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(Army Times)   Sgt. Bales, the killer of 16 Afghan civilians, had been issued a malaria drug not supposed to be used by those with traumatic brain injury (which Bales had) lest it cause homicidal episodes   (armytimes.com) divider line 99
    More: Followup, Afghans, killer, Afghan civilians, mental health disorders, McLean Hospital, foia requests, biological psychiatry, Robert Bales  
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6739 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Jul 2013 at 1:00 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-14 10:44:19 AM
"He admitted to using steroids, which can cause aggression and violence."

This soldier was a walking time bomb. We punish service people for asking for help if they have PTSD and ignore all of the danger they and those around them experience directly from that condition instead of treating it like a health crisis. Add on top traumatic brain injuries and the drugs (prescribed and not) that are all too common, and frankly it's surprising we don't have more incidents like this.

It's insanely depressing.
 
2013-07-14 11:01:29 AM
I knew the minute I heard about this guy that it was a mental health issue and not just some soldier looking for a little payback.
 
2013-07-14 11:49:49 AM

Popcorn Johnny: I knew the minute I heard about this guy that it was a mental health issue and not just some soldier looking for a little payback.


I think it's safe to say when anyone goes on a sixteen person killing spree it's a bit of a mental health issue.  It certainly isn't something right-thinking people do.  Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...
 
2013-07-14 01:03:27 PM

PhiloeBedoe: Popcorn Johnny: I knew the minute I heard about this guy that it was a mental health issue and not just some soldier looking for a little payback.

I think it's safe to say when anyone goes on a sixteen person killing spree it's a bit of a mental health issue.  It certainly isn't something right-thinking people do.  Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...


Well said.
 
2013-07-14 01:03:44 PM

Popcorn Johnny: I knew the minute I heard about this guy that it was a mental health issue and not just some soldier looking for a little payback.


Maybe a guy with a mental health issue looking for a little payback?  I dont claim to understand the trauma the mind goes through in war on top of having traumatic brain injury but I just dont see doing that and not having some underlying urge that pushed him to that point that what ever his mental state that would normally form a barrier allowed him to slip past
 
2013-07-14 01:04:39 PM
If he had a traumatic brain injury, why was he issued a weapon?
 
2013-07-14 01:06:27 PM
You know who can help this guy? Zimmerman
 
2013-07-14 01:09:17 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: If he had a traumatic brain injury, why was he issued a weapon?


THIS. Seems he should have rotated out....
 
2013-07-14 01:09:27 PM

elffster: You know who can help this guy? Zimmerman


Doe he need to gain weight?
 
2013-07-14 01:09:31 PM
Wasn't that drug side effect covered in a cracked article some time ago?
 
2013-07-14 01:11:01 PM

PhiloeBedoe: Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...


If it turns out he was indeed mentally ill, you're goddamn right I'm taking his side.
 
2013-07-14 01:12:11 PM
I doubt the Afghans upset at American troops for murdering their families are going to buy this story...
 
2013-07-14 01:12:45 PM
I travel to malaria endemic areas fairly frequently.  I have basically two choices for malaria prophylactics -- malarone and mefloquine.  Or, as a fellow traveler once put it, the one that kills your stomach or the one that makes you hallucinate.  She was taking mefloquine and regularly hallucinated rats.  I tried it and had some seriously vivid and freaky dreams.  Luckily, malarone doesn't bother my stomach all that much and that has been my drug of choice since.  The problem is that it is a daily tablet vs mefloquine, which is weekly.  I find that a daily schedule actually helps me to take it regularly, though I can see in a combat area that a weekly dose would be more convenient.

It would never occur to me to give mefloquine to someone who is already one beer short of a sixpack.
 
2013-07-14 01:13:37 PM

PhiloeBedoe: Popcorn Johnny: I knew the minute I heard about this guy that it was a mental health issue and not just some soldier looking for a little payback.

I think it's safe to say when anyone goes on a sixteen person killing spree it's a bit of a mental health issue.  It certainly isn't something right-thinking people do.  Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...


Before he enlisted in the Army, he was an investment broker who was accused of looting the accounts of his clients, mostly elderly retirees.

His moral compass was farked long before the Army got its hands on him.
 
2013-07-14 01:13:49 PM

PhiloeBedoe: Popcorn Johnny: I knew the minute I heard about this guy that it was a mental health issue and not just some soldier looking for a little payback.

I think it's safe to say when anyone goes on a sixteen person killing spree it's a bit of a mental health issue.  It certainly isn't something right-thinking people do.  Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...


Well, when the US federal government creates such a murderous piece of sh*the, hands him a gun, and returns him to combat... You can't ignore the role played by the US government.

Is this man guilty of a killing spree? Yeah but he certainly had help.
 
2013-07-14 01:15:49 PM

Popcorn Johnny: PhiloeBedoe: Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...
If it turns out he was indeed mentally ill, you're goddamn right I'm taking his side.


Ditto. It's Trauma, a disorder, a mental health issue, and a known psychoactive effect of a medication.  I can't lay blame on the soldier here.  The blame lies in the military institution that ignored the dangers and welfare of it's members and let the situation progress to this point.
 
2013-07-14 01:16:03 PM
Jesus, if that's true, that's seriously farked up.

Should have just given him some gin and tonics....
 
2013-07-14 01:16:09 PM

Popcorn Johnny: PhiloeBedoe: Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...

If it turns out he was indeed mentally ill, you're goddamn right I'm taking his side.


Now now, it's not like you wouldn't take his side regardless.
 
2013-07-14 01:21:28 PM
I had a bad PTSD day yesterday. First time I've encountered the "why should I subject my loved ones to behaviour I can't control" line of thinking.

