now their budget is $170 behind and that could very well spiral into more late fees and interest payments.  I know plenty of people that would say they can afford the $120 cable bill because they make that much money but they're assuming that they'll never need that money for something else.  I have an "unexpected" expense of some kind almost every month.  It's really important to just expect to have to spend a bit of money you didn't plan to.  And again, I know that there are people that are truly suffering out there.  Working as hard as they can, doing without and still not making ends meet.  I want to see those people get help.

And the cable bill is just an example.  I don't think for a second that it usually boils down to any one decision or expense.  On the other hand, those little luxuries add up and speak to an attitude toward money (and forsight) that doesn't bode well.

Personally, I think that attitude and ambition have a lot more to do with success than scrimping.  Keeping expenses low can be key to weathering the inevitable storms, but it's more important to be looking for the next opportunity and positioning yourself to take advantage of it.  Short term pain for long term gain.
 
2013-07-16 11:55:05 AM

Goimir: mr lawson: Goimir: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job

I've got 10 years experience as a welder, 3 years as a commercial electrician, 1 year project management experience.  Willing to relocate.

EIP.

http://nd.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=welder&zoomToPosting=&srchT y pe=A">http://nd.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=welder&zoomToPosting= &srchTy pe=A

Six posts this month on Craigslist, one is by a person (miscatagorized) looking for work.

One that reads $22/hr, others posting a wide salary range which means they'll hire you on at $14-$15/hr and "see how you work out" as they don't **need** someone who's a $20/hr welder, but would like to hook one in and get a year or so out of him by stringing him along with the promise of more money.  In reality, they'll be happy to hire a kid out of votech and biatch at him for not being like the guy who was forced into an early retirement because they were paying him $25/hr even though he was worth every cent of it.  "Competitive" means $10/hr, always.  Every.  Single.  Time.

No, if you're going to tell people that if they only had a trade they could get a decent job, have a decent job to offer.  Put up or shut up.  I know how to use craigslist.  I've gotten quite a few jobs off of craigslist.  Usually they're startups or other cash-strapped companies who can't afford an actual ad, or they're looking for something so specific that a newspaper classified isn't going to reach enough people to get a response.

/very jaded
//actually thinking about saying "fark welding" and being a musician instead


sorry...was not trying to be condescending. I was up there for a few days and companies were looking for either drivers or welders.  Just thought I would pass it along.
with that said....being a musician is a hell of a lot of fun but not great pay...but FREE BEER!
 
2013-07-16 12:12:23 PM

Stone Meadow: BarkingUnicorn: No farking way a front-line McD's worker has $800 left over at the end of a month.

That's not what it says. The $800 is for buying food and clothing, putting gas in the POS car one is buying on $150/mo, paying for season's tickets to the Raiders, etc.


And there's no farking way a McD's worker has $800 left for all of that, either.
 
2013-07-16 01:01:46 PM

Parkanzky: Short term pain for long term gain.


It's not like you'll find many who disagree with the basic premise. It's just that the pain is increasing while the gains lessening, unless of course you're already on top, where it's the inverse.
You speak of looking for the next opportunity? What is that? Going to college or getting certified for a specific field or skill? Moving to where there might be work? Taking a lower paying job on the chance it will lead to more gainful employment?

On its face, these aren't bad ideas, but looking into the reality of them in today's environment presents fleeting opportunity.
College costs are increasing at an astoundingly stupid rate, and no degree or certification seems to be safe from being outsourced or offshored, and there's the constant specter of needing specific experience in the field before you'll even be considered for entry level. What is there to do about getting a degree no job in the field would pay for? What is there to do for getting certifications and skills that cost money, but employers don't think is justification for a pay raise?
Moving is unattractive unless you already have a job lined up, and with housing prices and rental prices on the rise, not to mention just the price of moving itself, makes this a tenuous prospect. Furthermore, it's a scary thing to uproot yourself, and maybe your family, for a new place absent the safety net of your friends and other loved ones. The idea of being penniless in a strange place and penniless in your home town leaves some people more sedentary.
Taking a lower paying job with the hopes of something better, later? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Anymore, that just seems like a way for employers to string you along for as long as possible for peanuts. I took an internship in hopes it would lead to a better job. Worked my ass off for six months, worked another job on the side to pay the bills. I did get a permanent position.... only to have the entire department outsourced two months later. I've known folks stuck in the temp to perm bullshiat for years, and when they threaten their employer with quitting, the employer invariably shows them the door. There's cheaper workers out there whether you're high skill or low skill.

