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(AZCentral)   Energy company in Arizona is encouraging homeowners to put solar panels on their roofs by offering all kinds of incentives. Just kidding. They're threatening to jack up the monthly bill of anybody who does that   (azcentral.com) divider line 187
    More: Asinine, energy industry, bonuses, natural kind, ratepayers, rooftops, solar panels, homeowners, Arizona Corporation Commission  
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14657 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jul 2013 at 2:22 AM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-12 04:15:34 AM

StopLurkListen: Not smart, utility manager CFO person. In ten, 20 years you may NEED your customers' ability to distribute electrical loads, maybe even draw power from everyone's electric cars when there's a brief excess demand.

Your average Arizonan is retired, watches their bill like a hawk, and has no problem holding a grudge against a utility for decades more.

For example: my parents. In the 1980's some brilliant AT&T exec decided that touch tone dialing would cost an extra monthly $1 or whatever. Nope, my parents were more than happy with their pulse rotary dialing phone, kthxbye Mr AT&T person. Then AT&T wanted all customers to upgrade to touch tone. Nope. Not gonna happen. Then my parents were the last people on that switch still using rotary and AT&T really really really needed their pulse rotary phone off their system.

It's 2013 and my parents still pulse dial out of spite over that stupid shortsighted touch tone dial surcharge from 30 years ago.

They also are thinking of buying an electric car and if the utility ever wants to do that "smart" distributed power thing where they temporarily draw power from electric cars? My dad will be in the garage, unplugging the car. Because he's retired, and has nothing better to do than pay the utility back for their petty billing act over the next couple of decades.


That's...that's just impressive.

/bravo!
 
2013-07-12 04:17:28 AM

cuzsis: StopLurkListen: Not smart, utility manager CFO person. In ten, 20 years you may NEED your customers' ability to distribute electrical loads, maybe even draw power from everyone's electric cars when there's a brief excess demand.

Your average Arizonan is retired, watches their bill like a hawk, and has no problem holding a grudge against a utility for decades more.

For example: my parents. In the 1980's some brilliant AT&T exec decided that touch tone dialing would cost an extra monthly $1 or whatever. Nope, my parents were more than happy with their pulse rotary dialing phone, kthxbye Mr AT&T person. Then AT&T wanted all customers to upgrade to touch tone. Nope. Not gonna happen. Then my parents were the last people on that switch still using rotary and AT&T really really really needed their pulse rotary phone off their system.

It's 2013 and my parents still pulse dial out of spite over that stupid shortsighted touch tone dial surcharge from 30 years ago.

They also are thinking of buying an electric car and if the utility ever wants to do that "smart" distributed power thing where they temporarily draw power from electric cars? My dad will be in the garage, unplugging the car. Because he's retired, and has nothing better to do than pay the utility back for their petty billing act over the next couple of decades.

That's...that's just impressive.

/bravo!


I can only hope to be half that crotchety and vengeful when I reach old age
 
2013-07-12 04:20:56 AM

violentsalvation: HotWingAgenda: We're starting to need a Zonie tag. It's like Florida with less hot chicks and more boring food.

We have hot chicks. Sometimes they even catch fire, if they don't apply the sunblock. I don't even want to hear derp about the food, Sonoran cuisine is amazing.


And I live in the part of the state that has more New Mexico cuisine than Sonoran. Arizona would be an awesome state minus the assholes. Same with Utah.
 
2013-07-12 04:22:25 AM
What a load of B.S. Our panels produce our entire demand. We pay $18/month in fees and such for the privilege of being connected to the grid. This is the same as if we had a meter with nothing connected to it.The utility doesn't even see what we feed back during the day in any real sense. Our meter is connected to a 15 k.v.a. transformer that also feeds three other meters. At mid day when we feed back these three other neighbors are using a whole lot more. So our array reverses current for a whole 200 feet of the grid. BTW I paid the entire cost of running that 200 feet when the house was built - so the utility "maintains" that line but didn't incur any cost to install it.
 
2013-07-12 04:27:01 AM

Abner Doon: HotWingAgenda: We're starting to need a Zonie tag. It's like Florida with less hot chicks and more boring food.

?  Food here in Phoenix is actually quite good and varied, not sure where you're getting that.  There's good Mexican of course, lots of very quality Thai places for some reason, a few random African countries, most of Asia represented in good restaurants.  I can't think of any kind of food that doesn't have at least one good restaurant here.  You can even get very good buffalo wings.


