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(AZCentral)   Energy company in Arizona is encouraging homeowners to put solar panels on their roofs by offering all kinds of incentives. Just kidding. They're threatening to jack up the monthly bill of anybody who does that   (azcentral.com) divider line 49
    More: Asinine, energy industry, bonuses, natural kind, ratepayers, rooftops, solar panels, homeowners, Arizona Corporation Commission  
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14670 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jul 2013 at 2:22 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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2013-07-12 02:39:00 AM
12 votes:
Not smart, utility manager CFO person. In ten, 20 years you may NEED your customers' ability to distribute electrical loads, maybe even draw power from everyone's electric cars when there's a brief excess demand.

Your average Arizonan is retired, watches their bill like a hawk, and has no problem holding a grudge against a utility for decades more.

For example: my parents. In the 1980's some brilliant AT&T exec decided that touch tone dialing would cost an extra monthly $1 or whatever. Nope, my parents were more than happy with their pulse rotary dialing phone, kthxbye Mr AT&T person. Then AT&T wanted all customers to upgrade to touch tone. Nope. Not gonna happen. Then my parents were the last people on that switch still using rotary and AT&T really really really needed their pulse rotary phone off their system.

It's 2013 and my parents still pulse dial out of spite over that stupid shortsighted touch tone dial surcharge from 30 years ago.

They also are thinking of buying an electric car and if the utility ever wants to do that "smart" distributed power thing where they temporarily draw power from electric cars? My dad will be in the garage, unplugging the car. Because he's retired, and has nothing better to do than pay the utility back for their petty billing act over the next couple of decades.
2013-07-12 02:12:42 AM
10 votes:

Asa Phelps: are these people feeding power back into the grid? because if so they do cause the power company some headaches.


Yes - The meter can spin backwards if you generate more than you draw. Of course, during the peak hours you might pay $0.25/kWh for usage, but if your array does generate more than it draws, you only get the off-peak rate of about $0.05/kWh in crediting towards your bill (despite it generating during peak time). So APS is already making $0.15/kWh off of your panels by reselling your power when they need it, but now they want another $100/mo?

I won't invest in solar since they're a 5-10 year ROI, but this would basically negate that indefinitely. Which is of course what APS wants, and I hope the regulators see this.
2013-07-12 02:57:00 AM
6 votes:
You couldn't pay me to live in that shiathole of a state.
2013-07-12 02:56:26 AM
5 votes:
img593.imageshack.us

imageshack.us
2013-07-12 02:56:10 AM
5 votes:
WAITAFARKINGMINUTE... these corporate assholes want to charge people MORE because they refuse to waste their product?
"Bu-bu-bu the grid is on 24 hours a day!" SO FARKING WHAT? I pay for the time I'm using the grid.
THIS is why solar is catching hell, not the cost of the panels or any of that sh*t. The corporations want that cashflow to their greedy assed shareholders.

Fark that sh*t. NO.
2013-07-12 02:43:08 AM
5 votes:

Asa Phelps: are these people feeding power back into the grid? because if so they do cause the power company some headaches.

If they just have a box that doesn't draw from the grid unless the solar panels and batteries aren't cutting it, there isn't really a "service" that APS is providing them.


Feeding power back only causes headaches if they have a shiatty power grid.

If they have a non-shiatty grid, it provides a significant benefit to the power companies because the power company doesn't need to generate as much power to meet demand of businesses during the day.  Look at the power demand curve (CAISO, for instance) and you'll understand.  Power draw during business hours is much higher than during non-business hours.  All of that excess energy generated by solar systems helps normalize the demand on the power company's generating systems.  And solar is very predictable and reliable with the amount generated correlating pretty well with that peak demand during business hours.  They couldn't design a more useful supplementary power system if they tried.
2013-07-12 01:51:23 AM
4 votes:
corporate douchebaggery
2013-07-12 01:38:44 AM
4 votes:
are these people feeding power back into the grid? because if so they do cause the power company some headaches.

If they just have a box that doesn't draw from the grid unless the solar panels and batteries aren't cutting it, there isn't really a "service" that APS is providing them.
2013-07-12 02:45:09 AM
3 votes:
This is why infastructure should not be privatised.

