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(New Europe)   A how to guide to circumvent building laws: Welcome to Greece, where a building permit may be impossible but there is a way around it. | Note: You may need one of them 1 or 2 square meter disposable churches for this to work   (neurope.eu) divider line 47
    More: Asinine, Greece, faiths, Greek Orthodox Church, european language, roofs  
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6271 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Jul 2013 at 11:37 AM (39 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-15 10:47:53 AM
In my neck of the woods, we still build entire new rooms without bothering to get a permit.
 
2013-07-15 11:39:21 AM
woo, going to Greece a week today

unrelated but Lady J doesnt care, Lady J excited
 
2013-07-15 11:40:41 AM
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-07-15 11:40:48 AM
Greece is an awfully good guide to what can and will happen in the U.S.... except the common people won't get away with the bribin', just the corporate elite.
 
2013-07-15 11:43:55 AM

nekom: In my neck of the woods, we still build entire new rooms without bothering to get a permit.


They do in Los Angeles, still, too. Gets to be a lot of when the house is either sold or goes into foreclosure.

/surprise! Here's a 30K demo bill that you weren't counting on when you bought the house. Oh, you really thought that the bank was gonna fix that? Ha!
 
2013-07-15 11:44:59 AM

d23: Greece is an awfully good guide to what can and will happen in the U.S.... except the common people won't get away with the bribin', just the corporate elite.


The common greek culture is one of corruption and failure to pay taxes.  Their tax men are all elected and as a result the taxes are never collected and the tax man keeps his job.  This ingrained culture is one reason they're in such dire straights.
 
2013-07-15 11:45:05 AM
Was that Google Translate, or does that author no speak-a the eeeenglsh so good?
 
2013-07-15 11:47:03 AM

Peki: nekom: In my neck of the woods, we still build entire new rooms without bothering to get a permit.

They do in Los Angeles, still, too. Gets to be a lot of when the house is either sold or goes into foreclosure.

/surprise! Here's a 30K demo bill that you weren't counting on when you bought the house. Oh, you really thought that the bank was gonna fix that? Ha!


Well I would imagine LA keeps better records than they do here.  When the vacant house next to my uncle's burned, I think you're supposed to get demolition permits but my uncle just called a guy who had a front end loader to knock it over, and the fire dept. let it burn into the foundation.  Rural living and all that.
 
2013-07-15 11:47:06 AM
"Greece is the leading EU Member State in illegal constructions, of all kinds."

Is this the thread where we whine about how austerity is what is causing Greece problems?
www.neurope.eu

Why does this parking lot have 4 churches?
 
2013-07-15 11:48:08 AM

Lady J: woo, going to Greece a week today

unrelated but Lady J doesnt care, Lady J excited


Damn. Have a good time. And, as always, pics or it didn't happen :)
 
2013-07-15 11:48:23 AM

FrancoFile: Was that Google Translate, or does that author no speak-a the eeeenglsh so good?


I assume this Greek author speaks English as a second language, so the latter.
 
2013-07-15 11:50:03 AM
The "doctor" is a private "facilitator" present in the corridors in the various services dealing with the public who facilitates citizens to get what they need, i.e. documents, permits, certificates, etc., The "doctor" will collect for and on the behalf of the "system" the bribe, so there will be no physical contact between the "briber" and the final "bribee" (bribee, like employee)

upload.wikimedia.org

Wanted for questioning.
 
2013-07-15 11:57:27 AM
Corruption encourages regulation, regulation encourages corruption.
This is a perfect circle of governance run amuck.
 
2013-07-15 11:57:59 AM
Mrs Demented is Greek, and she will quickly rail on about corrupt construction in Greece if given the chance.

Her story: Buildings everywhere with rebar sticking up from the roof (as if a 2nd story is going to be built)... the building is classified as unfinished, and therefore is not taxed, even though it was only even intended to be a one-story building.

/Something like that, it's been a while since she's gone on a rant about it
//I'll show her this article later to get her to start one
 
2013-07-15 11:59:50 AM

nekom: Well I would imagine LA keeps better records than they do here.  When the vacant house next to my uncle's burned, I think you're supposed to get demolition permits but my uncle just called a guy who had a front end loader to knock it over, and the fire dept. let it burn into the foundation.  Rural living and all that.


