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(Montreal Gazette)   As Jehovah is my Witness, I never knew blood transfusions could make things worse   (montrealgazette.com) divider line 123
    More: Interesting, Postmedia News, Jehovah's Witnesses, University of Montreal, ventilators, risk profiles, cardiac surgeons  
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8192 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jul 2013 at 1:22 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-13 08:31:19 AM  
Leave me the hell out of this!
 
2013-07-13 08:47:45 AM  
Interesting.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-07-13 09:18:45 AM  
You have to get near the end to read about how they are controlling for an obvious bias. There is a correlation between being in danger of death and receiving blood, so it would make sense if more people who got transfusions died. Doctors made two groups of similar patients and gave blood based on an objective measure, amount of hemoglobin remaining, with different thresholds in the two groups. People who probably were in equivalent health were worse off with transfusions.
 
2013-07-13 09:37:26 AM  

ZAZ: You have to get near the end to read about how they are controlling for an obvious bias. There is a correlation between being in danger of death and receiving blood, so it would make sense if more people who got transfusions died. Doctors made two groups of similar patients and gave blood based on an objective measure, amount of hemoglobin remaining, with different thresholds in the two groups. People who probably were in equivalent health were worse off with transfusions.


Yeah I read this yesterday and quit when I got to that part because I felt it was one of those articles that sucks you in with a wild claim and then if you read far enough they pull the, "well, not really but still..." bit.

The first part of the article makes it sound like doctors are transfusing with whole blood at volumes chosen on a whim.
 
2013-07-13 12:21:19 PM  
Do they put an anti-coagulant n bag blood? That could explain it.
 
2013-07-13 01:31:07 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: Leave me the hell out of this!


You're not the only former J Dub on Fark. Represent.
 
2013-07-13 01:37:03 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: Leave me the hell out of this!


Serious question: obviously, it's against the Faith the receive blood.  Also true for donating?
/And, yes, I am assuming you know something about JW, which makes me a faithist.
 
2013-07-13 01:37:46 PM  
My poor friend had some kind of measles or some other easily fixed issue and could have easily been helped by doctors but her parents were hard line and left it up to jehovah, she was sick for like 4 months
 
2013-07-13 01:39:00 PM  
"Are the Jehovah's Witnesses onto something? "

No, because they refuse medical services on bass-ackwards religious grounds.  Now if there is a scientific and empirically provable basis for minimal-blood-loss surgery being better than those relying on transfusions....
 
GBB
2013-07-13 01:40:19 PM  
The non-profit blood banks will quickly shut this down.
 
2013-07-13 01:40:42 PM  
it is their belief in god that heals them faster. atheists could learn something from this.  put your faith in god, not in science
 
2013-07-13 01:41:52 PM  
FTFA:  Are the Jehovah's Witnesses onto something?

No, they lucked into it. Their belief is based on superstition, not science.
 
2013-07-13 01:43:02 PM  

MadCat221: "Are the Jehovah's Witnesses onto something? "

No, because they refuse medical services on bass-ackwards religious grounds.  Now if there is a scientific and empirically provable basis for minimal-blood-loss surgery being better than those relying on transfusions....


Aaaand I should have read previous posts before regurgitating.
 
2013-07-13 01:48:06 PM  
i2.listal.com

JEHOVAH! JEHOVAH! JEHOVAH!
 
2013-07-13 01:51:53 PM  
It sounds like an interesting theory that needs a lot more research.
 
2013-07-13 01:56:10 PM  

spentshells: My poor friend had some kind of measles or some other easily fixed issue and could have easily been helped by doctors but her parents were hard line and left it up to jehovah, she was sick for like 4 months



Doesn't sound like JW (Former one here).  JW's have no problem with medicine, just blood and blood contrived items.   Pretty sure nothing in malaria treatment involves that.  Now OTHER religions do call god "Jehovah" so, could still be harline something, just don't think JW.


And there is no prohibition against giving blood (from what I remember)...but more of a "why bother" thing.  Was in for 20 years or so, and never knew anyone that did it... but never got the fire and brimstone of "thou shalt not donate" either.  If you consider it a sin, why enable others to sin?