It doesn't make sense for everyone to duplicate storage and inverters.
2013-07-12 02:39:21 AM
3 votes:

dangelder: How is Arizona not 100% solar already? I could probably make a killing there if I designed and produced some kind of simple solar-powered fan or AC unit.


Politics, pure politics. That's why.
2013-07-12 02:35:19 AM
3 votes:
How is Arizona not 100% solar already? I could probably make a killing there if I designed and produced some kind of simple solar-powered fan or AC unit.
2013-07-12 02:26:16 AM
3 votes:

Asa Phelps: are these people feeding power back into the grid? because if so they do cause the power company some headaches.

If they just have a box that doesn't draw from the grid unless the solar panels and batteries aren't cutting it, there isn't really a "service" that APS is providing them.


Actually that can be quite useful to the power companies. The big issue these days with power isn't generation, it is distribution. In the Us we have adequate generation for our needs and we can build more as needed. However distribution is an issue, because people don't want power plants near their house. It is a constant issue for grid controllers how to get power to people at peak times without overloading segments of the grid. Solar panels can really help, particularly since they tend to do a lot of output when it is hot, which is when the load is high in AZ. Since they are local, not at the end of big links (which are what gets overloaded) it works well.
2013-07-12 09:43:01 AM
2 votes:
Nothing new. Utilities don't like to lose money. They tell people to conserve energy, then complain because people conserved energy so much that their electric/water/gas bills were lower, so the utility companies need to jack their rates to make up the lost income. You can't win.

Here in the DC area after we had the derecho last year and people were without power for 2 weeks PEPCO charged people for NOT having power. Turns out there was some specially written law that in order to make up for lost revenue of people not having power PEPCO could charge them for not having power. True story bro.
2013-07-12 09:22:19 AM
2 votes:

Gig103: Asa Phelps: are these people feeding power back into the grid? because if so they do cause the power company some headaches.

Yes - The meter can spin backwards if you generate more than you draw. Of course, during the peak hours you might pay $0.25/kWh for usage, but if your array does generate more than it draws, you only get the off-peak rate of about $0.05/kWh in crediting towards your bill (despite it generating during peak time). So APS is already making $0.15/kWh off of your panels by reselling your power when they need it, but now they want another $100/mo?

I won't invest in solar since they're a 5-10 year ROI, but this would basically negate that indefinitely. Which is of course what APS wants, and I hope the regulators see this.


My parents in the UK have solar panels. They were able to get back their investment in 3 years. That's in the UK. You know that dark dreary land of rain and misery. I imagine they work better in a desert waste land. The only thing that stops massive renewable energy for solar panels is the power companies themselves and the politicians they bought complaining that their bottom pocket is hurt because no one likes them because they jack up their prices 10% every year and it results in mysteriously 10% less electricity used every year in response.
2013-07-12 07:38:45 AM
2 votes:
Because Fark you, that's why.

It's like in VA where if you have a hybrid, you have to pay an extra fee for not using as much gas (and paying gas tax). So where does the fuel efficiency/extra tax mark start? What if you just have a really efficent gas engine that gets 50 mpg? No, no extra tax, it's not a hybrid. Honda CR-Z that gets 36 mpg? It's gonna cost you extra.

It seems like politians get kickbacks to allow these rules to kill inovation from smaller startup companies who are cutting into the big boy's pockets.

Everyone biatches about high gas costs and the inevitable shortfall of gas. So someone comes up with an answer. But it costs someone else money. So it gets taxed/surcharged so much that it's not worth the effort. This in turn keeps down the research which would make the product even better and more cost effective. As long as some rich white guy can get another billion dollars, who cares. He's got his.
2013-07-12 07:34:37 AM
2 votes:

Lady J: Bontesla:
I live in Georgia. My power bill is about 200 in the summer. I own a small 1390 sqft ranch home.

Every time my contract is up, I shop for the most competitive rates. I think I've switched companies every year... But I have the luxury of choice.