Well, yeah that helps. But there's only records if someone records it. Most of the people have no interest in telling the City of L.A. that they've added an extra 200 sq ft of living space to their house. Property taxes tend to adjust soon afterwards.

/we're desperately trying to hold on to a property that's got only $900 a year in taxes in surburban L.A. It would be at least 3-4 times that if we got adjusted. No, we haven't made any additions, but my fiancé's family has. God help 'em if they ever need an inspector to come.
 
2013-07-15 12:01:48 PM

PhDemented: Her story: Buildings everywhere with rebar sticking up from the roof (as if a 2nd story is going to be built)... the building is classified as unfinished, and therefore is not taxed, even though it was only even intended to be a one-story building.


Leading to the expression "Rome wasn't completed in a day, Athens wasn't completed."
 
2013-07-15 12:05:29 PM

Lady J: woo, going to Greece a week today

unrelated but Lady J doesnt care, Lady J excited


Which parts are you going to? I went for three weeks last summer and it was spectacular.
 
2013-07-15 12:12:33 PM
Seems like they need to do a combination of colonialism and Office Space on Greece.

First, get a large team of retired civil servants from the clean parts of Europe - Germany, England, Denmark, etc. - I'm talking thousands of them.  Put them in charge of every ministerial and sub-ministerial organization. There should be at least 1 in every government office building.

Then over the next 6 months, every government employee comes to a warehouse for 3 days.  They are interviewed about what they do, who their boss is, who their coworkers are, etc.

Then they use a watered-down version of the NSA's software to build the connectivity map of all those people.  Cross-reference that with tax-collection rates, etc.

The end result is that they know which departments to totally eliminate, and which people to permanently bar from government employment.  The money saved on civil service salaries and pensions gets dropped into the economy in productive ways (infrastructure, education, export promotion, tax rebates to small businesses).  Oh, and there's a tax amnesty program too.  You fess up and pay some % of back taxes you've avoided, and then you're clean going forward.
 
2013-07-15 12:14:40 PM

drkats: Lady J: woo, going to Greece a week today

Which parts are you going to? I went for three weeks last summer and it was spectacular.


The service can be a little stultifying, so I'd recommend the reception and the honeymoon.
 
2013-07-15 12:14:41 PM
www.animeniacs.com
 
2013-07-15 12:15:43 PM
There's an old saying that the national sport of Greece is tax-evasion. Obviously they're pretty damned good at bribery, too. :)
 
2013-07-15 12:17:16 PM
weknowmemes.com

How did this country ever get into the EU? This shiat makes Italy sound like Germany (maybe that is why).
 
2013-07-15 12:34:44 PM

spawn73: "Greece is the leading EU Member State in illegal constructions, of all kinds."

Is this the thread where we whine about how austerity is what is causing Greece problems?
[www.neurope.eu image 620x345]

Why does this parking lot have 4 churches?


Those are pre-built churches that you can use to bypass zoning and construction bylaws.

The article tries to convey this.  My understanding is this: it's so hard to get a building permit that it's easier to build a shrine, which they say won't fall down because Jesus or something, and then get the utilities in the saint's name.

You then have to go into the shrine once a year and have a glass of water and/or allow pilgrims.
 
2013-07-15 12:38:54 PM

Igloo: [www.animeniacs.com image 464x352]


*shakes fist* Was gonna post exactly that.
 
2013-07-15 12:39:48 PM

spawn73: "Greece is the leading EU Member State in illegal constructions, of all kinds."

Is this the thread where we whine about how austerity is what is causing Greece problems?
[www.neurope.eu image 620x345]

Why does this parking lot have 4 churches?


That parking lot in particular was in need of multiple faith generators. The more they build, the holier it gets.
 
2013-07-15 12:40:01 PM
i.chzbgr.com

Poor financial self-control is only part of Greece's problems, it seems... a horrible inability to place and maintain basic civil services without creating an administration singularity is apparently another.  That the crazy afthereton scheme I just read is the faster way to go tells you how bad the "legit" scheme is.