Anyone who doesn't have compassion for everyone involved is ignorant, not malicious.
 
2013-07-14 01:22:46 PM
"Bales told the judge in his case, Col. Jeffery Nance, that he does not remember setting fire to several bodies during his rampage. "

Uh huh, the Lunesta defense I see.
 
2013-07-14 01:23:10 PM

Sgt Otter: PhiloeBedoe: Popcorn Johnny: I knew the minute I heard about this guy that it was a mental health issue and not just some soldier looking for a little payback.

I think it's safe to say when anyone goes on a sixteen person killing spree it's a bit of a mental health issue.  It certainly isn't something right-thinking people do.  Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...

Before he enlisted in the Army, he was an investment broker who was accused of looting the accounts of his clients, mostly elderly retirees.

His moral compass was farked long before the Army got its hands on him.


Yeah, straw that broke the camel's back. Camel had a bad back to begin with.

So end result, ya got a broken camel. Deal with broken camel as you would deal with any other broken camel.
 
2013-07-14 01:24:36 PM
Wasn't this an episode on Law & Order?
 
2013-07-14 01:27:29 PM

Satanic_Hamster: Popcorn Johnny: PhiloeBedoe: Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...

If it turns out he was indeed mentally ill, you're goddamn right I'm taking his side.

Now now, it's not like you wouldn't take his side regardless


please, if it was some kid who grew up in some inner city war zone here in the u.s. would you be so willing to give him a pass? no? because we have to honor the troops no matter what war crimes they commit.
 
2013-07-14 01:27:38 PM

Peki: I had a bad PTSD day yesterday. First time I've encountered the "why should I subject my loved ones to behaviour I can't control" line of thinking.

Anyone who doesn't have compassion for everyone involved is ignorant, not malicious.


Kitten hugs?

/That sucks, hope you feel better today.
 
2013-07-14 01:28:16 PM
Hold on a minute.  He joined the military (as so many do) to go to foreign lands and kill people.  The US military trained him to do so.  The US government paid him to do so.

And now that he's lived up to expectations, people are pissed?
 
2013-07-14 01:29:45 PM
There must be a way to pin this on medical marijuana.
 
2013-07-14 01:30:18 PM

juddcc: PhiloeBedoe: Popcorn Johnny: I knew the minute I heard about this guy that it was a mental health issue and not just some soldier looking for a little payback.

I think it's safe to say when anyone goes on a sixteen person killing spree it's a bit of a mental health issue.  It certainly isn't something right-thinking people do.  Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...

Well said.


No, it's not well said at all.  It's incredibly badly said.

Someone who is mentally ill is not criminally responsible.  That's not to say that someone who is a danger to others shouldn't be held in a secure mental health facility, but to hold someone criminally responsible for mental illness would be like outlawing baldness and jailing cancer patients.
 
2013-07-14 01:31:01 PM

PsiChick: Peki: I had a bad PTSD day yesterday. First time I've encountered the "why should I subject my loved ones to behaviour I can't control" line of thinking.

Anyone who doesn't have compassion for everyone involved is ignorant, not malicious.

Kitten hugs?

/That sucks, hope you feel better today.


That was awesome.  I also find kitten cams quite relaxing, although on my favorites the kittens are older and often not in view of the camera.
 
2013-07-14 01:32:17 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: If he had a traumatic brain injury, why was he issued a weapon?


Well, duh!

www.michaeltotten.com

Hint...it was real. Not a 'shop. Not fake. Real.
 
2013-07-14 01:33:04 PM

George_Spelvin: Hold on a minute.  He joined the military (as so many do) to go to foreign lands and kill people.  The US military trained him to do so.  The US government paid him to do so.

And now that he's lived up to expectations, people are pissed?


See he's supposed to do it under orders.

Love the double standard everyone seems  to have in North America. I see it in Canada too.

So-and-so committed a crime because he was mentally ill: they were faking it/should have taken their meds/still understood right from wrong
They were a soldier: we need to have more compassion/they didn't understand what they were doing
 
2013-07-14 01:35:04 PM

PsiChick: Peki: I had a bad PTSD day yesterday. First time I've encountered the "why should I subject my loved ones to behaviour I can't control" line of thinking.

Anyone who doesn't have compassion for everyone involved is ignorant, not malicious.

Kitten hugs?

/That sucks, hope you feel better today.


Oh damn. There are some really cute pics in that link.

/don't tell anyone I said something was cute. i'll deny it ;)
 
2013-07-14 01:36:47 PM
They should of prescribed one joint taken 2 times daily.
 
2013-07-14 01:37:31 PM

macadamnut: There must be a way to pin this on medical marijuana.


You'd need some rape and white wimmen for that.
 
2013-07-14 01:37:32 PM

tiiger: Popcorn Johnny: PhiloeBedoe: Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...
If it turns out he was indeed mentally ill, you're goddamn right I'm taking his side.

Ditto. It's Trauma, a disorder, a mental health issue, and a known psychoactive effect of a medication.  I can't lay blame on the soldier here.  The blame lies in the military institution that ignored the dangers and welfare of it's members and let the situation progress to this point.


Unfortunately there a lot of people who do not take mental illness seriously. They don't understand that a mental illness is like any other illness. The difference is that usual illness stops people from performing act while mental illness might cause people to perform acts, that's why mentally ill people were often thought to be possessed by demons.

It is somehow not self evident for everyone that problems with the brain, the organ that define who we are and what we do, govern people's action. Some people are more comfortable believing that their self is something abstract, what some religions call the soul, instead of something physical that can malfunction.
 
