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(Think Progress)   Spiffy: McDonald's helps full-time, low-wage workers fill out a budget. Asinine: By suggesting workers spend $20 a month for health insurance, shut off their heating, live in a slum, and find another full-time, low-wage job to supplement income   (thinkprogress.org ) divider line 201
    More: Asinine, McDonalds, wage workers, fast food restaurants  
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3088 clicks; posted to Business » on 15 Jul 2013 at 6:19 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-15 05:39:28 PM  
Said budget:

thinkprogress.org

Highlights:

* it expects you to work 80 hours per week
* it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance
* the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well
* it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense
* it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has
 
2013-07-15 05:51:51 PM  
Gosh.. That's pretty much what I did when I was starting out on my career. 80 hour work weeks are good for the character. Except for a few months I turned off my electricity and gas entirely to save up for my first house. Who needs electricity when you're working all the time? It's just a place to lay a head until the next work day. I lived in a slum.. a $300 a month one room apartment. I didn't have a car payment as I had saved up enough working at Chuck E Cheese when I was 16-17 to buy a decent Toyota that lasted me until I was 22 or so.

For people who expect shiat to land on their lap then yes.. this would be a terrible budget. For a person who wore the same pair of jeans / shoes / shirts for 4 or 5 years while I was bootstrapping this is a completely logical and well thought out budget.
 
2013-07-15 05:51:57 PM  
They forgot to budget in the cost of the refrigerator.

99.6 percent of so called "poor" households have a refrigerator.
 
2013-07-15 06:00:48 PM  

whistleridge: Said budget:

[thinkprogress.org image 467x588]

Highlights:

* it expects you to work 80 hours per week
* it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance
* the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well
* it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense
* it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has


How cute that it thinks folks who are struggling to make ends meet will have $800 to kick around during the month.
 
2013-07-15 06:03:26 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: whistleridge: Said budget:

[thinkprogress.org image 467x588]

Highlights:

* it expects you to work 80 hours per week
* it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance
* the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well
* it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense
* it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has

How cute that it thinks folks who are struggling to make ends meet will have $800 to kick around during the month.


And that they will never get tired, sick, have the car break, or have any other emergency expenses.

Why do I suspect that the person who made this budget makes $50k+, gets paid vacation, and doesn't even think about working 80 hours a week?
 
2013-07-15 06:08:36 PM  

vernonFL: They forgot to budget in the cost of the refrigerator.

99.6 percent of so called "poor" households have a refrigerator.


No, they assumed their slumlord would have provided one.
 
2013-07-15 06:23:33 PM  
 
2013-07-15 06:30:39 PM  

xynix: Gosh.. That's pretty much what I did when I was starting out on my career. 80 hour work weeks are good for the character. Except for a few months I turned off my electricity and gas entirely to save up for my first house. Who needs electricity when you're working all the time? It's just a place to lay a head until the next work day. I lived in a slum.. a $300 a month one room apartment. I didn't have a car payment as I had saved up enough working at Chuck E Cheese when I was 16-17 to buy a decent Toyota that lasted me until I was 22 or so.

For people who expect shiat to land on their lap then yes.. this would be a terrible budget. For a person who wore the same pair of jeans / shoes / shirts for 4 or 5 years while I was bootstrapping this is a completely logical and well thought out budget.


Were you living at home with mom and Dad when you worked at Chucky Cheese? I mean you were only 16.

Do you realize how lucky you were that nothing went wrong during that time period? That you didn't lose your job or had a horrible accident that prevented you from working. That the economy was in the tank so were it's difficult to get two jobs?  Or that the company you work for folded?

Or the fact that being white probably helped out?

People take risk and try things and more time than not, it doesn't work out.
 
2013-07-15 06:30:55 PM  

whistleridge: Said budget:

[thinkprogress.org image 467x588]

Highlights:

* it expects you to work 80 hours per week
* it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance
* the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well
* it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense
* it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has


And it also doesn't budget for shoes and clothing, laundry costs, gasoline, vehicle maintenance, medications, toiletries, and toilet paper.
 
2013-07-15 06:33:44 PM  
And zero savings, thereby ensuring you are trapped in that position forever.
 
2013-07-15 06:33:44 PM  

Lorelle: whistleridge: Said budget:

[thinkprogress.org image 467x588]

Highlights:

* it expects you to work 80 hours per week
* it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance
* the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well
* it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense
* it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has

And it also doesn't budget for shoes and clothing, laundry costs, gasoline, vehicle maintenance, medications, toiletries, and toilet paper.


Child support and rum.
 
2013-07-15 06:34:13 PM  
This budget doesn't account for pitchforks and torches either.
 
2013-07-15 06:35:18 PM  

whistleridge: * it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has


That would fall under "Cable/Phone - $100".
 
2013-07-15 06:40:45 PM  
If you're working a shiat job like McSleaze you shouldn't have a car payment.  Drive a beater until you can afford a real car.
 
2013-07-15 06:41:56 PM  
Health insurance?  My family was in that middle ground...too "rich" for financial aid, too poor to actually send me to a university.  So they stopped claiming me on their taxes, which eventually led to me being able to apply for financial aid without their income.  But this booted me off their health insurance.  I went a 7 years (5 undergrad (shut up), 2 grad) without it.  Bfd.  Get sick?  Drink juice.  It's called making sacrifices in order to better yourself.  Could something terrible have happened?  Of course.  But the odds were against it.
 
2013-07-15 06:43:13 PM  
It's also worth pointing out that "work a second job" in and of itself is become more of a pipedream.  According to Labor Dept. numbers, we have record numbers in part-time jobs, but the number of people working more than one job is actually going down.

That is because larger employers are using the same basic computer models that give you 'just in time' supplies to schedule working hours.  "We need you 3 hours Monday, 7 on Tuesday, 6 on Thursday, 7 on Saturday... but next week will be totally different".  Making working a second job (and finding child care, etc) farking impossible.
 
2013-07-15 06:49:08 PM  

Lost Thought 00: And zero savings, thereby ensuring you are trapped in that position forever.


First line $100 savings a month
 
2013-07-15 06:51:11 PM  
Welcome to America. Where if you're not working yourself to the bone and barely making ends meet, and teetering on the edge of catastrophe if god forbid you get into an accident or get sick, you're just not trying hard enough, citizen!
 
2013-07-15 06:51:49 PM  
Best I can figure.  But that savings will be gone as soon as the car breaks.

Income 1    700
Income 2    700
Total        1400

Savings        100
Rent        500    w/ Roommates
Car        150    ($7,500 for 5 yr at 7%)
Car Insurance    100
Health Ins.    53    (Obamacare)
Heating        25
Internet/Phone    72
Electric    20
Food        380
Total        1400

Oh and $3 for bootstraps.
 
2013-07-15 06:52:41 PM  

whistleridge: The My Little Pony Killer: whistleridge: Said budget:

[thinkprogress.org image 467x588]

Highlights:

* it expects you to work 80 hours per week
* it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance
* the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well
* it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense
* it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has

How cute that it thinks folks who are struggling to make ends meet will have $800 to kick around during the month.

And that they will never get tired, sick, have the car break, or have any other emergency expenses.

Why do I suspect that the person who made this budget makes $50k+, gets paid vacation, and doesn't even think about working 80 hours a week?


You don't budget for sick, tired, emergencies. Well you do, but that stuff is covered under savings.

You could have a separate line item for it, but if you are working two McJobs they are likely the same thing.
 
2013-07-15 06:54:16 PM  
When I was younger my health insurance was instructions to my friends:

"If you ever find me unconscious, throw me in my car and roll it into a tree."
 
2013-07-15 06:59:45 PM  
McDonalds is keeping Americans Free.

Free to live in poverty.
 
2013-07-15 06:59:52 PM  
If you're a low-wage McDonald's worker, and you're not a teenager living with your parents, you're doing it wrong.
 
2013-07-15 07:04:18 PM  
Look, dumbass, the CEO needs to buy another bucket of caviar. Do you think he's going to be able to do that if he pays his employees?
 
2013-07-15 07:06:04 PM  
when poverty level was first defined by a study of the slums of england.  It was a popular belief that the poor were poor because they were stupid and wasted their money on alcohol and frivolity.  The study later found that the populace was paid way below even the minimum to survive.  It found that a single sickness would leave a person homeless or in debtors prison.   Children were forced out of school and into unsafe jobs and whole families toiled away to remain below poverty level.

WEll, thank you so very much McDonalds....in your riteous arrogant "benevolent" randian personal responsibility act you went a proved the point of the left.   You assholes just went and demonstrated that you don't pay your workers enough and that the minimum wage is bollox.  Suck my fat c*** you fools, every last one of you.
 
2013-07-15 07:09:18 PM  
whistleridge * * Smartest * Funniest 2013-07-15 05:39:28 PM Said budget: Highlights: * it expects you to work 80 hours per week * it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance * the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well * it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense * it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has
===============================================================

Actually, it's quite accurate.

A) If heating/gas is 0 that means it's an apartment, so 90 for electric is absurdly high unless you live in a desert. I usually hit 90 only in July and only because my apartment faces west and has horrendously thin windows. Usually I average $25-30.

B) Car insurance at $100 a month is absurdly low? WTF car insurance do you have? Mine is $250 for 6 months.

C) Dump cable. Buy netflix and/or amazon prime and/or hulu. I've lived without it for 18 months.

D) Get on your parents cell phone plan (or a good friend if parents are not an option). I pay them $10/month (I don't carry data plan). No sense buying a $100 plan for yourself.

E) Food needs to be represented only if it's not free to eat during your shift at McD's, which I certainly hope it is. If it is and you work 40 hours a week... that's... virtually every meal which is why it's not represented here.

F) If you work 40 hours a week, you get health insurance from your company, hence why it's listed at $20/month. My health insurance is roughly that as I get it through work. Course, that's only for ME. It is quite low if it's for a family.

Car payment is about right too... if you work at mcd's... don't buy a car with a $300/month payment. If you do, you're an idiot. $150-$200 sounds just fine.
 
2013-07-15 07:17:01 PM  
highly unrealistic budget is highly unrealistic.
 
2013-07-15 07:17:17 PM  

jake3988: E) Food needs to be represented only if it's not free to eat during your shift at McD's, which I certainly hope it is. If it is and you work 40 hours a week... that's... virtually every meal which is why it's not represented here.


Mostly decent advice, but when I worked food service (a long time ago) you got on meal at half price per shift worked. That was fairly standard (all the soda you wanted if you used your own cup).

If the listed budget were my budget I would say screw the second job and get on SNAP, I am pretty sure that income would qualify. Back in the day I had to get three part time jobs to get to 50 hours. Babbages, Blockbuster and a sandwich shop.
 
2013-07-15 07:18:36 PM  

jake3988: whistleridge * * Smartest * Funniest 2013-07-15 05:39:28 PM Said budget: Highlights: * it expects you to work 80 hours per week * it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance * the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well * it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense * it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has
===============================================================

Actually, it's quite accurate.

A) If heating/gas is 0 that means it's an apartment, so 90 for electric is absurdly high unless you live in a desert. I usually hit 90 only in July and only because my apartment faces west and has horrendously thin windows. Usually I average $25-30.


I've rented my whole adult life, and only one place (student family housing) covered the heat/gas bill. Everywhere else was individually metered. Where do you live that the landlord pays the gas bill?
 
2013-07-15 07:19:53 PM  

bromah:  You assholes just went and demonstrated that you don't pay your workers enough and that the minimum wage is bollox.  Suck my fat c*** you fools, every last one of you.


If you voted for either the Democrats or the Republicans, then fark you right back for keeping this system alive.
 
2013-07-15 07:20:24 PM  

Ivo Shandor: whistleridge: * it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has

That would fall under "Cable/Phone - $100".


WRONG!!!

'Poor' people are rolling in free Obamaphones that they sponge off the EARNERS to pay for.

SHEEPLE WAKE UP! The poors don't need to budget! When you suck of the endless money teet of the socialist usurper the EARNERS are responsibility for the slackers.
 
2013-07-15 07:25:49 PM  
img.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-15 07:27:16 PM  

grimlock1972: highly unrealistic budget is highly unrealistic.


Waiting to see your highly realistic budget for everyone making $24k...
 
2013-07-15 07:29:00 PM  

whistleridge: * it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has


Doesn't budget for a landline either, which where I live is about $40 a month minimum.
So the deal is: stay single,  don't have kids, don't go out, don't get any new clothes or shoes, work 80 hours a week at two jobs using a car that only costs $150 a month which doesn't need gasoline, insurance, registration or maintenance - ever, and maybe you won't need so much food if the shift manager is nice and lets you take the leftovers with you.

What the farking fark.
 
2013-07-15 07:29:39 PM  
And since when does McGag's give anyone full time? I don't see their 20 to 28(or so) hours at minimum wage in their calculations.
 
2013-07-15 07:30:58 PM  

jake3988: E) Food needs to be represented only if it's not free to eat during your shift at McD's, which I certainly hope it is. If it is and you work 40 hours a week... that's... virtually every meal which is why it's not represented here.


That's...probably going to kill you by age 40 if you do it for too long.
 
2013-07-15 07:31:00 PM  

jake3988: whistleridge * * Smartest * Funniest 2013-07-15 05:39:28 PM Said budget: Highlights: * it expects you to work 80 hours per week * it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance * the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well * it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense * it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has
===============================================================

Actually, it's quite accurate.

A) If heating/gas is 0 that means it's an apartment, so 90 for electric is absurdly high unless you live in a desert. I usually hit 90 only in July and only because my apartment faces west and has horrendously thin windows. Usually I average $25-30.

B) Car insurance at $100 a month is absurdly low? WTF car insurance do you have? Mine is $250 for 6 months.

C) Dump cable. Buy netflix and/or amazon prime and/or hulu. I've lived without it for 18 months.

D) Get on your parents cell phone plan (or a good friend if parents are not an option). I pay them $10/month (I don't carry data plan). No sense buying a $100 plan for yourself.

E) Food needs to be represented only if it's not free to eat during your shift at McD's, which I certainly hope it is. If it is and you work 40 hours a week... that's... virtually every meal which is why it's not represented here.

F) If you work 40 hours a week, you get health insurance from your company, hence why it's listed at $20/month. My health insurance is roughly that as I get it through work. Course, that's only for ME. It is quite low if it's for a family.

Car payment is about right too... if you work at mcd's... don't buy a car with a $300/month payment. If you do, you're an idiot. $150-$200 sounds just fine.


You can't afford a wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend
You don't need cable.  Or Netflix. Or the internet. Those are luxuries. Use rabbit ears for Tv
You don't need a phone. People have done without phones for centuries. If you absolutely have to have a phone for emergencies then get a pre-paid with limited minutes . Virgin Mobile $20 a quarter.
You don't need a car of your own, either use public transportation or go in with other people and share a car you can use to go to work.
You should be sharing the housing/power/water with as many other people as you can manage

And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job.
 
2013-07-15 07:31:24 PM  
its a ridiculous budget.. but to be fair, i think its intended as an example of what a budget might look like, not instructions on what a person's budget should actually be. And.. and much as we all know Mickie Ds is horrible capitalist behemouth, my first job ages ago was a couple years flipping burgers at a McDonalds it was a good job, learned some things, met some good friends and had some spending money. Its not so bad. that budget looks more like something realistic from back then though than it does something from now.
 
