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(Hardball Talk)   Chris Davis hits his 36th home run. Now on pace to tie the real home run record of 61. No asterisk needed   (hardballtalk.nbcsports.com) divider line 76
    More: Spiffy, Brett Lawrie, Tommy Hanson, Roger Maris, slugging percentage, Marlon Byrd, steroid era, Micah Owings, Ibanez  
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632 clicks; posted to Sports » on 14 Jul 2013 at 10:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-14 08:19:24 AM  
Chris Davis hits his 36th home run. Now on pace to tie the real home run record of 61. No asterisk needed *

*yet
 
2013-07-14 08:34:20 AM  
Asterisks are for people with child-like minds that can't handle the harsh realities of life.
 
2013-07-14 09:12:57 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Asterisks are for people with child-like minds that can't handle the harsh realities of life.


But it's the cool thing to do!

Seriously, we don't put asteriskes in front of Dock's no-hitter, or any of Babe's drunken antics, or any of the thousands of players who took uppers and Adderal and the like. People cheat, it happens.  And as was said a thousand times before, steroids only help you recover from strain or injury, they don't make you suddenly more able to judge what kind of pitch is being thrown at you, how fast it will come at you, what the wind speed is, and when and where to swing at it.   And it sure won't make a pitcher more able to throw pitches right at a certain spot, or know what kind of pitches a player likes to swing in futility at.

It happened.  It won't make Babe's 60, Maris's 61 or Hank's 755 any less special, because their impressiveness is a function of the era they were playing in.

\yes, I have jumped off the Steroids Are For Cheaters bandwagon, because quite simply, I'm farking sick of it
 
2013-07-14 09:29:32 AM  
hoodedutilitarian.com
Not needed.
(But used PEDs anyway)

 
2013-07-14 09:57:24 AM  
I will withhold judgement until I see all the long form drug test results.
 
2013-07-14 10:16:05 AM  
Davis has been very vocal that

A) he considers the home run record to be Maris' 61
B) he does not use PEDs

if he hits >61 and doesn't turn up positive for PEDs or implicated with some shady pharmacy he will be considered the record holder in a lot of people's eyes.  still way early.  good on him for this season.  he is killing the ball.
 
2013-07-14 10:20:49 AM  
It's 73

Deal. With. It.
 
2013-07-14 10:32:32 AM  
cough*154*cough
 
2013-07-14 10:34:39 AM  

FriarReb98: Marcus Aurelius: Asterisks are for people with child-like minds that can't handle the harsh realities of life.

But it's the cool thing to do!

Seriously, we don't put asteriskes in front of Dock's no-hitter, or any of Babe's drunken antics, or any of the thousands of players who took uppers and Adderal and the like. People cheat, it happens.  And as was said a thousand times before, steroids only help you recover from strain or injury, they don't make you suddenly more able to judge what kind of pitch is being thrown at you, how fast it will come at you, what the wind speed is, and when and where to swing at it.   And it sure won't make a pitcher more able to throw pitches right at a certain spot, or know what kind of pitches a player likes to swing in futility at.

It happened.  It won't make Babe's 60, Maris's 61 or Hank's 755 any less special, because their impressiveness is a function of the era they were playing in.

\yes, I have jumped off the Steroids Are For Cheaters bandwagon, because quite simply, I'm farking sick of it


Blame Dick Young of the NY Daily News.  He asked Ford Frick if there should be an asterisk, and Frick started waxing poetic.  The concept stuck in the minds of the public (but if you look at all the record books between then and 1997, there's never an asterisk; it was a myth that arose purely from Frick's Ruth worship and his verbal wankery).

But with regards to home run records, the asterisk is a permanent part of the discussion.  If you go to Cooperstown, you can see the ball Barry Bonds used to hit his 756th home run, asterisk and all.  And that's the way it should be; what Mark Ecko did to the ball is part of the artifact's history and the cultural forces surrounding that era.  And when you use a museum exhibit to educate the public you tell them the whole story.
 
2013-07-14 10:35:44 AM  

SlothB77: Davis has been very vocal that

A) he considers the home run record to be Maris' 61
B) he does not use PEDs

if he hits >61 and doesn't turn up positive for PEDs or implicated with some shady pharmacy he will be considered the record holder in a lot of people's eyes.  still way early.  good on him for this season.  he is killing the ball.