I know you're trying to defend it--yes, we do have a curiously high number of decent Thai establishments--and I respect the effort ... but it's not worth it, man. It's not worth it.
 
2013-07-12 04:31:54 AM

Infobahn: I saw this on the news, and I don't think that the rate hike would prevent me from putting panels on my roof.  You still are paying far less than you would if you were 100% relying on APS/SRP. (This month's electric bill, $397 for a 2400 sf house - I am at $150 in the winter).

When we were shopping for a house, I would ask the agent if it was APS or SRP (then what bandwidth was available).  I think RE agents need to understand that these things really matter.


christ on a bike! my electricity bill is about 25 quid a month. that's what... 35 dollars? do you have AC in the dog's kennel??
 
2013-07-12 04:33:54 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Abner Doon: BarkingUnicorn: Abner Doon: BarkingUnicorn: This is the same battle that's being fought between electric car makers and State depts. of transportation.  Even if your car uses zero gasoline, you still have to pay for the farking roads to drive it on.

Except driving a car has a net negative impact on society as a whole.  Installing and using solar panels has a net positive impact on society as a whole.  So government has a vested interest in subsidizing solar panels, whereas it has none in subsidizing cars.

Oh, yes, cars have a net negative impact on society; that is why there are so few of them, and so few miles of roads for them to use.

Are you seriously arguing that there's a bunch of them, so they must be good for society?  Because I don't think I even have to bother refuting that.

It would have less of a net negative impact on society if you just wrote, "I can't refute that."  Every bit transmitted over the Internet pollutes, y'know.

Obviously, cars have had great positive impact on society and continue to  do so.  Show me a town or even a subdivision that is built without roads, parking spaces, garages, gas stations, etc.  Car bring people.  People  bring money. Cars or trucks bring stuff. People buy stuff.  It's called an economy.


But ignoring that, and going into more detail, yes you driving a car is a net negative.  It'd be far far better overall if you used public transportation of some kind, or at least car-pooled, thus having less cars on the road.  Keep in mind, here "better" means for society as a whole, counting in the cost to the environment and etc.  Having roads and such infrastructure is a net positive, you personally driving is not.  Seems a bit counter-intuitive at first I guess, but if you think about it it's pretty obvious.

Then it would be better for society if we lived 100 to a barracks, ate in mess halls, and shared toothbrushes, too.


I can't wait for that utopia. I hope we ride bikes and mules everywhere. We don't really need to travel to other places, we can spend our whole lives in the villages where we grew up. No one needs more than half an hour of computer time a day. Imagine how productive we'll be! And let's not get started and air conditioning and heating and television. And while we're at it let's get rid of airplanes, ocean liners and plastic. Think of the negative impacts!

There is no reason anyone should want to live in the country or away from other people, or travel to any place a bus doesn't go, ever. Let's just put everyone inside a giant borg cube, that would be so much more efficient.
 
2013-07-12 04:34:30 AM

Bonzo_1116: AverageAmericanGuy: It never really made sense that they would pay individual energy producers for power. I'm surprised that this kind of thing hasn't already been enacted.

Tepco here in Japan, reeling from the sudden reduced energy usage after the tsunami, decided that raising rates to keep revenue levels up was a better course of action than letting their management bonuses lapse.

It's comforting to know that assholes are everywhere. Reaffirms faith in the universal order.


Yep. Nothing makes me sleep better at night knowing assholes are pointing at the behavior of other assholes to justify their assholeish behavior.

I'm surrounded by assholes!

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-07-12 04:37:07 AM
Arizona is what California points to when people laugh at us.
 
2013-07-12 04:38:10 AM

StopLurkListen: Not smart, utility manager CFO person. In ten, 20 years you may NEED your customers' ability to distribute electrical loads, maybe even draw power from everyone's electric cars when there's a brief excess demand.

Your average Arizonan is retired, watches their bill like a hawk, and has no problem holding a grudge against a utility for decades more.

For example: my parents. In the 1980's some brilliant AT&T exec decided that touch tone dialing would cost an extra monthly $1 or whatever. Nope, my parents were more than happy with their pulse rotary dialing phone, kthxbye Mr AT&T person. Then AT&T wanted all customers to upgrade to touch tone. Nope. Not gonna happen. Then my parents were the last people on that switch still using rotary and AT&T really really really needed their pulse rotary phone off their system.