2013-07-15 07:34:52 PM  

Waldo Pepper: xynix: Gosh.. That's pretty much what I did when I was starting out on my career. 80 hour work weeks are good for the character. Except for a few months I turned off my electricity and gas entirely to save up for my first house. Who needs electricity when you're working all the time? It's just a place to lay a head until the next work day. I lived in a slum.. a $300 a month one room apartment. I didn't have a car payment as I had saved up enough working at Chuck E Cheese when I was 16-17 to buy a decent Toyota that lasted me until I was 22 or so.

For people who expect shiat to land on their lap then yes.. this would be a terrible budget. For a person who wore the same pair of jeans / shoes / shirts for 4 or 5 years while I was bootstrapping this is a completely logical and well thought out budget.

5 years in the same pair of shoes, doubtful you did much standing or walking in said shoes.


He is either lying or he "thinks" he actually did this. You see these types all of the time, the type that in their own mind thought they had everything as hard as the real working poor, but if you actually drill down to it you will find out they weren't anywhere near working for minimum wage or if they were, they had all types of financial help from family.
 
2013-07-15 07:35:11 PM  

CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job.


Of course. All the free time 80 hours of work a week will allow you. Who needs sleep anyway? That's just time wasted being eaten by the bed bugs into $600 shiathole.
 
2013-07-15 07:36:27 PM  

buzzcut73: I've rented my whole adult life, and only one place (student family housing) covered the heat/gas bill. Everywhere else was individually metered. Where do you live that the landlord pays the gas bill?


Everywhere I rented in Vancouver, BC was that way. The apartment buildings had a central boiler for heat + hot water so only electricity was individually metered.
 
2013-07-15 07:36:53 PM  

ongbok: He is either lying or he "thinks" he actually did this. You see these types all of the time, the type that in their own mind thought they had everything as hard as the real working poor, but if you actually drill down to it you will find out they weren't anywhere near working for minimum wage or if they were, they had all types of financial help from family.


Could be wrong, but I think he flips houses, or at least rents them out, and was in another thread a while back chastising the people who wanted inexpensive houses for not having a spare $100K lying around to snap them up at auction.
 
2013-07-15 07:41:22 PM  
This is how job creators actually think.
 
2013-07-15 07:41:59 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job.

Of course. All the free time 80 hours of work a week will allow you. Who needs sleep anyway? That's just time wasted being eaten by the bed bugs into $600 shiathole.


Why would you pay $600 to live in a shiathole? Move to someplace where the housing is cheaper. Try small to mid sized cities.
 
2013-07-15 07:44:14 PM  

Bslim: This is how job creators actually think.


...and the politicians who set minimum wage.
 
2013-07-15 07:47:01 PM  

CujoQuarrel: Why would you pay $600 to live in a shiathole? Move to someplace where the housing is cheaper. Try small to mid sized cities.


Strange thing about conventional physics... matter can't be in two places at once.

- Are there fast food joints in more expensive places to live? YES
- Do those fast food places need people to work in them? YES
- Do those people who work in the fast food places in the more expensive places need somewhere to live? YES

So where do you suggest they live? They can't be in the place where housing is cheaper if the job is where the housing is more expensive. What do? What do?
 
2013-07-15 07:48:04 PM  
Meh.  My job as a high school math teacher in Oklahoma only netted me about $2200 per month.  I was taking care of wife/kid/mortgage with that.

No medicaid/food stamps, of course-- the state considered us far too wealthy.

I got by, but not very well:

-- no health insurance for the wife. Kid and I got healthcare through indian tribe.
-- Car I was making payments on got repoed.
-- Very little savings for when shiat came up.
-- life in general sucked because we were always so close to broke.

The wife could have got a job but she's having more and more health problems in the past year and just about her entire pay would have gone to child care.

I'm back writing software at over double the pay (and less than 1/10th the stress.) I couldn't go on teaching-- I simply couldn't AFFORD to.

I probably would have been OK if I was single, but it would suck, and it would really only be doable because Oklahoma has a damn cheap cost of living.
 
2013-07-15 07:52:24 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Of course. All the free time 80 hours of work a week will allow you. Who needs sleep anyway? That's just time wasted being eaten by the bed bugs into $600 shiathole. It's impossible to sleep when you're being eaten alive by bedbugs anyway.


FTFY.

/I beat the bedbugs, but it took me a year, I had to throw away most of what I owned and move across town, and I will never be able to convince myself it's worth the money to buy a decent bed again.
 
2013-07-15 07:52:45 PM  

CujoQuarrel: Sergeant Grumbles: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job.

Of course. All the free time 80 hours of work a week will allow you. Who needs sleep anyway? That's just time wasted being eaten by the bed bugs into $600 shiathole.

Why would you pay $600 to live in a shiathole? Move to someplace where the housing is cheaper. Try small to mid sized cities.


Sometimes that $600 shiathole is all that is available to some people because a lot of people won't rent to someone making under a certain amount.
 
2013-07-15 07:56:11 PM  

CujoQuarrel: Sergeant Grumbles: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job.

Of course. All the free time 80 hours of work a week will allow you. Who needs sleep anyway? That's just time wasted being eaten by the bed bugs into $600 shiathole.

Why would you pay $600 to live in a shiathole? Move to someplace where the housing is cheaper. Try small to mid sized cities.


you'd be surprised how much housing costs in some areas. where i live it's difficult to find an apartment for $1200/mo plus utilities. and we don't live in a fancypants neighborhood, by far.
 
2013-07-15 07:56:23 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: xynix: Gosh.. That's pretty much what I did when I was starting out on my career. 80 hour work weeks are good for the character. Except for a few months I turned off my electricity and gas entirely to save up for my first house. Who needs electricity when you're working all the time? It's just a place to lay a head until the next work day. I lived in a slum.. a $300 a month one room apartment. I didn't have a car payment as I had saved up enough working at Chuck E Cheese when I was 16-17 to buy a decent Toyota that lasted me until I was 22 or so.

For people who expect shiat to land on their lap then yes.. this would be a terrible budget. For a person who wore the same pair of jeans / shoes / shirts for 4 or 5 years while I was bootstrapping this is a completely logical and well thought out budget.

Were you living at home with mom and Dad when you worked at Chucky Cheese? I mean you were only 16.

Do you realize how lucky you were that nothing went wrong during that time period? That you didn't lose your job or had a horrible accident that prevented you from working. That the economy was in the tank so were it's difficult to get two jobs?  Or that the company you work for folded?

Or the fact that being white probably helped out?

People take risk and try things and more time than not, it doesn't work out.


When I was 16 of course. At 17 I changed jobs so I could work more hours. Then the day I turned 18.. literally I moved out. I worked the graveyard shift at a local security monitoring company from 11pm until 7am then I went home, took a shower, went to school. I did that every school day my senior year and if I could clock overtime on the weekends you damn well bet I was there. Then I worked at CompUSA in the warehouse department to break into the IT industry. I worked there from 8am - 5pm on non-college days (scholarship) and delivered pizza for Pizza Hut from 6pm-12am during the evenings.

Plenty went wrong.. Cars break but I had a savings account which I still have. I'm debt free at almost 40 and will be debt free until I die. Though I have very shiny things right now it's because I did with nothing before.

I'm always hearing people on Fark biatching about how hard life is but at the end of the day if you work your ass off you will get rewarded. Otherwise it's weak minded bullshiat.

Oh nooo a budget that makes sense! What about my iPhone 5?????
 
2013-07-15 07:58:34 PM  
whistleridge: insurance are absurdly low as well

The car insurance quote is ok for an adult (non teen) with a clean record.

But I'm wondering how they managed to get a house to need home insurance? I think it means renters insurance :P

/my car insurance is down to $80 a month. I do remember a time in the distant past though when I was paying close to $200 a month.
 
2013-07-15 08:02:01 PM  

xynix: Darth_Lukecash: xynix: Gosh.. That's pretty much what I did when I was starting out on my career. 80 hour work weeks are good for the character. Except for a few months I turned off my electricity and gas entirely to save up for my first house. Who needs electricity when you're working all the time? It's just a place to lay a head until the next work day. I lived in a slum.. a $300 a month one room apartment. I didn't have a car payment as I had saved up enough working at Chuck E Cheese when I was 16-17 to buy a decent Toyota that lasted me until I was 22 or so.

For people who expect shiat to land on their lap then yes.. this would be a terrible budget. For a person who wore the same pair of jeans / shoes / shirts for 4 or 5 years while I was bootstrapping this is a completely logical and well thought out budget.

Were you living at home with mom and Dad when you worked at Chucky Cheese? I mean you were only 16.

Do you realize how lucky you were that nothing went wrong during that time period? That you didn't lose your job or had a horrible accident that prevented you from working. That the economy was in the tank so were it's difficult to get two jobs?  Or that the company you work for folded?

Or the fact that being white probably helped out?

People take risk and try things and more time than not, it doesn't work out.

When I was 16 of course. At 17 I changed jobs so I could work more hours. Then the day I turned 18.. literally I moved out. I worked the graveyard shift at a local security monitoring company from 11pm until 7am then I went home, took a shower, went to school. I did that every school day my senior year and if I could clock overtime on the weekends you damn well bet I was there. Then I worked at CompUSA in the warehouse department to break into the IT industry. I worked there from 8am - 5pm on non-college days (scholarship) and delivered pizza for Pizza Hut from 6pm-12am during the evenings.

Plenty went wrong.. Cars break but I had a savings acco ...


And look what a wonderful and joyful individual you became.
 
2013-07-15 08:02:33 PM  
There are some deluded people in this thread.

Just don't have a phone?  I'm sure your McDonald's manager will appreciate not being able to call you.  Get on your parents plan?  Better home they aren't poor too.  Maybe you can borrow money for college while you're at it.

McDonalds is providing (helpful) heath insurance at 20 dollars a month?  I would eat my foot if that was true.

Don't buy a new car, get a beater instead?  No shiat, they probably already do that.  Beaters still cost farking money.

Eat all McDonald's food (which isn't free for employees by the way).  Yea that's not going to kill you.

The problem isn't high school kids this kind of money.  The problem is adults with families making this kind of money, and their are a lot of them.  Poverty is a cycle that isn't going to be broken by a silly budget written by an HR doofus who has never struggled with money, nor is it going to be broken by smart asses on the internet lamenting about how hard they had it in college.  It can be broken by ensuring our poor have the same opportunity to pursue careers outside of McDonald's as our non-poor, including equally equipped schools, access to good affordable health care, the freedom to not be required to work two jobs, and access to healthy food options.  I could go on, but I'm afraid I might be accused of being a socialist.
 
2013-07-15 08:03:57 PM  

xynix: Darth_Lukecash: xynix: Gosh.. That's pretty much what I did when I was starting out on my career. 80 hour work weeks are good for the character. Except for a few months I turned off my electricity and gas entirely to save up for my first house. Who needs electricity when you're working all the time? It's just a place to lay a head until the next work day. I lived in a slum.. a $300 a month one room apartment. I didn't have a car payment as I had saved up enough working at Chuck E Cheese when I was 16-17 to buy a decent Toyota that lasted me until I was 22 or so.

For people who expect shiat to land on their lap then yes.. this would be a terrible budget. For a person who wore the same pair of jeans / shoes / shirts for 4 or 5 years while I was bootstrapping this is a completely logical and well thought out budget.

Were you living at home with mom and Dad when you worked at Chucky Cheese? I mean you were only 16.

Do you realize how lucky you were that nothing went wrong during that time period? That you didn't lose your job or had a horrible accident that prevented you from working. That the economy was in the tank so were it's difficult to get two jobs?  Or that the company you work for folded?

Or the fact that being white probably helped out?

People take risk and try things and more time than not, it doesn't work out.

When I was 16 of course. At 17 I changed jobs so I could work more hours. Then the day I turned 18.. literally I moved out. I worked the graveyard shift at a local security monitoring company from 11pm until 7am then I went home, took a shower, went to school. I did that every school day my senior year and if I could clock overtime on the weekends you damn well bet I was there. Then I worked at CompUSA in the warehouse department to break into the IT industry. I worked there from 8am - 5pm on non-college days (scholarship) and delivered pizza for Pizza Hut from 6pm-12am during the evenings.

Plenty went wrong.. Cars break but I had a savings acco ...


No doubt this was in a recent economic time.
 
2013-07-15 08:10:01 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: How cute that it thinks folks who are struggling to make ends meet will have $800 to kick around during the month.


Surely you remember that wonderful WSJ graphic that depicted the struggling family of four making $600k having to deal with new taxes?
 
2013-07-15 08:10:16 PM  
Exodus 22:18 Suffer not a Poisoner to live

Hence McDonalds Employees should be murdered on sight.
 
2013-07-15 08:13:29 PM  
An extra $50 in your paycheck if you eat Ronald McDonald's "Happy Meal".

img547.imageshack.us
 
2013-07-15 08:15:56 PM  

gglibertine: /I beat the bedbugs, but it took me a year, I had to throw away most of what I owned and move across town, and I will never be able to convince myself it's worth the money to buy a decent bed again.


Don't live in a place with bedbugs?  If you can afford to do that, then you can definitely afford a good mattress (Even getting the super-Tempurpedic financed over 48 months is like $125/month).

Seriously, it's awesome to not have to deal with back pain anymore.  I still have neck pains a lot of mornings, but not back pains.

/And even with the "It's the Bay Area, so fark you (cost of living adding 5-100% onto the cost of everything that isn't rent (which is quadrupled)) AND the horse you rode in on (~9% sales tax)" prices on mattresses, the place where you'll spend 8 hours a day almost every day for the next 20 or so years is worth spending something on.

ongbok: Sometimes that $600 shiathole is all that is available to some people because a lot of people won't rent to someone making under a certain amount.


KrispyKritter: you'd be surprised how much housing costs in some areas. where i live it's difficult to find an apartment for $1200/mo plus utilities. and we don't live in a fancypants neighborhood, by far.


This.  Legally, in CA, you have to make 2.4x the rent.  So I'm capped at $2500/month, and am currently paying $2100.  Even the absolute shiatholes are $1550 or so for a 1BR in my area, which means that the people renting them are making ~$45K.  So if you're making less than $45K, you legally cannot rent an apartment in Silicon Valley.

/Though if you're White/Asian/Legal Hispanic who speaks English and graduated High School in SV and you're not making at least $50K (or in college), I don't know what you're doing.
 
2013-07-15 08:17:43 PM  
Maybe they should take up a collection for their employees

i.imgur.com . i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-15 08:18:45 PM  

xynix: Darth_Lukecash: xynix: Gosh.. That's pretty much what I did when I was starting out on my career. 80 hour work weeks are good for the character. Except for a few months I turned off my electricity and gas entirely to save up for my first house. Who needs electricity when you're working all the time? It's just a place to lay a head until the next work day. I lived in a slum.. a $300 a month one room apartment. I didn't have a car payment as I had saved up enough working at Chuck E Cheese when I was 16-17 to buy a decent Toyota that lasted me until I was 22 or so.

For people who expect shiat to land on their lap then yes.. this would be a terrible budget. For a person who wore the same pair of jeans / shoes / shirts for 4 or 5 years while I was bootstrapping this is a completely logical and well thought out budget.

Were you living at home with mom and Dad when you worked at Chucky Cheese? I mean you were only 16.