I love white people, too
 
2013-07-14 10:39:15 AM  
There are two problems with steroids.  One is that we now have distorted statistics to mess with, and that makes cross-era comparisons more difficult than they already were.

The other is worse.  We don't want baseball to be like cycling, where every serious contender takes harmful drugs just to be able to compete.  That doesn't improve that game  at all.  It just hurts everyone who plays, including the poor guys toiling away in the minor leagues and the kids playing in school.
 
2013-07-14 10:48:38 AM  
FriarReb98:
\yes, I have jumped off the Steroids Are For Cheaters bandwagon, because quite simply, I'm farking sick of it

So they're just annoying you into being fine with what you know/think to be a bad thing?
 
2013-07-14 10:56:36 AM  

NetOwl: There are two problems with steroids.  One is that we now have distorted statistics to mess with, and that makes cross-era comparisons more difficult than they already were.

The other is worse.   We don't want baseball to be like cycling, where every serious contender takes harmful drugs just to be able to compete.  That doesn't improve that game  at all.  It just hurts everyone who plays, including the poor guys toiling away in the minor leagues and the kids playing in school.


I have got to get some of whatever Chris Froome is using.
 
2013-07-14 10:57:23 AM  

HaywoodJablonski: SlothB77: Davis has been very vocal that

A) he considers the home run record to be Maris' 61
B) he does not use PEDs

if he hits >61 and doesn't turn up positive for PEDs or implicated with some shady pharmacy he will be considered the record holder in a lot of people's eyes.  still way early.  good on him for this season.  he is killing the ball.

I love white people, too


I'm going with a 7/10 here.  Comes out of nowhere, yet hits you square in the face.  Short, to the point, and it's got a good rhythm that I can dance to.

Yes, a solid 7.  Should be effective.
 
2013-07-14 10:58:04 AM  

SlothB77: Davis has been very vocal that

A) he considers the home run record to be Maris' 61
B) he does not use PEDs

if he hits >61 and doesn't turn up positive for PEDs or implicated with some shady pharmacy he will be considered the record holder in a lot of people's eyes.  still way early.  good on him for this season.  he is killing the ball.


Someone who is very vocal against something that ends up getting busted for the same thing....Never happens.

/Admires Chris Davis' wide stance.
 
2013-07-14 11:01:22 AM  

Frow: Someone who is very vocal against something that ends up getting busted for the same thing....Never happens.


Well, how often has it happened in baseball?

Frank Thomas is very vocal and by all accounts was clean. Conversely Jose Canseco is vocal specifically -because- he was dirty.
 
2013-07-14 11:02:24 AM  
Tyson Gay has failed another dope test...
 
2013-07-14 11:08:14 AM  
Since he'll probably hit about 5 more in the second half, it's pointless to worry about the "real" record falling. Again.
 
2013-07-14 11:10:52 AM  

PowerSlacker: NetOwl: There are two problems with steroids.  One is that we now have distorted statistics to mess with, and that makes cross-era comparisons more difficult than they already were.

The other is worse.   We don't want baseball to be like cycling, where every serious contender takes harmful drugs just to be able to compete.  That doesn't improve that game  at all.  It just hurts everyone who plays, including the poor guys toiling away in the minor leagues and the kids playing in school.

I have got to get some of whatever Chris Froome is using.


That was an ass kicker of a stage this morning.
 
2013-07-14 11:14:05 AM  

SlothB77: Davis has been very vocal that

A) he considers the home run record to be Maris' 61
B) he does not use PEDs

if he hits >61 and doesn't turn up positive for PEDs or implicated with some shady pharmacy he will be considered the record holder in a lot of people's eyes.  still way early.  good on him for this season.  he is killing the ball.


David Ortiz said people who use steroids should be banned for baseball. Then a report came out saying he tested positive in 2003.

And you know what? Maris was possibly on steroids as well. They have been around since the 1940s (and were used in athletics since the 50s or possibly earlier). Rumor has it, Mantle was on some for his knee, told Maris about it and hooked him up. Hell, he started balding at 28 (a side effect of roids) and never had a season even close to that magical season before or after.
 
2013-07-14 11:16:11 AM  
Yes, because it's not suspicious at all that a guy who never hit more than 33 in a season now has 36 at the halfway point.
 