But you couldn't get drunk either, and nothing stopped you from making alcohol for a living.  So <shrug>
 
2013-07-13 02:00:19 PM  

Gyrfalcon: It sounds like an interesting theory that needs a lot more research.


Honestly? Human Blood and Blood Products are one of the most dangerous medications you will ever administer in your career. The potential for a lethal reaction that you can do nothing about is incredible if you don't follow the procedures for checking and crossmatching exactly. And that's just for adult males. Women of child rearing age with an RH mismatch can have devastating effects to any pregnancy down the road. Infants and neonates have to have specially prepared blood to prevent the development of autoimmune-like reactions.

I'd honestly rather paralyze and sedate someone versus give someone their first unit of red tag blood.
 
2013-07-13 02:02:59 PM  

Reyito: spentshells: My poor friend had some kind of measles or some other easily fixed issue and could have easily been helped by doctors but her parents were hard line and left it up to jehovah, she was sick for like 4 months


Doesn't sound like JW (Former one here).  JW's have no problem with medicine, just blood and blood contrived items.   Pretty sure nothing in malaria treatment involves that.  Now OTHER religions do call god "Jehovah" so, could still be harline something, just don't think JW.


And there is no prohibition against giving blood (from what I remember)...but more of a "why bother" thing.  Was in for 20 years or so, and never knew anyone that did it... but never got the fire and brimstone of "thou shalt not donate" either.  If you consider it a sin, why enable others to sin?

But you couldn't get drunk either, and nothing stopped you from making alcohol for a living.  So <shrug>


no she was a witness "was" now shes happy with her husband growing grapes or something

I was born somewhere very remote so the guidelines were perhaps different there.
 
2013-07-13 02:04:37 PM  

Reyito: spentshells: My poor friend had some kind of measles or some other easily fixed issue and could have easily been helped by doctors but her parents were hard line and left it up to jehovah, she was sick for like 4 months


Doesn't sound like JW (Former one here).  JW's have no problem with medicine, just blood and blood contrived items.   Pretty sure nothing in malaria treatment involves that.  Now OTHER religions do call god "Jehovah" so, could still be harline something, just don't think JW.


And there is no prohibition against giving blood (from what I remember)...but more of a "why bother" thing.  Was in for 20 years or so, and never knew anyone that did it... but never got the fire and brimstone of "thou shalt not donate" either.  If you consider it a sin, why enable others to sin?

But you couldn't get drunk either, and nothing stopped you from making alcohol for a living.  So <shrug>


Goes double for measels!   /sigh, too early.
 
2013-07-13 02:06:43 PM  
"Short of those suddenly losing large amounts of blood" is a pretty big investigative restriction to put on the dangers of, you know, receiving massive amounts of donated blood.
 
2013-07-13 02:06:45 PM  

MadCat221: No, because they refuse medical services on bass-ackwards religious grounds.  Now if there is a scientific and empirically provable basis for minimal-blood-loss surgery being better than those relying on transfusions....


As an ADULT PATIENT MAKING A DETERMINATION FOR THEMSELVES (Just to make this clear) they have the right to do so if it is an informed decision.

As a parent or guardian making that decision for someone else? fark that. You wanting to kill yourself because of superstition and nonsense is one thing.
 
2013-07-13 02:19:40 PM  
Well, I'm married to a baptized Witness (I classify myself as a former-catholic deist of no denomination), so this is something that's related to the family.

As it pertains to blood, whole blood is out, but blood-derivatives are "at the conscious of the individual." I have a list around somewhere of what my wife will accept, and what she won't accept. My 15 year old has chosen the same faith and so the same thing applies (barring the government stepping in).

Interestingly enough, the ban on blood on  refers to blood that has been previously inside a person (even storing their own blood for future use). It does not pertain to blood being created from stem cells that has never been inside a person. Since I assume that is the potential future of blood transfusing, it may all be a moot point in a few years.
 
2013-07-13 02:27:51 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: [i2.listal.com image 511x787]

JEHOVAH! JEHOVAH! JEHOVAH!


Right actor, wrong character. But still a good effort all the same.

media.tumblr.com

/Originally came in here to post a South Park reference, but Python is better
 
2013-07-13 02:32:13 PM  

Spaced Lion: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: [i2.listal.com image 511x787]

JEHOVAH! JEHOVAH! JEHOVAH!