Do you realize how lucky you were that nothing went wrong during that time period? That you didn't lose your job or had a horrible accident that prevented you from working. That the economy was in the tank so were it's difficult to get two jobs?  Or that the company you work for folded?

Or the fact that being white probably helped out?

People take risk and try things and more time than not, it doesn't work out.

When I was 16 of course. At 17 I changed jobs so I could work more hours. Then the day I turned 18.. literally I moved out. I worked the graveyard shift at a local security monitoring company from 11pm until 7am then I went home, took a shower, went to school. I did that every school day my senior year and if I could clock overtime on the weekends you damn well bet I was there. Then I worked at CompUSA in the warehouse department to break into the IT industry. I worked there from 8am - 5pm on non-college days (scholarship) and delivered pizza for Pizza Hut from 6pm-12am during the evenings.

Plenty went wrong.. Cars break but I had a savings account which I still have. I'm debt free at almost 40 and will be debt free until I die. Though I have very shiny things right now it's because I did with nothing before.

I'm always hearing people on Fark biatching about how hard life is but at the end of the day if you work your ass off you will get rewarded. Otherwise it's weak minded bullshiat.

Oh nooo a budget that makes sense! What about my iPhone 5?????


YUP. Did something similar myself. Had huge tragedies occur along the way but was able to back on track because of the groundwork I laid before it.

I do think life is hard, but everyone I know who always worked super hard is doing pretty good with life.

Nobody studied what their 'heart' told them to, they studied vocationally based subjects and worked long, hard hours at crappy jobs and went without so they one day would not have to.

Nobody I know is 'rich' but the ones who gritted their teeth, ducked their head down and kept pushing on day after day no matter what nightmarish reality popped up are doing very, very well.

People get lucky all the time and succeed simply due to luck. For the most part true success, both as a person and on a society, comes from teeth gritting and never settling.

A person who thinks success comes from simple luck, race, or other factors doesn't understand how reality works.
 
2013-07-15 08:28:54 PM  
xynix: I'm always hearing people on Fark biatching about how hard life is but at the end of the day if you work your ass off you will get rewarded. Otherwise it's weak minded bullshiat.

You're wrong. I understand why you think you're right, but you're wrong. Life is not, has never been, and never will be that fair for most people. You might want to try to muster up a little gratitude that your life has never gone so far south that it was unrecoverable, because not everyone is that lucky.

/And if you don't feel lucky, you're a farking idiot.
 
2013-07-15 08:30:12 PM  

Wall_of_Doodoo: A person who thinks success comes from simple luck, race, or other factors doesn't understand how reality works.


A person who thinks success comes from simply teeth gritting and never settling doesn't understand how reality works.
 
2013-07-15 08:30:35 PM  

btchin trans-am: Best I can figure.  But that savings will be gone as soon as the car breaks.

Income 1    700
Income 2    700
Total        1400

Savings        100
Rent        500    w/ Roommates
Car        150    ($7,500 for 5 yr at 7%)
Car Insurance    100
Health Ins.    53    (Obamacare)
Heating        25
Internet/Phone    72
Electric    20
Food        380
Total        1400

Oh and $3 for bootstraps.


Is $20 per month for electricity realistic? In my neighborhood it's more like $100 for the amount a single person would use.
 
2013-07-15 08:31:29 PM  

gglibertine: You're wrong. I understand why you think you're right, but you're wrong. Life is not, has never been, and never will be that fair for most people. You might want to try to muster up a little gratitude that your life has never gone so far south that it was unrecoverable, because not everyone is that lucky.


Also, this.
 
2013-07-15 08:36:11 PM  

CujoQuarrel: Sergeant Grumbles: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job.

Of course. All the free time 80 hours of work a week will allow you. Who needs sleep anyway? That's just time wasted being eaten by the bed bugs into $600 shiathole.

Why would you pay $600 to live in a shiathole? Move to someplace where the housing is cheaper. Try small to mid sized cities.


It costs money to move house.
 
2013-07-15 08:38:52 PM  

kg2095: btchin trans-am: Best I can figure.  But that savings will be gone as soon as the car breaks.

Income 1    700
Income 2    700
Total        1400

Savings        100
Rent        500    w/ Roommates
Car        150    ($7,500 for 5 yr at 7%)
Car Insurance    100
Health Ins.    53    (Obamacare)
Heating        25
Internet/Phone    72
Electric    20
Food        380
Total        1400

Oh and $3 for bootstraps.

Is $20 per person per month for electricity realistic? In my neighborhood it's more like $100 for the amount a single person would use.


Depends.  My apartment uses ~$50-70/month for electricity and gas which gets split 2 ways.
 
2013-07-15 08:42:22 PM  

DrPainMD: If you're a low-wage McDonald's worker, and you're not a teenager living with your parents, you're doing it wrong.


The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that seven out of 10 growth occupations over the next decade will be low-wage fields. And these jobs are not being done by teenagers. Across the country, the median age of fast-food workers is over 28, and women -- who make up two-thirds of the industry -- are over 32, according to the BLS.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/11/mcjobs-should-pa y- too-inside-fast-food-workers-historic-protest-for-living-wages/265714/
 
2013-07-15 08:42:59 PM  
I like the idea of two jobs. Maybe we could have one job that paid twice as much.

/But that will make Baby Jesus cry
 
2013-07-15 08:46:12 PM  

meyerkev: gglibertine: /I beat the bedbugs, but it took me a year, I had to throw away most of what I owned and move across town, and I will never be able to convince myself it's worth the money to buy a decent bed again.

Don't live in a place with bedbugs?  If you can afford to do that, then you can definitely afford a good mattress (Even getting the super-Tempurpedic financed over 48 months is like $125/month).


"Don't live in a place with bedbugs."

Wow, that's some world-class advice, right there. Gosh, why didn't I ever think of that before? Next time I rent an apartment, I'll just ask the rental agent "Do you have bedbugs?" and I'm sure they'll be 100% totally honest with me. Whew! Another bullet dodged!
 
2013-07-15 08:48:04 PM  

CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job


I've got 10 years experience as a welder, 3 years as a commercial electrician, 1 year project management experience.  Willing to relocate.

EIP.
 
2013-07-15 08:55:39 PM  

gglibertine: meyerkev: gglibertine: /I beat the bedbugs, but it took me a year, I had to throw away most of what I owned and move across town, and I will never be able to convince myself it's worth the money to buy a decent bed again.

Don't live in a place with bedbugs?  If you can afford to do that, then you can definitely afford a good mattress (Even getting the super-Tempurpedic financed over 48 months is like $125/month).

"Don't live in a place with bedbugs."

Wow, that's some world-class advice, right there. Gosh, why didn't I ever think of that before? Next time I rent an apartment, I'll just ask the rental agent "Do you have bedbugs?" and I'm sure they'll be 100% totally honest with me. Whew! Another bullet dodged!


http://bedbugregistry.com/

/aka: The reason I'm spending $2100/month at my current place instead of $1600/month across the street.
 
2013-07-15 08:59:44 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: Or the fact that being white probably helped out?


Great. You're one of them....
 
2013-07-15 08:59:49 PM  

LL316: Health insurance?  My family was in that middle ground...too "rich" for financial aid, too poor to actually send me to a university.  So they stopped claiming me on their taxes, which eventually led to me being able to apply for financial aid without their income.  But this booted me off their health insurance.  I went a 7 years (5 undergrad (shut up), 2 grad) without it.  Bfd.  Get sick?  Drink juice.  It's called making sacrifices in order to better yourself.  Could something terrible have happened?  Of course.  But the odds were against it.


Until they aren't, then you're f--ked.  It's a damn stupid gamble.

In any case, I'm surprised they could.  My friend's sister was estranged from her mother, had a kid of her own, and was living on her own from 18 until 22 when she picked herself up and got into college.  They still took her mom's income into consideration.

Been working since I was 14.  I also worked 80 hour weeks a summer when I was 19 (temp job 8-5, ice cream/take out meals manager 6-11ish).  Worked at the company doing temp for the first two weeks of the summer, job ended, friend's mom needed help at the ice cream stand, then the company called me back for a job of actual importance so I juggled both.

If you have absolutely anything else to worry about - up to and including cooking even just for yourself - it does not. work.  I lived at home, the commute between the two jobs and my house was under 15 minutes, and I just came home and collapsed each night after eating whatever dinner plate my Mom left in the fridge for me.  Barely had time to take care of myself, much less anyone else.  And for a summer that was fine, needed money for school since my family also fell into that crappy middle ground of not rich or poor enough.

But doing that kind of work

a) without a end date in mind,
b) ESPECIALLY without knowing that that effort is going to pay off for you in the end (recent college wall street grad pulling 80 hours a week, owning your own business and pulling 80, etc != an older adult pulling that with the only two retail/food/manual labor jobs/etc they can find.  The former workers know that it's very likely their labor will pay off.  The latter know that one little slip up and the house of cards comes tumbling, and if you're pulling 80 in that work you're likely in a tenuous/desperate life situation at best)

is just unfathomable.  I know people do it and I don't know how their bodies and minds don't break more often.  Maybe they do and it just happens quietly
 
2013-07-15 09:03:35 PM  

meyerkev: http://bedbugregistry.com/

/aka: The reason I'm spending $2100/month at my current place instead of $1600/month across the street.


How nice that you can afford to live in guaranteed bedbug-free luxury. $2100/month is my net pay.

/BTW, that place I used to live? Not listed.
 
2013-07-15 09:05:36 PM  

xynix: Darth_Lukecash: xynix: Gosh.. That's pretty much what I did when I was starting out on my career. 80 hour work weeks are good for the character. Except for a few months I turned off my electricity and gas entirely to save up for my first house. Who needs electricity when you're working all the time? It's just a place to lay a head until the next work day. I lived in a slum.. a $300 a month one room apartment. I didn't have a car payment as I had saved up enough working at Chuck E Cheese when I was 16-17 to buy a decent Toyota that lasted me until I was 22 or so.

For people who expect shiat to land on their lap then yes.. this would be a terrible budget. For a person who wore the same pair of jeans / shoes / shirts for 4 or 5 years while I was bootstrapping this is a completely logical and well thought out budget.

Were you living at home with mom and Dad when you worked at Chucky Cheese? I mean you were only 16.

Do you realize how lucky you were that nothing went wrong during that time period? That you didn't lose your job or had a horrible accident that prevented you from working. That the economy was in the tank so were it's difficult to get two jobs?  Or that the company you work for folded?

Or the fact that being white probably helped out?

People take risk and try things and more time than not, it doesn't work out.

When I was 16 of course. At 17 I changed jobs so I could work more hours. Then the day I turned 18.. literally I moved out. I worked the graveyard shift at a local security monitoring company from 11pm until 7am then I went home, took a shower, went to school. I did that every school day my senior year and if I could clock overtime on the weekends you damn well bet I was there. Then I worked at CompUSA in the warehouse department to break into the IT industry. I worked there from 8am - 5pm on non-college days (scholarship) and delivered pizza for Pizza Hut from 6pm-12am during the evenings.

Plenty went wrong.. Cars break but I had a savings acco ...


well let's scale wage growth to cost of living increases over the last 22 years shall we?   you would have been working in 1992 correct?  that was about 5$ an hour...at 3.5% compounded inflation (and that's beign generous because it's higher than that) puts your wage at 10.65$ in todays dollars (5x1.035^22)  So yoru logic is flawed by the math.  Wages are not increasing anywhere near cost of living.   your arguement is therefore invalid.
 
2013-07-15 09:05:57 PM  

meyerkev: This. Legally, in CA, you have to make 2.4x the rent. So I'm capped at $2500/month, and am currently paying $2100. Even the absolute shiatholes are $1550 or so for a 1BR in my area, which means that the people renting them are making ~$45K. So if you're making less than $45K, you legally cannot rent an apartment in Silicon Valley.


Huh?

So the law requires all unemployed people to be homeless?

This doesn't match my experience renting in California.
 
2013-07-15 09:13:01 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Wall_of_Doodoo: A person who thinks success comes from simple luck, race, or other factors doesn't understand how reality works.

A person who thinks success comes from simply teeth gritting and never settling doesn't understand how reality works.


Horse crap. Plain and simple.

A man who doesn't understand how long and how hard you may have to grit your teeth no matter how many may flake or rot away doesn't understand how reality works or what being a man is.

Perhaps your problem with understanding this is too privedged a life on your part in perspective to actual real people.
 
2013-07-15 09:14:11 PM  

Lawnchair: It's also worth pointing out that "work a second job" in and of itself is become more of a pipedream.  According to Labor Dept. numbers, we have record numbers in part-time jobs, but the number of people working more than one job is actually going down.

That is because larger employers are using the same basic computer models that give you 'just in time' supplies to schedule working hours.  "We need you 3 hours Monday, 7 on Tuesday, 6 on Thursday, 7 on Saturday... but next week will be totally different".  Making working a second job (and finding child care, etc) farking impossible.


There was a piece on Marketplace about that today. Employers want you to work part time, but be available full time. I wonder when the breaking point for workers is going to come.
 
2013-07-15 09:17:19 PM  

Wall_of_Doodoo: A man who doesn't understand how long and how hard you may have to grit your teeth no matter how many may flake or rot away doesn't understand how reality works or what being a man is.


You pathetic attempts at turning poverty into a question of masculinity does nothing to actually address poverty, nor does the prospect of having to grit your teeth until they shatter just to get regular food and shelter.
 
2013-07-15 09:17:57 PM  

Wall_of_Doodoo: Sergeant Grumbles: Wall_of_Doodoo: A person who thinks success comes from simple luck, race, or other factors doesn't understand how reality works.

A person who thinks success comes from simply teeth gritting and never settling doesn't understand how reality works.

Horse crap. Plain and simple.

A man who doesn't understand how long and how hard you may have to grit your teeth no matter how many may flake or rot away doesn't understand how reality works or what being a man is.

Perhaps your problem with understanding this is too privedged a life on your part in perspective to actual real people.


 "If wealth was the inevitable result ofhard work and enterprise, everywoman in Africa would be a millionaire."
 
2013-07-15 09:20:52 PM  

Wall_of_Doodoo: Sergeant Grumbles: Wall_of_Doodoo: A person who thinks success comes from simple luck, race, or other factors doesn't understand how reality works.

A person who thinks success comes from simply teeth gritting and never settling doesn't understand how reality works.

Horse crap. Plain and simple.

A man who doesn't understand how long and how hard you may have to grit your teeth no matter how many may flake or rot away doesn't understand how reality works or what being a man is.

Perhaps your problem with understanding this is too privedged a life on your part in perspective to actual real people.


Because women don't face unemployment hardships?  Or, they can only deal with them by marrying a guy who is employed?
 
2013-07-15 09:28:26 PM  
Americans are pants-on-the-head retarded when it comes to being proud of working harder for less than their parents did. What kind of idiot is proud of the fact that their quality of living is slowly being eroded while a tiny few are living better than the royalty of old?
 
2013-07-15 09:30:56 PM  

12349876: DrPainMD: If you're a low-wage McDonald's worker, and you're not a teenager living with your parents, you're doing it wrong.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that seven out of 10 growth occupations over the next decade will be low-wage fields. And these jobs are not being done by teenagers. Across the country, the median age of fast-food workers is over 28, and women -- who make up two-thirds of the industry -- are over 32, according to the BLS.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/11/mcjobs-should-pa y- too-inside-fast-food-workers-historic-protest-for-living-wages/265714/


Yep.