No, on it's face, no pain no gain is a good standard. Applying it to today's job market is a harsh lesson in risk vs. reward.
 
2013-07-16 01:41:32 PM

Goimir: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job

I've got 10 years experience as a welder, 3 years as a commercial electrician, 1 year project management experience.  Willing to relocate.

EIP.



but you don't live in communist china.  big problem.   and you want health insurance.  chop chop!
 
2013-07-16 01:48:19 PM

BarkingUnicorn: Stone Meadow: BarkingUnicorn: No farking way a front-line McD's worker has $800 left over at the end of a month.

That's not what it says. The $800 is for buying food and clothing, putting gas in the POS car one is buying on $150/mo, paying for season's tickets to the Raiders, etc.

And there's no farking way a McD's worker has $800 left for all of that, either.


Of course not. I was just riffing off TFA where is says 'you can have anything you want if you'll save up for it'.
 
2013-07-16 01:50:07 PM

Garet Garrett: Newsflash:  Working at McDonald's is not a recipe for having a prosperous, independent life with your own apartment, car, and cable tv.


but it WILL make Mcdonald's stockholders and brass very happy!
 
2013-07-16 02:54:31 PM
To everyone who has said, "just get a job at the factory...just get a better job than burger flipping....just move to a better area"

Get a dose of reality. Job availability varies hugely by region, and many poor people don't dare move to a place where they don't know anybody to look for a better job - they're one mishap away from being homeless.

I've lived in places (and do right now) where there's pretty much nothing but minimum wage jobs, unless you have very specific skills (such as IT). Every restaurant and grocery store job has a line of applicants with a college degree - plenty of my friends work in these, or are managers at these places.

Even many skilled jobs pay horribly. The people who provided physical therapy for my broken shoulder were getting $12 an hour.  The x-ray tech at my doctor's makes $14 an hour. These are jobs with four year degrees. And they really aren't going to ever do any better.

I guess in some magical fairy land they could save up and move to a place with better jobs, but scraping together enough of a cushion to do that is incredibly hard. And moving some place where no one knows you is dangerous. When I finished my bachelors, I had an offer of a full tuition scholarship for graduate school at a top school on the east coast.  I turned it down - I was terrified that a couple of missed paychecks from whatever part-time jobs I'd be working, and I'd be out on the street.
 
2013-07-16 03:07:20 PM
Because it is McDonalds fault that these people dropped out of highschool and are only capable of flipping a burger for the rest of their lives.  And thanks to Obamacare most places are getting rid of full time employees and making everyone part time.  Democrats don't know shiat about economics. I still remember when I was getting my degree in economics and all the liberals dropped out one by one as they couldn't face the fact that their dogma didn't match reality.  Also showed they rather stay ignorant then educate themselves - probably why they all work at McDonalds.
 
2013-07-16 04:18:48 PM

lordaction: Because it is McDonalds fault that these people dropped out of highschool and are only capable of flipping a burger for the rest of their lives.  And thanks to Obamacare most places are getting rid of full time employees and making everyone part time.  Democrats don't know shiat about economics. I still remember when I was getting my degree in economics and all the liberals dropped out one by one as they couldn't face the fact that their dogma didn't match reality.  Also showed they rather stay ignorant then educate themselves - probably why they all work at McDonalds.


Are you really that stupid, or are you just trolling? Its hard to tell. You make a lot of assumptions about poor people. Also the idea that we had it so good before Obamacare is ridiculous. Its at best a step in the right direction, because a healthier population leads to a healthier society. Shocking I know.