I don't know what a ranch home is, but you describe that as small. i can't remember the exact dimensions of my place but I'd say yours is double the size of mine.

i think in general property is a lot bigger in the US and that's part of the difference in power spend


Partly.  Also America's grid has a lot of inefficiencies due to all the piecemeal ways it was developed.  It is a LOT hotter here.  A lot of our architecture is designed to be inefficient (bad window placement, poor heat management in the kitchen, poor lighting design/placement).  We have greedy energy companies.  NIMBYs refuse to allow sensible power construction, the giant anti-green movement.  It goes on and on.

My power bill ranges from 3 to 5 times yours (assuming average currency exchange) I'm in 1007 square feet.  Honestly I think the biggest waste continues to be the over-sized TV though (wasn't my idea or my purchase) which sucks down power and then generates a lot of heat that has to be cooled down.

I suspect the UK is "so super-expensive" because if you're a foreigner or even a local who has spent time living abroad you're probably living in London or one of the other major cities.  Poketown, USA to New York City is a difference of 300-600% cost-of-living and I'm betting it's the same if the international traveler who talks about your country being "sooo expensive" never leaves the most expensive part of the country,

If they even "live" there at all, a hotel is a lot more expensive than an apartment, but I know which one I'll be using when I'm a tourist.
2013-07-12 03:03:16 AM
2 votes:

Asa Phelps: are these people feeding power back into the grid? because if so they do cause the power company some headaches.


Except in a place like Arizona, photo voltaic produces power in phase with demand from air conditioning.  Thus reducing the amount of peeking power needed to supply the grid.  And supplying power at night, you ever see an 'adult community' after 9pm?  It's lights out.
2013-07-12 02:45:50 AM
2 votes:
We're starting to need a Zonie tag. It's like Florida with less hot chicks and more boring food.
2013-07-12 02:43:21 AM
2 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: It never really made sense that they would pay individual energy producers for power. I'm surprised that this kind of thing hasn't already been enacted.

Tepco here in Japan, reeling from the sudden reduced energy usage after the tsunami, decided that raising rates to keep revenue levels up was a better course of action than letting their management bonuses lapse.


Have a citation for that? That strikes me as.. something a gaijin would do.

/Gaijin
//I'd like to go back at some point. 86-89.
///Miss Tokyo.
2013-07-12 02:36:00 AM
2 votes:
Solar power is unnatural and against Gods will. Why would he go to the trouble of creating natural oil for us to use, straight from the earth, if he wanted us to mess with science.
2013-07-12 02:27:43 AM
2 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: It never really made sense that they would pay individual energy producers for power. I'm surprised that this kind of thing hasn't already been enacted.

Tepco here in Japan, reeling from the sudden reduced energy usage after the tsunami, decided that raising rates to keep revenue levels up was a better course of action than letting their management bonuses lapse.


It's comforting to know that assholes are everywhere. Reaffirms faith in the universal order.
2013-07-12 02:14:43 PM
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: flondrix: BarkingUnicorn: If they're getting no service, why don't they just withdraw from the grid? Oh, because they need it sometimes. But when they need it and it works for them, that's not a service that APS provides. Just look at how foolish you look!

So people who use less electricity from the grid should have an extra surcharge, to punish them for the power they're not using?

Are you punished with insurance premiums for staying healthy?  If so, you do not understand insurance.


Do insurance companies charge you extra for being too healthy?  If not, then they are not punishing you.  This utility company wants to charge you a hundred bucks a month extra if you have a solar panel.
2013-07-12 11:40:19 AM
1 votes:

trappedspirit: LOL first cloudy day and suddenly we all need 100% of the grid.  How does shiat work?


Do you know how few truly cloudy days there are here?
2013-07-12 11:39:36 AM
1 votes:
It isn't about money-grubbing capitalists (this time) as much as it's about outdated regulatory structure - and I say this as a proud socialist, electric car owner, unaffiliated with the utility industry.

The utility industry is our most Soviet sector - planning, rates, etc. are all controlled by government agencies (State PUCs). Keep this in mind when talking about "market rates" for electricity. The utilities' rates are government-set, to allow them some "fair" return on infrastructure investment and profit on generation.

Solar grid-tie customers get scrod on net metering because while you're covering the generation, you're not covering the infrastructure, which is why the utility pays less than the rate they charge customers. There's no particularly "fair" way around that.

If we blanketed buildings everywhere in grid-tied solar panels this would be wonderful for the economy, the planet, and long-term utility costs. And devastating to utilities' regulated business model.