2013-07-14 01:37:58 PM
Why can't we all just get along and have a nice clean war where nobody gets hurt and pretty ancient architecture doesn't get damaged, but which allows the 1% to get their paws on another economic boon that they so richly deserve...cuz they said please to the right politicians?
 
2013-07-14 01:40:05 PM
We should be focused on more important things like finding the traitor who leaked this story.
 
2013-07-14 01:40:30 PM

PsiChick: Peki: I had a bad PTSD day yesterday. First time I've encountered the "why should I subject my loved ones to behaviour I can't control" line of thinking.

Anyone who doesn't have compassion for everyone involved is ignorant, not malicious.

Kitten hugs?

/That sucks, hope you feel better today.


That was awesome, except I have no tissues, so I had to grab a roll of toilet paper.

/wishes the hormones were such that she got angry instead of weepy, but it is what it is

And yes, today is better. Thank you. :)
 
2013-07-14 01:42:52 PM

Deep Contact: They should of prescribed one joint taken 2 times daily.


Just make sure it's the right stuff. The wrong strain makes it worse (part of why yesterday was bad).
 
2013-07-14 01:44:30 PM

Popcorn Johnny: PhiloeBedoe: Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...

If it turns out he was indeed mentally ill, you're goddamn right I'm taking his side.


Defending him is the right thing to do if the army prescribed medication is responsible for the actions.
 
2013-07-14 01:45:32 PM

KimNorth: Wasn't this an episode on Law & Order?


SVU, yeah, but damned if I can't remember it well enough to tell you which one.
 
2013-07-14 01:45:32 PM

George_Spelvin: Hold on a minute.  He joined the military (as so many do) to go to foreign lands and kill people.  The US military trained him to do so.  The US government paid him to do so.

And now that he's lived up to expectations, people are pissed?


Actually, he joined the army to get away from a mob of cane shaking retirees, who he had stolen money from.
 
2013-07-14 01:45:44 PM

Popcorn Johnny: I knew the minute I heard about this guy that it was a mental health issue and not just some soldier looking for a little payback.


Well you do seem really smart, so I'm not surprised.
 
2013-07-14 01:45:58 PM

Peki: Deep Contact: They should of prescribed one joint taken 2 times daily.

Just make sure it's the right stuff. The wrong strain makes it worse (part of why yesterday was bad).


Yeah, I was thinking back in the 70's again.
 
2013-07-14 01:47:11 PM

rumpelstiltskin: George_Spelvin: Hold on a minute.  He joined the military (as so many do) to go to foreign lands and kill people.  The US military trained him to do so.  The US government paid him to do so.

And now that he's lived up to expectations, people are pissed?

Actually, he joined the army to get away from a mob of cane shaking retirees, who he had stolen money from.


Yep. This guy was damaged way before this event occurred.
 
2013-07-14 01:47:30 PM
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-07-14 01:47:50 PM

knight_on_the_rail: Well you do seem really smart, so I'm not surprised.


You seem upset.
 
2013-07-14 01:48:21 PM

ginandbacon: "He admitted to using steroids, which can cause aggression and violence."

This soldier was a walking time bomb. We punish service people for asking for help if they have PTSD and ignore all of the danger they and those around them experience directly from that condition instead of treating it like a health crisis. Add on top traumatic brain injuries and the drugs (prescribed and not) that are all too common, and frankly it's surprising we don't have more incidents like this.

It's insanely depressing.


Here's how it works in the military (and sadly, a lot of American's, as well):

Have a physical injury that we can see? Don't you worry none. We'll do what we can to help you recover.  Here's some medical, some physical training to help in recovery.  We'll get you back right so you can keep on working.

Have a mental injury/issue or a physical injury that we can't see? What the fark is wrong with you? Stop complaining, you piece of shiat dirtbag, and get back to work.  Buck up like the man you are and stop being such a lazy do-nothing shiatbag.

I was in the army, and I've seen it time and time again.  One of my friends got shocked from electricity; in one hand and out the other.  He had serious back problems after that.  But because no one could physically see the back problems, and because the burn marks on his hands had healed, the army treated him like a lazy piece of shiat dirtbag. They believed he faked the injury to get out of work, and our leadership wouldn't allow him to get medical help for his back.

Another friend of mine killed a guy in Afghanistan at close range with a 50 cal.  You ever see what a 50 cal does to a person? It ain't pretty.  Those guns are designed to take out vehicles and buildings, not individuals.  The guy he killed was being taken prisoner, and my friend saw the guy move/twitch his hand in such a way that my friend thought he was signaling others to attack.  He instantly pulled the trigger of his gun, because he thought he was saving the lives of the men in his unit.  Turns out it was nothing. My friend has been torn over this for years (this happened back in 05 or 06).  He thinks himself a murderer, and it tears him apart.  He has serious PTSD, self confidence issues (how can he call himself a good man when he murdered this guy), and multiple other mental issues from this incident (including thoughts of suicide). The army doesn't care.  He received no mental health for the remainder of his year long tour in Afghanistan.  When he got back to the states, he friends and family (myself included) convinced him to get medical help. He did.  Once he started getting mental health, his unit started giving him all the shiat jobs.  They sent him to Iraq three months later, and refused to give him his medication for depression. After another year in Iraq, we managed to convince him to pick up his mental health care again.  His sergeant did whatever he could to make sure he didn't get mental health, from denying him a vehicle to get to his doctor, not allowing him to leave formation or work, giving him work after hours, and punishing him for daring to need any sort of medication.  Meanwhile, all this was wrecking havoc on his physical health and his diet, and he started going over weight (this guy is 6'4", full of muscle, with a nice layer of fat around it). Despite the fact that he could outperform most of the other guys in his unit on the PT test, he failed his weight test. His sergeant, lieutenant, and captain were all trying to find a way to dishonorably discharge him, and they were using his weight to try to do it.  I have no idea what happened after that, because I haven't spoken to him in years.  That was where he was at the last time I talked to him, about 4 years ago.