I mean, seriously, the Vogons would be proud of such an administrative clusterfark.
 
2013-07-15 12:40:17 PM

Dinobot: Igloo: [www.animeniacs.com image 464x352]

*shakes fist* Was gonna post exactly that.


I was kinda surprised to be the first, to be honest. It had to be done though. Had to.
 
2013-07-15 12:46:07 PM

FrancoFile: Seems like they need to do a combination of colonialism and Office Space on Greece.

First, get a large team of retired civil servants from the clean parts of Europe - Germany, England, Denmark, etc. - I'm talking thousands of them.  Put them in charge of every ministerial and sub-ministerial organization. There should be at least 1 in every government office building.

Then over the next 6 months, every government employee comes to a warehouse for 3 days.  They are interviewed about what they do, who their boss is, who their coworkers are, etc.

Then they use a watered-down version of the NSA's software to build the connectivity map of all those people.  Cross-reference that with tax-collection rates, etc.

The end result is that they know which departments to totally eliminate, and which people to permanently bar from government employment.  The money saved on civil service salaries and pensions gets dropped into the economy in productive ways (infrastructure, education, export promotion, tax rebates to small businesses).  Oh, and there's a tax amnesty program too.  You fess up and pay some % of back taxes you've avoided, and then you're clean going forward.


and then the greeks go crazy and complain about germany taking over their SOVEREIGN COUNTRY !

/you want us to fix your shiathole? fine, but we get some say in how it gets fixed. otherwise, DIAF
 
2013-07-15 12:54:25 PM
I wish that worked in Philadelphia.
 
2013-07-15 01:02:10 PM

Seraphym: [i.chzbgr.com image 500x333]

Poor financial self-control is only part of Greece's problems, it seems... a horrible inability to place and maintain basic civil services without creating an administration singularity is apparently another.  That the crazy afthereton scheme I just read is the faster way to go tells you how bad the "legit" scheme is.

I mean, seriously, the Vogons would be proud of such an administrative clusterfark.


Oh humans can do almost as well...

"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."
 
2013-07-15 01:07:34 PM

theMagni: spawn73: "Greece is the leading EU Member State in illegal constructions, of all kinds."

Is this the thread where we whine about how austerity is what is causing Greece problems?
[www.neurope.eu image 620x345]

Why does this parking lot have 4 churches?

Those are pre-built churches that you can use to bypass zoning and construction bylaws.

The article tries to convey this.  My understanding is this: it's so hard to get a building permit that it's easier to build a shrine, which they say won't fall down because Jesus or something, and then get the utilities in the saint's name.

You then have to go into the shrine once a year and have a glass of water and/or allow pilgrims.


I read the article. But it didn't explain why you'd need more than 1.
 
2013-07-15 01:12:33 PM
Well, that's what 3,000 or so years of bureaucracy will get you.

Seriously, that's messed up.
 
2013-07-15 01:14:42 PM

FrancoFile: Seems like they need to do a combination of colonialism and Office Space on Greece.

First, get a large team of retired civil servants from the clean parts of Europe - Germany, England, Denmark, etc. - I'm talking thousands of them.  Put them in charge of every ministerial and sub-ministerial organization. There should be at least 1 in every government office building.


Excellent idea. And whilst the Greeks for some reason or another, probably everyone works in the public sector, will resent it, the thing is that the countries giving them money can attach demands.

The EU and IMF has made an effort to figure out the Greek state finances for starters. What they found was that the Greek governments paperwork consisted of papers thrown in unmarked black garbage sacks, and stored in the basement of the ministry of finance.

So, the ministry of finance did, they think, have everything on record. They don't have any idea in which bags any given document is, or any list of which documents exists.

Apparently they didn't make budgets, which doesn't matter as they'd just ignore them anyway. They just borrowed money for saleries to whoever clamied to work for them.

