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(NewsBusters)   Zimmerman's lawyer: Hey I thought he was guilty and believed everything the media said before I became his lawyer, then I saw the facts, presented it in court and won. Not my fault Americans are a factless lynch mob   (newsbusters.org) divider line 442
    More: Interesting, Mark O'Mara, Benjamin Crump, Alan Dershowitz, guilty  
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2805 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Jul 2013 at 1:38 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-15 02:52:43 PM  

Ninepoundhammer: Let's remove all subjectivity from this for a moment:

Fact: Martin was an unarmed 17 year old breaking no laws or standards of behavior
Fact: Zimmerman is not an officer of the law
Fact: Zimmerman actively pursued martin after he was told not to
Fact: Zimmerman's pursuit led to a confrontation
Fact: When confronted the unarmed Martin stood his ground and defended himself.
Fact: Zimmerman was losing said confrontation so he pulled a gun on an unarmed man and shot him dead

Where's the justice?


If I could smack the SMART button a dozen times, I would.
 
2013-07-15 02:54:50 PM  
How long before we can sensibly reflect on this and discuss the real lessons that should have been learned here?

1) If you're in the neighborhood watch, that's all you're supposed to do: WATCH. Do not pursue, do not confront, you're not a cop and it's not your job. You can take photos of suspicious characters, write down their license plates if they're driving, but don't go any further than that and absolutely don't get out of your car to follow anyone. It's a real good way to get jumped, especially since it's late and you're tailing people, which makes YOU look pretty suspicious yourself.

2) If you're cutting through a neighborhood late at night, even your own neighborhood, there's a good chance the neighborhood watch will notice you. If they're stupid and ignore Rule 1, they might even follow you. Go straight home, call the cops if you feel really uncomfortable, but don't be an idiot and try to take them on yourself. That person could be armed, and no matter what your 17-yr-old hormones are telling you, you're not indestructable.

Further questions for consideration: If Zimmerman had been unarmed and Martin just beat the crap out of him, how many charges would Martin be facing right now? What if he had jumped an actual plainclothes deputy instead of a wanna-be cop? Given that there were witnesses, how does any outcome of this fight go in Martin's favor?
 
2013-07-15 02:56:57 PM  

debbie_does_dishes: FeFiFoFark: AdmirableSnackbar: Philip Francis Queeg: dittybopper: AdolfOliverPanties: 

Did Treyvon Martin have the right to defended himself from an armed assailant?

TM threw the first sucker punch, assaulted GZ pinned him down & beat him. He was on offense dumbass.

Consider the opposing perspective: TM catches GZ following him and notices he has a gun on him. Would you, as TM in this situation, perceive that as a threat?


Rachel Jaentel said nothing about a gun. And if it were Martin on top of Zimmerman screaming for his life, he still didn't mention a gun. While possible, very implausible if you use common sense. It seems clear TM came back to confront Zimmerman. The dispatcher asked if Zimmerman was following because of wind noise and his labored breathing. When he told Z that he didn't need to follow Martin, he said ok and in seconds, the windo noise stopped and his breathing returned to normal. The dispatcher asked Z for his address and Z started to give it, but stopped because he didn't know where Martin was and didn't want him to overhear it. So for two minutes at least, Martin was nowhere in sight and Z never went after him.

This is not my interpretation - this is what you can hear on the tapes. You keep wishing for a scenario that attacks Zimmerman, but these are the facts.
 
2013-07-15 02:57:00 PM  
LOL, he basically states that the media unfairly portrayed Zimmerman by showing him at the weight he was when he shot Martin, and then went on to make sure Zimmerman lost a shiat-ton of weight before the trial so that he could manipulate the jurors into thinking that Martin was less threatening.

Sounds like he's FINE with manipulation when he's the one doing it.
 
2013-07-15 02:57:37 PM  

EdgeRunner: Further questions for consideration: If Zimmerman had been unarmed and Martin just beat the crap out of him, how many charges would Martin be facing right now? What if he had jumped an actual plainclothes deputy instead of a wanna-be cop? Given that there were witnesses, how does any outcome of this fight go in Martin's favor?


A lot of charges. He'd be in jail until the end of time. And, HM, GEE, Zimmerman's story has some very strange holes in it. HMM.
 
2013-07-15 02:58:19 PM  

BeesNuts: Lay off the drugs ditty.  Stop fantasizing about being Zimm.


What?   Seriously.  My incident happened in 1989, and as I expressly pointed out, I'm no bad-ass.

I was pointing out how hard it is to actually knock someone out, even with a weapon, because apparently Befuddled thought that it was easy to do.  Life ain't like the movies, you know.

/Spent the rest of that night at Tripler Army Medical Center.
//Forehead was stitched up by an oral surgeon.
///Typical Army.
 
2013-07-15 03:00:21 PM  

Ninepoundhammer: Let's remove all subjectivity from this for a moment:

Fact: Martin was an unarmed 17 year old breaking no laws or standards of behavior
Fact: Zimmerman is not an officer of the law
Fact: Zimmerman actively pursued martin after he was told not to
Fact: Zimmerman's pursuit led to a confrontation
Fact: When confronted the unarmed Martin stood his ground and defended himself.
Fact: Zimmerman was losing said confrontation so he pulled a gun on an unarmed man and shot him dead

Where's the justice?


