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(Newser)   Accused kidnapper Ariel Castro has had 648 new counts added to his indictment, bringing the grand total to 977   (newser.com) divider line 83
    More: Followup, indictments, aggravated murder, imposition  
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5276 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jul 2013 at 4:33 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-07-13 12:20:29 PM  
512 counts of kidnapping, 446 counts of rape

Trying to set a record for piling on charges?
 
2013-07-13 12:26:28 PM  
Damn....
 
2013-07-13 01:02:27 PM  

ZAZ: 512 counts of kidnapping, 446 counts of rape

Trying to set a record for piling on charges?


I can see each instance of rape being charged as its own crime, but how do the 512 counts of kidnapping work?  He kidnapped three women, and I guess they could technically charge him for the kid born from one of the kidnapees as well, but that would only be four counts.  Does the timer run out after a certain period of time and suddenly become a new kidnapping?
 
2013-07-13 02:00:03 PM  
Just 446 counts of rape? He had the three women for ten years, 446 counts of rape seems low.
 
2013-07-13 03:14:05 PM  
If this goes to trial, it'll take the jury a week just to read the verdicts.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-07-13 03:42:57 PM  
If this goes to trial, it'll take the jury a week just to read the verdicts.

There's no way he could get an honest guilty verdict on each individual charge. He's entitled to a bill of particulars of each rape, so if he's charged with raping a particular woman on August 13, 2011 he can mount a defense (like he was out of town that day and left them chained up but didn't rape them). The jury has to deliberate whether that particular rape happened, because maybe he did do the other 511 deeds but not number 512.

There will be strong pressure on the courts to accept testimony like "he raped us six days a week for seven years" and let the jury multiply 6 times 52 times 7 and mark that many guilty verdicts. The judge might bend the rules.

It is better in these cases to have a law specially punishing a course of conduct of multiple rapes. Then the jury would decide, for example, that he raped some victim daily to weekly over the course of years. Some states have such laws. They are meant for child sexual abuse cases where it is impossible to prove the details of each act, but the evidence proves that there were multiple rapes over a period of time.
 
2013-07-13 03:47:52 PM  

ZAZ: If this goes to trial, it'll take the jury a week just to read the verdicts.

There's no way he could get an honest guilty verdict on each individual charge. He's entitled to a bill of particulars of each rape, so if he's charged with raping a particular woman on August 13, 2011 he can mount a defense (like he was out of town that day and left them chained up but didn't rape them). The jury has to deliberate whether that particular rape happened, because maybe he did do the other 511 deeds but not number 512.

There will be strong pressure on the courts to accept testimony like "he raped us six days a week for seven years" and let the jury multiply 6 times 52 times 7 and mark that many guilty verdicts. The judge might bend the rules.

It is better in these cases to have a law specially punishing a course of conduct of multiple rapes. Then the jury would decide, for example, that he raped some victim daily to weekly over the course of years. Some states have such laws. They are meant for child sexual abuse cases where it is impossible to prove the details of each act, but the evidence proves that there were multiple rapes over a period of time.


I doubt it will go to trial, at least not for long, this is just an attempt to force a plea.  I'm confused about why the prosecutor isn't seeking the death penalty though - if they came out and announced that they'd be seeking the death penalty, that would give Castro a lot of motivation to take a plea for life without parole instead.  If they're only going to seek life, then any plea would have to either give him some hope of parole or a defined term sentence short of life.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-07-13 03:57:25 PM  
I'm confused about why the prosecutor isn't seeking the death penalty though

It's a weak death penalty case. You can't (any more) execute somebody for kidnapping and rape. By Supreme Court dictate the death penalty is reserved for murder when the crime is worse than an ordinary murder. The death of the fetus is borderline manslaughter. That he also committed 900+ other crimes with other victims may not be relevant. It's going to be hard to fashion penalty phase jury instructions that give a legitimate reason for death without being so overbroad as to be reversed on appeal.
 
2013-07-13 04:19:06 PM  
Man, I can understand being evil every now and then, but it's special to be evil every day, all the time, in your own house. You'd think that would be exhausting.
 
2013-07-13 04:36:11 PM  
If he hits 1000, can we just shoot him and take the rest of the day off?
 
2013-07-13 04:36:21 PM  
I assume this is not in Texas since they didn't fast track him into the death chamber already.
 