I have tons of these stories from guys I knew while I was in the military, and from meeting other veterans after the military.

The military hates mental health issues.  You are weak, pathetic, and don't deserve to be in the military if you dare to have a health problem that we can't physically see.

And it doesn't surprise me in the least that his Sgt. Bales is being treated the same way, both in the military and by people outside of the military.
 
2013-07-14 01:51:33 PM

Peki: PsiChick: Peki: I had a bad PTSD day yesterday. First time I've encountered the "why should I subject my loved ones to behaviour I can't control" line of thinking.

Anyone who doesn't have compassion for everyone involved is ignorant, not malicious.

Kitten hugs?

/That sucks, hope you feel better today.

That was awesome, except I have no tissues, so I had to grab a roll of toilet paper.

/wishes the hormones were such that she got angry instead of weepy, but it is what it is

And yes, today is better. Thank you. :)


Yay! :) And yeah, hormones suck ass.

talkertopc: tiiger: Popcorn Johnny: PhiloeBedoe: Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...
If it turns out he was indeed mentally ill, you're goddamn right I'm taking his side.

Ditto. It's Trauma, a disorder, a mental health issue, and a known psychoactive effect of a medication.  I can't lay blame on the soldier here.  The blame lies in the military institution that ignored the dangers and welfare of it's members and let the situation progress to this point.

Unfortunately there a lot of people who do not take mental illness seriously. They don't understand that a mental illness is like any other illness. The difference is that usual illness stops people from performing act while mental illness might cause people to perform acts, that's why mentally ill people were often thought to be possessed by demons.

It is somehow not self evident for everyone that problems with the brain, the organ that define who we are and what we do, govern people's action. Some people are more comfortable believing that their self is something abstract, what some religions call the soul, instead of something physical that can malfunction.


To be fair, I believe I have a soul  and I'm mentally ill (bipolar); in most theologies the soul is not what creates our Earthly thoughts, it's more like our essence of being. The soul doesn't create thoughts like 'I want chicken wings'. That's our brains. So our brains farking up really isn't a soul farking up, it's just that your soul got put in a slightly-dented container.

/Which can be fun when your brain makes you high off your ass for no reason
//And is far less fun other times
 
2013-07-14 01:53:06 PM
After all the Gulf War Sickness from the 1st invasion, it's almost surprising folks still sign up to be military guinne pigs. There's a congressional report out there somewhere.

Ah, here it is:

http://www.gulfwarvets.com/arison/banking.htm

Also interesting is the "dual use" materials we were shipping to Iraq.

Anyway, soldiers greeting used up like this by daddy war bucks is Just business as usual.
 
2013-07-14 01:53:16 PM
Bales is accused of leaving his remote base in southern Afghanistan twice in one night to go on killing sprees in two nearby villages. Most of the victims were women and children, and some of the bodies were burned after the massacre.

Read more:  http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/army-staff-sgt-robert-bales-ple a ds-guilty-murder-article-1.1363936#ixzz2Z2kVEMaq
 
2013-07-14 01:54:06 PM

ginandbacon: "He admitted to using steroids, which can cause aggression and violence."

This soldier was a walking time bomb. We punish service people for asking for help if they have PTSD and ignore all of the danger they and those around them experience directly from that condition instead of treating it like a health crisis. Add on top traumatic brain injuries and the drugs (prescribed and not) that are all too common, and frankly it's surprising we don't have more incidents like this.

It's insanely depressing.


We've gone from "several soldiers walked through a town and killed men, women, and children" to "one soldier walked through a town and killed men, women, and children" to "one soldier may have had a drug-triggered homicidal episode, walked through a town and killed men, women, and children." The key issue hasn't changed, just what may have influenced the outcome.

The only thing this "revelation" should influence is whether others should be included for punishment - despite being given the drug, despite his existing steroid use, despite his traumatic brain injury, he was still on active duty. It should not significantly influence whether his punishment should be less severe. At the end of the day, he pulled the trigger on at least 16 murders. It wasn't a crime of passion - he admitted to being lucid and deliberate, and his actions both leaving from and returning to base back that up.

He left the base, walked half a mile to one village, to kill four and injure six. The four were part of the same family - he went to a house, beat and shot everyone he could find, and went back to his base.
He left again, walked one and a half miles to the second village, killing 12.He killed 11 people from the same family in that village - everyone he could find.  He didn't just shoot them, either. He stabbed them, shot them, and then he set them on fire afterwards, to desecrate the corpses. He shot toddlers in the head, and then set them on fire.He then came back to base, even while search parties were looking for him, laid his weapons on the ground, and surrendered.
I don't care how insane you are, you don't get a mulligan on mass murder. This soldier committed war crimes. His defense has spun everything from "you can't prove anything", to "he was upset because his friend's leg was blown off yesterday", to "he was upset due to marital problems",to "he was drunk/high/roid raged/drug addled", but the fact of the matter is that despite his motivation, he pulled the trigger for hours, walking from house to house, killing not just men and women, but 2-year-old children, in two separate episodes.The whole point of this defense is so that he can avoid the death penalty. That's fine by me - I'm not keen on the death penalty, especially in cases where there could've been undue mental influence or illness. But, what he did was not trivial, nor passionate, nor was it spurious. It took hours to do, and he took deliberate actions to make it happen.