If these were actual facts then there would have been no problem convicting fatso of murder.

Do you always rely on MSNBC and CNN for all your "facts"?
 
2013-07-15 03:00:52 PM  

EdgeRunner: 2) If you're cutting through a neighborhood late at night, even your own neighborhood, there's a good chance the neighborhood watch will notice you. If they're stupid and ignore Rule 1, they might even follow you. Go straight home, call the cops if you feel really uncomfortable, but don't be an idiot and try to take them on yourself. That person could be armed, and no matter what your 17-yr-old hormones are telling you, you're not indestructable.

Further questions for consideration: If Zimmerman had been unarmed and Martin just beat the crap out of him, how many charges would Martin be facing right now? What if he had jumped an actual plainclothes deputy instead of a wanna-be cop? Given that there were witnesses, how does any outcome of this fight go in Martin's favor?


1) Martin had no way of knowing that Zimmerman was on the neighborhood watch.  For all he knew, Zimmerman was going to rob him.
2) Zimmerman wasn't a cop.  As shocking a statement as this is for fark - a cop would have behaved more responsibly and would have been less likely to end up killing someone for suspicion of walking while black.
 
2013-07-15 03:01:26 PM  

Kittypie070: Ninepoundhammer: Let's remove all subjectivity from this for a moment:

Fact: Martin was an unarmed 17 year old breaking no laws or standards of behavior
Fact: Zimmerman is not an officer of the law
Fact: Zimmerman actively pursued martin after he was told not to
Fact: Zimmerman's pursuit led to a confrontation
Fact: When confronted the unarmed Martin stood his ground and defended himself.
Fact: Zimmerman was losing said confrontation so he pulled a gun on an unarmed man and shot him dead

Where's the justice?

If I could smack the SMART button a dozen times, I would.


That's how I see it, but the problem is that there is no evidence of what actually triggered the physical altercation. Disobeying a dispatcher's orders is not a crime in this case, and no one knows how the fight began aside from Zimmerman and Martin. Alas, only one of those people lived to tell the story, and that's pretty much all the jury had to work with. You're not allowed to fill in the gaps with your imagination or prejudices as a juror, and that is a fundamental principle of our judicial system. Let us not forget that in the United States, we prefer to set a guilty person free than to incarcerate an innocent person out of an overabundance of caution. I am pretty sure every juror thinks Zimmerman is a piece of shiat and that the outcome of this trial does not bring justice to Martin's family, but they followed strict instructions and considered only the admissible evidence. So it goes.
 
2013-07-15 03:04:07 PM  

saintstryfe: The one with the Gun should REALLY be the one with the control... the fact is if he just had called the police and listened to their instructions, he wouldn't have been in all this. But then he couldn't have been the hero in his own mind and he wouldn't have gotten the chance to shoot a black kid and get away with it.


I would argue that Zimmerman showed a reasonable amount of restraint in using his weapon. According the Lauer 911 call Zimmerman was screaming for help for at least 30-40 seconds while getting pummeled, and we know Lauer called 911 some time after the confrontation started. That is, at a minimum, 30-40 seconds longer than the law obligates him to take a beating, because the self-defense laws in Florida (and most states, for that matter) don't actually require you to take any punishment before you can claim self-defense.

Zimmerman also fired a single shot, the minimum needed to stop the threat to himself - he didn't pump Martin's body full of lead and empty the clip into him, he didn't fire wildly into the air. He shot once, stopped the threat to himself, and put away the gun.

Saying Zimmerman "should have been in control" doesn't excuse the fact that Martin showed not one iota of control when he continued to hit Zimmerman.

Mike Chewbacca: We don't expect minors to make good decisions. That's why they can't vote, drink, or buy smokes. Zimmerman was the adult, and the "responsible" authority figure. It was his most basic job to keep his neighborhood safe, and yet because of him a kid from his neighborhood died.


What 17 year old doesn't know that beating a man while he's helpless, on the ground, and screaming for help is wrong? What 17 year old doesn't know that he should stop when an adult (John Good) yells at him to stop and that he's going to call the police? Again, you are attempting to lay all of the responsibility on Zimmerman, while absolving Martin of any part in the altercation. Just because a 17 year old is technically a minor gives him the right to mercilessly beat you, and completely abrogates your own right to defend yourself? The defense of "he was just a stupid kid" goes only so far, and Martin's actions pushed past the boundary of stupidity and into willful malice and actively attempting to seriously injure another person.

Regardless of what happened during the initial confrontation while Zimmerman was on the phone with the non-emergency dispatcher, regardless of what happened to initiate the confrontation, Martin is directly responsible for his behavior immediately prior to the shooting, and it is that behavior which was the direct cause of his death. Not "walking while black," not "being profiled" - continuing to assault a man who was helpless, on the ground and screaming for help.

People love to forget that Martin refused to stop hitting Zimmerman when Zimmerman obviously didn't want any part of the fight, and people love to forget that Martin-the-minor ignored an adult that directly told him to stop, and directly told him that the police were being called on him.

Martin was directly responsible for his own death, and he never would have been shot had he stopped beating on Zimmerman at any point prior to being shot.