Since most of the jobs being created are blue-collar, low-wage jobs that don't require a college education, why are we pushing so many kids to go to college (and taking on enormous debt to do so)?  It seems society would be better served by increasing minimum wage to a livable wage so that everyone---those who go to college and those who don't---can survive.
 
2013-07-15 09:31:16 PM  

nmemkha: Americans are pants-on-the-head retarded when it comes to being proud of working harder for less than their parents did. What kind of idiot is proud of the fact that their quality of living is slowly being eroded while a tiny few are living better than the royalty of old?


Thank you for saying this. Truer words have rarely been told.
 
2013-07-15 09:31:56 PM  
Person has a car, car payments and insurance (no repairs though). How about gas for that car folks? Food also might be nice to have.
 
2013-07-15 09:36:01 PM  

fnordfocus: meyerkev: This. Legally, in CA, you have to make 2.4x the rent. So I'm capped at $2500/month, and am currently paying $2100. Even the absolute shiatholes are $1550 or so for a 1BR in my area, which means that the people renting them are making ~$45K. So if you're making less than $45K, you legally cannot rent an apartment in Silicon Valley.

Huh?

So the law requires all unemployed people to be homeless?

This doesn't match my experience renting in California.


So every single place I went said "Total Income of all renters must be 2.4x rent.  It's the law (though I think they might have been lying about that bit, since I can't find anything requiring it So they were kinda lying.  It's not illegal, but it isn't required either)".  So I imagine that you could use sufficient pre-existing assets or a preexisting lease (so if you're renting and then become unemployed you're still on that lease).  There were also a few lower-income housing places that I made about 3x too much money for that would allow really, really poor people to rent (and as usual, middle-class civil servants get screwed since they don't qualify for low-income housing and can't afford anything else).

I also doubt that any person with no income, no expectations of further income, and low or medium assets would be accepted into a new lease at any (non-Section 8) apartment complex anywhere in the country.
 
2013-07-15 09:39:24 PM  

FizixJunkee: 12349876: DrPainMD: If you're a low-wage McDonald's worker, and you're not a teenager living with your parents, you're doing it wrong.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that seven out of 10 growth occupations over the next decade will be low-wage fields. And these jobs are not being done by teenagers. Across the country, the median age of fast-food workers is over 28, and women -- who make up two-thirds of the industry -- are over 32, according to the BLS.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/11/mcjobs-should-pa y- too-inside-fast-food-workers-historic-protest-for-living-wages/265714/

Yep.

Since most of the jobs being created are blue-collar, low-wage jobs that don't require a college education, why are we pushing so many kids to go to college (and taking on enormous debt to do so)?  It seems society would be better served by increasing minimum wage to a livable wage so that everyone---those who go to college and those who don't---can survive.


Sounds like socialism to me!
 
2013-07-15 09:40:19 PM  
My heating bill is indeed $0.00,
 
2013-07-15 09:40:59 PM  

Wall_of_Doodoo: A man who doesn't understand how long and how hard you may have to grit your teeth no matter how many may flake or rot away doesn't understand how reality works or what being a man is.

Perhaps your problem with understanding this is too privedged a life on your part in perspective to actual real people.


I'm curious. Have you ever actually  had your teeth rot away? Because mine are rotting away right now, and I'm having a hard time picturing a positive outcome. Perhaps you could offer some words of advice.

/Two of the temporary crowns lasted 7 years. The other two only lasted 2. I spend time every evening picking the food out of the holes so the fluoride rinse will get to everything. Occasionally another piece falls off. It's not so bad, at least they don't hurt. Yet.
 
2013-07-15 09:41:14 PM  

gglibertine: meyerkev: http://bedbugregistry.com/

/aka: The reason I'm spending $2100/month at my current place instead of $1600/month across the street.

How nice that you can afford to live in guaranteed bedbug-free luxury. $2100/month is my net pay.

/BTW, that place I used to live? Not listed.


Fair enough.

Also, keep in mind that it's Silicon Valley.  Dad's renting a 1050 sq.ft (+ 500 sq. ft basement) 3 bed, 1.5 bath place in MI for $550.  I'm splitting a terrible 2 bed, 1 bath for $2100 total.   True luxury begins at about $2600 and can easily bounce off $3500 for a 1BR or $4500 for a 2 BR.

/and then you can head up into SF like all the Google people and at that point the sky's the limit since getting things like "functional plumbing" and "working electrical systems that can handle the average microwave" are under luxury status up there.
 
2013-07-15 09:42:40 PM  

nmemkha: Americans are pants-on-the-head retarded when it comes to being proud of working harder for less than their parents did. What kind of idiot is proud of the fact that their quality of living is slowly being eroded while a tiny few are living better than the royalty of old?


Because people in this country appreciate whether a bad job, good job, or no job without protest. We'll take what we can.

sdd2000: Person has a car, car payments and insurance (no repairs though). How about gas for that car folks? Food also might be nice to have.


Robots don't eat and they work, why should humans? Maybe eventually companies can find a way to feed their workers for little or nothing without having to pay their workers to buy food.
 
2013-07-15 09:48:15 PM  

Funk Brothers: nmemkha: Americans are pants-on-the-head retarded when it comes to being proud of working harder for less than their parents did. What kind of idiot is proud of the fact that their quality of living is slowly being eroded while a tiny few are living better than the royalty of old?

Because people in this country appreciate whether a bad job, good job, or no job without protest. We'll take what we can.

sdd2000: Person has a car, car payments and insurance (no repairs though). How about gas for that car folks? Food also might be nice to have.

Robots don't eat and they work, why should humans? Maybe eventually companies can find a way to feed their workers for little or nothing without having to pay their workers to buy food.



My old man he is dead and gone
Now I am your old man
And my advice to you, my son
Is to fight back while you can
Watch out for the man with the silicon chip
Hold on to your job with a good firm grip
'Cause if you don't you'll have had your chips
The same as my old man


Ewan MacColl
 
2013-07-15 09:50:11 PM  

meyerkev: This.   Legally, in CA, you have to make 2.4x the rent.  So I'm capped at $2500/month, and am currently paying $2100.  Even the absolute shiatholes are $1550 or so for a 1BR in my area, which means that the people renting them are making ~$45K.  So if you're making less than $45K, you legally cannot rent an apartment in Silicon Valley.



What kind of gibbering bullshiat is this?  I know for a fact that this isn't the law here in San Diego, and there's no f*cking way that this is actually a city ordinance anywhere in the state without it getting legally challenged.

I can see it being a common practice with rental property managers, but no way that's an actual law.  And even if it's a common practice, that's just ripe as all hell for a redlining /civil rights challenge.
 
Juc
2013-07-15 09:51:45 PM  

Goimir: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job

I've got 10 years experience as a welder, 3 years as a commercial electrician, 1 year project management experience.  Willing to relocate.

EIP.


look up jobs on the oil rigs in alberta.
 
2013-07-15 09:54:33 PM  

gglibertine: Wall_of_Doodoo: A man who doesn't understand how long and how hard you may have to grit your teeth no matter how many may flake or rot away doesn't understand how reality works or what being a man is.

Perhaps your problem with understanding this is too privedged a life on your part in perspective to actual real people.

I'm curious. Have you ever actually  had your teeth rot away? Because mine are rotting away right now, and I'm having a hard time picturing a positive outcome. Perhaps you could offer some words of advice.

/Two of the temporary crowns lasted 7 years. The other two only lasted 2. I spend time every evening picking the food out of the holes so the fluoride rinse will get to everything. Occasionally another piece falls off. It's not so bad, at least they don't hurt. Yet.


Yup and nope. Lost a third of my teeth to an amelioblastoma 7 years ago along with a third of my mandible and lost a few since due to rot. It sucked, no insurance, making it just to barely get by was a nightmare, huge scars, had to learn how to speak again.

Ya know what I didn't do, whine about how unfair it was.

Okay, back on subject, no idea dude. I assume either cosmetic dentist or otolaryngologist, depending on your need. A ENT guy was built me a jaw outta fibula and titanium so I'd consider that.

Or Grillz, do you ever drop mad beats?
 
2013-07-15 09:58:11 PM  

Wall_of_Doodoo: Yup and nope. Lost a third of my teeth to an amelioblastoma 7 years ago along with a third of my mandible and lost a few since due to rot. It sucked, no insurance, making it just to barely get by was a nightmare, huge scars, had to learn how to speak again.

Ya know what I didn't do, whine about how unfair it was.


How did you get by?
Bankruptcy?
Were you working two 40 hour minimum wage jobs?
Am I going to have to get a picture of Craig T. Nelson?
 
2013-07-15 10:01:16 PM  

xynix: Gosh.. That's pretty much what I did when I was starting out on my career. 80 hour work weeks are good for the character. Except for a few months I turned off my electricity and gas entirely to save up for my first house. Who needs electricity when you're working all the time? It's just a place to lay a head until the next work day. I lived in a slum.. a $300 a month one room apartment. I didn't have a car payment as I had saved up enough working at Chuck E Cheese when I was 16-17 to buy a decent Toyota that lasted me until I was 22 or so.

For people who expect shiat to land on their lap then yes.. this would be a terrible budget. For a person who wore the same pair of jeans / shoes / shirts for 4 or 5 years while I was bootstrapping this is a completely logical and well thought out budget.


Mr. Baldwin, have I ever told you that you were farking awesome in Glengarry Glen Ross?
 
2013-07-15 10:02:31 PM  

Wall_of_Doodoo: gglibertine: Wall_of_Doodoo: A man who doesn't understand how long and how hard you may have to grit your teeth no matter how many may flake or rot away doesn't understand how reality works or what being a man is.

Perhaps your problem with understanding this is too privedged a life on your part in perspective to actual real people.

I'm curious. Have you ever actually  had your teeth rot away? Because mine are rotting away right now, and I'm having a hard time picturing a positive outcome. Perhaps you could offer some words of advice.

/Two of the temporary crowns lasted 7 years. The other two only lasted 2. I spend time every evening picking the food out of the holes so the fluoride rinse will get to everything. Occasionally another piece falls off. It's not so bad, at least they don't hurt. Yet.

Yup and nope. Lost a third of my teeth to an amelioblastoma 7 years ago along with a third of my mandible and lost a few since due to rot. It sucked, no insurance, making it just to barely get by was a nightmare, huge scars, had to learn how to speak again.

Ya know what I didn't do, whine about how unfair it was.

Okay, back on subject, no idea dude. I assume either cosmetic dentist or otolaryngologist, depending on your need. A ENT guy was built me a jaw outta fibula and titanium so I'd consider that.

Or Grillz, do you ever drop mad beats?


OK, fair enough, you win the Ironman contest.
 
2013-07-15 10:05:59 PM  

Wall_of_Doodoo: gglibertine: Wall_of_Doodoo: A man who doesn't understand how long and how hard you may have to grit your teeth no matter how many may flake or rot away doesn't understand how reality works or what being a man is.

Perhaps your problem with understanding this is too privedged a life on your part in perspective to actual real people.

I'm curious. Have you ever actually  had your teeth rot away? Because mine are rotting away right now, and I'm having a hard time picturing a positive outcome. Perhaps you could offer some words of advice.

/Two of the temporary crowns lasted 7 years. The other two only lasted 2. I spend time every evening picking the food out of the holes so the fluoride rinse will get to everything. Occasionally another piece falls off. It's not so bad, at least they don't hurt. Yet.

Yup and nope. Lost a third of my teeth to an amelioblastoma 7 years ago along with a third of my mandible and lost a few since due to rot. It sucked, no insurance, making it just to barely get by was a nightmare, huge scars, had to learn how to speak again.

Ya know what I didn't do, whine about how unfair it was.

Okay, back on subject, no idea dude. I assume either cosmetic dentist or otolaryngologist, depending on your need. A ENT guy was built me a jaw outta fibula and titanium so I'd consider that.

Or Grillz, do you ever drop mad beats?


Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
 
2013-07-15 10:09:28 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: whistleridge: Said budget:

[thinkprogress.org image 467x588]

Highlights:

* it expects you to work 80 hours per week
* it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance
* the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well
* it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense
* it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has

How cute that it thinks folks who are struggling to make ends meet will have $800 to kick around during the month.


That $800 is for stuff like food and heat and cell phones and all the stuff everyone is whining isn't on the list.

Absurd complaints from think progress, as usual.

Once again: if an employer offers you a wage that is less than what you think your time is worth, then don't take the farking job!
 
2013-07-15 10:10:51 PM  

Goimir: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job

I've got 10 years experience as a welder, 3 years as a commercial electrician, 1 year project management experience.  Willing to relocate.

EIP.


I don't know nothing much about them other than they are hiring welders like crazy

http://www.valmont.com/valmont/company/careers
 
2013-07-15 10:12:40 PM  
For the housing debate: Applications for subsidized housing in Los Angeles have been closed since Dec 2011. I don't think they've been reopened.

So, yeah, how's that social safety net holding up for you?
 
2013-07-15 10:15:43 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Once again: if an employer offers you a wage that is less than what you think your time is worth, then don't take the farking job!


Peki: So, yeah, how's that social safety net holding up for you?


Not anywhere close enough to make Debeo Summa Crederp's comment a reality.
 
2013-07-15 10:16:29 PM  
80 hours a week, eh?  Because two businesses are going to hire you at exactly full time with non-overlapping schedules and you'll teleport from one to the other.

Hell, these days 80 hours is like four jobs on opposite ends of town.  You'd probably devote well over 100 hours a week trying to keep up with the commutes and uniform changes.  Forget about sleep.  You haven't earned sleep yet.
 
2013-07-15 10:20:53 PM  

jake3988: B) Car insurance at $100 a month is absurdly low? WTF car insurance do you have? Mine is $250 for 6 months.


Crappy credit, sketchy ZIP code, any lapses in coverage over the past three too five years...not to mention age and MVR.  There are plenty of ways you can be up the creek for $100 or so a month, even on state minimums.  I saw it all the time when I worked for two different P&C insurers.

/And in WI, which is a pretty cheap state for autos.
//Heaven help you in a place like CA, NJ/NY.
 
2013-07-15 10:22:01 PM  
The general problem is that people are willing to sell their labor so cheap.

/I'd make an evil econometrist.
 
2013-07-15 10:31:56 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Debeo Summa Credo: Once again: if an employer offers you a wage that is less than what you think your time is worth, then don't take the farking job!

Peki: So, yeah, how's that social safety net holding up for you?

Not anywhere close enough to make Debeo Summa Crederp's comment a reality.


That's why I bring specifics in whenever someone starts in with that crap. They make it obvious they have NO CONCEPT OF REALITY.

/sigh
 
2013-07-15 10:33:11 PM  
From the looks of the crappy salary i think the second job is working at another McDonalds.
 
2013-07-15 10:37:49 PM  

YodaTuna: The problem is adults with families making this kind of money,


I was told that they deserve to be poor, because they are poor.

"They are doing it wrong."
 
2013-07-15 10:38:24 PM  

Peki: Sergeant Grumbles: Debeo Summa Credo: Once again: if an employer offers you a wage that is less than what you think your time is worth, then don't take the farking job!

Peki: So, yeah, how's that social safety net holding up for you?

Not anywhere close enough to make Debeo Summa Crederp's comment a reality.

That's why I bring specifics in whenever someone starts in with that crap. They make it obvious they have NO CONCEPT OF REALITY.