2013-07-13 04:38:36 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: ZAZ: 512 counts of kidnapping, 446 counts of rape

Trying to set a record for piling on charges?

I can see each instance of rape being charged as its own crime, but how do the 512 counts of kidnapping work?  He kidnapped three women, and I guess they could technically charge him for the kid born from one of the kidnapees as well, but that would only be four counts.  Does the timer run out after a certain period of time and suddenly become a new kidnapping?


Every day detained is a new charge of Kidnapping.
 
2013-07-13 04:38:48 PM  

ZAZ: I'm confused about why the prosecutor isn't seeking the death penalty though

It's a weak death penalty case. You can't (any more) execute somebody for kidnapping and rape. By Supreme Court dictate the death penalty is reserved for murder when the crime is worse than an ordinary murder. The death of the fetus is borderline manslaughter. That he also committed 900+ other crimes with other victims may not be relevant. It's going to be hard to fashion penalty phase jury instructions that give a legitimate reason for death without being so overbroad as to be reversed on appeal.


I consider slavery to be a crime as bad as, if not worse, than murder.  Yes, I know that's not how are laws are set up currently, but that's a change I would agree with.  The penalty should be the same, life if not execution.  Child slavers?  Yeah, head of the line to hell.
 
2013-07-13 04:39:08 PM  
Hopefully the verdict form has a "select all" box.
 
2013-07-13 04:39:24 PM  
Of all the people who "resist arrest" and end up dead, why couldn't it have been these guys?
 
2013-07-13 04:40:02 PM  
But each count of rape is counted as rape rape, they're just trying to save paper.
 
2013-07-13 04:40:53 PM  
As a strong proponent of the death penalty, even I wouldn't want him to get the easy way out.  Let him live in captivity for the rest of his life like his victims had to live in captivity for a large portion of their lives.  Seems to be a more fitting punishment in my eyes.
 
2013-07-13 04:40:57 PM  

OgreMagi: ZAZ: I'm confused about why the prosecutor isn't seeking the death penalty though

It's a weak death penalty case. You can't (any more) execute somebody for kidnapping and rape. By Supreme Court dictate the death penalty is reserved for murder when the crime is worse than an ordinary murder. The death of the fetus is borderline manslaughter. That he also committed 900+ other crimes with other victims may not be relevant. It's going to be hard to fashion penalty phase jury instructions that give a legitimate reason for death without being so overbroad as to be reversed on appeal.

I consider slavery to be a crime as bad as, if not worse, than murder.  Yes, I know that's not how are laws are set up currently, but that's a change I would agree with.  The penalty should be the same, life if not execution.  Child slavers?  Yeah, head of the line to hell.


That wouldn't leave any incentive to keep the victims/witnesses alive.
 
2013-07-13 04:42:42 PM  

Confabulat: Man, I can understand being evil every now and then, but it's special to be evil every day, all the time, in your own house. You'd think that would be exhausting.


They are known as CEO, Wall Street, medical insurance deniers and politicians.

Lawyers and used car salesmen are just scum, not really evil.
 
2013-07-13 04:43:06 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: OgreMagi: ZAZ: I'm confused about why the prosecutor isn't seeking the death penalty though

It's a weak death penalty case. You can't (any more) execute somebody for kidnapping and rape. By Supreme Court dictate the death penalty is reserved for murder when the crime is worse than an ordinary murder. The death of the fetus is borderline manslaughter. That he also committed 900+ other crimes with other victims may not be relevant. It's going to be hard to fashion penalty phase jury instructions that give a legitimate reason for death without being so overbroad as to be reversed on appeal.

I consider slavery to be a crime as bad as, if not worse, than murder.  Yes, I know that's not how are laws are set up currently, but that's a change I would agree with.  The penalty should be the same, life if not execution.  Child slavers?  Yeah, head of the line to hell.

That wouldn't leave any incentive to keep the victims/witnesses alive.


Slavery implies you plan on keeping the person around, as this evil fark did.  We already have instances of kidnap, rape, and murder happening.  The slavery angle would also nicely cover that Saudi princess who thought it was perfectly acceptable to hold three women as slaves and work them half to death.
 
2013-07-13 04:46:00 PM  
Pffft. He is accused of crimes against white people so its no biggie. They deserved it, damn cracker whores.