It's 2013 and my parents still pulse dial out of spite over that stupid shortsighted touch tone dial surcharge from 30 years ago.

They also are thinking of buying an electric car and if the utility ever wants to do that "smart" distributed power thing where they temporarily draw power from electric cars? My dad will be in the garage, unplugging the car. Because he's retired, and has nothing better to do than pay the utility back for their petty billing act over the next couple of decades.


Derek? No seriously?

/on a side note my buddy Derek, his parents did the same thing. They were Dutch Protestant Reform so basically cheap ass Scots with Dutch/Jew Religion. They tried to charge them some nominal $20 fee to upgrade to tone dialing. They didn't want too. Up until 2010 or so they still had the rotary pulse dial. They only reason they switched was because they were the last ones on the circuit and the utilities company begged them too. They were costing the phone company somewhere around $20k a month to keep the old rotary dial system alive....just for them.

Once they told his Dad that he got very serious (because the Dutch/Scot/Jew that he is) and told them in no uncertain terms that if they were willing to facilitate him with free phone service for life and a FREE phone that he would gladly switch over to touch tone. The regional manager did not know what to say... he said the free phone service would not be a problem but the actual phone might be a problem. What kind did he want? What color? How many receivers? He just simply replied the "nicest one you can find."

A package arrived less than a week later, with a three receivers $150+ VTEC phone, plus free phone service (not even paying the tax) for life.

// He considered that us getting "one up" on them
/// Even though I would have told them to piss off (and laughed at the end of each month)
 
2013-07-12 05:05:23 AM
who loves the sun since you broke my heart?
 
2013-07-12 05:11:33 AM
Lady J -christ on a bike! my electricity bill is about 25 quid a month. that's what... 35 dollars? do you have AC in the dog's kennel??

No offense M'Lady, but in some places the temperature can go above 80F...err 26.6C.... which is something you may not be familiar with living where you do...
 
2013-07-12 05:26:11 AM

payattention: Lady J -christ on a bike! my electricity bill is about 25 quid a month. that's what... 35 dollars? do you have AC in the dog's kennel??

No offense M'Lady, but in some places the temperature can go above 80F...err 26.6C.... which is something you may not be familiar with living where you do...


so you/they are spending 397-35=362 dollars a month on AC and refrigeration? (obviously I have a fridge, but it doesnt have to work as hard as yours/theirs)

that seems... a lot
 
2013-07-12 05:39:00 AM
I wonder how many batteries $100 a month could buy.
 
2013-07-12 05:46:36 AM

payattention: Lady J -christ on a bike! my electricity bill is about 25 quid a month. that's what... 35 dollars? do you have AC in the dog's kennel??

No offense M'Lady, but in some places the temperature can go above 80F...err 26.6C.... which is something you may not be familiar with living where you do...


I dont think you mean 26.6. it's been high twenties all week this week.
 
2013-07-12 05:50:54 AM
This shows the lie that is energy companies encouraging people to save energy.

All they want is more money for less product.

"Yeah, sure. Use less electricity. Whatever. We still want the same money though..."
 
2013-07-12 05:51:19 AM
Stay classy AZ
 
2013-07-12 05:53:44 AM
I assume if you live without electricity entirely there's a fee for that too?
 
2013-07-12 05:54:03 AM

Lady J: payattention: Lady J -christ on a bike! my electricity bill is about 25 quid a month. that's what... 35 dollars? do you have AC in the dog's kennel??

No offense M'Lady, but in some places the temperature can go above 80F...err 26.6C.... which is something you may not be familiar with living where you do...

I dont think you mean 26.6. it's been high twenties all week this week.


Assuming your in the UK, you must be living in a one room house and in the dark most of the time to get your bills that low!
 
2013-07-12 05:56:14 AM

BarkingUnicorn: If they're getting no service, why don't they just withdraw from the grid? Oh, because they need it sometimes. But when they need it and it works for them, that's not a service that APS provides. Just look at how foolish you look!


So people who use less electricity from the grid should have an extra surcharge, to punish them for the power they're not using?
 