/sigh


Reality is market wages. If you don't think wages offered are worth your time, don't take the job. If not for McDonald's offering whatever they are offering, the hypothetical employee would be trying to pay for all that stuff without the wages they get from
McDonald's.
 
2013-07-15 10:44:18 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: If you don't think wages offered are worth your time, don't take the job.


If you can't afford food, don't eat, amirite?
 
2013-07-15 10:46:45 PM  

xynix: but at the end of the day if you work your ass off you will get rewarded. Otherwise it's weak minded bullshiat.


yglesias.thinkprogress.org
mattbruenig.com
media.economist.com
futureofchildren.org
www.brookings.edu
 
2013-07-15 11:02:25 PM  

Ken VeryBigLiar: jake3988: B) Car insurance at $100 a month is absurdly low? WTF car insurance do you have? Mine is $250 for 6 months.

Crappy credit, sketchy ZIP code, any lapses in coverage over the past three too five years...not to mention age and MVR.  There are plenty of ways you can be up the creek for $100 or so a month, even on state minimums.  I saw it all the time when I worked for two different P&C insurers.

/And in WI, which is a pretty cheap state for autos.
//Heaven help you in a place like CA, NJ/NY.


Yep.  $235/month here in CA for state minimums and a $500 deductible.  Mind you, I'm 21 and I have an insanelyterrible driving record so I'm correctly paying $235/month for the privilege of driving maybe 200 miles/month and not using the car for commuting.

/And sadly, while mass transit exists, it's not good enough in the burbs to justify using it for every single thing.
//It's barely good enough to justify commuting to work (station to station on the heavy rail) even when work is paying for it and that's just sad.
 
2013-07-15 11:25:38 PM  

DrPainMD: If you're a low-wage McDonald's worker, and you're not a teenager living with your parents, you're doing it wrong.


You do realize that most people in America work in the service industry right (Yes I know healthcare is included/pays well)? The idea that only teenagers are going to work in retail or in fast food/restaurants is highly unrealistic. True, everyone should probably go into either healthcare or programming if they want a job that is secure and that pays well. Still, people complain about customer service these day, well you get what you pay for.
 
2013-07-15 11:29:12 PM  

bbfreak: or programming if they want a job that is secure


I'm sure the programmers in Hungary whom my old job was outsourced to will revel in their unshakable job security.
 
2013-07-15 11:36:03 PM  

fnordfocus: So the law requires all unemployed people to be homeless?

This doesn't match my experience renting in California.


No. If you rent a place and then become unemployed, this does not apply. If you are unemployed and submit an application to rent, it will probably be rejected because most places follow this guideline.

So if you lose your job you had better come up with the rent each month or else you just might be homeless.
 
2013-07-16 12:02:04 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: bbfreak: or programming if they want a job that is secure

I'm sure the programmers in Hungary whom my old job was outsourced to will revel in their unshakable job security.


Sorry to hear that, hope you found something better. Also my point is that society isn't served by so many low income workers and income inequality. Of course it would help if we had a better public eduction system and better access to opportunities. You don't like paying for welfare? Well tough shiat as long as people can barely afford to eat, or need healthcare for their children.
 
2013-07-16 12:04:02 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Debeo Summa Credo: If you don't think wages offered are worth your time, don't take the job.

If you can't afford food, don't eat, amirite?


Exactly, ya figure out the baseline nutritional value of a 3 pack 2 day old rye vs 2 Save a lot tins of tuna and a half dozen pallet of ramen.

Poop head. Save and retrieve solider, save and retrieve.
 
2013-07-16 12:14:30 AM  

bbfreak: Sorry to hear that, hope you found something better. Also my point is that society isn't served by so many low income workers and income inequality. Of course it would help if we had a better public eduction system and better access to opportunities. You don't like paying for welfare? Well tough shiat as long as people can barely afford to eat, or need healthcare for their children.


Not better, unfortunately, but passable. The last job was too good to be true. Good pay, good benefits, clear training and career tracks.... Things that management doesn't like to foot the bill for anymore. They've tried to bring back some of that since then, and I even briefly had some contract work with them. But I guess they deemed even that too expensive and last I heard they were using interns at <$10/hr to do what got me $21/hr + bennies. Hell, I interned to get a job there and they started me at $15.

It's not just access to opportunities, it's the opportunities themselves.
 
2013-07-16 12:14:41 AM  
We really have no idea what the assumed hours  and wages are.  ThinkProgress just threw out "$8.25 average wage."  The budget lists net income; we don't know what tax deductions are made.  No clue what gross income or hours worked are.

It seems probable that a front-line McD's worker is going to be  getting 30 hours/week or less.  A second job would probably be similar.  So maybe a lucky soul gets 50-60 hours a week.  At $8.25/hour, that's $1787 to $2145 per month GROSS income.

FICA tax is 6.2%, bringing this hypothetical range down to $1676 to $2012.  I've no idea what to withhold for income tax.  This could be a single person, a single parent, or a married person with or without kids.

Now let's get real and assume 3 weeks/year without work.  We're down to $1580 to $1896 per month net of FICA but before income taxes, state and federal (maybe city, too).

Budget's net income assumption is total bullshiat. No farking way a front-line McD's worker has $800 left over at the end of a month.
 
2013-07-16 12:17:08 AM  

Wall_of_Doodoo: Exactly, ya figure out the baseline nutritional value of a 3 pack 2 day old rye vs 2 Save a lot tins of tuna and a half dozen pallet of ramen.

Poop head. Save and retrieve solider, save and retrieve.


I was being facetious and I think much less of you for agreeing if you're not doing so with sarcasm. Hard to tell.
 
2013-07-16 12:17:50 AM  
I know that if I just keep busting my ass. surely God will reward me?!!!?!!?

/'well, it worked just fine for me...'
 
2013-07-16 12:20:31 AM  

Goimir: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job

I've got 10 years experience as a welder, 3 years as a commercial electrician, 1 year project management experience.  Willing to relocate.

EIP.


http://nd.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=welder&zoomToPosting=&srchT y pe=A">http://nd.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=welder&zoomToPosting= &srchTy pe=A
 
2013-07-16 12:36:39 AM  
fast food is for the poor by the poor. or lazy, cheap, or nostalgic middle/rich people.
 
2013-07-16 12:49:12 AM  

mr lawson: Goimir: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job

I've got 10 years experience as a welder, 3 years as a commercial electrician, 1 year project management experience.  Willing to relocate.

EIP.

http://nd.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=welder&zoomToPosting=&srchT y pe=A">http://nd.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=welder&zoomToPosting= &srchTy pe=A


Six posts this month on Craigslist, one is by a person (miscatagorized) looking for work.

One that reads $22/hr, others posting a wide salary range which means they'll hire you on at $14-$15/hr and "see how you work out" as they don't **need** someone who's a $20/hr welder, but would like to hook one in and get a year or so out of him by stringing him along with the promise of more money.  In reality, they'll be happy to hire a kid out of votech and biatch at him for not being like the guy who was forced into an early retirement because they were paying him $25/hr even though he was worth every cent of it.  "Competitive" means $10/hr, always.  Every.  Single.  Time.

No, if you're going to tell people that if they only had a trade they could get a decent job, have a decent job to offer.  Put up or shut up.  I know how to use craigslist.  I've gotten quite a few jobs off of craigslist.  Usually they're startups or other cash-strapped companies who can't afford an actual ad, or they're looking for something so specific that a newspaper classified isn't going to reach enough people to get a response.

/very jaded
//actually thinking about saying "fark welding" and being a musician instead
 
2013-07-16 12:57:14 AM  

lordargent: whistleridge: insurance are absurdly low as well

The car insurance quote is ok for an adult (non teen) with a clean record.

But I'm wondering how they managed to get a house to need home insurance? I think it means renters insurance :P

/my car insurance is down to $80 a month. I do remember a time in the distant past though when I was paying close to $200 a month.


I'm paying 200 a month now.
Sure, it's four vehicles with full coverage, but it's $200 a month.
 
2013-07-16 12:59:26 AM  
Seems appropriate:

i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-16 01:13:54 AM  
This argument is coming down to a disturbing fact. Most people think that subsistence is adequate. A meritocracy is not an issue.
 
2013-07-16 01:15:18 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: The My Little Pony Killer: whistleridge: Said budget:

[thinkprogress.org image 467x588]

Highlights:

* it expects you to work 80 hours per week
* it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance
* the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well
* it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense
* it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has

How cute that it thinks folks who are struggling to make ends meet will have $800 to kick around during the month.

That $800 is for stuff like food and heat and cell phones and all the stuff everyone is whining isn't on the list.

Absurd complaints from think progress, as usual.

Once again: if an employer offers you a wage that is less than what you think your time is worth, then don't take the farking job!


So, the people who take it deserve what they get yeh?
 
2013-07-16 01:31:49 AM  

inclemency: This argument is coming down to a disturbing fact. Most people think that subsistence is adequate. A meritocracy is not an issue.


This.

It's a little shiatty to hear that you deserve to starve due to a series of events that were never conceivable prior to the choice you made, or weren't due to the choices you made anyway (like, for instance, my fault that my father took out a 300K loan on a house, which if we don't keep will send four of us into homelessness).

The best explanation I've ever heard between Republicans and Dems is this: Democrats understand that we are all one or a few bad days away from absolute disaster, and believe that everyone should have a helping hand if that happens. Republicans think people deserve what they get, then scream special circumstances when bad shiat happens to them for no reason.
 
2013-07-16 02:17:07 AM  

inclemency: This argument is coming down to a disturbing fact. Most people think that subsistence is adequate. A meritocracy is not an issue.


Not to mention recent studies have been showing that all that 'grit your teeth and bootstrap up' doesnt work and has massive detrimental effects on your health.

Whats the point of being disturbingly cheap and working yourself half to death every day? So that you can wake up tomorrow and do it all over again? Where does it get you?Whats the point of doing it all to just have to do it all over again? Sounds like a horror story to me. Work today so you can survive to work tomorrow. When you cant work any more pray you qualify for government assistance or that you have people who love you and are willing to take care of you.

If i learned anything today its that the farker 'wall of shiat' is probly a psychopath. Seriously dude -- empathy. You need some. You sound like Dennis on "its always sunny". Just... terrible. Just a terrible human being.
 
2013-07-16 03:34:20 AM  

Snapper Carr: jake3988: E) Food needs to be represented only if it's not free to eat during your shift at McD's, which I certainly hope it is. If it is and you work 40 hours a week... that's... virtually every meal which is why it's not represented here.

That's...probably going to kill you by age 40 if you do it for too long.


And what a relief that will be.
/at the end of the day you're another day older...
 
2013-07-16 05:18:19 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Once again: if an employer offers you a wage that is less than what you think your time is worth, then don't take the farking job!


Goddamn, I hope you choke on a spear.
 
2013-07-16 07:14:10 AM  
If only the SEC had any teeth left McDonald's would have it's own money problem, no longer being a public corporation and figuring out how to come up with the billions in cash needed to pay off the value of the shares in public and investor hands. If McDonald's thinks its employees can do without good wages, it can do without the privilege of being a public corporation.
 
2013-07-16 07:52:28 AM  
Burger Flipping is an intermediate job.
If you are trying to make a career out of it, there is the real issue
 
2013-07-16 08:08:19 AM  

Spaz-master: Burger Flipping is an intermediate job.
If you are trying to make a career out of it, there is the real issue


What exactly do you think somebody who needs money to feed their kids in a depressed area should do instead?

I'm sure they can magically procure money for college, or better interview outfits, or the time to go interview somewhere else!
 
2013-07-16 08:27:21 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Wall_of_Doodoo: A person who thinks success comes from simple luck, race, or other factors doesn't understand how reality works.

A person who thinks success comes from simply teeth gritting and never settling doesn't understand how reality works.


gglibertine: xynix: I'm always hearing people on Fark biatching about how hard life is but at the end of the day if you work your ass off you will get rewarded. Otherwise it's weak minded bullshiat.

You're wrong. I understand why you think you're right, but you're wrong. Life is not, has never been, and never will be that fair for most people. You might want to try to muster up a little gratitude that your life has never gone so far south that it was unrecoverable, because not everyone is that lucky.

/And if you don't feel lucky, you're a farking idiot.


It's both.  People that say "You make your own luck" are often right.  Hard work and persistence usually pay off.  On the other hand, making poor decisions (A fancy new car with a big loan early-on, an apartment for 25% more money than you should be spending because it's on the right street, every shiny new electronic bauble has to be yours, you won't take an entry-level job that might become something because it pays 10% less than the dead-end job you have now, etc.) will usually bite you in the ass.

Lots of people seem to believe that the system is stacked against them and they assume that they'll never be "successful" (whatever that means).  They're almost invariably right.  They don't make the sacrifices that give them a shot at "making it" because they assume it won't work out.  Obviously, unless you're really lucky, you're going to end up in a crappy job for the rest of your life unless you make an effort to better your situation.

But it's not automatic.  You can work really, really hard and if enough bad stuff happens you may never get out of the hole.

We need a way to prop the people up who have consistently made a legitimate effort but circumstances have always conspired against.  On the other hand, we need a way to minimize the reward we give to people who consistently and willfully fark up and are unwilling to take any responsibility for it.

/Doing pretty well.
//Worked very, very hard.
///Realize I'm also fortunate.
////Not a black & white issue.
 
2013-07-16 08:35:37 AM  

epoch_destroi: Spaz-master: Burger Flipping is an intermediate job.
If you are trying to make a career out of it, there is the real issue

What exactly do you think somebody who needs money to feed their kids in a depressed area should do instead?

I'm sure they can magically procure money for college, or better interview outfits, or the time to go interview somewhere else!


They need to use it as a short term gateway to a real job.
The employer is not the parent.  The employer isn't responsible for those kids.
If they are looking to be teens sponging on a parent figure for life, that is their choice, but it isn't the employer's responsibility to be that provider.
Your rant about magically procuring money is bogus and effectively comes down to "who will cover their costs?"
 
2013-07-16 08:42:52 AM  

Wall_of_Doodoo: A person who thinks success comes from simple luck, race, or other factors doesn't understand how reality works.


And a person that thinks all it takes to get ahead in life is hard work and determination and can't understand why people don't just work harder is a privileged asshole that truely has no idea how the real world works.
 
2013-07-16 08:50:43 AM  

epoch_destroi: Spaz-master: Burger Flipping is an intermediate job.
If you are trying to make a career out of it, there is the real issue

What exactly do you think somebody who needs money to feed their kids in a depressed area should do instead?

I'm sure they can magically procure money for college, or better interview outfits, or the time to go interview somewhere else!


No.  They work the "intermediate job" until they can make something better happen.  Not wait for something better to come along, but actually make a plan and work toward something better.  And if that doesn't work out, then make another plan.

Seriously, the time to go interview somewhere?  If your excuse is that you can't buy a pair of khakis and a button-down shirt from Goodwill and make a few hours to go to an interview, then you're exactly the person I'm talking about in my previous post.

If you get a temp job in manufacturing here, you'll make more than you do at McDonalds.  It's a super-easy job to get.  If you demonstrate that you're a good worker, you'll get a "permanent" job here.  There's no guarantee, and it won't happen overnight, but we hire basically all of our manufacturing staff that way.  So what's better?  Work at McDonalds forever for $8.25/hr or call Manpower, get a temp job in one of the manufacturing plants here that pays more than that with the hopes of ending up with a really solid job before your temp contract expires?  But by your logic, you don't have time to show up for the interview to get that temp job.  Weak sauce.
 