2013-07-14 11:23:07 AM  

machoprogrammer: SlothB77: Davis has been very vocal that

A) he considers the home run record to be Maris' 61
B) he does not use PEDs

if he hits >61 and doesn't turn up positive for PEDs or implicated with some shady pharmacy he will be considered the record holder in a lot of people's eyes.  still way early.  good on him for this season.  he is killing the ball.

David Ortiz said people who use steroids should be banned for baseball. Then a report came out saying he tested positive in 2003.

And you know what? Maris was possibly on steroids as well. They have been around since the 1940s (and were used in athletics since the 50s or possibly earlier). Rumor has it, Mantle was on some for his knee, told Maris about it and hooked him up. Hell, he started balding at 28 (a side effect of roids) and never had a season even close to that magical season before or after.


Also Tom House, a pitcher from the 70's, said that he used them in the 70's and that 5-6 pitchers on every team was using them back then.  And also steroids were being used openly in the NFL in the 50's and 60's, do people not think that baseball players weren't asking football players for tips about how to get stronger? Or baseball players weren't working with NFL strength and conditioning coaches?
 
2013-07-14 11:24:57 AM  

The Bestest: Frow: Someone who is very vocal against something that ends up getting busted for the same thing....Never happens.

Well, how often has it happened in baseball?

Frank Thomas is very vocal and by all accounts was clean. Conversely Jose Canseco is vocal specifically -because- he was dirty.


Rafael Palmeiro
 
2013-07-14 11:27:19 AM  

The Bestest: Frow: Someone who is very vocal against something that ends up getting busted for the same thing....Never happens.

Well, how often has it happened in baseball?


i.cdn.turner.com
 
2013-07-14 11:27:55 AM  
[oh lawd.jpg]

Orgasmatron138: Yes, because it's not suspicious at all that a guy who never hit more than 33 in a season now has 36 at the halfway point.


Ignoring the most of the ways that this is dumb: you do realize this is one of the latest "halfway" points in recent memory, yes?
 
das
2013-07-14 11:39:21 AM  
*
 
2013-07-14 11:56:16 AM  

js34603: Since he'll probably hit about 5 more in the second half, it's pointless to worry about the "real" record falling. Again.


We get this thread for every HR he hits. Awsome.

/ hurr real record durr
// greanies hurr Babe beer durrrrrrr
 
2013-07-14 12:23:47 PM  

Orgasmatron138: Yes, because it's not suspicious at all that a guy who never hit more than 33 in a season now has 36 at the halfway point.



Ah, the 'casual' baseball fans argument of "It must be steroids".  It could steroids, or it could be a man who is finally healthy, is starting everyday, is more comfortable at the plate, and is playing in a park with little league dimensions.
 
2013-07-14 12:24:22 PM  

crotchgrabber: PowerSlacker: NetOwl: There are two problems with steroids.  One is that we now have distorted statistics to mess with, and that makes cross-era comparisons more difficult than they already were.

The other is worse.   We don't want baseball to be like cycling, where every serious contender takes harmful drugs just to be able to compete.  That doesn't improve that game  at all.  It just hurts everyone who plays, including the poor guys toiling away in the minor leagues and the kids playing in school.

I have got to get some of whatever Chris Froome is using.

That was an ass kicker of a stage this morning.


Team Sky is just being way too obvious about their doping.  They need to dial it down a bit.
 
2013-07-14 12:24:35 PM  

machoprogrammer: SlothB77: Davis has been very vocal that

A) he considers the home run record to be Maris' 61
B) he does not use PEDs

if he hits >61 and doesn't turn up positive for PEDs or implicated with some shady pharmacy he will be considered the record holder in a lot of people's eyes.  still way early.  good on him for this season.  he is killing the ball.

David Ortiz said people who use steroids should be banned for baseball. Then a report came out saying he tested positive in 2003.

And you know what? Maris was possibly on steroids as well. They have been around since the 1940s (and were used in athletics since the 50s or possibly earlier). Rumor has it, Mantle was on some for his knee, told Maris about it and hooked him up. Hell, he started balding at 28 (a side effect of roids) and never had a season even close to that magical season before or after.


This!
 