Right actor, wrong character. But still a good effort all the same.

[media.tumblr.com image 280x150]

/Originally came in here to post a South Park reference, but Python is better


Dammit! You're absolutely right. The Googles failed me.
 
2013-07-13 02:41:42 PM  

WippitGuud: It does not pertain to blood being created from stem cells that has never been inside a person. Since I assume that is the potential future of blood transfusing, it may all be a moot point in a few years.


Interesting theory, but the field of artificial blood creation for human beings is littered with dead people from renal failure.
 
2013-07-13 02:44:53 PM  
If your religion does not allow you to receive blood transfusions i say don't get any. Let nature, and natural selection, take its course.(*)

/*unless you're a child forced to by an idiot parent
 
2013-07-13 02:51:39 PM  

ontariolightning: jehovahs witness protection: Leave me the hell out of this!

You're not the only former J Dub on Fark. Represent.


Same here. Raised in the "Truth" - as they call it - by my grandmother, and I got out after I started college. They're basically a cult like Scientology, but without the expensive E-meter courses and aliens.
 
2013-07-13 02:57:09 PM  

hardinparamedic: MadCat221: No, because they refuse medical services on bass-ackwards religious grounds.  Now if there is a scientific and empirically provable basis for minimal-blood-loss surgery being better than those relying on transfusions....

As an ADULT PATIENT MAKING A DETERMINATION FOR THEMSELVES (Just to make this clear) they have the right to do so if it is an informed decision.

As a parent or guardian making that decision for someone else? fark that. You wanting to kill yourself because of superstition and nonsense is one thing.


The last I saw, NYS was allowing medics up near Albany (Saratoga area? ) to run with the artificial stuff... the issue being they could only use it on people who either were in the process of are had already coded due to trauma arrest, so I'm not sure how that was going to help much or how they'd even be able to tell if it helped statistically... but hell - that was back in '05 - and I was west of Albany - in the Schenectady and parts west area at the time...
 
2013-07-13 02:57:18 PM  
Can i interest you heathens in the latest issues of the Watchtower and Awake magazines? You'll burn in hell if you say no. ಠ_ಠ


/former JW here too. Can't believe so many people fall for that shiat.
 
2013-07-13 02:59:42 PM  

cxwe090: Can i interest you heathens in the latest issues of the Watchtower and Awake magazines? You'll burn in hell if you say no. ಠ_ಠ


/former JW here too. Can't believe so many people fall for that shiat.


Are you sure you were a Witness? They don't believe in Hell, and they call non-JW's "worldly", not heathens.
 
2013-07-13 03:01:30 PM  
Don't use this to try to defend the farking Jehovah's Witnesses. They're a farking cult, not dissimilar to the Scientologists except they hide behind the Bible and just because of this anecdotal evidence doesn't mean their bullshiat about bloodless doctors is any more true.

/sorry, emotional on the subject,  had a gf who was a witness and there are horror stories
 
2013-07-13 03:02:09 PM  

FuryOfFirestorm: cxwe090: Can i interest you heathens in the latest issues of the Watchtower and Awake magazines? You'll burn in hell if you say no. ಠ_ಠ


/former JW here too. Can't believe so many people fall for that shiat.

Are you sure you were a Witness? They don't believe in Hell, and they call non-JW's "worldly", not heathens.


 I know...i know. It's been 20 years since i stepped foot in a kingdom hall. I think like a worldly person now..and i'm okay with that. Parents forced me into it at a young age.
 
2013-07-13 03:05:08 PM  

cxwe090: Parents forced me into it at a young age.


14 right? They gave you the "choice" at that age?
 
2013-07-13 03:07:33 PM  

BostonEMT: hardinparamedic: MadCat221: No, because they refuse medical services on bass-ackwards religious grounds.  Now if there is a scientific and empirically provable basis for minimal-blood-loss surgery being better than those relying on transfusions....

As an ADULT PATIENT MAKING A DETERMINATION FOR THEMSELVES (Just to make this clear) they have the right to do so if it is an informed decision.

As a parent or guardian making that decision for someone else? fark that. You wanting to kill yourself because of superstition and nonsense is one thing.