I saw those garbage bags btw. It's not a myth. :(
 
2013-07-15 01:16:34 PM

namatad: and then the greeks go crazy and complain about germany taking over their SOVEREIGN COUNTRY !/you want us to fix your shiathole? fine, but we get some say in how it gets fixed. otherwise, DIAF


And that, folks, is how we will get our one-world government. Europe thought they could have an economic union without a political one. It's not working very well. Either you all stand together, or you all fall separate

/at least the U.S. did get that one figured out; having a large country with "states" gives us experience
 
2013-07-15 01:24:30 PM

spawn73: theMagni: spawn73: "Greece is the leading EU Member State in illegal constructions, of all kinds."

Is this the thread where we whine about how austerity is what is causing Greece problems?
[www.neurope.eu image 620x345]

Why does this parking lot have 4 churches?

Those are pre-built churches that you can use to bypass zoning and construction bylaws.

The article tries to convey this.  My understanding is this: it's so hard to get a building permit that it's easier to build a shrine, which they say won't fall down because Jesus or something, and then get the utilities in the saint's name.

You then have to go into the shrine once a year and have a glass of water and/or allow pilgrims.

I read the article. But it didn't explain why you'd need more than 1.


I think that was a Home Depot.  They weren't installing the chuches in the parking lot -- they were selling them.
 
2013-07-15 01:58:45 PM

megarian: Lady J: woo, going to Greece a week today

unrelated but Lady J doesnt care, Lady J excited

Damn. Have a good time. And, as always, pics or it didn't happen :)


Thanks. I will put any particularly AW photos in my profile
 
2013-07-15 01:59:05 PM

Peki: namatad: and then the greeks go crazy and complain about germany taking over their SOVEREIGN COUNTRY !/you want us to fix your shiathole? fine, but we get some say in how it gets fixed. otherwise, DIAF

And that, folks, is how we will get our one-world government. Europe thought they could have an economic union without a political one. It's not working very well. Either you all stand together, or you all fall separate

/at least the U.S. did get that one figured out; having a large country with "states" gives us experience


Yup. AS much as the States' Rights nuts pull us in one direction, and the REGULATE EVERYTHING nuts pull us in the other, we get the balance which is needed. Sometimes.

The EPA is one amazing example, the repeal of Glass-Steagall  the other extreme.
 
2013-07-15 01:59:45 PM

drkats: Lady J: woo, going to Greece a week today

unrelated but Lady J doesnt care, Lady J excited

Which parts are you going to? I went for three weeks last summer and it was spectacular.


Athens and Santorini. Dayum I need a holiday
 
2013-07-15 02:39:47 PM
What a disposable church might look like:

s243760778.onlinehome.us
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-07-15 02:40:56 PM
Where I live now state law exempts churches from local zoning rules. I've never heard of anybody abusing the law by relabeling a house as a church. There was an attempt to relabel a housing development as dormitories for a zoning-exempt college, but courts saw through the facade.

Before I was born my parents built a house in the country with no zoning or building paperwork required. I mean they built it, not hired licensed and insured inspector-approved companies to build it. Now there is zoning and building paperwork required even for minor work. If the building inspector notices, which he did in one case even though the house is on a quiet dirt road.
 
2013-07-15 04:05:13 PM

namatad: FrancoFile: Seems like they need to do a combination of colonialism and Office Space on Greece.

First, get a large team of retired civil servants from the clean parts of Europe - Germany, England, Denmark, etc. - I'm talking thousands of them.  Put them in charge of every ministerial and sub-ministerial organization. There should be at least 1 in every government office building.

Then over the next 6 months, every government employee comes to a warehouse for 3 days.  They are interviewed about what they do, who their boss is, who their coworkers are, etc.

Then they use a watered-down version of the NSA's software to build the connectivity map of all those people.  Cross-reference that with tax-collection rates, etc.

The end result is that they know which departments to totally eliminate, and which people to permanently bar from government employment.  The money saved on civil service salaries and pensions gets dropped into the economy in productive ways (infrastructure, education, export promotion, tax rebates to small businesses).  Oh, and there's a tax amnesty program too.  You fess up and pay some % of back taxes you've avoided, and then you're clean going forward.

and then the greeks go crazy and complain about germany taking over their SOVEREIGN COUNTRY !