2013-07-16 09:01:56 AM  
Newsflash:  Working at McDonald's is not a recipe for having a prosperous, independent life with your own apartment, car, and cable tv.
 
2013-07-16 09:07:26 AM  
Parkanzky:  an apartment for 25% more money than you should be spending because it's on the right street,

Yep, much better to just live in some shiat apartment with shiat neighbors that feel it is their right to stomp around partying at 2 in the morning every morning and when you try to politely ask them to keep it down because you have to work in the morning, they get pissed at you for disrespecting them, key your car and do everything they can to make your life a living hell.
 
2013-07-16 09:11:30 AM  

jake3988: E) Food needs to be represented only if it's not free to eat during your shift at McD's, which I certainly hope it is. If it is and you work 40 hours a week... that's... virtually every meal which is why it's not represented here.


When I worked there you got a standard value meal and a desert every four hours, which can add up to a LOT of McDonald's Meals if you're working 12+ hour shifts on a regular basis.

No idea what the policy is these days.
 
2013-07-16 09:17:47 AM  
I lived in a ~$250/mo two bedroom apartment for a year.  This was in 1998, so adjust accordingly.  It was a crap-hole, but it was a perfectly adequate place to live.  There are also really terrible places to live as well.  I didn't choose one of those.

I'm not saying it's easy to live on a meager salary and incrementally improve your situation, obviously more money gives you more options.  But it's possible.  Feel free to keep believing that your station in life is everybody's fault but yours if it helps you to sleep better at night.  It might even be true.  Sometimes people are dealt a really bad hand.

One statistic I'd like to see is how much the average cable bill is for households in various income brackets.  I'm guessing the very lowest quintiles have to do without out of necessity, but the lower-middle spends more than the upper-middle because they define "necessity" differently.
 
2013-07-16 09:32:04 AM  
Yeah.. I used to change oil for $9 an hour (highest paid hourly employee in the company, woo.....) and its literally impossible to survive off that.  I had my parents sending me grocery gift cards, and I had paid my car off before moving out on my own so I didnt even have car payments.  Was impossible.

I sold drugs, stole quarters out of cars, scammed walmart out of electronics.. all kinds of things *shrug*.  Of course, I reinvested my illicit money into getting me out of that situation, unlike most people in that life, but whatever.

I understand.

You're a moron if you decide to stay in that position though.    Whatever you have to do to get yourself out of it, do it... just make sure you actually get  out.
 
2013-07-16 09:40:33 AM  

Goimir: //actually thinking about saying "fark welding" and being a musician instead


Join a welders union and be willing to move, is my only advice for that field.  I know welders who make a fark ton of money doing construction welding.
 
2013-07-16 09:44:13 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-16 09:45:50 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: No farking way a front-line McD's worker has $800 left over at the end of a month.


That's not what it says. The $800 is for buying food and clothing, putting gas in the POS car one is buying on $150/mo, paying for season's tickets to the Raiders, etc.
 
2013-07-16 09:51:17 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Reality is market wages. If you don't think wages offered are worth your time, don't take the job. If not for McDonald's offering whatever they are offering, the hypothetical employee would be trying to pay for all that stuff without the wages they get from
McDonald's.


Spoken like the useless MBA shiat-stain you are.
 
2013-07-16 09:52:49 AM  
Young white males shouldn't be allowed to comment on how easy it is to get a good paying job.

Especially if they work in IT.

Would you hire a forty year old single mother of three who only had wage slave jobs on their resume to manage your network?  Even if she had certification?

No, no you wouldn't.
 
2013-07-16 09:53:41 AM  
Newsflash: nobody owes you a goddamn thing. I am sorry if your parents never told you that.
 
2013-07-16 09:58:21 AM  

sendtodave: Would you hire a forty year old single mother of three who only had wage slave jobs on their resume to manage your network?  Even if she had certification?

No, no you wouldn't.


You know how I know you dont actually manage people for a living?  If she was actually capable, I would always hire a parent with dependents over a fresh privileged college grad.  Every.  Single.  Time.

Of course, IT is a field that is notoriously bad for age and sexual discrimination I guess.  I would automatically assume a 40 year old woman with kids would be no where near as knowledgeable about IT as a nerd kid who grew up in that lifestyle, and I'd probably be right.

Thats what job screening is for though.
 
2013-07-16 10:01:32 AM  

Wall_of_Doodoo: Ivo Shandor: whistleridge: * it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has

That would fall under "Cable/Phone - $100".

WRONG!!!

'Poor' people are rolling in free Obamaphones that they sponge off the EARNERS to pay for.

SHEEPLE WAKE UP! The poors don't need to budget! When you suck of the endless money teet of the socialist usurper the EARNERS are responsibility for the slackers.


You misspelled Reaganphones.
 
2013-07-16 10:04:50 AM  

Alonjar: You know how I know you dont actually manage people for a living? If she was actually capable, I would always hire a parent with dependents over a fresh privileged college grad. Every. Single. Time.

Of course, IT is a field that is notoriously bad for age and sexual discrimination I guess. I would automatically assume a 40 year old woman with kids would be no where near as knowledgeable about IT as a nerd kid who grew up in that lifestyle, and I'd probably be right.


So, I'm wrong in saying that discrimination happens, but but I'm right in saying that discrimination happens, but I'm wrong because it happens for a good reason.

Thanks for clearing that up.

My point still stands:  White male is easy mode.  Even more so if you didn't grow up poor.

Older female immigrant, or poor Afro-American with kids?  God mode.  Even getting past level one is insane.
 
2013-07-16 10:09:07 AM  

Alonjar: I would automatically assume a 40 year old woman with kids would be no where near as knowledgeable about IT as a nerd kid who grew up in that lifestyle, and I'd probably be right.


Actually, I should have focused on this part.

What would you assume that a 40 year old, single minority woman (with children) would be knowledgeable in that would pay an actual salary?

Washing clothes?  Cooking food?  Because that's what they do.

I mean, if we are going to blame them for making bad choices and all.  They should have chosen to be born in the subrubs to white people, instead of wherever the fark they came from.

Now hurry up with my burger, cog!
 
2013-07-16 10:11:55 AM  

Alonjar: Goimir: //actually thinking about saying "fark welding" and being a musician instead

Join a welders union and be willing to move, is my only advice for that field.  I know welders who make a fark ton of money doing construction welding.


I know welders who have joined the union and got screwed.  They work about 20 hours a week and about three weeks a month.  The only union welders I know that make any money are guys I've met in bars in their fifties who have been in the union for 20 years and thus have enough seniority to actually work "union full time", which is to say 6 months on at $35/hr, 6 months collecting unemployment.
 
2013-07-16 10:18:21 AM  
$20 health insurance? LOL! I have it at work, and still have to contribute $360 a month.
 
2013-07-16 10:20:22 AM  

The Gordie Howe Hat Trick: Newsflash: nobody owes you a goddamn thing. I am sorry if your parents never told you that.


So be born rich?
 
2013-07-16 10:49:12 AM  

Pick: $20 health insurance? LOL! I have it at work, and still have to contribute $360 a month.


My last job was very generous in health care regards and I was paying 25 a pay check for a single person's healthcare, vision and dental.
 
2013-07-16 10:49:38 AM  
Other income........stealing from asshole corporate employer that treats you inhumanly (food!? don't budget for that): amount undisclosed.
 
2013-07-16 10:50:52 AM  

Parkanzky: On the other hand, making poor decisions (A fancy new car with a big loan early-on, an apartment for 25% more money than you should be spending because it's on the right street, every shiny new electronic bauble has to be yours, you won't take an entry-level job that might become something because it pays 10% less than the dead-end job you have now, etc.) will usually bite you in the ass.


These are not the kinds of things keeping people poor. These are the kinds of things people who aren't so bad off do that keep them living paycheck to paycheck. This is, however, the kind of attitude that denies the poor the help they need. But go ahead, keep being one of those simpering morons who think a cable TV subscription is the only thing holding people back.
 
2013-07-16 11:17:50 AM  
bbfreak:So be born rich?

It's definitely easier that way.  But not everybody who has a decent life had everything handed to them.  My parents started out extremely poor and ended up with a nice middle-class life.

They had six kids, so while they did their best to help, they couldn't just hand each of us our futures and we each had to make our own way.  Now the six of us have a very wide range of "financial success," from one sibling that lives paycheck to paycheck and is looking for a very cheap place to live where he can take care of his two kids to another sibling with a beautiful house outside of NYC, a big "retreat" in Connecticut and who frequently travels internationally.

I also know people that had wealthy parents who are having a hard time.  Granted, their "hard time" would be much, much worse if they didn't have their parents propping them up, but they seem to squander every opportunity afforded to them.  They are in a worse spot than their parents and their kids are on track to have extremely hard lives.
 
2013-07-16 11:29:48 AM  

jst3p: jake3988: E) Food needs to be represented only if it's not free to eat during your shift at McD's, which I certainly hope it is. If it is and you work 40 hours a week... that's... virtually every meal which is why it's not represented here.

Mostly decent advice, but when I worked food service (a long time ago) you got on meal at half price per shift worked. That was fairly standard (all the soda you wanted if you used your own cup).

If the listed budget were my budget I would say screw the second job and get on SNAP, I am pretty sure that income would qualify. Back in the day I had to get three part time jobs to get to 50 hours. Babbages, Blockbuster and a sandwich shop.


and what all these "get a second Job" folks fail to address is what you don when Your MC D's manager comes to you and tells that "so sorry, But Joe called in sick so you'll have to cover his shift on the grill tonight"  That kinda thin is notoriously common in the minimum wage world, and managers  tend to consider saying "no" to such requests insubordination and a firing offense even if it is to go work another jon
 
2013-07-16 11:34:08 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Parkanzky: On the other hand, making poor decisions (A fancy new car with a big loan early-on, an apartment for 25% more money than you should be spending because it's on the right street, every shiny new electronic bauble has to be yours, you won't take an entry-level job that might become something because it pays 10% less than the dead-end job you have now, etc.) will usually bite you in the ass.

These are not the kinds of things keeping people poor. These are the kinds of things people who aren't so bad off do that keep them living paycheck to paycheck. This is, however, the kind of attitude that denies the poor the help they need. But go ahead, keep being one of those simpering morons who think a cable TV subscription is the only thing holding people back.


It's also the kind of thing that can make someone poor.  Even a tiny buffer can make a huge difference.  Living paycheck to paycheck means that if you have a minor financial crisis, you're likely to get hit with some late fees and interest.  So the minor crisis can cost you way more than it should have.

I know that that is reality for some people who are truly scraping to get by and living on the minimum.  But if someone has a $120 cable bill and their car battery dies and it costs $120 to get a jump and a new battery then they can end up paying a late fee on one of their bills because they don't have that extra $120 to spend.  So now the dead battery costs $170 or so because they pay for the incident and another $50 for a late fee to whomever they opt not to pay on time.  Now their budget is $170 behind and that could very well spiral into more late fees and interest payments.  I know plenty of people that would say they can afford the $120 cable bill because they make that much money but they're assuming that they'll never need that money for something else.  I have an "unexpected" expense of some kind almost every month.  It's really important to just expect to have to spend a bit of money you didn't plan to.  And again, I know that there are people that are truly suffering out there.  Working as hard as they can, doing without and still not making ends meet.  I want to see those people get help.

And the cable bill is just an example.  I don't think for a second that it usually boils down to any one decision or expense.  On the other hand, those little luxuries add up and speak to an attitude toward money (and forsight) that doesn't bode well.

Personally, I think that attitude and ambition have a lot more to do with success than scrimping.  Keeping expenses low can be key to weathering the inevitable storms, but it's more important to be looking for the next opportunity and positioning yourself to take advantage of it.  Short term pain for long term gain.
 
2013-07-16 11:55:05 AM  

Goimir: mr lawson: Goimir: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job

I've got 10 years experience as a welder, 3 years as a commercial electrician, 1 year project management experience.  Willing to relocate.

EIP.

http://nd.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=welder&zoomToPosting=&srchT y pe=A">http://nd.craigslist.org/search/jjj?query=welder&zoomToPosting= &srchTy pe=A

Six posts this month on Craigslist, one is by a person (miscatagorized) looking for work.

One that reads $22/hr, others posting a wide salary range which means they'll hire you on at $14-$15/hr and "see how you work out" as they don't **need** someone who's a $20/hr welder, but would like to hook one in and get a year or so out of him by stringing him along with the promise of more money.  In reality, they'll be happy to hire a kid out of votech and biatch at him for not being like the guy who was forced into an early retirement because they were paying him $25/hr even though he was worth every cent of it.  "Competitive" means $10/hr, always.  Every.  Single.  Time.

No, if you're going to tell people that if they only had a trade they could get a decent job, have a decent job to offer.  Put up or shut up.  I know how to use craigslist.  I've gotten quite a few jobs off of craigslist.  Usually they're startups or other cash-strapped companies who can't afford an actual ad, or they're looking for something so specific that a newspaper classified isn't going to reach enough people to get a response.

/very jaded
//actually thinking about saying "fark welding" and being a musician instead


sorry...was not trying to be condescending. I was up there for a few days and companies were looking for either drivers or welders.  Just thought I would pass it along.
with that said....being a musician is a hell of a lot of fun but not great pay...but FREE BEER!
 
2013-07-16 12:12:23 PM  

Stone Meadow: BarkingUnicorn: No farking way a front-line McD's worker has $800 left over at the end of a month.

That's not what it says. The $800 is for buying food and clothing, putting gas in the POS car one is buying on $150/mo, paying for season's tickets to the Raiders, etc.


And there's no farking way a McD's worker has $800 left for all of that, either.
 
2013-07-16 01:01:46 PM  

Parkanzky: Short term pain for long term gain.


It's not like you'll find many who disagree with the basic premise. It's just that the pain is increasing while the gains lessening, unless of course you're already on top, where it's the inverse.
You speak of looking for the next opportunity? What is that? Going to college or getting certified for a specific field or skill? Moving to where there might be work? Taking a lower paying job on the chance it will lead to more gainful employment?

On its face, these aren't bad ideas, but looking into the reality of them in today's environment presents fleeting opportunity.
College costs are increasing at an astoundingly stupid rate, and no degree or certification seems to be safe from being outsourced or offshored, and there's the constant specter of needing specific experience in the field before you'll even be considered for entry level. What is there to do about getting a degree no job in the field would pay for? What is there to do for getting certifications and skills that cost money, but employers don't think is justification for a pay raise?
Moving is unattractive unless you already have a job lined up, and with housing prices and rental prices on the rise, not to mention just the price of moving itself, makes this a tenuous prospect. Furthermore, it's a scary thing to uproot yourself, and maybe your family, for a new place absent the safety net of your friends and other loved ones. The idea of being penniless in a strange place and penniless in your home town leaves some people more sedentary.
Taking a lower paying job with the hopes of something better, later? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Anymore, that just seems like a way for employers to string you along for as long as possible for peanuts. I took an internship in hopes it would lead to a better job. Worked my ass off for six months, worked another job on the side to pay the bills. I did get a permanent position.... only to have the entire department outsourced two months later. I've known folks stuck in the temp to perm bullshiat for years, and when they threaten their employer with quitting, the employer invariably shows them the door. There's cheaper workers out there whether you're high skill or low skill.