I bet you also believe Union's killed jobs too. Union's aren't perfect, and certainly have their problems but employers shockingly don't stand up for their employees on their own. Take Walmart, its the biggest company in the country and yet it squeezes its employees/suppliers to the breaking point. Not only that, it encourages everyone else to run their business like Walmart in a consumer economy like ours since they have so much leverage.

Income inequality is bad for America, having a degree in economics you might realize that. People can't spend money that they don't have it. Especially important in a consumer economy.
 
2013-07-16 04:27:28 PM

bbfreak: lordaction: Because it is McDonalds fault that these people dropped out of highschool and are only capable of flipping a burger for the rest of their lives.  And thanks to Obamacare most places are getting rid of full time employees and making everyone part time.  Democrats don't know shiat about economics. I still remember when I was getting my degree in economics and all the liberals dropped out one by one as they couldn't face the fact that their dogma didn't match reality.  Also showed they rather stay ignorant then educate themselves - probably why they all work at McDonalds.

Are you really that stupid, or are you just trolling? Its hard to tell. You make a lot of assumptions about poor people. Also the idea that we had it so good before Obamacare is ridiculous. Its at best a step in the right direction, because a healthier population leads to a healthier society. Shocking I know.

I bet you also believe Union's killed jobs too. Union's aren't perfect, and certainly have their problems but employers shockingly don't stand up for their employees on their own. Take Walmart, its the biggest company in the country and yet it squeezes its employees/suppliers to the breaking point. Not only that, it encourages everyone else to run their business like Walmart in a consumer economy like ours since they have so much leverage.

Income inequality is bad for America, having a degree in economics you might realize that. People can't spend money that they don't have it. Especially important in a consumer economy.


Actually, I agree with pretty much everything  you said except that Obamacare was a step in the right direction.  I'm a big fan of measure twice cut once.
 
2013-07-16 04:47:15 PM

MisterRonbo: I guess in some magical fairy land they could save up and move to a place with better jobs, but scraping together enough of a cushion to do that is incredibly hard. And moving some place where no one knows you is dangerous. When I finished my bachelors, I had an offer of a full tuition scholarship for graduate school at a top school on the east coast. I turned it down - I was terrified that a couple of missed paychecks from whatever part-time jobs I'd be working, and I'd be out on the street.


I moved away for college and then moved out of state for graduate school.  I didn't know anybody where I went to college, although I did end up in the same department as somebody I went to undergrad with when I went to grad school (although just by chance).  It's not like he'd have payed my rent for me if I fell on hard times.

Being too scared that something bad might happen to follow opportunities is your call, of course, but you're obviously limiting your options.
 
2013-07-16 05:17:53 PM

Parkanzky: I moved away for college and then moved out of state for graduate school. I didn't know anybody where I went to college, although I did end up in the same department as somebody I went to undergrad with when I went to grad school (although just by chance). It's not like he'd have payed my rent for me if I fell on hard times.

Being too scared that something bad might happen to follow opportunities is your call, of course, but you're obviously limiting your options.


Let me guess - you had family that would have loaned you money if you were on the verge of being homeless.

And of course everybody has that, right?

Seriously, think for a minute about how hard some people have it. Is it that damn hard for you to do? Imagine you're a kid from a screwed up background, you spent your childhood bounced from home to home, and you have no family or the ones you have are so farked up that they're trying to get money off of you.

Now you get an opportunity that's three thousand miles from anyone you know, and the tuition (at a really good, really expensive school) is 100% free in exchange for duties that will keep you busy one or two evenings a week plus some weekends. Great deal!

But you have maybe $500 to your name, and you're terrified of ending up homeless.

Is that so hard to fit in to your world? Really? If so, you're astoundingly close-minded or you're another Romney who thinks everyone can just fall back on mommy and daddy.

So either you're clueless or obtuse. Which is it?
 
2013-07-16 05:22:14 PM

Goimir: Alonjar: Goimir: //actually thinking about saying "fark welding" and being a musician instead

Join a welders union and be willing to move, is my only advice for that field.  I know welders who make a fark ton of money doing construction welding.