The low-hanging solution would be to decouple generation and transmission into different companies, but that didn't work out so well in California. Complete deregulation wouldn't work because transmission is a natural monopoly. Nationalizing transmission seems like a good solution (but to us that always seems like a good solution).
2013-07-12 10:19:27 AM
1 votes:

alienated: Meanwhile, in that sunny paradise that is Germany ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany

Plus, they have kind of a "i generate twice as much power as your haus, mein freunde. hahaha "


Yeah, I noticed this a LOT when I was in Germany a few weeks ago on vacation- especially in the smaller towns that we passed through on the trains. You'd see lots of barns and garages with the roofs completely covered with PV panels, and we saw plenty of large arrays set up in fields too. Was an interesting contrast to Venice, where we thought it would make a lot more sense but I don't think I saw a single panel while there...
2013-07-12 09:21:37 AM
1 votes:

Generation_D: I knew a guy in the 1980s who was a WWII veteran. He had a crank phone that generated its own power, and for fun one day he plugged that into the tone dial network GTE ran.

By "ringing" that phone, he caused a spot outage at the local switch box/"Central Office" (affecting the neigborhood) because he just zapped it with whatever current one of those things put out, and the circuitry hadn't had to handle one of those in 30 years.

They sent a nice repairman out who told him don't do that again.


That reminds of a story I got from a Consumers lineman.  He was out one night trying to restore power after a storm when he found a branch resting on a line that caused the big fuse to blow.  He pulled the blown fuse and went to remove the branch before he could replace the fuse restoring power.  The line should be dead, but he still had his safety gloves on as he reached for the branch.  Sparks jumped from the branch to his fingers, the line was still charged.  A farmer up the line had his generator wired wrong and was back feeding and catching a transformer before the spot my friend was at and therefore the line was fully charged.  They had to make the farmer shut off his generator in order to finish the work, and I sure some repercussions were dealt.  My friend wouldn't be here if he didn't stop and put the big gloves and boots on, stopping him from being the ground.
2013-07-12 08:45:10 AM
1 votes:
AZ has crazy great sun for electric production.  Rooftop solar should be freaking CODE in that part of the country.  And if you give me one months worth of what we spent on the Iraq war, I might just be able to pull it off.
2013-07-12 08:39:41 AM
1 votes:

Gig103: Asa Phelps: are these people feeding power back into the grid? because if so they do cause the power company some headaches.

Yes - The meter can spin backwards if you generate more than you draw. Of course, during the peak hours you might pay $0.25/kWh for usage, but if your array does generate more than it draws, you only get the off-peak rate of about $0.05/kWh in crediting towards your bill (despite it generating during peak time). So APS is already making $0.15/kWh off of your panels by reselling your power when they need it, but now they want another $100/mo?

I won't invest in solar since they're a 5-10 year ROI, but this would basically negate that indefinitely. Which is of course what APS wants, and I hope the regulators see this.


It's not about a return on investment for me -- it's about using less non-renewable power overall.  It's also why our next car is going to be a Prius...
2013-07-12 07:54:39 AM
1 votes:

Satanic_Hamster: Install a maintenance charge.  That everyone has to pay, regardless of use.


How much would you like to bet that maintenance charge is already on the bill?
2013-07-12 07:45:36 AM
1 votes:
$50-100 dollars?  So they're admitting they have no idea how much it costs and they're just throwing the number out there?

Install a maintenance charge.  That everyone has to pay, regardless of use.
2013-07-12 07:14:24 AM
1 votes:

Bonzo_1116: Freschel: dangelder: How is Arizona not 100% solar already? I could probably make a killing there if I designed and produced some kind of simple solar-powered fan or AC unit.

Politics, pure politics. That's why.

Keeping down solar in Arizona makes hippies cry. Isn't that reason enough?


The sad part being this is an actual (distressingly common) ethos.  "I'm anti-green because I hate hippies.  I've never even MET a damn hippy but I hate 'em that much anyway!   I'd rather hurt the environment than save money!  Take that stupid hippies!"
2013-07-12 06:47:45 AM
1 votes:

PunGent: Lady J: payattention: Lady J -christ on a bike! my electricity bill is about 25 quid a month. that's what... 35 dollars? do you have AC in the dog's kennel??