No, on it's face, no pain no gain is a good standard. Applying it to today's job market is a harsh lesson in risk vs. reward.
 
2013-07-16 01:41:32 PM  

Goimir: CujoQuarrel: And you should be using your free time to gain a skill that allows you to get a better job

I've got 10 years experience as a welder, 3 years as a commercial electrician, 1 year project management experience.  Willing to relocate.

EIP.



but you don't live in communist china.  big problem.   and you want health insurance.  chop chop!
 
2013-07-16 01:48:19 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Stone Meadow: BarkingUnicorn: No farking way a front-line McD's worker has $800 left over at the end of a month.

That's not what it says. The $800 is for buying food and clothing, putting gas in the POS car one is buying on $150/mo, paying for season's tickets to the Raiders, etc.

And there's no farking way a McD's worker has $800 left for all of that, either.


Of course not. I was just riffing off TFA where is says 'you can have anything you want if you'll save up for it'.
 
2013-07-16 01:50:07 PM  

Garet Garrett: Newsflash:  Working at McDonald's is not a recipe for having a prosperous, independent life with your own apartment, car, and cable tv.


but it WILL make Mcdonald's stockholders and brass very happy!
 
2013-07-16 02:54:31 PM  
To everyone who has said, "just get a job at the factory...just get a better job than burger flipping....just move to a better area"

Get a dose of reality. Job availability varies hugely by region, and many poor people don't dare move to a place where they don't know anybody to look for a better job - they're one mishap away from being homeless.

I've lived in places (and do right now) where there's pretty much nothing but minimum wage jobs, unless you have very specific skills (such as IT). Every restaurant and grocery store job has a line of applicants with a college degree - plenty of my friends work in these, or are managers at these places.

Even many skilled jobs pay horribly. The people who provided physical therapy for my broken shoulder were getting $12 an hour.  The x-ray tech at my doctor's makes $14 an hour. These are jobs with four year degrees. And they really aren't going to ever do any better.

I guess in some magical fairy land they could save up and move to a place with better jobs, but scraping together enough of a cushion to do that is incredibly hard. And moving some place where no one knows you is dangerous. When I finished my bachelors, I had an offer of a full tuition scholarship for graduate school at a top school on the east coast.  I turned it down - I was terrified that a couple of missed paychecks from whatever part-time jobs I'd be working, and I'd be out on the street.
 
2013-07-16 03:07:20 PM  
Because it is McDonalds fault that these people dropped out of highschool and are only capable of flipping a burger for the rest of their lives.  And thanks to Obamacare most places are getting rid of full time employees and making everyone part time.  Democrats don't know shiat about economics. I still remember when I was getting my degree in economics and all the liberals dropped out one by one as they couldn't face the fact that their dogma didn't match reality.  Also showed they rather stay ignorant then educate themselves - probably why they all work at McDonalds.
 
2013-07-16 04:18:48 PM  

lordaction: Because it is McDonalds fault that these people dropped out of highschool and are only capable of flipping a burger for the rest of their lives.  And thanks to Obamacare most places are getting rid of full time employees and making everyone part time.  Democrats don't know shiat about economics. I still remember when I was getting my degree in economics and all the liberals dropped out one by one as they couldn't face the fact that their dogma didn't match reality.  Also showed they rather stay ignorant then educate themselves - probably why they all work at McDonalds.


Are you really that stupid, or are you just trolling? Its hard to tell. You make a lot of assumptions about poor people. Also the idea that we had it so good before Obamacare is ridiculous. Its at best a step in the right direction, because a healthier population leads to a healthier society. Shocking I know.

I bet you also believe Union's killed jobs too. Union's aren't perfect, and certainly have their problems but employers shockingly don't stand up for their employees on their own. Take Walmart, its the biggest company in the country and yet it squeezes its employees/suppliers to the breaking point. Not only that, it encourages everyone else to run their business like Walmart in a consumer economy like ours since they have so much leverage.

Income inequality is bad for America, having a degree in economics you might realize that. People can't spend money that they don't have it. Especially important in a consumer economy.
 
2013-07-16 04:27:28 PM  

bbfreak: lordaction: Because it is McDonalds fault that these people dropped out of highschool and are only capable of flipping a burger for the rest of their lives.  And thanks to Obamacare most places are getting rid of full time employees and making everyone part time.  Democrats don't know shiat about economics. I still remember when I was getting my degree in economics and all the liberals dropped out one by one as they couldn't face the fact that their dogma didn't match reality.  Also showed they rather stay ignorant then educate themselves - probably why they all work at McDonalds.

Are you really that stupid, or are you just trolling? Its hard to tell. You make a lot of assumptions about poor people. Also the idea that we had it so good before Obamacare is ridiculous. Its at best a step in the right direction, because a healthier population leads to a healthier society. Shocking I know.

I bet you also believe Union's killed jobs too. Union's aren't perfect, and certainly have their problems but employers shockingly don't stand up for their employees on their own. Take Walmart, its the biggest company in the country and yet it squeezes its employees/suppliers to the breaking point. Not only that, it encourages everyone else to run their business like Walmart in a consumer economy like ours since they have so much leverage.

Income inequality is bad for America, having a degree in economics you might realize that. People can't spend money that they don't have it. Especially important in a consumer economy.


Actually, I agree with pretty much everything  you said except that Obamacare was a step in the right direction.  I'm a big fan of measure twice cut once.
 
2013-07-16 04:47:15 PM  

MisterRonbo: I guess in some magical fairy land they could save up and move to a place with better jobs, but scraping together enough of a cushion to do that is incredibly hard. And moving some place where no one knows you is dangerous. When I finished my bachelors, I had an offer of a full tuition scholarship for graduate school at a top school on the east coast. I turned it down - I was terrified that a couple of missed paychecks from whatever part-time jobs I'd be working, and I'd be out on the street.


I moved away for college and then moved out of state for graduate school.  I didn't know anybody where I went to college, although I did end up in the same department as somebody I went to undergrad with when I went to grad school (although just by chance).  It's not like he'd have payed my rent for me if I fell on hard times.

Being too scared that something bad might happen to follow opportunities is your call, of course, but you're obviously limiting your options.
 
2013-07-16 05:17:53 PM  

Parkanzky: I moved away for college and then moved out of state for graduate school. I didn't know anybody where I went to college, although I did end up in the same department as somebody I went to undergrad with when I went to grad school (although just by chance). It's not like he'd have payed my rent for me if I fell on hard times.

Being too scared that something bad might happen to follow opportunities is your call, of course, but you're obviously limiting your options.


Let me guess - you had family that would have loaned you money if you were on the verge of being homeless.

And of course everybody has that, right?

Seriously, think for a minute about how hard some people have it. Is it that damn hard for you to do? Imagine you're a kid from a screwed up background, you spent your childhood bounced from home to home, and you have no family or the ones you have are so farked up that they're trying to get money off of you.

Now you get an opportunity that's three thousand miles from anyone you know, and the tuition (at a really good, really expensive school) is 100% free in exchange for duties that will keep you busy one or two evenings a week plus some weekends. Great deal!

But you have maybe $500 to your name, and you're terrified of ending up homeless.

Is that so hard to fit in to your world? Really? If so, you're astoundingly close-minded or you're another Romney who thinks everyone can just fall back on mommy and daddy.

So either you're clueless or obtuse. Which is it?
 
2013-07-16 05:22:14 PM  

Goimir: Alonjar: Goimir: //actually thinking about saying "fark welding" and being a musician instead

Join a welders union and be willing to move, is my only advice for that field.  I know welders who make a fark ton of money doing construction welding.

I know welders who have joined the union and got screwed.  They work about 20 hours a week and about three weeks a month.  The only union welders I know that make any money are guys I've met in bars in their fifties who have been in the union for 20 years and thus have enough seniority to actually work "union full time", which is to say 6 months on at $35/hr, 6 months collecting unemployment.


Come to Alberta, welders make party good money on the oil fields.
 
2013-07-16 05:52:19 PM  

change1211: Goimir: Alonjar: Goimir: //actually thinking about saying "fark welding" and being a musician instead

Join a welders union and be willing to move, is my only advice for that field.  I know welders who make a fark ton of money doing construction welding.

I know welders who have joined the union and got screwed.  They work about 20 hours a week and about three weeks a month.  The only union welders I know that make any money are guys I've met in bars in their fifties who have been in the union for 20 years and thus have enough seniority to actually work "union full time", which is to say 6 months on at $35/hr, 6 months collecting unemployment.

Come to Alberta, welders make party good money on the oil fields.


I didn't realize intenational relocation was my best bet
 
2013-07-16 06:10:15 PM  

Parkanzky: It's both.  People that say "You make your own luck" are often right.  Hard work and persistence usually pay off.  On the other hand, making poor decisions (A fancy new car with a big loan early-on, an apartment for 25% more money than you should be spending because it's on the right street, every shiny new electronic bauble has to be yours, you won't take an entry-level job that might become something because it pays 10% less than the dead-end job you have now, etc.) will usually bite you in the ass.


And what about those of us who work hard and persist *and* abstain from unnecessary expenses, but things just plain don't go our way? I could tell you my tale of woe, but it would take too long and it would make me cry, and after the day I just had at work I really need to chill out, not obsess over how thanks to the recession and several random factors beyond my control I've lost all the ground I gained in my 30s, not to mention all of my savings and all of my furniture, and am now just as broke as I was when I started my career, only I'm working twice as hard at a shiattier job for less than half as much money.

I've worked my ass off my whole life. I'm one of the biggest cheapskates you'll ever meet. I bootstrapped myself into a lucrative career without even having gone to college through sheer determination and chutzpah, and for ten years, had nothing but one success after another. Then the tech market crashed, and here I am, basically right back where I started only older and tireder and much, much more cynical. I have no credit cards to max out; no one will give me credit. I have no family to fall back on. I'm working without a net here, and I'm hanging on by my fingernails. So don't you DARE think you know a goddamned thing about my circumstances and how I got here, you arrogant, self-righteous piece of shiat.
 
2013-07-16 06:17:54 PM  

ongbok: Waldo Pepper: xynix: Gosh.. That's pretty much what I did when I was starting out on my career. 80 hour work weeks are good for the character. Except for a few months I turned off my electricity and gas entirely to save up for my first house. Who needs electricity when you're working all the time? It's just a place to lay a head until the next work day. I lived in a slum.. a $300 a month one room apartment. I didn't have a car payment as I had saved up enough working at Chuck E Cheese when I was 16-17 to buy a decent Toyota that lasted me until I was 22 or so.

For people who expect shiat to land on their lap then yes.. this would be a terrible budget. For a person who wore the same pair of jeans / shoes / shirts for 4 or 5 years while I was bootstrapping this is a completely logical and well thought out budget.

5 years in the same pair of shoes, doubtful you did much standing or walking in said shoes.

He is either lying or he "thinks" he actually did this. You see these types all of the time, the type that in their own mind thought they had everything as hard as the real working poor, but if you actually drill down to it you will find out they weren't anywhere near working for minimum wage or if they were, they had all types of financial help from family.


I worked hard. Not as hard as the working poor often do, but hard. Full credit load and fifty hours a week. Saved money, lived frugally enough that other people at my level made fun of me. shiatty old clothes. A pair of shoes a year. No AC. Minimized my heating.

In addition I had the head start of saving for a decemt car in high school: using my parents resources like their car to make it possible. This meant not calling late to work because I wasn't stuck with a beater. It meant a good high school and a resources to live near work and college (saving some twenty hours a week over many), etc.

It meant that not only did I have a decent ability to save, but that I had a second safety net if shiat fell to pieces. Knowing I had the savings to say fark it if I snapped under pressure was what allowed me to bear the pressure in the first place. Being able to bear that pressure made a future more easy to work towards, and it has gotten better every year.

I doubt I would be anywhere close to where I am today if I was born into poverty in a bad neighborhood. That doesn't mean I can logically approve of the many bad financial decisions of individual poor people, but it isn't hard to see why they are made.

It is a hell of a lot harder to scrimp and save if you are one illness, car breakdown, etc. from square one. I was never in that position, and lucky for it.
 
2013-07-16 06:19:02 PM  

buzzcut73: jake3988: whistleridge * * Smartest * Funniest 2013-07-15 05:39:28 PM Said budget: Highlights: * it expects you to work 80 hours per week * it expects you to only spend $20/month on health insurance * the car payment and insurance are absurdly low as well * it does not budget for food, usually the biggest single expense * it does not budget for things like cell phones, that everyone has
===============================================================

Actually, it's quite accurate.

A) If heating/gas is 0 that means it's an apartment, so 90 for electric is absurdly high unless you live in a desert. I usually hit 90 only in July and only because my apartment faces west and has horrendously thin windows. Usually I average $25-30.

I've rented my whole adult life, and only one place (student family housing) covered the heat/gas bill. Everywhere else was individually metered. Where do you live that the landlord pays the gas bill?


All of my apts in michigan have.
 
2013-07-16 06:23:07 PM  
Oh, and fyi folks on the 'beater' thing: a beater is often going to end up more expensive than a decent car. If you don't have a pocket mechainic and a buddy who can tow you, shiat gets pricy fast.
 
2013-07-16 06:27:17 PM  

Smackledorfer: It meant that not only did I have a decent ability to save, but that I had a second safety net if shiat fell to pieces. Knowing I had the savings to say fark it if I snapped under pressure was what allowed me to bear the pressure in the first place. Being able to bear that pressure made a future more easy to work towards, and it has gotten better every year.


I don't think there's a better argument for a safety net. A stable base to work from and the peace of mind to work harder, knowing you won't lose everything if you fail.
 
2013-07-16 06:33:43 PM  
Last point for now: intermediate job vs. career.

I see this shiat said all the time.
Just what percent of American jobs do you farkers think are career quality? What percent of employed Americans do you think should be in those jobs at any given time?

Answer those, then look at wage breakdowns. I think you may find it impossible for everyone you believe ought to have a career to actually have one.

How about since the world needs ditch diggers we tweak our section of the world so that ditchdiggers can live decently, instead of getting jealous of their refridgerator possession rates?
 
2013-07-16 07:20:40 PM  

Koodz: 80 hours a week, eh?  Because two businesses are going to hire you at exactly full time with non-overlapping schedules and you'll teleport from one to the other.

Hell, these days 80 hours is like four jobs on opposite ends of town.  You'd probably devote well over 100 hours a week trying to keep up with the commutes and uniform changes.  Forget about sleep.  You haven't earned sleep yet.


Yeah, it'd be interesting to see if it's actually possible for anyone to get two full-time minimum-wage jobs and keep them for, say, a year. You could definitely get two almost-30 hours-per-week jobs (or almost-25, or whatever the relevant benefits cutoff is in your state), and IF they were physically close to one another, and IF they were both the sorts of job where there was never really any variation in the hours, and IF nothing beyond your control went wrong, you could do it.

But it'd be a hell of a trick to even get  hired for two full-time minimum-wage jobs with totally separate schedules.

/yes, bootstrappers, I know, you actually worked three of them at a time, back when you were first grasping your bootstraps
 
2013-07-16 07:29:46 PM  

Goimir: I didn't realize intenational relocation was my best bet


you can also go to the shipyards
 
2013-07-16 07:46:33 PM  

mikefinch: inclemency: This argument is coming down to a disturbing fact. Most people think that subsistence is adequate. A meritocracy is not an issue.