2013-07-12 06:01:01 AM

I'm no expert but...: Lady J: payattention: Lady J -christ on a bike! my electricity bill is about 25 quid a month. that's what... 35 dollars? do you have AC in the dog's kennel??

No offense M'Lady, but in some places the temperature can go above 80F...err 26.6C.... which is something you may not be familiar with living where you do...

I dont think you mean 26.6. it's been high twenties all week this week.

Assuming your in the UK, you must be living in a one room house and in the dark most of the time to get your bills that low!


2 bedroom house. just the two of us. we're both at work all day but the cat's home surfing the internet and leaving the freezer door open, and when me and Lord J are home we're conscious of being smart energy wise but we don't 'go without' to save money

in fairness heating etc is gas. we're paying just over £40 a month on gas, but that's an average of ~£15 a month in the summer and a lot more in the winter. when we get the dbl glazing done downstairs that'll go down
 
2013-07-12 06:20:12 AM

Lady J: I'm no expert but...: Lady J: payattention: Lady J -christ on a bike! my electricity bill is about 25 quid a month. that's what... 35 dollars? do you have AC in the dog's kennel??

No offense M'Lady, but in some places the temperature can go above 80F...err 26.6C.... which is something you may not be familiar with living where you do...

I dont think you mean 26.6. it's been high twenties all week this week.

Assuming your in the UK, you must be living in a one room house and in the dark most of the time to get your bills that low!

2 bedroom house. just the two of us. we're both at work all day but the cat's home surfing the internet and leaving the freezer door open, and when me and Lord J are home we're conscious of being smart energy wise but we don't 'go without' to save money

in fairness heating etc is gas. we're paying just over £40 a month on gas, but that's an average of ~£15 a month in the summer and a lot more in the winter. when we get the dbl glazing done downstairs that'll go down


I just checked my own leccy bill and for a 3 bed semi with 2 adults and 2 kids and it is only £45 a month, so, well, yeah, guess I'll just shut mah mouth! Gas is £60 but that mainly because of our freezing spring.
 
2013-07-12 06:25:52 AM
More corporate dickery
 
2013-07-12 06:28:22 AM

SearchN: AverageAmericanGuy: It never really made sense that they would pay individual energy producers for power. I'm surprised that this kind of thing hasn't already been enacted.

Tepco here in Japan, reeling from the sudden reduced energy usage after the tsunami, decided that raising rates to keep revenue levels up was a better course of action than letting their management bonuses lapse.

Have a citation for that? That strikes me as.. something a gaijin would do.

/Gaijin
//I'd like to go back at some point. 86-89.
///Miss Tokyo.


You're Miss Tokyo?  Because in your profile pic, no offense, but you look like kind of a dog...
 
2013-07-12 06:35:00 AM

PunGent: SearchN: AverageAmericanGuy: It never really made sense that they would pay individual energy producers for power. I'm surprised that this kind of thing hasn't already been enacted.

Tepco here in Japan, reeling from the sudden reduced energy usage after the tsunami, decided that raising rates to keep revenue levels up was a better course of action than letting their management bonuses lapse.

Have a citation for that? That strikes me as.. something a gaijin would do.

/Gaijin
//I'd like to go back at some point. 86-89.
///Miss Tokyo.

You're Miss Tokyo?  Because in your profile pic, no offense, but you look like kind of a dog...


Dude, that's not nice.

We say "differently attractive person" now.
 
2013-07-12 06:35:07 AM
"They have said that generating power close to where it is used saves the cost of building new power plants, as well as high-voltage power lines that would bring that power to the city. That also prevents "line losses" or electricity that is wasted when transmitted long distances.

APS officials agree that rooftop solar can bring about those benefits, but so far they have not prevented the company from having to build new infrastructure.
"We are miles apart on our numbers," said Chuck Miessner, pricing manager for APS, referring to the value rooftop solar companies ascribe to their installations."


Critical point.  They need MORE solar generators not less.  I also believe a specific tax by the tax would be a violation of interstate commerce clause or would setup the power company for anti-trust suits.
 
2013-07-12 06:38:52 AM

Lady J: payattention: Lady J -christ on a bike! my electricity bill is about 25 quid a month. that's what... 35 dollars? do you have AC in the dog's kennel??