No offense M'Lady, but in some places the temperature can go above 80F...err 26.6C.... which is something you may not be familiar with living where you do...

so you/they are spending 397-35=362 dollars a month on AC and refrigeration? (obviously I have a fridge, but it doesnt have to work as hard as yours/theirs)

that seems... a lot

Yes, but us real 'Mericans don't have to pay a license fee to watch television...


a whopping tenner a month. what are you spending on cable / equivalent?

in fact, from that verizon article yesterday I gather you guys also pay a shiatload for landline and mobile phone.

im coming across as defensive i realise and I'm not [much]. i just wonder whether it's become easy and bandwagony to rip on the UK as being incredily expensive, when it's actually not.
2013-07-12 06:45:48 AM
1 votes:

cuzsis: StopLurkListen: Not smart, utility manager CFO person. In ten, 20 years you may NEED your customers' ability to distribute electrical loads, maybe even draw power from everyone's electric cars when there's a brief excess demand.

Your average Arizonan is retired, watches their bill like a hawk, and has no problem holding a grudge against a utility for decades more.

For example: my parents. In the 1980's some brilliant AT&T exec decided that touch tone dialing would cost an extra monthly $1 or whatever. Nope, my parents were more than happy with their pulse rotary dialing phone, kthxbye Mr AT&T person. Then AT&T wanted all customers to upgrade to touch tone. Nope. Not gonna happen. Then my parents were the last people on that switch still using rotary and AT&T really really really needed their pulse rotary phone off their system.

It's 2013 and my parents still pulse dial out of spite over that stupid shortsighted touch tone dial surcharge from 30 years ago.

They also are thinking of buying an electric car and if the utility ever wants to do that "smart" distributed power thing where they temporarily draw power from electric cars? My dad will be in the garage, unplugging the car. Because he's retired, and has nothing better to do than pay the utility back for their petty billing act over the next couple of decades.

That's...that's just impressive.

/bravo!


Drawing power off peoples cars is stupid. Drain the cars power leaving them unable to make the daily commute because its hot or the grid has issues... not to mention shortening a $5k batteries lifespan.
great plan.
I would sit down and rig the battery to switch off when the voltage drops while plugged in.
2013-07-12 05:50:54 AM
1 votes:
This shows the lie that is energy companies encouraging people to save energy.

All they want is more money for less product.

"Yeah, sure. Use less electricity. Whatever. We still want the same money though..."
2013-07-12 04:38:10 AM
1 votes:

StopLurkListen: Not smart, utility manager CFO person. In ten, 20 years you may NEED your customers' ability to distribute electrical loads, maybe even draw power from everyone's electric cars when there's a brief excess demand.

Your average Arizonan is retired, watches their bill like a hawk, and has no problem holding a grudge against a utility for decades more.

For example: my parents. In the 1980's some brilliant AT&T exec decided that touch tone dialing would cost an extra monthly $1 or whatever. Nope, my parents were more than happy with their pulse rotary dialing phone, kthxbye Mr AT&T person. Then AT&T wanted all customers to upgrade to touch tone. Nope. Not gonna happen. Then my parents were the last people on that switch still using rotary and AT&T really really really needed their pulse rotary phone off their system.

It's 2013 and my parents still pulse dial out of spite over that stupid shortsighted touch tone dial surcharge from 30 years ago.

They also are thinking of buying an electric car and if the utility ever wants to do that "smart" distributed power thing where they temporarily draw power from electric cars? My dad will be in the garage, unplugging the car. Because he's retired, and has nothing better to do than pay the utility back for their petty billing act over the next couple of decades.


Derek? No seriously?

/on a side note my buddy Derek, his parents did the same thing. They were Dutch Protestant Reform so basically cheap ass Scots with Dutch/Jew Religion. They tried to charge them some nominal $20 fee to upgrade to tone dialing. They didn't want too. Up until 2010 or so they still had the rotary pulse dial. They only reason they switched was because they were the last ones on the circuit and the utilities company begged them too. They were costing the phone company somewhere around $20k a month to keep the old rotary dial system alive....just for them.