People love to forget that last part, so let me say it again: Martin never would have been shot if he'd shown one once of self control and quit beating on Zimmerman when either Zimmerman started yelling for help, or when John Good told him to stop.
 
2013-07-15 03:05:03 PM  

Elegy: Martin never would have been shot if he'd shown one once of self control and quit beating on Zimmerman when either Zimmerman started yelling for help, or when John Good told him to stop.


Martin would not have been shot if Zimmerman had shown one ounce of self control and not initiated the confrontation.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-15 03:09:11 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: vpb: Before it was passed you had to use every available means of escape before using deadly force. Not you can "stand your ground".

Again, the defense did not argue that Martin had no obligation to flee (stand your ground). They argued straight self defense, based on the argument that Martin was being beaten, and had a reasonable fear of grievous harm or loss of life. This defense is in no way impacted by the presence or absence of "stand your ground" laws and is the same in every jurisdiction.


They didn't show that Zimmerman had no avenue of escape because they didn't have to because of the changes made to the FL code by the stand your ground law, so yes they did use the SYG law and no it isn't the same in every jurisdiction.

The judges instructions to the jury specifically cites the stand your ground law, and even includes the phrase "stand your ground"

If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in anyplace where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it wasnecessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to preventthe commission of a forcible felony.

I don't know if you are an NRA troll or uninformed, but you are wrong.
 
2013-07-15 03:09:14 PM  

BlastYoBoots: so the way we see it Zimmerman seems like he planned this out: "If I can taunt this kid into throwing ONE punch, enough to show the police on my face that he fought, then I can pull out my concealed weapon and shoot him."


Then why did this criminal mastermind Zimmerman wait at least 30-40 seconds -the length of the screaming on the Lauer tape - before he used his weapon?

Why did he scream for so long for someone, anyone, to help him?

Why didn't he just plug the Martin right away and be done with it, if he wanted to kill a black kid so badly?

Why did he risk someone intervening in the fight and stopping his carefully crafted plan to kill an innocent child by screaming for help for so long?

Your theory is stupid. I will forego commenting on the collective intelligence of your family, but know that I want to.
 
2013-07-15 03:10:31 PM  

dittybopper: Befuddled: If Trayvon Martin was this super-thug to Zimmerman's sissy-boy as the Zimmerman defenders portray, then why wasn't Zimmerman pounded flat? In real fights, where the one winning wants to do real harm to the other, the one getting the worst of it will be in no shape whatsoever to fight back as the one getting pounded will be unconscious. If Zimmerman's bullshiat account was true and Trayvon Martin was on top raining down blows, Zimmerman would not have been able to shoot Trayvon Martin.

The fight lasted 40 seconds, give or take.

Pretty hard to pound someone so hard that they lose consciousness in that short a time, even if you are significantly stronger or have better skills.  It would have to be a "Mike Tyson in top form against a small malnourished Asian woman" for it to happen that quickly.

It's actually pretty damned hard thing to do:  I have a scar on my forehead from when I got hit straight on with a billy club.  Took 13 stitches to close the wound.  I was on my feet when it happened, and I was on my feet afterwards, and I never lost consciousness*.  It looked nasty, too, because I was bleeding all over my face.

I'm not claiming bad-ass status here, I'm just pointing out that your apparently preconceived notion of how things must have happened isn't necessarily true.  It takes a *LOT* to knock someone out, and the difference between the amount force required to knock them out, and to kill them, is very, very small.

*Things *DID* go black for a second or two, but I stayed on my feet.


If you think fights last more than 40 secs, you haven't been in many.
 
2013-07-15 03:13:56 PM  

qorkfiend: not initiated the confrontation


Pick your reply:

1. Initiating the confrontation was not the predominant factor leading to Martin's death - continuing to beat a helpless man who was screaming for someone to intervene was the predominant factor leading to his death.
2. Proof of your claim, please. I would also suggest that if you withheld such crucial evidence from the prosecution team, there are some people that would like to have a word with you.
3. The prosecution's own witness Rachel Jeantel said that she heard Martin speak to Zimmerman first.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-15 03:15:07 PM  

dittybopper: Ironically, gun control is most often aimed squarely at minorities.  In fact, it's the last real vestige of the old Jim Crow laws, but we're beating them back bit by bit.


Uh, no.  Trying to conflate gun nuttery with civil rights is too bizarre to take seriously.
 
2013-07-15 03:15:13 PM  

dittybopper: Plus, according to George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin essentially sucker-punched him and then knocked him to the ground.


dittybopper: The fight lasted 40 seconds, give or take.


Wow!  With all this information it's a wonder you weren't called as a witness in this trial.  Maybe it's a psychic thing?

Or are you one of those simpletons  given to believing every narrative you hear a defense team throw down during the course of a trial in order to generate reasonable doubt?

Hint: it's more of a "what if" than a "these are the facts."
 
2013-07-15 03:16:06 PM  
when this took place in 2012 it occured to me, how does a gated community not have surveillance cameras???
 
2013-07-15 03:18:43 PM  
Zimmerman: I'm gonna be a hero and catch me a street hood up to no good.

Martin: I'm gonna be a hero and teach this perv/weirdo not to target me or any other kids ever again.