I know welders who have joined the union and got screwed.  They work about 20 hours a week and about three weeks a month.  The only union welders I know that make any money are guys I've met in bars in their fifties who have been in the union for 20 years and thus have enough seniority to actually work "union full time", which is to say 6 months on at $35/hr, 6 months collecting unemployment.


Come to Alberta, welders make party good money on the oil fields.
 
2013-07-16 05:52:19 PM

change1211: Goimir: Alonjar: Goimir: //actually thinking about saying "fark welding" and being a musician instead

Join a welders union and be willing to move, is my only advice for that field.  I know welders who make a fark ton of money doing construction welding.

I know welders who have joined the union and got screwed.  They work about 20 hours a week and about three weeks a month.  The only union welders I know that make any money are guys I've met in bars in their fifties who have been in the union for 20 years and thus have enough seniority to actually work "union full time", which is to say 6 months on at $35/hr, 6 months collecting unemployment.

Come to Alberta, welders make party good money on the oil fields.


I didn't realize intenational relocation was my best bet
 
2013-07-16 06:10:15 PM

Parkanzky: It's both.  People that say "You make your own luck" are often right.  Hard work and persistence usually pay off.  On the other hand, making poor decisions (A fancy new car with a big loan early-on, an apartment for 25% more money than you should be spending because it's on the right street, every shiny new electronic bauble has to be yours, you won't take an entry-level job that might become something because it pays 10% less than the dead-end job you have now, etc.) will usually bite you in the ass.


And what about those of us who work hard and persist *and* abstain from unnecessary expenses, but things just plain don't go our way? I could tell you my tale of woe, but it would take too long and it would make me cry, and after the day I just had at work I really need to chill out, not obsess over how thanks to the recession and several random factors beyond my control I've lost all the ground I gained in my 30s, not to mention all of my savings and all of my furniture, and am now just as broke as I was when I started my career, only I'm working twice as hard at a shiattier job for less than half as much money.

I've worked my ass off my whole life. I'm one of the biggest cheapskates you'll ever meet. I bootstrapped myself into a lucrative career without even having gone to college through sheer determination and chutzpah, and for ten years, had nothing but one success after another. Then the tech market crashed, and here I am, basically right back where I started only older and tireder and much, much more cynical. I have no credit cards to max out; no one will give me credit. I have no family to fall back on. I'm working without a net here, and I'm hanging on by my fingernails. So don't you DARE think you know a goddamned thing about my circumstances and how I got here, you arrogant, self-righteous piece of shiat.
 
2013-07-16 06:17:54 PM

ongbok: Waldo Pepper: xynix: Gosh.. That's pretty much what I did when I was starting out on my career. 80 hour work weeks are good for the character. Except for a few months I turned off my electricity and gas entirely to save up for my first house. Who needs electricity when you're working all the time? It's just a place to lay a head until the next work day. I lived in a slum.. a $300 a month one room apartment. I didn't have a car payment as I had saved up enough working at Chuck E Cheese when I was 16-17 to buy a decent Toyota that lasted me until I was 22 or so.

For people who expect shiat to land on their lap then yes.. this would be a terrible budget. For a person who wore the same pair of jeans / shoes / shirts for 4 or 5 years while I was bootstrapping this is a completely logical and well thought out budget.

5 years in the same pair of shoes, doubtful you did much standing or walking in said shoes.

He is either lying or he "thinks" he actually did this. You see these types all of the time, the type that in their own mind thought they had everything as hard as the real working poor, but if you actually drill down to it you will find out they weren't anywhere near working for minimum wage or if they were, they had all types of financial help from family.


I worked hard. Not as hard as the working poor often do, but hard. Full credit load and fifty hours a week. Saved money, lived frugally enough that other people at my level made fun of me. shiatty old clothes. A pair of shoes a year. No AC. Minimized my heating.

In addition I had the head start of saving for a decemt car in high school: using my parents resources like their car to make it possible. This meant not calling late to work because I wasn't stuck with a beater. It meant a good high school and a resources to live near work and college (saving some twenty hours a week over many), etc.