Once they told his Dad that he got very serious (because the Dutch/Scot/Jew that he is) and told them in no uncertain terms that if they were willing to facilitate him with free phone service for life and a FREE phone that he would gladly switch over to touch tone. The regional manager did not know what to say... he said the free phone service would not be a problem but the actual phone might be a problem. What kind did he want? What color? How many receivers? He just simply replied the "nicest one you can find."

A package arrived less than a week later, with a three receivers $150+ VTEC phone, plus free phone service (not even paying the tax) for life.

// He considered that us getting "one up" on them
/// Even though I would have told them to piss off (and laughed at the end of each month)
Ni
2013-07-12 03:55:40 AM
1 votes:

Asa Phelps: as i understand it, there are maintenance & management costs incurred by having so many different sources of current, but most of them are related to synchronizing generator waveforms.


Then you don't understand it. The inverter for solar panels does exactly that. It synchs waveforms perfectly. In times of excess production, it ramps up the voltage to feed it back into the grid. And if the power is lost, the inverter shuts down so that the lineman who comes out to fix it doesn't zap the shiat out of himself from the other direction.

The only possible issue is if the power company uses idiotic meters that can't handle reverse flow... but I haven't heard of anyone installing those in a sunbelt state. That would be the most insanely dumb thing to do, but I guess that wouldn't surprise me... we are talking the Home of Arpaio.

zzrhardy: This is why infastructure should not be privatised.
It doesn't make sense for everyone to duplicate storage and inverters.


I hear you talking, but not making any sense. Very few people use storage who are on the grid, and inverters make perfect sense.

There's this thing called capacitance which results in transmission loss even on the high tension wires. When your house is 300 miles from the coal-smokin' generator and needs 50 kWh of power, they have to send you maybe 60 kWh because a lot of electrons will be lost travelling 300 miles due to the wires not being superconductors. And they have to send extra for all your neighbors, too.

However, if "infrastructure was privatized" by the homeowners, suddenly the efficiency goes way the hell up because it doesn't have to travel 300 mi to get to you, but more like 300 feet. And what you don't use goes only another couple hundred feet to your neighbors. As a result, during peak times the ripoff power company doesn't have to stoke up the fires and in fact gets a huge bonus due to higher efficiency in solar-dense areas. So let's say you produce twice what you need and feed the rest to your neighbor, the power company has to send both of you 0 kWh and pay for 100kWh (which you produced), when they would have normally had to send 120kWh and charge for 100kWh. They basically saved themselves 20kWh and did nothing.
2013-07-12 03:55:15 AM
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Abner Doon: BarkingUnicorn: This is the same battle that's being fought between electric car makers and State depts. of transportation.  Even if your car uses zero gasoline, you still have to pay for the farking roads to drive it on.

Except driving a car has a net negative impact on society as a whole.  Installing and using solar panels has a net positive impact on society as a whole.  So government has a vested interest in subsidizing solar panels, whereas it has none in subsidizing cars.

Oh, yes, cars have a net negative impact on society; that is why there are so few of them, and so few miles of roads for them to use.


Are you seriously arguing that there's a bunch of them, so they must be good for society?  Because I don't think I even have to bother refuting that.

But ignoring that, and going into more detail, yes you driving a car is a net negative.  It'd be far far better overall if you used public transportation of some kind, or at least car-pooled, thus having less cars on the road.  Keep in mind, here "better" means for society as a whole, counting in the cost to the environment and etc.  Having roads and such infrastructure is a net positive, you personally driving is not.  Seems a bit counter-intuitive at first I guess, but if you think about it it's pretty obvious.
2013-07-12 03:23:07 AM
1 votes:
Meanwhile, in that sunny paradise that is Germany ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany

Plus, they have kind of a "i generate twice as much power as your haus, mein freunde. hahaha "
2013-07-12 03:20:11 AM
1 votes:

Rising_Zan_Samurai_Gunman: I can see maybe tacking on an extra maintenance fee, but $50-100 a month seems insane. While I realize we don't have to run the AC as much here as in Arizona, I've never had my electric bill over $200.