What should anger folks is that this was preventable. His superiors are the ones that should be standing next to him in court, answering some hard questions as to why this guy was on active duty, why he was allowed to leave a heavily fortified base in a war zone, dressed as a local and armed to the gills, alone, and why he was able to do so twice.
 
2013-07-14 01:55:31 PM
I prefer my malaria tonics with lime.

upload.wikimedia.org

Although some people are prone to violent tendencies, and if you over do it you may hallucinate on your way down.
 
2013-07-14 01:56:24 PM

PhiloeBedoe: Popcorn Johnny: I knew the minute I heard about this guy that it was a mental health issue and not just some soldier looking for a little payback.

I think it's safe to say when anyone goes on a sixteen person killing spree it's a bit of a mental health issue.  It certainly isn't something right-thinking people do.  Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...


I'll remember this the next time the killer is brown, Arab, or Muslim.
 
2013-07-14 01:57:05 PM
I don't care.
 
2013-07-14 02:01:02 PM

lumiere: PhiloeBedoe: Popcorn Johnny: I knew the minute I heard about this guy that it was a mental health issue and not just some soldier looking for a little payback.

I think it's safe to say when anyone goes on a sixteen person killing spree it's a bit of a mental health issue.  It certainly isn't something right-thinking people do.  Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...

I'll remember this the next time the killer is brown, Arab, or Muslim.


Somehow I doubt that, you don't strike me as a long-term thinker...
 
2013-07-14 02:03:47 PM
And besides, they stopped being civilians as soon as they died.
 
2013-07-14 02:09:35 PM

PhiloeBedoe: lumiere: PhiloeBedoe: Popcorn Johnny: I knew the minute I heard about this guy that it was a mental health issue and not just some soldier looking for a little payback.

I think it's safe to say when anyone goes on a sixteen person killing spree it's a bit of a mental health issue.  It certainly isn't something right-thinking people do.  Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...

I'll remember this the next time the killer is brown, Arab, or Muslim.

Somehow I doubt that, you don't strike me as a long-term thinker...


nyrb.typepad.com
 
2013-07-14 02:09:57 PM

mgshamster: Have a mental injury/issue or a physical injury that we can't see? What the fark is wrong with you? Stop complaining, you piece of shiat dirtbag, and get back to work. Buck up like the man you are and stop being such a lazy do-nothing shiatbag.


If you have a security clearance they'll strip it from you instantly. Always seemed better to suffer with your problems rather than risk losing your career.
 
2013-07-14 02:11:03 PM
Yeah, but were the 16 afghans wearing hoodies?
 
2013-07-14 02:14:10 PM

talkertopc: tiiger: Popcorn Johnny: PhiloeBedoe: Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...
If it turns out he was indeed mentally ill, you're goddamn right I'm taking his side.

Ditto. It's Trauma, a disorder, a mental health issue, and a known psychoactive effect of a medication.  I can't lay blame on the soldier here.  The blame lies in the military institution that ignored the dangers and welfare of it's members and let the situation progress to this point.

Unfortunately there a lot of people who do not take mental illness seriously. They don't understand that a mental illness is like any other illness. The difference is that usual illness stops people from performing act while mental illness might cause people to perform acts, that's why mentally ill people were often thought to be possessed by demons.

It is somehow not self evident for everyone that problems with the brain, the organ that define who we are and what we do, govern people's action. Some people are more comfortable believing that their self is something abstract, what some religions call the soul, instead of something physical that can malfunction.


Without giving out too much info, I can tell you that Philoe is better placed than most to understand mental health issues.
 
2013-07-14 02:19:07 PM

K3rmy: Yeah, but were the 16 afghans wearing hoodies?


Probably something similar,
 
2013-07-14 02:22:00 PM
Conspiracy theory:

The Army medics didn't accidentally give him the malaria drug that gave him homicidal urges.  The Army brass ordered him, and others like him, given the drug to see what would happen.

Now that would make a good movie, no?
 
2013-07-14 02:24:23 PM
Thats Ssg, subby. Drop and give me 50, also that is disrespect to a non commissioned officer here's your ucmj, 15 days extra duty, two weeks no pay. Confined to post, not allowed to wear civvies. Hooah.
 
2013-07-14 02:28:24 PM
I know next to nothing about this case but as someone who took Lariam for an extended period of time as a malaria prophylactic I can testify that it farks with your head. In my case I had the most crazy and erotic dreams I have ever had in my life, and this is from someone who never dreams. (It didn't seem to affect me while waking.) It doesn't surprise me at all that if someone had a TBI that this drug could make them go wacko. It would be negligent for him to be on this drug under those conditions without any type of regular medical monitoring.
 
2013-07-14 02:28:42 PM

andyofne: mgshamster: Have a mental injury/issue or a physical injury that we can't see? What the fark is wrong with you? Stop complaining, you piece of shiat dirtbag, and get back to work. Buck up like the man you are and stop being such a lazy do-nothing shiatbag.

If you have a security clearance they'll strip it from you instantly. Always seemed better to suffer with your problems rather than risk losing your career.


Of the several individuals who had mental health problems in my unit and actively sought mental health treatment, not a single one of them lost their security clearance.  Same with the several individuals who had drug problems (just about half the guys in my barracks used drugs of some sort; shrooms, coke, x, and acid were the most popular; pot the least popular because it stayed in your system for such a long time).

Hell, I didn't receive my security clearance (which was mandated to be able to work in my unit) until nearly a year and a half after I was in, and several months after my first deployment.

It really depends on the unit and the job for how strict they are with obtaining and keeping security clearances.
 
2013-07-14 02:31:54 PM

Peki: I had a bad PTSD day yesterday. First time I've encountered the "why should I subject my loved ones to behaviour I can't control" line of thinking.