It meant that not only did I have a decent ability to save, but that I had a second safety net if shiat fell to pieces. Knowing I had the savings to say fark it if I snapped under pressure was what allowed me to bear the pressure in the first place. Being able to bear that pressure made a future more easy to work towards, and it has gotten better every year.

I doubt I would be anywhere close to where I am today if I was born into poverty in a bad neighborhood. That doesn't mean I can logically approve of the many bad financial decisions of individual poor people, but it isn't hard to see why they are made.

It is a hell of a lot harder to scrimp and save if you are one illness, car breakdown, etc. from square one. I was never in that position, and lucky for it.
 
2013-07-16 06:19:02 PM

buzzcut73: jake3988: whistleridge * * Smartest * Funniest 2013-07-15 05:39:28 PM Said budget: Highlights: * it expects you to work 80 hours per week * it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance * the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well * it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense * it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has
===============================================================

Actually, it's quite accurate.

A) If heating/gas is 0 that means it's an apartment, so 90 for electric is absurdly high unless you live in a desert. I usually hit 90 only in July and only because my apartment faces west and has horrendously thin windows. Usually I average $25-30.

I've rented my whole adult life, and only one place (student family housing) covered the heat/gas bill. Everywhere else was individually metered. Where do you live that the landlord pays the gas bill?


All of my apts in michigan have.
 
2013-07-16 06:23:07 PM
Oh, and fyi folks on the 'beater' thing: a beater is often going to end up more expensive than a decent car. If you don't have a pocket mechainic and a buddy who can tow you, shiat gets pricy fast.
 
2013-07-16 06:27:17 PM

Smackledorfer: It meant that not only did I have a decent ability to save, but that I had a second safety net if shiat fell to pieces. Knowing I had the savings to say fark it if I snapped under pressure was what allowed me to bear the pressure in the first place. Being able to bear that pressure made a future more easy to work towards, and it has gotten better every year.


I don't think there's a better argument for a safety net. A stable base to work from and the peace of mind to work harder, knowing you won't lose everything if you fail.
 
2013-07-16 06:33:43 PM
Last point for now: intermediate job vs. career.

I see this shiat said all the time.
Just what percent of American jobs do you farkers think are career quality? What percent of employed Americans do you think should be in those jobs at any given time?

Answer those, then look at wage breakdowns. I think you may find it impossible for everyone you believe ought to have a career to actually have one.

How about since the world needs ditch diggers we tweak our section of the world so that ditchdiggers can live decently, instead of getting jealous of their refridgerator possession rates?
 
2013-07-16 07:20:40 PM

Koodz: 80 hours a week, eh?  Because two businesses are going to hire you at exactly full time with non-overlapping schedules and you'll teleport from one to the other.

Hell, these days 80 hours is like four jobs on opposite ends of town.  You'd probably devote well over 100 hours a week trying to keep up with the commutes and uniform changes.  Forget about sleep.  You haven't earned sleep yet.


Yeah, it'd be interesting to see if it's actually possible for anyone to get two full-time minimum-wage jobs and keep them for, say, a year. You could definitely get two almost-30 hours-per-week jobs (or almost-25, or whatever the relevant benefits cutoff is in your state), and IF they were physically close to one another, and IF they were both the sorts of job where there was never really any variation in the hours, and IF nothing beyond your control went wrong, you could do it.

But it'd be a hell of a trick to even get  hired for two full-time minimum-wage jobs with totally separate schedules.

/yes, bootstrappers, I know, you actually worked three of them at a time, back when you were first grasping your bootstraps
 
2013-07-16 07:29:46 PM

Goimir: I didn't realize intenational relocation was my best bet


you can also go to the shipyards
 
2013-07-16 07:46:33 PM

mikefinch: inclemency: This argument is coming down to a disturbing fact. Most people think that subsistence is adequate. A meritocracy is not an issue.

Not to mention recent studies have been showing that all that 'grit your teeth and bootstrap up' doesnt work and has massive detrimental effects on your health.