One hero was out-gunned.
 
2013-07-15 03:20:39 PM  

king_nacho: AdolfOliverPanties: Sadly, Zimmerman was not guilty of the charges.  The problem is the law in the state of Florida.  All those assholes who pushed for the stand your ground law to be enacted are have blood on their hands along with Zimmerman.  They made what he did legal.

This was a racist, wannabe cop vigilante with a short temper, a shiatty brain that makes horrible decisions and a chip on his shoulder.

Gun owners have a responsibility to be the cooler head, to go away from conflict and confrontation when they are carrying.  They are the ones with the responsibility to ONLY use the weapon in self-defense, and to NOT go looking for situations where they may be forced to defend themselves with it.

Zimmerman went looking for trouble, but according to the farked up Florida law, he did nothing illegal.

He is responsible for Martin's death, but not guilty of a crime.

I think you still would have been hard to find a jury that would convict no matter what the law said.


Thats is one of the many MANY reasons we have a florida tag.
 
2013-07-15 03:22:33 PM  

Elegy: BlastYoBoots: so the way we see it Zimmerman seems like he planned this out: "If I can taunt this kid into throwing ONE punch, enough to show the police on my face that he fought, then I can pull out my concealed weapon and shoot him."

Then why did this criminal mastermind Zimmerman wait at least 30-40 seconds -the length of the screaming on the Lauer tape - before he used his weapon?

Why did he scream for so long for someone, anyone, to help him?

Why didn't he just plug the Martin right away and be done with it, if he wanted to kill a black kid so badly?

Why did he risk someone intervening in the fight and stopping his carefully crafted plan to kill an innocent child by screaming for help for so long?

Your theory is stupid. I will forego commenting on the collective intelligence of your family, but know that I want to.


Well, because he wanted to get away with it? Screaming for help within earshot of a 911 operator clearly helped his case. And it certainly wouldn't have gotten Martin to stop if he was provoked into the fight by a few well-placed taunts and pejoratives, as this theory goes; it'd be exactly the sort of ego-feeding you would want if some blowhard taunted you hard enough for you to strike the first blow.

Here's a cry that would have been more effective at getting Martin off him, if that was what he wanted: "Stop, I have a gun, I'll shoot!"

In fact, if he'd really gotten Martin to go down on top of him, then screaming long enough for a witness to show up would have actually *helped* his case. All the witness would have seen is Martin on top of him, Zimmerman in a vulnerable position, and the "tragic" weapon discharge. He'd have been cleared twice as fast.

With all the vagueness in this case, there's at least one consensus my family has: Zimmerman was no "idiot".

But I do agree, this is a total csb, and we're rattling an opinion out of our asses based on subjective personality judgment. I don't pretend to know what really happened.
 
2013-07-15 03:23:45 PM  

EdgeRunner: 1) If you're in the neighborhood watch, that's all you're supposed to do: WATCH. Do not pursue, do not confront, you're not a cop and it's not your job. You can take photos of suspicious characters, write down their license plates if they're driving, but don't go any further than that and absolutely don't get out of your car to follow anyone. It's a real good way to get jumped, especially since it's late and you're tailing people, which makes YOU look pretty suspicious yourself.


Isn't that what Zimmerman was trying to do, watch?  Martin went between buildings where Zimmerman could no longer see him.  According to him, and there is no evidence or testimony that disputes that, he was merely trying to keep visual contact with Martin so that he could guide the police.

Whether or not it was a wise decision given what we know now is debatable, but based on what Zimmerman knew at that moment in time, it doesn't seem all that unreasonable that he might get out of his vehicle to see where Martin ran to.
 
2013-07-15 03:24:32 PM  

Blathering Idjut: Or are you one of those simpletons  given to believing every narrative you hear a defense team throw down during the course of a trial in order to generate reasonable doubt?

Hint: it's more of a "what if" than a "these are the facts.


Or, maybe he watched the trial and watched the testimony of the prosecution's own witnesses and the presentation of the physical and forensic evidence?

You certainly live up to your fark handle.

gittlebass: when this took place in 2012 it occured to me, how does a gated community not have surveillance cameras???


"Gated community" is something of misnomer that has been bandied about in the media quite a bit. It leads you to think of an upper class golf course community, doesn't it? The neighborhood was actually a lower-middle class, multiracial community of split-level town homes. Tract housing, basically, and tract housing so cheap that the exterior of the town homes didn't vary.

This is the back of the town homes, but I'm sure you get the idea:
i.imgur.com

IIRC some of the surveillance cameras inside the community were inoperable at the time of the event. The one camera that was entered into evidence was near the clubhouse, and showed nothing more than Zimmerman driving past. It evidently didn't have IR capabilities, so the footage was barely recognizable at that.
 
2013-07-15 03:26:57 PM  

Ninepoundhammer: Let's remove all subjectivity from this for a moment:


Fact: When confronted the unarmed Martin stood his ground and defended himself.
Fact: Zimmerman was losing said confrontation so he pulled a gun on an unarmed man and shot him dead

Where's the justice?


Where is the evidence that Zimmerman confronted the unarmed Martin?  All the evidence seems to point to him following Martin, and when Martin recognized this he decided to confront Zimmerman.  He also followed Zimmerman back to his car which means he then became the aggressor and cannot claim self defense.