Anyone who doesn't have compassion for everyone involved is ignorant, not malicious.


Way back in I believe 2004, my Reserves unit did a little FTX and a friend of my NCOIC dropped by to give us a realistic talk about deploying to Iraq, as we were on alert at the time. The thing he said that still sticks with me was 'don't take the malaria drugs'. This guy was even a combat medic and he considered getting malaria better than the side effects of the drugs. I can't even fully comprehend adding that to traumatic brain injury or PTSD.
 
2013-07-14 02:33:22 PM

Ronin_S: So-and-so committed a crime because he was mentally ill: they were faking it/should have taken their meds/still understood right from wrong
They were a soldier: we need to have more compassion/they didn't understand what they were doing


Example A of someone who does not understand the difference between mental illness, and the Legal Definition of Insanity/Reduced Culpability.
 
2013-07-14 02:36:03 PM

sinanju: I have basically two choices for malaria prophylactics -- malarone and mefloquine.


DoD has been switching over to issuing Doxycycline - at least for DoD civvies.  Some stomach issues, but not as bad as the alternative, in my experience.
 
2013-07-14 02:38:36 PM

Brokenseas: Conspiracy theory:

The Army medics didn't accidentally give him the malaria drug that gave him homicidal urges.  The Army brass ordered him, and others like him, given the drug to see what would happen.

Now that would make a good movie, no?


It did. They called it Jacob's Ladder.
 
2013-07-14 02:40:39 PM

Uisce Beatha: sinanju: I have basically two choices for malaria prophylactics -- malarone and mefloquine.

DoD has been switching over to issuing Doxycycline - at least for DoD civvies.  Some stomach issues, but not as bad as the alternative, in my experience.


There's sun sensitivity with that. Since endemic areas also tend to be hot, sunny ones, I'm not sure why you'd give that to someone who's going to spend most of their time outside.
 
2013-07-14 02:43:22 PM

sinanju: There's sun sensitivity with that. Since endemic areas also tend to be hot, sunny ones, I'm not sure why you'd give that to someone who's going to spend most of their time outside.


Our uniforms or work clothes (what you wear depends on which unit you are embedded with) tend to be long sleeved, and we are usually wearing something on our heads, so it can be mitigated.
 
2013-07-14 02:47:34 PM

ladyfortuna: This guy was even a combat medic and he considered getting malaria better than the side effects of the drugs


This is an enduring debate as to whether it is better to get the disease and treat it or use a prophylactic. In my case I was temporarily living in a place (rural India) where there was only rudimentary medical care and I didn't trust getting a correct diagnosis should I contract the disease. But in the military where medical care would at least presumably be adequate the medic's advice is quite rational.

Uisce eatha: sinanju: I have basically two choices for malaria prophylactics -- malarone and mefloquine.

DoD has been switching over to issuing Doxycycline - at least for DoD civvies.  Some stomach issues, but not as bad as the alternative, in my experience.


The problem here is resistance. I personally would rather take nothing than Doxy because Doxy is really the worst of both worlds. There is the hassle of taking the drug along with side effects and then it likely won't prevent one from getting malaria anyway, in many places.
 
2013-07-14 02:50:37 PM
Why is anyone given mefloquine, when there are non-psychotic alternatives?  I got something different when I went to India in 2006, for that very reason.  This isn't cutting-edge stuff.
 
2013-07-14 02:51:21 PM
Hey now, don't go giving Zimmerman any new ideas.
 
2013-07-14 02:53:45 PM
Wall_of_Doodoo: Yeah, straw that broke the camel's back. Camel had a bad back to begin with.

So end result, ya got a broken camel. Deal with broken camel as you would deal with any other broken camel.


Well said.

I have PTSD myself, so I'm pretty understanding when it comes to mental illness. I'd even go so far as to say this wasn't really "his fault." Regardless of what kind of person he was to start with, he was pushed to the point that he couldn't be expected not to do something crazy. His mind had no option but to act out against what he perceived as the source of his troubles - it's just that instead of blaming himself or his chain of command, he blamed the locals. It was an extroverted form of suicide.

But now? He's beyond help. Before he killed those people, he could have been treated, maybe even healed. Now, he's a murderous psychopath, and even if we could change that it wouldn't undo what he's done. Imagine if we somehow managed to therapy him into a decent human being - now we've just condemned someone to spend the rest of their life overwhelmed with guilt because of that time they brutally murdered 16 people.

The guy's got to be put down, but that's animal control, not justice. Justice can only be served by punishing those who pushed him to the point of no return and allowed this to happen.
 
2013-07-14 02:58:32 PM

macadamnut: There must be a way to pin this on medical marijuana.



Oh great, now you Fundies wanna stone him.
 
2013-07-14 02:58:46 PM

mgshamster: Here's how it works in the military (and sadly, a lot of American's, as well):

Have a physical injury that we can see? Don't you worry none. We'll do what we can to help you recover.  Here's some medical, some physical training to help in recovery.  We'll get you back right so you can keep on working.

Have a mental injury/issue or a physical injury that we can't see? What the fark is wrong with you? Stop complaining, you piece of shiat dirtbag, and get back to work.  Buck up like the man you are and stop being such a lazy do-nothing shiatbag.


Based on that attitude, I'm guessing the US Military has a higher percentage of GOP'ers  & Fundamentalist Christians than the general public has...
 
2013-07-14 03:02:50 PM

Pharmdawg: Why can't we all just get along and have a nice clean war where nobody gets hurt and pretty ancient architecture doesn't get damaged, but which allows the 1% to get their paws on another economic boon that they so richly deserve...cuz they said please to the right politicians?