Whats the point of being disturbingly cheap and working yourself half to death every day? So that you can wake up tomorrow and do it all over again? Where does it get you?Whats the point of doing it all to just have to do it all over again? Sounds like a horror story to me. Work today so you can survive to work tomorrow. When you cant work any more pray you qualify for government assistance or that you have people who love you and are willing to take care of you.

If i learned anything today its that the farker 'wall of shiat' is probly a psychopath. Seriously dude -- empathy. You need some. You sound like Dennis on "its always sunny". Just... terrible. Just a terrible human being.


My FIL is grateful to have gotten total disability through the VA for his Agent Orange exposure. It's more money than he's ever made working. He is not well off; he's just no longer working to be poor.
 
2013-07-16 07:53:04 PM

MisterRonbo: To everyone who has said, "just get a job at the factory...just get a better job than burger flipping....just move to a better area"

Get a dose of reality. Job availability varies hugely by region, and many poor people don't dare move to a place where they don't know anybody to look for a better job - they're one mishap away from being homeless.

I've lived in places (and do right now) where there's pretty much nothing but minimum wage jobs, unless you have very specific skills (such as IT). Every restaurant and grocery store job has a line of applicants with a college degree - plenty of my friends work in these, or are managers at these places.

Even many skilled jobs pay horribly. The people who provided physical therapy for my broken shoulder were getting $12 an hour.  The x-ray tech at my doctor's makes $14 an hour. These are jobs with four year degrees. And they really aren't going to ever do any better.

I guess in some magical fairy land they could save up and move to a place with better jobs, but scraping together enough of a cushion to do that is incredibly hard. And moving some place where no one knows you is dangerous. When I finished my bachelors, I had an offer of a full tuition scholarship for graduate school at a top school on the east coast.  I turned it down - I was terrified that a couple of missed paychecks from whatever part-time jobs I'd be working, and I'd be out on the street.


I have a coworker with a Ph. D who works with me at the call center. We make $12 an hour (that's AFTER that first annual review with a raise). I make half what I made at my first job out of college, my health insurance is $360/month (I'm paying for my spouse's as well), and I'm falling further and further behind.
 
2013-07-16 09:15:06 PM

atomic-age: I have a coworker with a Ph. D who works with me at the call center. We make $12 an hour (that's AFTER that first annual review with a raise). I make half what I made at my first job out of college, my health insurance is $360/month (I'm paying for my spouse's as well), and I'm falling further and further behind.


At least you have a behind to fall to.  If I lose my job I have about 2 days to find another one if it pays as much, and a day if it pays a buck or two less an hour.  Otherwise I lose either my phone or my vehicle.  Probably the vehicle, as I can get by without a car.
 
2013-07-16 09:19:02 PM

MisterRonbo: Parkanzky: I moved away for college and then moved out of state for graduate school. I didn't know anybody where I went to college, although I did end up in the same department as somebody I went to undergrad with when I went to grad school (although just by chance). It's not like he'd have payed my rent for me if I fell on hard times.

Being too scared that something bad might happen to follow opportunities is your call, of course, but you're obviously limiting your options.

Let me guess - you had family that would have loaned you money if you were on the verge of being homeless.

And of course everybody has that, right?

Seriously, think for a minute about how hard some people have it. Is it that damn hard for you to do? Imagine you're a kid from a screwed up background, you spent your childhood bounced from home to home, and you have no family or the ones you have are so farked up that they're trying to get money off of you.

Now you get an opportunity that's three thousand miles from anyone you know, and the tuition (at a really good, really expensive school) is 100% free in exchange for duties that will keep you busy one or two evenings a week plus some weekends. Great deal!

But you have maybe $500 to your name, and you're terrified of ending up homeless.

Is that so hard to fit in to your world? Really? If so, you're astoundingly close-minded or you're another Romney who thinks everyone can just fall back on mommy and daddy.

So either you're clueless or obtuse. Which is it?


So what do you propose? That the poor never risk failure and just accept their stations? You're quite the champion of the under-privileged.
 