Cheap, quickly built homes with zero, and I mean, zero insulation = $300 a month and up for under 2000sf. I'm not kidding, I could put my hand on an exterior wall and feel the heat through it.

dangelder: How is Arizona not 100% solar already? I could probably make a killing there if I designed and produced some kind of simple solar-powered fan or AC unit.


Because solar is for hippies, and Aribama is 100% red-blooded Amurricans.
2013-07-12 03:15:43 AM
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: This is the same battle that's being fought between electric car makers and State depts. of transportation.  Even if your car uses zero gasoline, you still have to pay for the farking roads to drive it on.


Except driving a car has a net negative impact on society as a whole.  Installing and using solar panels has a net positive impact on society as a whole.  So government has a vested interest in subsidizing solar panels, whereas it has none in subsidizing cars.
2013-07-12 03:15:00 AM
1 votes:

HotWingAgenda: We're starting to need a Zonie tag. It's like Florida with less hot chicks and more boring food.


We have hot chicks. Sometimes they even catch fire, if they don't apply the sunblock. I don't even want to hear derp about the food, Sonoran cuisine is amazing.
2013-07-12 03:10:20 AM
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Until solar systems are totally self-sufficient day or night, rain or shine, customers need the grid and have to pay for it. So, solar industry, get busy and make such systems.   That's innovation; this is politicking.


They do make these systems. But it would be a ridiculous waste of energy and resources to require city users to all put in their own seperate battery banks and inverters.

The whole idea of clean energy is to reduce waste.
2013-07-12 03:04:42 AM
1 votes:

HotWingAgenda: We're starting to need a Zonie tag. It's like Florida with less hot chicks and more boring food.


?  Food here in Phoenix is actually quite good and varied, not sure where you're getting that.  There's good Mexican of course, lots of very quality Thai places for some reason, a few random African countries, most of Asia represented in good restaurants.  I can't think of any kind of food that doesn't have at least one good restaurant here.  You can even get very good buffalo wings.
2013-07-12 02:57:32 AM
1 votes:

sminkypinky: Solar power is unnatural and against Gods will. Why would he go to the trouble of creating natural oil for us to use, straight from the earth, if he wanted us to mess with science.


If God wanted us to use solar energy, He would have put it everywhere, like gas stations.
2013-07-12 02:42:06 AM
1 votes:

Freschel: dangelder: How is Arizona not 100% solar already? I could probably make a killing there if I designed and produced some kind of simple solar-powered fan or AC unit.

Politics, pure politics. That's why.


Keeping down solar in Arizona makes hippies cry. Isn't that reason enough?
2013-07-12 02:35:42 AM
1 votes:

sycraft: Asa Phelps: are these people feeding power back into the grid? because if so they do cause the power company some headaches.

If they just have a box that doesn't draw from the grid unless the solar panels and batteries aren't cutting it, there isn't really a "service" that APS is providing them.

Actually that can be quite useful to the power companies. The big issue these days with power isn't generation, it is distribution. In the Us we have adequate generation for our needs and we can build more as needed. However distribution is an issue, because people don't want power plants near their house. It is a constant issue for grid controllers how to get power to people at peak times without overloading segments of the grid. Solar panels can really help, particularly since they tend to do a lot of output when it is hot, which is when the load is high in AZ. Since they are local, not at the end of big links (which are what gets overloaded) it works well.


as i understand it, there are maintenance & management costs incurred by having so many different sources of current, but most of them are related to synchronizing generator waveforms.
2013-07-12 02:35:12 AM
1 votes:
I can see maybe tacking on an extra maintenance fee, but $50-100 a month seems insane. While I realize we don't have to run the AC as much here as in Arizona, I've never had my electric bill over $200.
2013-07-12 02:25:36 AM
1 votes:
It never really made sense that they would pay individual energy producers for power. I'm surprised that this kind of thing hasn't already been enacted.

Tepco here in Japan, reeling from the sudden reduced energy usage after the tsunami, decided that raising rates to keep revenue levels up was a better course of action than letting their management bonuses lapse.
2013-07-12 02:12:10 AM
1 votes:

Bucky Katt: corporate douchebaggery


Meh. They did suck when I was on lines they maintained, but just about everything they try to do, good or bad, is still regulated by the elected commissioners of the corporation commission. And the ACC likes renewable energy.
 
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