The last I saw, NYS was allowing medics up near Albany (Saratoga area? ) to run with the artificial stuff... the issue being they could only use it on people who either were in the process of are had already coded due to trauma arrest, so I'm not sure how that was going to help much or how they'd even be able to tell if it helped statistically... but hell - that was back in '05 - and I was west of Albany - in the Schenectady and parts west area at the time...


They actually stopped using the artificial stuff in 2008. All the manufacturers pulled it from the Phase II and III studies that were going on. We were doing trials with the Expired Human Blood Hemoglobin-derived stuff in Memphis and stopped. Not only were they showing no benefit on survival to discharge in patients, but they were showing massively increased rates of renal failure in shock patients above that of what should have been seen in properly resuscitated individuals.

Honestly, expect to see 3% or 7% Saline solutions being used in the near future for trauma fluid resuscitation, with judicious use of LR making a come back based on what we've learned in Iraq and Afghanistan. The oncotic pressure of hypertonic saline draws fluid which would be third spacing in decompensated shock back into the vasculature, and helps auto-transfuse volume.  Tennessee is debating whether to allow Paramedics to start initial blood infusions in the field with red tag, rather than just being able to start follow-up units and monitor ongoing infusions.
 
2013-07-13 03:07:44 PM  
I'd say about 70 % of the kids I grew up with at the Kingdom Hall got the heck out of there when they became 18-20. And with the elderly ones dying off they have had to combine with another town just to have enough people every week. It's great news.
 
2013-07-13 03:08:22 PM  
Here's my "theory."  The surgeon knows the JW is not going to take blood so he pays extra care because he knows he can't fark it up.
 
2013-07-13 03:08:29 PM  

Mugato: Don't use this to try to defend the farking Jehovah's Witnesses. They're a farking cult, not dissimilar to the Scientologists except they hide behind the Bible and just because of this anecdotal evidence doesn't mean their bullshiat about bloodless doctors is any more true.

/sorry, emotional on the subject,  had a gf who was a witness and there are horror stories


Never understood horror stories. I find the people in my wife's congregation are fine.
 
2013-07-13 03:09:18 PM  

WippitGuud: Never understood horror stories. I find the people in my wife's congregation are fine.


The first time you see a child die because the parents refuse a blood transfusion, it's a horror story in and of itsself.
 
2013-07-13 03:09:48 PM  

Mugato: cxwe090: Parents forced me into it at a young age.

14 right? They gave you the "choice" at that age?


No. More like 6. It wasn't until i turned 19 that i realized it was all bullshiat.
14 is when i was baptized because the "end times were here" and i didn't want to miss enjoying that sweet sweet paradise here on earth. XD
 
2013-07-13 03:09:49 PM  

FuryOfFirestorm: They don't believe in Hell


The ones in my neck of the woods sure as fark do. But then again, most of them are mean-spirited busybody women who were booted out of the local baptist church for being too old-testamenty. And I'm sure that having an excuse - however flimsy - to proselytize door-to-door had something to do with it as well.

/Mind you, this was a baptist church from which I am banned for arguing with the pastor's wife regarding their insistence that a female friend of mine not be allowed to go to the bathroom unattended.
 
2013-07-13 03:09:50 PM  

FuryOfFirestorm: ontariolightning: jehovahs witness protection: Leave me the hell out of this!

You're not the only former J Dub on Fark. Represent.

Same here. Raised in the "Truth" - as they call it - by my grandmother, and I got out after I started college. They're basically a cult like Scientology, but without the expensive E-meter courses and aliens.


Me too. I was born in "the truth" left when I was 21.  Articles like this are such BS because you know that they have already written three Awake articles that will quote it.

The truth is many medical procedures can be overused, but Jdubs are like the anti-vax movement (interesting trivia, Jdubs were anti-vax until sometime in the late 60's early 70s), they grab onto bits and pieces of medical info and use it to prove they're right.  I remember all the "OMG you get blood, you'll get AIDS" articles from the 80's.  Once the risk of HIV from blood transfusions dropped to almost nothing, they moved back to the "blood is dirty" position.

If you really want to make yourself nuts look at the JW positions on blood components.  It is so conflicted and confusing that when put together it is almost laughable.  http://www.ajwrb.org/articles/articles/really_abstain.php

Glad there are so many apostates here on Fark, so it will soon be banned for all the spiritual JWs, if it's not already.
 