Had Martin just continued to walk home and eat his skittles and watch TV he'd be alive.  But he decided to fight someone who he didn't know was armed because he liked to fight and prove he was a badass, which there is ample evidence of as well.

Both men acted stupid that night, but to try to put all the blame on Zimmerman is stupid, and the jury agreed.
 
2013-07-15 03:29:52 PM  

Karac: 1) Martin had no way of knowing that Zimmerman was on the neighborhood watch.  For all he knew, Zimmerman was going to rob him.


For all he knew, Zimmerman was a cop.
 
2013-07-15 03:30:43 PM  

Elegy: What 17 year old doesn't know that beating a man while he's helpless,


Elegy: continuing to beat a helpless man who was screaming


Considering the fact that Zimmerman was armed and shot Trayvon Martin to death, I'm going to have to call shenanigans on your use of the word "helpless." I would consider neither of the people involved in this altercation to be helpless. I would consider one to be a minor walking around his own neighborhood at a reasonable time of evening, and the other to be a person in a position of authority and responsibility. It was not Trayvon Martin's job to avoid George Zimmerman. It was George Zimmerman's job to keep his neighborhood safe. I will not blame a teenager for making a bad decision (choosing to confront Zimmerman instead of running home). I will blame an adult authority figure for making several bad decisions in a row that directly led to the death of a teenager.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-15 03:35:45 PM  

Cataholic: What is commonly referred to a "Stand Your Ground" is actually at 776.013.  776.012 was enacted in 1974 and states what is basically the law of self defense in almost every state.  Don't get too hung up on the language of the jury instructions.  They are standardized and still in flux due to several recent Fla Supreme Court rulings.


Nope.  The stand your ground law modified several sections of law including 776.12 and and created several new sections including 776.13.

SYG amended 716.12 to include the line:
(2)Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
"Standing your ground" was not permitted before the SYG law.  It would never have been in a judges instructions before the SYG law, it would have been grounds for a mistrial.

Here's the 2004 version if you want to look. (which I doubt)
 
2013-07-15 03:37:22 PM  
Too bad there wasn't anyone watching the whole thing, out a window or something. An eye witness could really shed some light on things. Combine an eye witness testimony and what we know of the crime scene, and you could create a pretty clear picture of what happened. Somebody good at claymation could even do an animation.
 
2013-07-15 03:38:51 PM  

dittybopper: Karac: 1) Martin had no way of knowing that Zimmerman was on the neighborhood watch.  For all he knew, Zimmerman was going to rob him.

For all he knew, Zimmerman was a cop.


Did Zimmerman identify himself as a cop? If not, then Martin had no reason at all to believe he was a cop.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-15 03:41:00 PM  

Ninepoundhammer: Let's remove all subjectivity from this for a moment:

Fact: Martin was an unarmed 17 year old breaking no laws or standards of behavior
Fact: Zimmerman is not an officer of the law
Fact: Zimmerman actively pursued martin after he was told not to
Fact: Zimmerman's pursuit led to a confrontation
Fact: When confronted the unarmed Martin stood his ground and defended himself.
Fact: Zimmerman was losing said confrontation so he pulled a gun on an unarmed man and shot him dead

Where's the justice?


The justice is in not being judged on facts that are not relevant to the case like the first four, pure speculation (#5) and perfectly legal (#6 unless you can prove #5)
 
2013-07-15 03:41:31 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: Sadly, Zimmerman was not guilty of the charges.  The problem is the law in the state of Florida.  All those assholes who pushed for the stand your ground law to be enacted are have blood on their hands along with Zimmerman.  They made what he did legal.

This was a racist, wannabe cop vigilante with a short temper, a shiatty brain that makes horrible decisions and a chip on his shoulder.

Gun owners have a responsibility to be the cooler head, to go away from conflict and confrontation when they are carrying.  They are the ones with the responsibility to ONLY use the weapon in self-defense, and to NOT go looking for situations where they may be forced to defend themselves with it.

Zimmerman went looking for trouble, but according to the farked up Florida law, he did nothing illegal.

He is responsible for Martin's death, but not guilty of a crime.


IVe never agreed with you on anything before, but this post makes alot of sense.

Laws that allow fat shiatbag wannabe cowboys to walk around with loaded guns looking for trouble, and let them off scot-free when they kill someone after finding trouble, are the problem here.
 
2013-07-15 03:41:32 PM  

king_nacho: antidisestablishmentarianism: Guilty or not if he would have stayed in his car this whole thing would have never happened.

You haven't got a clue what would have happened. If Martin hadn't punched him in the face, this wouldn't have happened either.


EXACTLY .. Gee.. which one of those two things are legal? getting out of your car (even if ASKED not told if you do that is  illegal and you can go to jail) and following someone or assalting someone (even if he was some crazy cracker as his girlfriend testified he said) ??
I wonder what would have happened if Trayvon would of just said My parents live right over there and I am just going home instead of trying attacking him and trying to bash his head into the concrete?? Just curious?
 
2013-07-15 03:42:43 PM  

Lawnchair: BojanglesPaladin: Befuddled: It's kind of ironic that the safest place for Zimmerman now would be a state that doesn't allow concealed carry for any and all idiots that want it and doesn't have a "He's comin' right for us" "Stand yer ground" law.