2013-07-14 12:27:50 PM  
There's one thing Chris Davis definitely won't break this year and that's the .300 mark for the season. He'll be back to .280-.285 by the end.
 
2013-07-14 12:39:17 PM  
I used to follow baseball everyday from when I was around 8 til I was around 20.  Now, I don't even know who Chris Davis is.  Meh, growing up sucks.

Good on Davis, as long as he is clean.
 
2013-07-14 12:48:58 PM  

WTF Indeed: Orgasmatron138: Yes, because it's not suspicious at all that a guy who never hit more than 33 in a season now has 36 at the halfway point.


Ah, the 'casual' baseball fans argument of "It must be steroids".  It could steroids, or it could be a man who is finally healthy, is starting everyday, is more comfortable at the plate, and is playing in a park with little league dimensions.


Just playing the percentages. Who was the last power hitter not to eventually be implicated in PEDs?
 
2013-07-14 12:55:30 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Just playing the percentages. Who was the last power hitter not to eventually be implicated in PEDs?


Jim Thome, Adam Dunn, Fred McGriff.
 
2013-07-14 01:02:08 PM  

WTF Indeed: There's one thing Chris Davis definitely won't break this year and that's the .300 mark for the season. He'll be back to .280-.285 by the end.


Probably .285 with 50+ home runs. Yeah, that'll do.
 
2013-07-14 01:02:13 PM  

WTF Indeed: There's one thing Chris Davis definitely won't break this year and that's the .300 mark for the season. He'll be back to .280-.285 by the end.


And he'll still be the most valuable hitter on the team/division. (Given this pace)
 
2013-07-14 01:07:45 PM  

WTF Indeed: Lost Thought 00: Just playing the percentages. Who was the last power hitter not to eventually be implicated in PEDs?

Jim Thome, Adam Dunn, Fred McGriff.


Crime Dog FTW!
 
2013-07-14 01:09:38 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Who was the last power hitter not to eventually be implicated in PEDs?


That would depend on both the definition of "power hitter" and "implicated." And maybe the definition of "eventually."

Jose Bautista? Miguel Cabrera? Josh Hamilton? Albert Pujols? Prince Fielder?

Do I need to keep going? Because I can.
 
2013-07-14 01:12:48 PM  

Klippoklondike: WTF Indeed: Lost Thought 00: Just playing the percentages. Who was the last power hitter not to eventually be implicated in PEDs?

Jim Thome, Adam Dunn, Fred McGriff.

Crime Dog FTW!


+++
 
2013-07-14 01:40:10 PM  
He's probably cheating too.
 
2013-07-14 01:41:39 PM  
In other Oriole related news, Chris Tillman is now an all-star because Pitcher wins are awesome.
 
2013-07-14 01:48:21 PM  
Ah, the cycle of the "pure record" dumbass:

"Surely THIS guy will "clean up" our sacred record!"
"BREAKING: THIS guy suspended 50 games for steroid use."
"Oh, well, at least the Babe still has it!"
"BREAKING: THAT guy on pase to break home run record."
"Surely THAT guy will "clean-up" our sacred record!"
 
2013-07-14 01:52:50 PM  
Lets just go with giving asterisks to whoever hasn't gotten in trouble yet. Asterisks just mean that there's more to be explained about the situation.

For example, Maris should have had the record; Ruth's total should've been asterisked to say "154-game season"

If you asterisk Maris' total, then you have to explain that Ruth's season was shorter, which is just a stupid way of annotating things - 162 games was and is the standard at that point, so explaining that it was a 162-game season makes no sense, either.

73 is the actual record - if you want to explain that someone did it without anyone knowing about their steroid use, then put the asterisk on that person's award.

/let's not be stupid and act as though people stopped taking steroids
 
2013-07-14 01:53:33 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Asterisks are for people with child-like minds that can't handle the harsh realities of life.


Or for people who realize the difference between a 154 game season and a 162 game season. Dumbass.
 
2013-07-14 02:22:53 PM  

feanorn: Klippoklondike: WTF Indeed: Lost Thought 00: Just playing the percentages. Who was the last power hitter not to eventually be implicated in PEDs?

Jim Thome, Adam Dunn, Fred McGriff.

Crime Dog FTW!