No offense M'Lady, but in some places the temperature can go above 80F...err 26.6C.... which is something you may not be familiar with living where you do...

so you/they are spending 397-35=362 dollars a month on AC and refrigeration? (obviously I have a fridge, but it doesnt have to work as hard as yours/theirs)

that seems... a lot


Yes, but us real 'Mericans don't have to pay a license fee to watch television...
 
2013-07-12 06:45:48 AM

cuzsis: StopLurkListen: Not smart, utility manager CFO person. In ten, 20 years you may NEED your customers' ability to distribute electrical loads, maybe even draw power from everyone's electric cars when there's a brief excess demand.

Your average Arizonan is retired, watches their bill like a hawk, and has no problem holding a grudge against a utility for decades more.

For example: my parents. In the 1980's some brilliant AT&T exec decided that touch tone dialing would cost an extra monthly $1 or whatever. Nope, my parents were more than happy with their pulse rotary dialing phone, kthxbye Mr AT&T person. Then AT&T wanted all customers to upgrade to touch tone. Nope. Not gonna happen. Then my parents were the last people on that switch still using rotary and AT&T really really really needed their pulse rotary phone off their system.

It's 2013 and my parents still pulse dial out of spite over that stupid shortsighted touch tone dial surcharge from 30 years ago.

They also are thinking of buying an electric car and if the utility ever wants to do that "smart" distributed power thing where they temporarily draw power from electric cars? My dad will be in the garage, unplugging the car. Because he's retired, and has nothing better to do than pay the utility back for their petty billing act over the next couple of decades.

That's...that's just impressive.

/bravo!


Drawing power off peoples cars is stupid. Drain the cars power leaving them unable to make the daily commute because its hot or the grid has issues... not to mention shortening a $5k batteries lifespan.
great plan.
I would sit down and rig the battery to switch off when the voltage drops while plugged in.
 
2013-07-12 06:47:24 AM

jtown: Asa Phelps: are these people feeding power back into the grid? because if so they do cause the power company some headaches.

If they just have a box that doesn't draw from the grid unless the solar panels and batteries aren't cutting it, there isn't really a "service" that APS is providing them.

Feeding power back only causes headaches if they have a shiatty power grid.

If they have a non-shiatty grid, it provides a significant benefit to the power companies because the power company doesn't need to generate as much power to meet demand of businesses during the day.  Look at the power demand curve (CAISO, for instance) and you'll understand.  Power draw during business hours is much higher than during non-business hours.  All of that excess energy generated by solar systems helps normalize the demand on the power company's generating systems.  And solar is very predictable and reliable with the amount generated correlating pretty well with that peak demand during business hours.  They couldn't design a more useful supplementary power system if they tried.


I recently read that the majority of power grids are in desperate need of upgrades.

I suspect that it's much more cost effective to let the power grids fail at such a regular rate that power companies can raise the rates without a fight in order to pay for the upgrades.
 
2013-07-12 06:47:45 AM

PunGent: Lady J: payattention: Lady J -christ on a bike! my electricity bill is about 25 quid a month. that's what... 35 dollars? do you have AC in the dog's kennel??

No offense M'Lady, but in some places the temperature can go above 80F...err 26.6C.... which is something you may not be familiar with living where you do...

so you/they are spending 397-35=362 dollars a month on AC and refrigeration? (obviously I have a fridge, but it doesnt have to work as hard as yours/theirs)

that seems... a lot

Yes, but us real 'Mericans don't have to pay a license fee to watch television...


a whopping tenner a month. what are you spending on cable / equivalent?

in fact, from that verizon article yesterday I gather you guys also pay a shiatload for landline and mobile phone.

im coming across as defensive i realise and I'm not [much]. i just wonder whether it's become easy and bandwagony to rip on the UK as being incredily expensive, when it's actually not.
 
2013-07-12 06:51:39 AM

Lady J: Infobahn: I saw this on the news, and I don't think that the rate hike would prevent me from putting panels on my roof.  You still are paying far less than you would if you were 100% relying on APS/SRP. (This month's electric bill, $397 for a 2400 sf house - I am at $150 in the winter).

When we were shopping for a house, I would ask the agent if it was APS or SRP (then what bandwidth was available).  I think RE agents need to understand that these things really matter.

christ on a bike! my electricity bill is about 25 quid a month. that's what... 35 dollars? do you have AC in the dog's kennel??


I live in Georgia. My power bill is about 200 in the summer. I own a small 1390 sqft ranch home.