Again, there was NO STAND YOUR GROUND defense in play here.

Keep repeating that to yourself and anyone else you meet until the urge to show everyone your ignorance passes.

The two nominally separate strategies are inextricably linked.


No. No they are NOT. Jesus, will you people who didn't follow the trial cool it with your legal GEDs? The defense was self-defense. SYG has to do with an obligation to retreat. He had no way to do that. That was NOT the defense and they are not linked. Not in this case.
 
2013-07-15 03:43:23 PM  

aircraftkiller: It still amazes me that people think an overweight 29 year old could "stalk" a young guy who could likely have run much faster than Z could walk

They're both stupid: Z for getting out of the car and carrying a gun in violation of Neighborhood Watch regulations, T for not just running back to his house and calling the police. I find it hard to get terribly outraged about two stupid people doing what stupid people do. This kind of thing isn't uncommon

/Don't start pretending I'm a conservative or something, I've earned the ire of both "sides" to this trial


Oh really?  Why should Martin have to run away?  He was being stalked by a strange man in his own neighborhood, he had a right to self-defense.

Trayvon Martin  stood his ground, and for that he was killed and his murderer walks the streets.
 
2013-07-15 03:44:49 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: Considering the fact that Zimmerman was armed and shot Trayvon Martin to death, I'm going to have to call shenanigans on your use of the word "helpless." I would consider neither of the people involved in this altercation to be helpless. I would consider one to be a minor walking around his own neighborhood at a reasonable time of evening, and the other to be a person in a position of authority and responsibility.


"Physically helpless until he resorted to his last possible defense." Better? Because there is little doubt that Zimmerman couldn't break free from the attack physically.

Mike Chewbacca: It was not Trayvon Martin's job to avoid George Zimmerman. It was George Zimmerman's job to keep his neighborhood safe. I will not blame a teenager for making a bad decision (choosing to confront Zimmerman instead of running home). I will blame an adult authority figure for making several bad decisions in a row that directly led to the death of a teenager.


You keep dodging my question. I'm not asking your opinion of the confrontation, or who started it. I'm asking you about the END of the fight, when the shot was fired.

I am specifically asking you to enunciate how Martin's continued to beating of Zimmerman is justifiable in your own mind, after: a) Zimmerman obviously didn't want to fight and started screaming for help; and b) at least one other adult told Martin to stop and that he was calling the police because of Martin's continuing behavior.

I would also like you to tell me why Zimmerman's "bad" - but provably legal - decisions obligate him to take a beating and prevent from acting in self-defense from a beating that had the potential for serious injury to himself, most especially when that beating shows no sign of stopping and none of the neighbors made any motion whatsoever to physically intervene.
 
2013-07-15 03:45:06 PM  

Karac: EdgeRunner: 2) If you're cutting through a neighborhood late at night, even your own neighborhood, there's a good chance the neighborhood watch will notice you. If they're stupid and ignore Rule 1, they might even follow you. Go straight home, call the cops if you feel really uncomfortable, but don't be an idiot and try to take them on yourself. That person could be armed, and no matter what your 17-yr-old hormones are telling you, you're not indestructable.

Further questions for consideration: If Zimmerman had been unarmed and Martin just beat the crap out of him, how many charges would Martin be facing right now? What if he had jumped an actual plainclothes deputy instead of a wanna-be cop? Given that there were witnesses, how does any outcome of this fight go in Martin's favor?

1) Martin had no way of knowing that Zimmerman was on the neighborhood watch.  For all he knew, Zimmerman was going to rob him.
2) Zimmerman wasn't a cop.  As shocking a statement as this is for fark - a cop would have behaved more responsibly and would have been less likely to end up killing someone for suspicion of walking while black.


You get the point and still miss it by miles. Martin didn't know who Zimmerman was, so he could have been anything: cop, burglar, serial killer, you name it. None of those are good people to engage in a fight unless you're forced to, which Martin wasn't. Zimmerman shouldn't have followed, but Martin also shouldn't have walked back. Both had the option to avoid this mess and neither made the smart choice.

As for how Zimmerman behaved, all that's been established is he followed Martin while talking on his phone, which isn't observably different to what an off duty cop might do. There's no proof that he provoked Martin, but even assuming he did, Martin didn't need to be there to be provoked. He could have been home but apparently chose to confront Zimmerman instead, which was damned stupid. Instead of looking to point fingers at the "real villain", I think it's far more practical to look at what both individuals did wrong and try to avoid any repeat idiocy.

Myself, I was once tailed by an unmarked police car all the way to my driveway. I was coming home in the wee hours of the morning, there had been a rash of burglaries that week, and my car vaguely matched the description of one seen near the most recent break in. If I'd jumped the guy when he got out of his car to ask a few questions (and keep in mind, he never kicked on the blue lights so I didn't know what his deal was at first), my life would either be really f*cked right now or just plain finished. In the same circumstance, I've little confidence that Zimmerman or Martin would have survived what turned out to be a harmless encounter.
 