2013-07-16 09:21:07 PM

Lawnchair: It's also worth pointing out that "work a second job" in and of itself is become more of a pipedream.  According to Labor Dept. numbers, we have record numbers in part-time jobs, but the number of people working more than one job is actually going down.

That is because larger employers are using the same basic computer models that give you 'just in time' supplies to schedule working hours.  "We need you 3 hours Monday, 7 on Tuesday, 6 on Thursday, 7 on Saturday... but next week will be totally different".  Making working a second job (and finding child care, etc) farking impossible.


Best part is that those models produce schedules that are demonstrably awful for business. One of my coworkers moonlights as a grocery store manager. It was her 'career' before she came on board, and she now does it one Saturday a month just to stay on payroll because she rightfully doesn't trust our corporate overlords not to cut her (we're in IT and she's a contractor). Her store was full of biatching and pissing and moaning about the schedule, and turnover was through the roof. So she started taking the time to sit down for an hour or two and work out a schedule by hand once a week and, guess what - she had to keep fewer staff on payroll, paid less for staff overall, morale was very high, and turnover dropped to the lowest level anywhere in the chain. It stayed that way for YEARS, with a surprisingly static staff. When she "left" that all went back to being done by the computer and everything reverted to the normal grocery store constant-turnover chaos.
 
2013-07-16 09:28:40 PM

gglibertine: Parkanzky: It's both.  People that say "You make your own luck" are often right.  Hard work and persistence usually pay off.  On the other hand, making poor decisions (A fancy new car with a big loan early-on, an apartment for 25% more money than you should be spending because it's on the right street, every shiny new electronic bauble has to be yours, you won't take an entry-level job that might become something because it pays 10% less than the dead-end job you have now, etc.) will usually bite you in the ass.

And what about those of us who work hard and persist *and* abstain from unnecessary expenses, but things just plain don't go our way? I could tell you my tale of woe, but it would take too long and it would make me cry, and after the day I just had at work I really need to chill out, not obsess over how thanks to the recession and several random factors beyond my control I've lost all the ground I gained in my 30s, not to mention all of my savings and all of my furniture, and am now just as broke as I was when I started my career, only I'm working twice as hard at a shiattier job for less than half as much money.

I've worked my ass off my whole life. I'm one of the biggest cheapskates you'll ever meet. I bootstrapped myself into a lucrative career without even having gone to college through sheer determination and chutzpah, and for ten years, had nothing but one success after another. Then the tech market crashed, and here I am, basically right back where I started only older and tireder and much, much more cynical. I have no credit cards to max out; no one will give me credit. I have no family to fall back on. I'm working without a net here, and I'm hanging on by my fingernails. So don't you DARE think you know a goddamned thing about my circumstances and how I got here, you arrogant, self-righteous piece of shiat.


Reread my posts. I said that some people do everything right and it doesn't work out for them, and there should be mechanisms in place to help those people. I made it clear that the bigots on both sides, speaking in absolutes, are wrong for different reasons.

All the responses to my posts pick out anything that sounds boot-strappy, because Fark loves to white-knight for the under-privileged. But I am definitely not saying that poor people are poor because they are lazy and deserve it and that they'd get their house, two cars, 2.5 kids and a dog if they would just apply themselves.

But go ahead, call me names if it makes you feel better.
 
2013-07-16 09:39:28 PM

LL316: Health insurance?  My family was in that middle ground...too "rich" for financial aid, too poor to actually send me to a university.  So they stopped claiming me on their taxes, which eventually led to me being able to apply for financial aid without their income.  But this booted me off their health insurance.  I went a 7 years (5 undergrad (shut up), 2 grad) without it.  Bfd.  Get sick?  Drink juice.  It's called making sacrifices in order to better yourself.  Could something terrible have happened?  Of course.  But the odds were against it.


Your parents are shiatty for not planning for and paying for your education.
 
2013-07-16 09:48:18 PM

Parkanzky: But I am definitely not saying that poor people are poor because they are lazy and deserve it and that they'd get their house, two cars, 2.5 kids and a dog if they would just apply themselves.