Guy is damn lucky he didn't do this to a black person. I'd be the first in line for riots.
 
2013-07-13 04:46:05 PM  

ZAZ: The death of the fetus is borderline manslaughter.


How can they prove that without any medical records?  No doubt this scum deserves to be strung up by his balls and left for the crows, but you have to have more solid evidence to make a capital case stick.  I'd bet that he did do it, but you have to meet the legal standard of proof.
 
2013-07-13 04:47:38 PM  

Bravo Two: TuteTibiImperes: ZAZ: 512 counts of kidnapping, 446 counts of rape

Trying to set a record for piling on charges?

I can see each instance of rape being charged as its own crime, but how do the 512 counts of kidnapping work?  He kidnapped three women, and I guess they could technically charge him for the kid born from one of the kidnapees as well, but that would only be four counts.  Does the timer run out after a certain period of time and suddenly become a new kidnapping?

Every day detained is a new charge of Kidnapping.


Didn't he have 3 women for like 10 years? Numbers seem off.
 
2013-07-13 04:47:40 PM  

SarcasticFark: As a strong proponent of the death penalty, even I wouldn't want him to get the easy way out.  Let him live in captivity for the rest of his life like his victims had to live in captivity for a large portion of their lives.  Seems to be a more fitting punishment in my eyes.


And the rape, don't forget the rape.
 
2013-07-13 04:48:07 PM  
I bet they added a new charge every time he used the wrong knots on his shabari rope bondage as well. That's what happens when a former Eagle Scout becomes Prosecutor.
 
2013-07-13 04:49:14 PM  
They said rape 446 times.
 
2013-07-13 04:50:43 PM  

awalkingecho: Bravo Two: TuteTibiImperes: ZAZ: 512 counts of kidnapping, 446 counts of rape

Trying to set a record for piling on charges?

I can see each instance of rape being charged as its own crime, but how do the 512 counts of kidnapping work?  He kidnapped three women, and I guess they could technically charge him for the kid born from one of the kidnapees as well, but that would only be four counts.  Does the timer run out after a certain period of time and suddenly become a new kidnapping?

Every day detained is a new charge of Kidnapping.

Didn't he have 3 women for like 10 years? Numbers seem off.


you're right. It should be 10,080 counts.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-07-13 04:51:39 PM  
The press release and indictment are here: http://prosecutor.cuyahogacounty.us/mnc.aspx?type=Blog&mcid=941. There seems to be one kidnapping and one rape charge per victim per month, on average. One month has two and March, 2013 has no kidnapping charge for Jane Doe 1. There is no rape of Jane Doe 2 after September, 2012.

He is also charged with criminal possession of a 2004 Harley Davidson motorcycle (count 977 on the last page).
 
2013-07-13 04:54:11 PM  
I just want to know why this assclown is still breathing my oxygen.

The girls know he did it, he knows he did it, the cops/defense/prosecution knows, we know he did it.

Off the sick fark and be done with it.

/yeah, yeah...I know it doesn't work like that
 
2013-07-13 04:55:05 PM  
That's a good start anyway.
 
2013-07-13 04:55:40 PM  

Confabulat: Man, I can understand being evil every now and then, but it's special to be evil every day, all the time, in your own house. You'd think that would be exhausting.


at first it was, but you'd be surprised how fast the body/mind adjust......I'm assuming
 
2013-07-13 04:56:45 PM  

SarcasticFark: As a strong proponent of the death penalty, even I wouldn't want him to get the easy way out.  Let him live in captivity for the rest of his life like his victims had to live

and get raped every dayin captivity for a large portion of their lives.  Seems to be a more fitting punishment in my eyes.

FTFY
 
2013-07-13 04:57:41 PM  
We'll waive reading.
 
2013-07-13 04:57:48 PM  

YouPeopleAreCrazy: Off the sick fark and be done with it.

/yeah, yeah...I know it doesn't work like that


I sympathize with that, believe me, I do.
 
2013-07-13 05:01:24 PM  

Mrbogey: They said rape 446 times.


Came for this. Leaving satisfied.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-07-13 05:01:56 PM  
flypusher713

The law says "No person shall purposely, and with prior calculation and design, cause the death of another or the unlawful termination of another's pregnancy." Unlawful termination of pregnancy could be proved by a beating followed by miscarriage. The statute additionally requires that his intent be proved.
 