2013-07-15 03:45:20 PM  

antidisestablishmentarianism: Guilty or not if he would have stayed in his car this whole thing would have never happened.


but you ignore the kid ambushing him? seems to me that is the cause of this case.
 
2013-07-15 03:46:38 PM  

Bartman66: king_nacho: antidisestablishmentarianism: Guilty or not if he would have stayed in his car this whole thing would have never happened.

You haven't got a clue what would have happened. If Martin hadn't punched him in the face, this wouldn't have happened either.

EXACTLY .. Gee.. which one of those two things are legal? getting out of your car (even if ASKED not told if you do that is  illegal and you can go to jail) and following someone or assalting someone (even if he was some crazy cracker as his girlfriend testified he said) ??
I wonder what would have happened if Trayvon would of just said My parents live right over there and I am just going home instead of trying attacking him and trying to bash his head into the concrete?? Just curious?


Why should Trayvon Martin have to tell a stranger where he lives to justify his presence in that neighborhood? Was he committing a crime by being there? No. We don't live in a "papers, please" nation quite yet. You think it is perfectly appropriate for Trayvon Martin to prove that he deserved be in his own neighborhood, yet you are incredibly offended by the idea that George Zimmerman's bad decision-making skills cost a young man his life.
 
2013-07-15 03:48:16 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: his own neighborhood


it wasn't his neighborhood
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-15 03:49:06 PM  
One ironic thing is that CCTV cameras would have eliminated all doubt and easily convicted Zimmerman if the he attacked Martin the way the Martin supporters say, despite the stand your ground law (which was pivotal to the Zimmerman defense despite the desperate spin of the gun nuts).

But it looks to me that the Martin supporters are the same people who think surveillance cameras are the evil big brother coming to eat you up.
 
2013-07-15 03:49:21 PM  

EdgeRunner: Karac: EdgeRunner: 2) If you're cutting through a neighborhood late at night, even your own neighborhood, there's a good chance the neighborhood watch will notice you. If they're stupid and ignore Rule 1, they might even follow you. Go straight home, call the cops if you feel really uncomfortable, but don't be an idiot and try to take them on yourself. That person could be armed, and no matter what your 17-yr-old hormones are telling you, you're not indestructable.

Further questions for consideration: If Zimmerman had been unarmed and Martin just beat the crap out of him, how many charges would Martin be facing right now? What if he had jumped an actual plainclothes deputy instead of a wanna-be cop? Given that there were witnesses, how does any outcome of this fight go in Martin's favor?

1) Martin had no way of knowing that Zimmerman was on the neighborhood watch.  For all he knew, Zimmerman was going to rob him.
2) Zimmerman wasn't a cop.  As shocking a statement as this is for fark - a cop would have behaved more responsibly and would have been less likely to end up killing someone for suspicion of walking while black.

You get the point and still miss it by miles. Martin didn't know who Zimmerman was, so he could have been anything: cop, burglar, serial killer, you name it. None of those are good people to engage in a fight unless you're forced to, which Martin wasn't. Zimmerman shouldn't have followed, but Martin also shouldn't have walked back. Both had the option to avoid this mess and neither made the smart choice.

As for how Zimmerman behaved, all that's been established is he followed Martin while talking on his phone, which isn't observably different to what an off duty cop might do. There's no proof that he provoked Martin, but even assuming he did, Martin didn't need to be there to be provoked. He could have been home but apparently chose to confront Zimmerman instead, which was damned stupid. Instead of looking to point fingers at the "real villain", ...


So Martin was supposed to consider the possibility that Zimmerman was a cop and act on that assumption, But Zimmerman can't have been expected to have considered that Martin was just walking abck fro the convenience store rather than a dangerous criminal who needed immediate apprehension.
 
2013-07-15 03:50:30 PM  
Let me see if I can follow Farklogic here...
If a white guy is following you through your neighborhood, that's a valid reason to use force, up to lethal force in self defense.
If a black guy is sitting on your chest, smashing your head into concrete, you're a racist pussy if you use lethal force.

Is that right?
 
2013-07-15 03:51:43 PM  
"Ladies of the jury, I ask you look at exhibit 12a, a photograph of my client George Zimmerman's penis. Look at how small it is and you tell me, is this the size of a penis that could win in a fair fight? I mean seriously, we can barely even call my client a man his penis is so small. You've heard testimony from my client's wife, how he never satisfies her in bed. Of course my client needed to carry a gun! "Knock Knock" - and please, do not hold this against my client if this joke offends you - "who's there?" you ask... "it's Treyvon Martin with his big black penis". That is what my client was truly afraid of, aren't we all?"

- Mark O'Mara
 
2013-07-15 03:52:59 PM  

Elegy: You keep dodging my question


I KEEP dodging your question? You've responded to me twice now, including this comment that I'm quoting. Hyperbole, much?

Elegy: I am specifically asking you to enunciate how Martin's continued to beating of Zimmerman is justifiable in your own mind, after: a) Zimmerman obviously didn't want to fight and started screaming for help; and b) at least one other adult told Martin to stop and that he was calling the police because of Martin's continuing behavior.


It isn't justifiable. I also don't see Zimmerman's actions as justifiable. However, one person's unjustifiable actions resulted in a broken nose and the other's in the death of a minor.