/you want us to fix your shiathole? fine, but we get some say in how it gets fixed. otherwise, DIAF


No, no, no. A majority of Greeks will tell you, and too often actually believe, that all their problems are caused by foreigners. Their argument is that they are the hardest working people in the world (self-reported...) who invented civilization and live in the most beautiful country in the world, which places them above all criticism.  They want the money, but they insist on continuing to run things in their own enlightened way.
 
2013-07-15 04:48:04 PM
First, get a large team of retired civil servants from the clean parts of Europe - Germany, England, Denmark, etc. - I'm talking thousands of them.  Put them in charge of every ministerial and sub-ministerial organization. There should be at least 1 in every government office building.

 Well, I recall in Germany seeing a pile of bricks or other construction materials in the yards of most newer houses.  The reason I was given was that taxes were not assessed until the house was complete, and  (like my many projects at home I must confess) so houses just never "completed" build.

I think with new oversight, they just may learn new tricks.
 
2013-07-15 06:35:58 PM
I've worked with Greek nationals in the past; laziest people on the planet. If they spent half the energy they use avoiding work to do work, they wouldn't be hovering just above the third-world.
 
2013-07-15 06:36:41 PM

FrancoFile: Was that Google Translate, or does that author no speak-a the eeeenglsh so good?


May I be permitted to voice the suspicion that the author's English is better and more understandable than your Greek ?
 
2013-07-15 06:43:41 PM

capt.hollister: FrancoFile: Was that Google Translate, or does that author no speak-a the eeeenglsh so good?

May I be permitted to voice the suspicion that the author's English is better and more understandable than your Greek ?


You'd have a valid point if he tried to write articles in Greek.
 
2013-07-15 10:26:42 PM

JesusJuice: capt.hollister: FrancoFile: Was that Google Translate, or does that author no speak-a the eeeenglsh so good?

May I be permitted to voice the suspicion that the author's English is better and more understandable than your Greek ?

You'd have a valid point if he tried to write articles in Greek.


I think most people had no problems understanding the article.  I find it hard to agree with people who ridicule non native English speakers who write (or speak) excellent, but not prefect, English. I especially feel this way when said ridicule emanates from someone who never learned a second or third language in his/her lifetime, though in fairness I do not know if this last point applies to FF. I actually like FF, he's on my short list of favourites, but this is one case where he (or she) and I disagree.

Can we agree that we should reserve our ridicule for native English speaking journalists who can't write proper English ? their number seems to have dramatically increased in the recent past.
 
2013-07-16 11:13:19 AM

capt.hollister: JesusJuice: capt.hollister: FrancoFile: Was that Google Translate, or does that author no speak-a the eeeenglsh so good?

May I be permitted to voice the suspicion that the author's English is better and more understandable than your Greek ?

You'd have a valid point if he tried to write articles in Greek.

I think most people had no problems understanding the article.  I find it hard to agree with people who ridicule non native English speakers who write (or speak) excellent, but not prefect, English. I especially feel this way when said ridicule emanates from someone who never learned a second or third language in his/her lifetime, though in fairness I do not know if this last point applies to FF. I actually like FF, he's on my short list of favourites, but this is one case where he (or she) and I disagree.

Can we agree that we should reserve our ridicule for native English speaking journalists who can't write proper English ? their number seems to have dramatically increased in the recent past.


Heya.  I studied Spanish in HS (mostly forgotten), Russian in college (worked there a long time ago, but I only have the basics now), and learned French via immersion in my late 20s.  I still consider myself fluent in French, but I struggle to get time to practice.  I know my limits when writing in my non-native tongues and will get appropriate help.

I was more making a joke about machine translation than anything else.  I get the feeling that author of TFA used machine translation for significant parts, because of the rigidly parallel way some phrases repeat.  I had trouble following the article initially, it took me a long while to get used to his commas and quotations.

Neweurope.com should have gotten an editor to clean up the syntax, grammar, and punctuation.  Author of TFA needs an English-language editor, just like native English-speakers need editors, too.  "Professional" news organizations, sadly, often aren't professional.
 
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