Uh... yeah you are. That's exactly the argument you're making.

Parkanzky: No. They work the "intermediate job" until they can make something better happen. Not wait for something better to come along, but actually make a plan and work toward something better. And if that doesn't work out, then make another plan.

Seriously, the time to go interview somewhere? If your excuse is that you can't buy a pair of khakis and a button-down shirt from Goodwill and make a few hours to go to an interview, then you're exactly the person I'm talking about in my previous post.

If you get a temp job in manufacturing here, you'll make more than you do at McDonalds. It's a super-easy job to get. If you demonstrate that you're a good worker, you'll get a "permanent" job here. There's no guarantee, and it won't happen overnight, but we hire basically all of our manufacturing staff that way. So what's better? Work at McDonalds forever for $8.25/hr or call Manpower, get a temp job in one of the manufacturing plants here that pays more than that with the hopes of ending up with a really solid job before your temp contract expires? But by your logic, you don't have time to show up for the interview to get that temp job. Weak sauce.

 
2013-07-16 10:10:37 PM
Nonsense.

I'm saying that if you want things to get better, you've got to try.  But that doesn't necessarily guarantee success.  There's a huge opportunity gap in the world right now (not just in the US).  If you're born poor, you're likely to stay poor.  That's unfortunate, but it's also a fact.  However, some people do "better" than their parents did.  We should try to understand how families go from being poor to prosperous over the course of a few generations.  Instead, it sounds like most of you want just accept that society/luck/the man/etc. keep the poor down and there's nothing that can be done.  I don't buy that defeatist mindset.

Unfortunately, when people show up and explain how they went from beingpoor to middle class, nobody believes it's possible.  It's "b-b-b-b-but you must have had a rich parent help you!" or "you must be white!" or "nothing bad ever happened to you!" or "Not in this economy!"  Instead, if you're not doing as well as you'd like, try listening to those people and seeing if there's a lesson you can take from it.  There might just be something worth trying.  I don't think it does any good to just say, "I'm poor and I'll always be poor an there's nothing I could ever do about it so I won't try."  And that sounds exactly like the sort of advice somebody saying it's not worth taking risks to do better would give.

But go ahead and feel like you've really taught me a lesson.  I'd rather you actually present a solution to the problem though, instead of just pissing in everybody else's store-brand Cheerios.
 
2013-07-16 10:46:23 PM

Parkanzky: Unfortunately, when people show up and explain how they went from beingpoor to middle class, nobody believes it's possible.


Untrue. We are pointing out that it's increasingly an outlier and "Work harder! Never give up!" is not an actual solution, just good advice. And in this specific case, McDonald's wages, it is near enough an outright impossibility with the numbers being spewed.

Parkanzky: I don't think it does any good to just say, "I'm poor and I'll always be poor an there's nothing I could ever do about it so I won't try." And that sounds exactly like the sort of advice somebody saying it's not worth taking risks to do better would give.


No one says that either. They the opportunities aren't so easy to seize and the cost of failure isn't worth the risk. "Take risks!" isn't a solution either, just good advice.

Parkanzky: But go ahead and feel like you've really taught me a lesson.


I'd have to believe you were reading our arguments for that. Instead you're walking back the "the poors are so lazy, they should cancel their cable and work as temps" bootstrappiness from your earlier posts.
 
2013-07-17 01:21:55 AM

12349876: DrPainMD: If you're a low-wage McDonald's worker, and you're not a teenager living with your parents, you're doing it wrong.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that seven out of 10 growth occupations over the next decade will be low-wage fields. And these jobs are not being done by teenagers. Across the country, the median age of fast-food workers is over 28, and women -- who make up two-thirds of the industry -- are over 32, according to the BLS.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/11/mcjobs-should-pa y- too-inside-fast-food-workers-historic-protest-for-living-wages/265714/


So, what you're saying is that a lot of people are doing it wrong.
 
2013-07-17 02:28:21 AM

DrPainMD: So, what you're saying is that a lot of people are doing it wrong.


You're no longer even remotely interesting...
 
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