EdgeRunner: As for how Zimmerman behaved, all that's been established is he followed Martin while talking on his phone, which isn't observably different to what an off duty cop might do


But Zimmerman wasn't an off duty cop. And if he HAD been a cop, all he would have had to do is flash his badge and say, "What are you doing around, young man?":But since he wasn't a cop, he couldn't do that, and so Martin assumed the worst (that some guy was up to no good and was a threat to his safety, and it turns out that was exactly the case). Zimmerman could have shouted from his car, "Hey, I'm the neighborhood watch! What's going on here?" But he didn't do that because he just KNEW Trayvon Martin was in the process of committing a crime.
 
2013-07-15 03:54:54 PM  

What_Would_Jimi_Do: Mike Chewbacca: his own neighborhood

it wasn't his neighborhood


It was his dad's fiance's neighborhood. He had every right to be there. You know that, you're just splitting hairs.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-15 03:58:27 PM  

phenn: Lawnchair: BojanglesPaladin: Befuddled: It's kind of ironic that the safest place for Zimmerman now would be a state that doesn't allow concealed carry for any and all idiots that want it and doesn't have a "He's comin' right for us" "Stand yer ground" law.

Again, there was NO STAND YOUR GROUND defense in play here.

Keep repeating that to yourself and anyone else you meet until the urge to show everyone your ignorance passes.

The two nominally separate strategies are inextricably linked.

No. No they are NOT. Jesus, will you people who didn't follow the trial cool it with your legal GEDs? The defense was self-defense. SYG has to do with an obligation to retreat. He had no way to do that. That was NOT the defense and they are not linked. Not in this case.


SYG was used it's not a matter of opinion, it's a verifiable fact.  Zimmerman didn't have his back to the wall, he was in the open and he followed Martin.  Those would have been important factors if not for SYG. (pdf warning)

It doesn't matter how many times you claim otherwise, SYG was used in Zimmermans defense.  It's not a gray area or a matter of opinion it's a verifyable fact.

Claiming it wasn't is dishonest.  I imagine the people claiming otherwise are gun nuts trying to protect the SYG law.
 
2013-07-15 04:00:45 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: Bartman66: king_nacho: antidisestablishmentarianism: Guilty or not if he would have stayed in his car this whole thing would have never happened.

You haven't got a clue what would have happened. If Martin hadn't punched him in the face, this wouldn't have happened either.

EXACTLY .. Gee.. which one of those two things are legal? getting out of your car (even if ASKED not told if you do that is  illegal and you can go to jail) and following someone or assalting someone (even if he was some crazy cracker as his girlfriend testified he said) ??
I wonder what would have happened if Trayvon would of just said My parents live right over there and I am just going home instead of trying attacking him and trying to bash his head into the concrete?? Just curious?

Why should Trayvon Martin have to tell a stranger where he lives to justify his presence in that neighborhood? Was he committing a crime by being there? No. We don't live in a "papers, please" nation quite yet. You think it is perfectly appropriate for Trayvon Martin to prove that he deserved be in his own neighborhood, yet you are incredibly offended by the idea that George Zimmerman's bad decision-making skills cost a young man his life.


So again... so instead of telling him he lived there instead attack the guy?? really? is this your argument?
 
2013-07-15 04:02:37 PM  

dittybopper: EdgeRunner: 1) If you're in the neighborhood watch, that's all you're supposed to do: WATCH. Do not pursue, do not confront, you're not a cop and it's not your job. You can take photos of suspicious characters, write down their license plates if they're driving, but don't go any further than that and absolutely don't get out of your car to follow anyone. It's a real good way to get jumped, especially since it's late and you're tailing people, which makes YOU look pretty suspicious yourself.

Isn't that what Zimmerman was trying to do, watch?  Martin went between buildings where Zimmerman could no longer see him.  According to him, and there is no evidence or testimony that disputes that, he was merely trying to keep visual contact with Martin so that he could guide the police.

Whether or not it was a wise decision given what we know now is debatable, but based on what Zimmerman knew at that moment in time, it doesn't seem all that unreasonable that he might get out of his vehicle to see where Martin ran to.


It's stupid for two obvious reasons:

1) Zimmerman thought Martin looked suspicious, but didn't witness him committing any actual crimes. There was no need to keep the police informed of his whereabouts because he hadn't done anything worthy of investigation.

2) If Martin really was up to no good, he might have had backup. Gun or no gun, Zimmerman would have had no chance against two or more assailants, especially if they were armed as well.

Face it, his actions were both pointless and dangerous, and though it's very likely Martin escalated the situation, there would have been no situation at all if Zimmerman hadn't created one.
 
2013-07-15 04:03:09 PM  
To The Escape Zeppelin!
All the evidence indicates that Zimmerman followed because Trayvon was wandering around a neighborhood, on foot, at night, in a hoodie not because he was black.

Riiiiight.


TheShavingofOccam123
illegals

Nope, no racism at all.
 
2013-07-15 04:04:52 PM  

king_nacho: antidisestablishmentarianism: Guilty or not if he would have stayed in his car this whole thing would have never happened.

You haven't got a clue what would have happened. If Martin hadn't punched him in the face, this wouldn't have happened either.


So Martin would have run down his car and punched his face through the windshield?
 
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