2013-07-13 03:09:52 PM  

BenJammin: Here's my "theory."  The surgeon knows the JW is not going to take blood so he pays extra care because he knows he can't fark it up.


So, the trick to getting the best from your doctor is to call yourself JW? :)
 
2013-07-13 03:11:23 PM  

hardinparamedic: . The oncotic pressure of hypertonic saline draws fluid which would be third spacing in decompensated shock back into the vasculature, and helps auto-transfuse volume


I fell asleep somewhere around "hypertonic"
 
2013-07-13 03:11:36 PM  

hardinparamedic: WippitGuud: Never understood horror stories. I find the people in my wife's congregation are fine.

The first time you see a child die because the parents refuse a blood transfusion, it's a horror story in and of itsself.


I agree.

But I've also read stories about children being forced to get one, and still dying. Which is just as bad.
 
2013-07-13 03:12:41 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: hardinparamedic: . The oncotic pressure of hypertonic saline draws fluid which would be third spacing in decompensated shock back into the vasculature, and helps auto-transfuse volume

I fell asleep somewhere around "hypertonic"


sodium and chloride ions in blood have a gang bang with multiple water molecules and make the tube they're in more crowded.
 
2013-07-13 03:13:35 PM  

TappingTheVein: If your religion does not allow you to receive blood transfusions i say don't get any. Let nature, and natural selection, take its course.(*)

/*unless you're a child forced to by an idiot parent


Agreed.  Except they are rather proud of killing their children for their farkin' religion

www.cftf.com
 
2013-07-13 03:14:44 PM  

WippitGuud: Mugato: Don't use this to try to defend the farking Jehovah's Witnesses. They're a farking cult, not dissimilar to the Scientologists except they hide behind the Bible and just because of this anecdotal evidence doesn't mean their bullshiat about bloodless doctors is any more true.

/sorry, emotional on the subject,  had a gf who was a witness and there are horror stories

Never understood horror stories. I find the people in my wife's congregation are fine.


I've seen a fair number of families get torn apart due to JW policies. We've had a few child molesters in our congregation which was covered up by the elders until a sister had enough and called the police. Guess what happened to her? She was punished. She was almost disfellowshipped. They made her beg to stay. Made her sit in the back. Was not allowed to participate for months. A few years later she died of cancer. Her death was mentioned as a side note. I have horror stories, boy do I have them.
 
2013-07-13 03:15:42 PM  
We had a Jehovah's Witness society editor at a newspaper I used to work at. One Monday she came in all flushed and proud of her accomplishment over the weekend. She bragged in the newsroom that "We built a Kingdom Hall in just TWO DAYS!"

Our sports editor immediately retorted, "That's BLASPHEMY! It took Jesus Christ THREE DAYS to raise the temple! Do you think you're better than GOD?!?"

She spent the rest of the day surreptitiously looking in her JW bible for a rebuttal. We laughed and laughed.
 
2013-07-13 03:15:46 PM  
Both JWs and Jews agree that consuming blood is taboo because God says so in the Bible.

Both agree that receiving a blood transfusion counts as consuming blood but JWs are absolutist about this while Jews are relative in that saving someone's life can overcome the blood taboo (similar to it is ok to eat pork if the alternative is starving to death).
 
2013-07-13 03:16:48 PM  

WippitGuud: But I've also read stories about children being forced to get one, and still dying. Which is just as bad.


I disagree completely. Typically at the point they are "forced to get one", it's by a judges order and that takes hours. Hours, and even minutes mean life or death for a critical patient who needs a transfusion. While that judge debates, his or her body is destroying itsself. We're not talking about scheduled transfusions because little Billy is going into surgery. We're talking about needing blood because he has bled out all his oxygen carrying capacity in the floorboard of his car, or because he now has a belly full of blood from a ruptured liver.

In a critical situation when someone needs a transfusion, it's not something that can wait. It's literally something that means the difference between life and death. Shock is not a wait and see thing. If you wait to treat it, you will end up with a patient who crashes on you without you realizing how sick they were, or who has Multiple Organ Dysfunction Syndrome and dies a week later in the ICU from renal and liver failure with a dead gut.
 
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