+++


Tom Emanski FTW
 
2013-07-14 02:25:04 PM  

FriarReb98: Seriously, we don't put asteriskes in front of Dock's no-hitter, or any of Babe's drunken antics, or any of the thousands of players who took uppers and Adderal and the like. People cheat, it happens. And as was said a thousand times before, steroids only help you recover from strain or injury, they don't make you suddenly more able to judge what kind of pitch is being thrown at you, how fast it will come at you, what the wind speed is, and when and where to swing at it. And it sure won't make a pitcher more able to throw pitches right at a certain spot, or know what kind of pitches a player likes to swing in futility at.


Dock's LSD and Ruth's hot dogs and whiskey were not performance enhancers.  Neither are amphetamines, to be honest.  They are performance maintainers.  They were used to help players maintain their baseline performance when they were hung over or otherwise exhausted.  I'm not excusing them by any means, but putting them in the same category as steroids seems to be more and more common as a defense by those who either never cared about steroids or have become so jaded and tired of the discussion that they want to find a reason why they never mattered.

No, steroids don't develop hand-eye coordination or any of the other fine skills that go into hitting or pitching.  But they clearly helped players develop strength that allowed them to perform in a manner that would have otherwise been well beyond their innate abilities.  Amphetamines allowed players to maintain their innate abilities when they had had too many martinis and cigarettes the night before or were playing a day game after a twinight doubleheader in August.

I realize there are grey areas and, no matter what this is going to be some sort of sliding scale.  Many of our legal modern training techniques allow athletes to perform in ways that would have been unthinkable 100 years ago.  I'm just tired of the trend of comparing amphetamines to steroids.  I'm not excusing the amphetamines, but they are different.  Steroids have more in common with a corked bat or a Gaylord Perry Vaseline ball than they do amphetamines.
 
2013-07-14 02:26:31 PM  
Also, in relation to the thread itself, I really hope Davis is clean, because as of now, his HR total is what's cockblocking Miggy's back-to-back Triple Crown.

Assuming Davis is clean, I'll tip my cap if that happens.
 
2013-07-14 02:40:10 PM  
Make it 37 for Chris Davis, has now homered in 4 straight games.
 
2013-07-14 02:42:36 PM  

machoprogrammer: And you know what? Maris was possibly on steroids as well. They have been around since the 1940s (and were used in athletics since the 50s or possibly earlier). Rumor has it, Mantle was on some for his knee, told Maris about it and hooked him up. Hell, he started balding at 28 (a side effect of roids) and never had a season even close to that magical season before or after.


I suppose it's possible, but it's still just a theory and I would hesitate to disparage someone's name based on a tale that could have just as easily been concocted by someone who wanted to confirm their own opinions.  My grandfather started going bald in high school, and I don't think anyone accused him of being on steroids.

Maris' career was obviously very short.  But people tend to forget he was arguably the best hitter in baseball in 1960 as well.  He hit 39 home runs in only 136 games.  1961 happened to be one of the only healthy seasons he had, and it occurred at a point of the career where many people peak.  I'm not saying steroids are out of the realm of possibility, and I'm sure there are people who have researched it much more than me and have decided he was likely on them.  But let's not act like his 1961 season was completely Brady Anderson-like.  Maris was an outstanding hitter before and after 1961, just not a healthy one.
 
2013-07-14 02:49:09 PM  
I've started thinking about it this way:

1998 was one of the most fun baseball seasons in recent memory, specifically because of "The Chase". And because the two people involved - Sosa and McGwire - turned it into a friendly competition of "Anything you can do, I can do". Has all of the PED "revelations" (make no mistake; lots of people and fans either knew or strongly suspected it back then, but we didn't want to care about it) made it any less of a fun memory? No. And so, while I'm glad that there some steps being taking to curtail usage (although, obviously, it'll never fully be removed), I can't in good conscience pretend that I didn't get enjoyment out of the era.

In fact, if 70 had remained the record, I've fairly convinced that there would be much less talk about asterisks or "real records". However, because the record is held by a person who was arguably the biggest (or, at least, biggest name) perceived jerk in the sport at that time, a guy that hardly anyone liked, it is now an unclean record. It doesn't have to do with race (well, not to most fans, at least), but with likeability and timing - Bonds didn't have half the (media-friendly) personality that McGwire and Sosa did, and as such, we don't want him as the representation of one of the most famous records in sports.
 
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