Hey, isn't that your phone ringing? It's probably Hollywood, looking for some ideas.
 
2013-07-14 03:07:08 PM

ladyfortuna: Peki: I had a bad PTSD day yesterday. First time I've encountered the "why should I subject my loved ones to behaviour I can't control" line of thinking.

Anyone who doesn't have compassion for everyone involved is ignorant, not malicious.

Way back in I believe 2004, my Reserves unit did a little FTX and a friend of my NCOIC dropped by to give us a realistic talk about deploying to Iraq, as we were on alert at the time. The thing he said that still sticks with me was 'don't take the malaria drugs'. This guy was even a combat medic and he considered getting malaria better than the side effects of the drugs. I can't even fully comprehend adding that to traumatic brain injury or PTSD.


They told us that if we didn't take them and got malaria, we'd be subjected to UCMJ action for disobeying orders and destruction of government property. This was in 2008-09.
 
ows
2013-07-14 03:17:15 PM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: If he had a traumatic brain injury, why was he issued a weapon?


FRONT LINE INFANRTY!!!
FRONT LINE INFANTRY!!!!
 
2013-07-14 03:41:21 PM
So, a drug that isn't for people with PTSD. They hand it out like candy in a hot war zone. Why not just throw in a tactical nuclear device as a door prize for coming in?
 
2013-07-14 03:43:17 PM
www.orangedonkey.net
dogsbreed.netclubs.akc.org


RIP 17 AFGHANS
 
2013-07-14 03:59:38 PM
Sure, sure, sure.  Does any soldier ever pay for criminal acts against foreigners?
 
2013-07-14 04:01:56 PM

Pichu0102: KimNorth: Wasn't this an episode on Law & Order?

SVU, yeah, but damned if I can't remember it well enough to tell you which one.


The Innertubes are your friend:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0629659/
 
2013-07-14 04:11:33 PM

Bontesla: PhiloeBedoe: Popcorn Johnny: I knew the minute I heard about this guy that it was a mental health issue and not just some soldier looking for a little payback.

I think it's safe to say when anyone goes on a sixteen person killing spree it's a bit of a mental health issue.  It certainly isn't something right-thinking people do.  Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...

Well, when the US federal government creates such a murderous piece of sh*the, hands him a gun, and returns him to combat... You can't ignore the role played by the US government.

Is this man guilty of a killing spree? Yeah but he certainly had help.


And then they take an already broken killing machine and give it a drug KNOWN to cause homicidal ideation?

This guy was certainly a runaway truck, but it sounds to me like the Army released the brake.
 
2013-07-14 06:11:12 PM
I wonder if Adam Lanza was on antimalarials? If you want to slaughter a bunch of women and children just take your anti-malarials and blame it on them.  Thank you US Army for the valuable info.
 
2013-07-14 06:13:50 PM

Nasty Celt: I wonder if Adam Lanza was on antimalarials? If you want to slaughter a bunch of women and children just take your anti-malarials and blame it on them.  Thank you US Army for the valuable info.


Yes. That's EXACTLY what's being said here. Put your bib back on, don't want any drool to get on your clothing.
 
2013-07-14 06:53:04 PM

George_Spelvin: Hold on a minute.  He joined the military (as so many do) to go to foreign lands and kill people.  The US military trained him to do so.  The US government paid him to do so.

And now that he's lived up to expectations, people are pissed?


Last I checked you're only supposed to kill the kids after the enemy government has conscripted them.
 
2013-07-14 07:43:25 PM

hardinparamedic: Nasty Celt: I wonder if Adam Lanza was on antimalarials? If you want to slaughter a bunch of women and children just take your anti-malarials and blame it on them.  Thank you US Army for the valuable info.

Yes. That's EXACTLY what's being said here. Put your bib back on, don't want any drool to get on your clothing.


Wash your hands.  That ain't spit his bib is encrusted with.
 
2013-07-14 09:26:14 PM
 hardinparamedic: Nasty Celt:  I wonder if Adam Lanza was on antimalarials? If you want to slaughter a bunch of women and children just take your anti-malarials and blame it on them.  Thank you US Army for the valuable info.

Yes. That's EXACTLY what's being said here. Put your bib back on, don't want any drool to get on your clothing.

Typical American. You'll swallow any excuse when it suits your purposes but call the very same excuse absurd when it doesn't. That's why one Floridian got 20 years for firing in the air to scare her abusive husband while another was set free for stalking and killing a teenager. Your justice system, much like the bible, can easily be twisted any way you like to suit your purpose. It's a system where money and the colour of your skin often defines the justice you receive.
 
2013-07-14 09:28:33 PM

Nasty Celt: hardinparamedic: Nasty Celt:  I wonder if Adam Lanza was on antimalarials? If you want to slaughter a bunch of women and children just take your anti-malarials and blame it on them.  Thank you US Army for the valuable info.

Yes. That's EXACTLY what's being said here. Put your bib back on, don't want any drool to get on your clothing.

Typical American. You'll swallow any excuse when it suits your purposes but call the very same excuse absurd when it doesn't. That's why one Floridian got 20 years for firing in the air to scare her abusive husband while another was set free for stalking and killing a teenager. Your justice system, much like the bible, can easily be twisted any way you like to suit your purpose. It's a system where money and the colour of your skin often defines the justice you receive.


Wow. I said almost the same thing to my mother a half hour ago.

/we're American, but definitely not the normal sort. Even French people like us.
 
2013-07-14 11:17:28 PM

Nasty Celt: You'll swallow any excuse when it suits your purposes but call the very same excuse absurd when it doesn't. That's why one Floridian got 20 years for firing in the air to scare her abusive husband while another was set free for stalking and killing a teenager.