2013-07-13 05:08:53 PM  
Its no matter..  the key is that the guy will never be outside of prison again until he's dead.
 
2013-07-13 05:11:04 PM  

ZAZ: flypusher713

The law says "No person shall purposely, and with prior calculation and design, cause the death of another or the unlawful termination of another's pregnancy." Unlawful termination of pregnancy could be proved by a beating followed by miscarriage. The statute additionally requires that his intent be proved.


But how do you establish that she was pregnant ITFP?  How do you establish that that particular beating happened so long after the fact?  All you have is her word, and maybe the testimony of the other victims if they saw the miscarriage.  Maybe they get lucky and find fetal remains if scumbag was dumb enough to dispose of them on site, but that's a long shot.

They're overreaching on this charge.  They'll have to be satisfied with him getting life in prison.
 
2013-07-13 05:11:56 PM  

astouffer: Of all the people who "resist arrest" and end up dead, why couldn't it have been these guys?


He's lucky he wasn't walking down the sidewalk while wearing a hoodie.
 
2013-07-13 05:18:47 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: If this goes to trial, it'll take the jury a week just to read the verdicts.


Wouldn't take me that long... "We the jury find that he needs to have his dick and nuts chopped off and shoved down his esophagus until he chokes to death on his own penis, RIGHT NOW!"
 
2013-07-13 05:22:09 PM  

netringer: astouffer: Of all the people who "resist arrest" and end up dead, why couldn't it have been these guys?

He's lucky he wasn't walking down the sidewalk while wearing a hoodie black.


Fixed
 
2013-07-13 05:24:57 PM  
Not that I am in any way defending this monster, but can a Fark law-talking-guy explain to me how this works? I feel like this would run afoul of double-jeopardy or something - he's facing multiple indictments for what amounts to the same crime (the kidnappings). Each instance of rape is obviously a separate crime, but did he release these women and then re-kidnap them?

I'm curious primarily because I don't want his lawyers to be able to say he didn't get a fair trail.
 
2013-07-13 05:31:28 PM  

YouPeopleAreCrazy: I just want to know why this assclown is still breathing my oxygen.

The girls know he did it, he knows he did it, the cops/defense/prosecution knows, we know he did it.

Off the sick fark and be done with it.

/yeah, yeah...I know it doesn't work like that


Contrary to what you see on TV, trials are not always about the accused trying to beat the charges.
 
2013-07-13 05:36:07 PM  
Unless he goes to a super max life without parole in the gen pop is going to be a death sentence.
 
2013-07-13 05:39:34 PM  
anything over 850 or so is just excessive
 
2013-07-13 05:43:54 PM  

Lord Dimwit: Not that I am in any way defending this monster, but can a Fark law-talking-guy explain to me how this works? I feel like this would run afoul of double-jeopardy or something - he's facing multiple indictments for what amounts to the same crime (the kidnappings). Each instance of rape is obviously a separate crime, but did he release these women and then re-kidnap them?

I'm curious primarily because I don't want his lawyers to be able to say he didn't get a fair trail.


Not a law talking guy, but each and every morning he woke up, he could have opened the door and let them out. He made that conscious decision every day.
 
2013-07-13 05:48:40 PM  
i1.ytimg.com
 
2013-07-13 06:01:21 PM  

YouPeopleAreCrazy: Not a law talking guy, but each and every morning he woke up, he could have opened the door and let them out. He made that conscious decision every day.


356 * 10 years * 3 women ~= 11,500+ kidnapping counts.
 
2013-07-13 06:08:04 PM  
Every time Castro moved one of his victims a few feet, say from where they were chained up to another location in the basement for raping, that's a new Kidnapping charge. Seriously, that's how it works. If you move someone from one place to another against their will for purposes of committing a felony, that's a fresh Kidnapping charge.

When this guy gets convicted, can the defense just request the Death Penalty? He'd be better off with that than guaranteed spending the rest of his natural life in General population. I realize the law doesn't support DP in these cases, but his life is over anyway. Might as well live in solitary for protection and die on a slap rather than shivved by another Convict.
 
2013-07-13 06:25:05 PM  
That's more than 97 tens of rape.

And that's terrible.

images1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
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