Not to mention recent studies have been showing that all that 'grit your teeth and bootstrap up' doesnt work and has massive detrimental effects on your health.

Whats the point of being disturbingly cheap and working yourself half to death every day? So that you can wake up tomorrow and do it all over again? Where does it get you?Whats the point of doing it all to just have to do it all over again? Sounds like a horror story to me. Work today so you can survive to work tomorrow. When you cant work any more pray you qualify for government assistance or that you have people who love you and are willing to take care of you.

If i learned anything today its that the farker 'wall of shiat' is probly a psychopath. Seriously dude -- empathy. You need some. You sound like Dennis on "its always sunny". Just... terrible. Just a terrible human being.


My FIL is grateful to have gotten total disability through the VA for his Agent Orange exposure. It's more money than he's ever made working. He is not well off; he's just no longer working to be poor.
 
2013-07-16 07:53:04 PM  

MisterRonbo: To everyone who has said, "just get a job at the factory...just get a better job than burger flipping....just move to a better area"

Get a dose of reality. Job availability varies hugely by region, and many poor people don't dare move to a place where they don't know anybody to look for a better job - they're one mishap away from being homeless.

I've lived in places (and do right now) where there's pretty much nothing but minimum wage jobs, unless you have very specific skills (such as IT). Every restaurant and grocery store job has a line of applicants with a college degree - plenty of my friends work in these, or are managers at these places.

Even many skilled jobs pay horribly. The people who provided physical therapy for my broken shoulder were getting $12 an hour.  The x-ray tech at my doctor's makes $14 an hour. These are jobs with four year degrees. And they really aren't going to ever do any better.

I guess in some magical fairy land they could save up and move to a place with better jobs, but scraping together enough of a cushion to do that is incredibly hard. And moving some place where no one knows you is dangerous. When I finished my bachelors, I had an offer of a full tuition scholarship for graduate school at a top school on the east coast.  I turned it down - I was terrified that a couple of missed paychecks from whatever part-time jobs I'd be working, and I'd be out on the street.


I have a coworker with a Ph. D who works with me at the call center. We make $12 an hour (that's AFTER that first annual review with a raise). I make half what I made at my first job out of college, my health insurance is $360/month (I'm paying for my spouse's as well), and I'm falling further and further behind.
 
2013-07-16 09:15:06 PM  

atomic-age: I have a coworker with a Ph. D who works with me at the call center. We make $12 an hour (that's AFTER that first annual review with a raise). I make half what I made at my first job out of college, my health insurance is $360/month (I'm paying for my spouse's as well), and I'm falling further and further behind.


At least you have a behind to fall to.  If I lose my job I have about 2 days to find another one if it pays as much, and a day if it pays a buck or two less an hour.  Otherwise I lose either my phone or my vehicle.  Probably the vehicle, as I can get by without a car.
 
2013-07-16 09:19:02 PM  

MisterRonbo: Parkanzky: I moved away for college and then moved out of state for graduate school. I didn't know anybody where I went to college, although I did end up in the same department as somebody I went to undergrad with when I went to grad school (although just by chance). It's not like he'd have payed my rent for me if I fell on hard times.

Being too scared that something bad might happen to follow opportunities is your call, of course, but you're obviously limiting your options.

Let me guess - you had family that would have loaned you money if you were on the verge of being homeless.

And of course everybody has that, right?

Seriously, think for a minute about how hard some people have it. Is it that damn hard for you to do? Imagine you're a kid from a screwed up background, you spent your childhood bounced from home to home, and you have no family or the ones you have are so farked up that they're trying to get money off of you.

Now you get an opportunity that's three thousand miles from anyone you know, and the tuition (at a really good, really expensive school) is 100% free in exchange for duties that will keep you busy one or two evenings a week plus some weekends. Great deal!

But you have maybe $500 to your name, and you're terrified of ending up homeless.

Is that so hard to fit in to your world? Really? If so, you're astoundingly close-minded or you're another Romney who thinks everyone can just fall back on mommy and daddy.

So either you're clueless or obtuse. Which is it?


So what do you propose? That the poor never risk failure and just accept their stations? You're quite the champion of the under-privileged.
 
2013-07-16 09:21:07 PM  

Lawnchair: It's also worth pointing out that "work a second job" in and of itself is become more of a pipedream.  According to Labor Dept. numbers, we have record numbers in part-time jobs, but the number of people working more than one job is actually going down.

That is because larger employers are using the same basic computer models that give you 'just in time' supplies to schedule working hours.  "We need you 3 hours Monday, 7 on Tuesday, 6 on Thursday, 7 on Saturday... but next week will be totally different".  Making working a second job (and finding child care, etc) farking impossible.


Best part is that those models produce schedules that are demonstrably awful for business. One of my coworkers moonlights as a grocery store manager. It was her 'career' before she came on board, and she now does it one Saturday a month just to stay on payroll because she rightfully doesn't trust our corporate overlords not to cut her (we're in IT and she's a contractor). Her store was full of biatching and pissing and moaning about the schedule, and turnover was through the roof. So she started taking the time to sit down for an hour or two and work out a schedule by hand once a week and, guess what - she had to keep fewer staff on payroll, paid less for staff overall, morale was very high, and turnover dropped to the lowest level anywhere in the chain. It stayed that way for YEARS, with a surprisingly static staff. When she "left" that all went back to being done by the computer and everything reverted to the normal grocery store constant-turnover chaos.
 
2013-07-16 09:28:40 PM  

gglibertine: Parkanzky: It's both.  People that say "You make your own luck" are often right.  Hard work and persistence usually pay off.  On the other hand, making poor decisions (A fancy new car with a big loan early-on, an apartment for 25% more money than you should be spending because it's on the right street, every shiny new electronic bauble has to be yours, you won't take an entry-level job that might become something because it pays 10% less than the dead-end job you have now, etc.) will usually bite you in the ass.

And what about those of us who work hard and persist *and* abstain from unnecessary expenses, but things just plain don't go our way? I could tell you my tale of woe, but it would take too long and it would make me cry, and after the day I just had at work I really need to chill out, not obsess over how thanks to the recession and several random factors beyond my control I've lost all the ground I gained in my 30s, not to mention all of my savings and all of my furniture, and am now just as broke as I was when I started my career, only I'm working twice as hard at a shiattier job for less than half as much money.

I've worked my ass off my whole life. I'm one of the biggest cheapskates you'll ever meet. I bootstrapped myself into a lucrative career without even having gone to college through sheer determination and chutzpah, and for ten years, had nothing but one success after another. Then the tech market crashed, and here I am, basically right back where I started only older and tireder and much, much more cynical. I have no credit cards to max out; no one will give me credit. I have no family to fall back on. I'm working without a net here, and I'm hanging on by my fingernails. So don't you DARE think you know a goddamned thing about my circumstances and how I got here, you arrogant, self-righteous piece of shiat.


Reread my posts. I said that some people do everything right and it doesn't work out for them, and there should be mechanisms in place to help those people. I made it clear that the bigots on both sides, speaking in absolutes, are wrong for different reasons.

All the responses to my posts pick out anything that sounds boot-strappy, because Fark loves to white-knight for the under-privileged. But I am definitely not saying that poor people are poor because they are lazy and deserve it and that they'd get their house, two cars, 2.5 kids and a dog if they would just apply themselves.

But go ahead, call me names if it makes you feel better.
 
2013-07-16 09:48:18 PM  

Parkanzky: But I am definitely not saying that poor people are poor because they are lazy and deserve it and that they'd get their house, two cars, 2.5 kids and a dog if they would just apply themselves.


Uh... yeah you are. That's exactly the argument you're making.

Parkanzky: No. They work the "intermediate job" until they can make something better happen. Not wait for something better to come along, but actually make a plan and work toward something better. And if that doesn't work out, then make another plan.

Seriously, the time to go interview somewhere? If your excuse is that you can't buy a pair of khakis and a button-down shirt from Goodwill and make a few hours to go to an interview, then you're exactly the person I'm talking about in my previous post.

If you get a temp job in manufacturing here, you'll make more than you do at McDonalds. It's a super-easy job to get. If you demonstrate that you're a good worker, you'll get a "permanent" job here. There's no guarantee, and it won't happen overnight, but we hire basically all of our manufacturing staff that way. So what's better? Work at McDonalds forever for $8.25/hr or call Manpower, get a temp job in one of the manufacturing plants here that pays more than that with the hopes of ending up with a really solid job before your temp contract expires? But by your logic, you don't have time to show up for the interview to get that temp job. Weak sauce.

 
2013-07-16 10:10:37 PM  
Nonsense.

I'm saying that if you want things to get better, you've got to try.  But that doesn't necessarily guarantee success.  There's a huge opportunity gap in the world right now (not just in the US).  If you're born poor, you're likely to stay poor.  That's unfortunate, but it's also a fact.  However, some people do "better" than their parents did.  We should try to understand how families go from being poor to prosperous over the course of a few generations.  Instead, it sounds like most of you want just accept that society/luck/the man/etc. keep the poor down and there's nothing that can be done.  I don't buy that defeatist mindset.

Unfortunately, when people show up and explain how they went from beingpoor to middle class, nobody believes it's possible.  It's "b-b-b-b-but you must have had a rich parent help you!" or "you must be white!" or "nothing bad ever happened to you!" or "Not in this economy!"  Instead, if you're not doing as well as you'd like, try listening to those people and seeing if there's a lesson you can take from it.  There might just be something worth trying.  I don't think it does any good to just say, "I'm poor and I'll always be poor an there's nothing I could ever do about it so I won't try."  And that sounds exactly like the sort of advice somebody saying it's not worth taking risks to do better would give.

But go ahead and feel like you've really taught me a lesson.  I'd rather you actually present a solution to the problem though, instead of just pissing in everybody else's store-brand Cheerios.
 
2013-07-16 10:46:23 PM  

Parkanzky: Unfortunately, when people show up and explain how they went from beingpoor to middle class, nobody believes it's possible.


Untrue. We are pointing out that it's increasingly an outlier and "Work harder! Never give up!" is not an actual solution, just good advice. And in this specific case, McDonald's wages, it is near enough an outright impossibility with the numbers being spewed.

Parkanzky: I don't think it does any good to just say, "I'm poor and I'll always be poor an there's nothing I could ever do about it so I won't try." And that sounds exactly like the sort of advice somebody saying it's not worth taking risks to do better would give.


No one says that either. They the opportunities aren't so easy to seize and the cost of failure isn't worth the risk. "Take risks!" isn't a solution either, just good advice.

Parkanzky: But go ahead and feel like you've really taught me a lesson.


I'd have to believe you were reading our arguments for that. Instead you're walking back the "the poors are so lazy, they should cancel their cable and work as temps" bootstrappiness from your earlier posts.
 
2013-07-17 01:21:55 AM  

12349876: DrPainMD: If you're a low-wage McDonald's worker, and you're not a teenager living with your parents, you're doing it wrong.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that seven out of 10 growth occupations over the next decade will be low-wage fields. And these jobs are not being done by teenagers. Across the country, the median age of fast-food workers is over 28, and women -- who make up two-thirds of the industry -- are over 32, according to the BLS.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/11/mcjobs-should-pa y- too-inside-fast-food-workers-historic-protest-for-living-wages/265714/


So, what you're saying is that a lot of people are doing it wrong.
 
2013-07-17 02:28:21 AM  

DrPainMD: So, what you're saying is that a lot of people are doing it wrong.


You're no longer even remotely interesting...
 
2013-07-17 02:36:01 AM  
For all you assholes who say that minimum wage is for kids...you're right. You're absolutely right. Nobody should work minimum wage jobs except high school kids, the mentally handicapped, and chronic f*ck-ups. So what is wrong when for every 100 Americans who want a job, there are 40 minimum wage jobs, 20 crap jobs, 15 "real" jobs, and two upper-middle class jobs? Would it be more bootstrappy to raise the minimum wage, implement wage controls by industry and service length, or say qu'ils mangent de le brioche?
 
2013-07-17 05:18:06 AM  

Parkanzky: So what do you propose? That the poor never risk failure and just accept their stations? You're quite the champion of the under-privileged.


I was explaining the problems in the current system that held them back.  You really are obtuse.

But since you asked:

Make basic education widely available for free: basic computer skills, writing a resume, reading comprehension, etc.
Very low, low cost community kitchens so people in poor neighborhoods could eat healthy and very cheap (this would hurt some fast food business I realize)
Very cheap or free daycare so single mothers can work.  This would also provide jobs. I've run cost estimates, I think a realistic cost would run about $25-$30 billion a year to do this right. Also serves as a jobs program
Raise minimum wage to $12.50 and index to inflation. By pumping money in to poor areas and the businesses they use (fast food, corner stores) this would create jobs
Work more than 8 hours out of 24? That's time and a half.
Employers get to pick a time window to schedule you - five days per week, and a 12 hour window each day (can be different on different days). Changing the time window requires two week's notice. Schedule the worker outside that window, you have to pay time and a half. This would make it easier for workers to get a second job
Improved funding for mass transit so people don't need cars
Free WiFi in poor neighborhoods, so people can learn, look for jobs, use a VOIP phone instead of a costly cell
Build more affordable housing - tie building permits for expensive housing to building affordable, so expensive condos subsidize construction of the people who work service jobs to help them.

These steps would make it: a) easier to live on a minimum wage job  b) easier to get a job  c) easier to move up to a better job d) easier to work two jobs  e) easier for mothers to work without being killed by the cost of childcare

How to pay for it:Roll the Pentagon core budget back to FY2000 levels, adjusted for inflation. Annual savings: $186 billion this year, and rising.
 
2013-07-17 05:32:24 AM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Parkanzky: Unfortunately, when people show up and explain how they went from beingpoor to middle class, nobody believes it's possible.

Untrue. We are pointing out that it's increasingly an outlier and "Work harder! Never give up!" is not an actual solution, just good advice. And in this specific case, McDonald's wages, it is near enough an outright impossibility with the numbers being spewed.

Parkanzky: I don't think it does any good to just say, "I'm poor and I'll always be poor an there's nothing I could ever do about it so I won't try." And that sounds exactly like the sort of advice somebody saying it's not worth taking risks to do better would give.

No one says that either. They the opportunities aren't so easy to seize and the cost of failure isn't worth the risk. "Take risks!" isn't a solution either, just good advice.

Parkanzky: But go ahead and feel like you've really taught me a lesson.

I'd have to believe you were reading our arguments for that. Instead you're walking back the "the poors are so lazy, they should cancel their cable and work as temps" bootstrappiness from your earlier posts.


You act like I haven't acknowledged the problem. Quit just ignoring the parts where I say that there is limited opportunity for the poor to become the middle class. You like to twist my words, but getting out of a minimum wage has got to be part of the answer, right? FWIW, I never proposed multiple jobs, expensive education or asking your rich uncle to make you manager of his dry cleaner. I am also not saying "just work harder," because I believe that some very hard jobs are also terrible jobs that don't pay enough and go nowhere. I know that the world isn't fair and someone can do everything right and still get stuck.

So what is the solution? You say it's not worth taking any sort of risk to get ahead, then what should someone that finds themselves poor do to change their situation?

Again, you love to jump up and down anytime someone offers what you're now saying is "good advice" and tell them how unrealistic it is. But the picture you seem to paint is that it's basically hopeless or just down to luck, which isn't very constructive.
 
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