You mean the woman that left the place where she was threatened, went and retrieved a gun, and then went back in and shot at a person, barely missing his head after he was no longer a threat to her?

That woman? The one that everyone likes to post the Alternet OpEd blog piece about which ignores the actual facts of that case?

Something tells me you need to give your GED in law back.

Nasty Celt: Your justice system, much like the bible, can easily be twisted any way you like to suit your purpose.


Please don't talk "the bible" to me there, Jerry Falwell. You're talking to an unabashed atheist. I really don't care what you think it says.

Nasty Celt: It's a system where money and the colour of your skin often defines the justice you receive.


Yes. It's just the United States where this happens. Nowhere else in the world do prejudices and finances influence the outcomes. Just the United States.

Dear god. Why am I even arguing with you. If you honestly think that traumatic injury to the brain and mental illness combined with drugs which alter mentation that he was not taking by choice does not factor in under reduced culpability, and you live in a Western Country, or any country based on Western Law - for that matter - you're either a troll or an idiot.
 
2013-07-15 07:22:45 AM

RugNug: ladyfortuna: Peki: I had a bad PTSD day yesterday. First time I've encountered the "why should I subject my loved ones to behaviour I can't control" line of thinking.

Anyone who doesn't have compassion for everyone involved is ignorant, not malicious.

Way back in I believe 2004, my Reserves unit did a little FTX and a friend of my NCOIC dropped by to give us a realistic talk about deploying to Iraq, as we were on alert at the time. The thing he said that still sticks with me was 'don't take the malaria drugs'. This guy was even a combat medic and he considered getting malaria better than the side effects of the drugs. I can't even fully comprehend adding that to traumatic brain injury or PTSD.

They told us that if we didn't take them and got malaria, we'd be subjected to UCMJ action for disobeying orders and destruction of government property. This was in 2008-09.


I would take that risk over the side effects I was told about. At least at that point it's 'three hots and a cot', as my NCOIC would say. A notebook and a pen, and I could occupy myself for probably the entire time in the brig if it came to that.
 
2013-07-15 08:06:22 AM

OgreMagi: Popcorn Johnny: PhiloeBedoe: Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...

If it turns out he was indeed mentally ill, you're goddamn right I'm taking his side.

Defending him is the right thing to do if the army prescribed medication is responsible for the actions.


Prescribed is not the right word. I never took this drug but I took doxycycline for malaria prevention. I didn't want to take the pills after reading the side effects. They told us that we could be charged criminally for not taking them. Every single day we got into a formation and our superiors watched us put the pill in our mouth and then made us open our mouths to show that we had swallowed it.
 
2013-07-15 09:34:23 AM
Who created this maleria drug, Vyvyan from The Young Ones??

"It's a potion I've invented that, when a person drinks it, he turns into an axe-wielding homicidal maniac! It's basically a cure, for not being an axe-wielding homicidal maniac! The potential market's enormous!"
 
2013-07-15 09:58:54 AM

PhiloeBedoe: Popcorn Johnny: I knew the minute I heard about this guy that it was a mental health issue and not just some soldier looking for a little payback.

I think it's safe to say when anyone goes on a sixteen person killing spree it's a bit of a mental health issue.  It certainly isn't something right-thinking people do.  Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...


So the army knowing the results of TBI and this drug mixing can cause bouts of homicidal rage decided hey lets make it mandatory to use in a combat zone with lots of vets with TBI's?  <-----ARE YOU GETTING THIS?

Then you have the balls to say he's the one to blame. Thats farking stupid.

When your brain chemistry is off by that much you're litteraly insane, you CAN'T REASON.

We've long held that people that are unable to determine right from wrong are not responsible for their actions. This is why children are held to a lower standard and why we don't execute the mentaly retarded very often.
 
2013-07-15 10:04:07 AM

one-in-the-chamber: Satanic_Hamster: Popcorn Johnny: PhiloeBedoe: Don't apologize for this murderous piece of sh*t...

If it turns out he was indeed mentally ill, you're goddamn right I'm taking his side.

Now now, it's not like you wouldn't take his side regardless

please, if it was some kid who grew up in some inner city war zone here in the u.s. would you be so willing to give him a pass? no? because we have to honor the troops no matter what war crimes they commit.


funny you should mention that.  there was a study in the UK that found that the majority of gang members have a mental disorder of one type or another.  Major disorders.
 
2013-07-15 11:41:21 AM
It amazes me that anyone signs up anymore. I realize this isn't PTSD as such but with all of the stories, why does anyone volunteer? I imagine the answer has to do with young people thinking they are invulnerable (at best).
 
2013-07-15 12:06:19 PM

Jument: It amazes me that anyone signs up anymore. I realize this isn't PTSD as such but with all of the stories, why does anyone volunteer? I imagine the answer has to do with young people thinking they are invulnerable (at best).


My bro wanted to be a part of something bigger than himself. I found the church. He found the military. He thought he was joining his grandfather's military, but he's been sorely disappointed. I'm not sure he would sign up if given the chance to do it all over again. When asked about re-enlistment, he told his CO, "I want a million dollars, the duty station of my choice, and a pony since you won't give me the first two."

/I had to stuff the impulse to send his CO a "My Little Pony" figurine

For other kids, it's free education and a ticket out of the hellhole of poverty they are in. They come out of broken homes and broken families and come back with broken bodies. Sucks, but in the absence of real social programs, this is what we get. I'm hoping soon we'll also start getting coverage for civilian PTSD as much as military PTSD, because you wouldn't believe the number of times I've heard that because I'm not a soldier I don't have PTSD.
 
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