Every time my contract is up, I shop for the most competitive rates. I think I've switched companies every year... But I have the luxury of choice.
 
2013-07-12 06:54:45 AM

Lady J: PunGent: Lady J: payattention: Lady J -christ on a bike! my electricity bill is about 25 quid a month. that's what... 35 dollars? do you have AC in the dog's kennel??

No offense M'Lady, but in some places the temperature can go above 80F...err 26.6C.... which is something you may not be familiar with living where you do...

so you/they are spending 397-35=362 dollars a month on AC and refrigeration? (obviously I have a fridge, but it doesnt have to work as hard as yours/theirs)

that seems... a lot

Yes, but us real 'Mericans don't have to pay a license fee to watch television...

a whopping tenner a month. what are you spending on cable / equivalent?

in fact, from that verizon article yesterday I gather you guys also pay a shiatload for landline and mobile phone.

im coming across as defensive i realise and I'm not [much]. i just wonder whether it's become easy and bandwagony to rip on the UK as being incredily expensive, when it's actually not.


When I bundled my cable and Internet, I was paying a little over 100. We dropped cable and installed an HD antenna so now the cable is free and I pay about 25 for Internet.
 
2013-07-12 06:59:27 AM
Bontesla:
I live in Georgia. My power bill is about 200 in the summer. I own a small 1390 sqft ranch home.

Every time my contract is up, I shop for the most competitive rates. I think I've switched companies every year... But I have the luxury of choice.


I don't know what a ranch home is, but you describe that as small. i can't remember the exact dimensions of my place but I'd say yours is double the size of mine.

i think in general property is a lot bigger in the US and that's part of the difference in power spend
 
2013-07-12 07:09:01 AM
Wherever there's an American, there's a raging douchebag.
 
2013-07-12 07:10:11 AM
sycraft:
The big issue these days with power isn't generation, it is distribution. In the Us we have adequate generation for our needs and we can build more as needed.

I hate to be "that guy" but technically speaking the problem is transmission, not distribution.Transmission lines are what bridge the gap between generation and local distribution. Power at a generation facility is stepped up at one transformer, sent a long ass distance (What? it's a technical term, right?) along the lines on those large towers you see in the toolies, then stepped down at a transformer closer to your users, which is where the lines in your neighborhood come into play. Local transformers mounted on poles or pads step down the voltage one more time before the power reaches your house. When people talk about the power grid, they're generally referring to the transmission network.
 
2013-07-12 07:14:24 AM

Bonzo_1116: Freschel: dangelder: How is Arizona not 100% solar already? I could probably make a killing there if I designed and produced some kind of simple solar-powered fan or AC unit.

Politics, pure politics. That's why.

Keeping down solar in Arizona makes hippies cry. Isn't that reason enough?


The sad part being this is an actual (distressingly common) ethos.  "I'm anti-green because I hate hippies.  I've never even MET a damn hippy but I hate 'em that much anyway!   I'd rather hurt the environment than save money!  Take that stupid hippies!"
 
2013-07-12 07:21:55 AM

StopLurkListen: It's 2013 and my parents still pulse dial out of spite over that stupid shortsighted touch tone dial surcharge from 30 years ago.


Your parents sound awesome, I like them.
 
2013-07-12 07:34:37 AM

Lady J: Bontesla:
I live in Georgia. My power bill is about 200 in the summer. I own a small 1390 sqft ranch home.

Every time my contract is up, I shop for the most competitive rates. I think I've switched companies every year... But I have the luxury of choice.

I don't know what a ranch home is, but you describe that as small. i can't remember the exact dimensions of my place but I'd say yours is double the size of mine.

i think in general property is a lot bigger in the US and that's part of the difference in power spend


Partly.  Also America's grid has a lot of inefficiencies due to all the piecemeal ways it was developed.  It is a LOT hotter here.  A lot of our architecture is designed to be inefficient (bad window placement, poor heat management in the kitchen, poor lighting design/placement).  We have greedy energy companies.  NIMBYs refuse to allow sensible power construction, the giant anti-green movement.  It goes on and on.

My power bill ranges from 3 to 5 times yours (assuming average currency exchange) I'm in 1007 square feet.  Honestly I think the biggest waste continues to be the over-sized TV though (wasn't my idea or my purchase) which sucks down power and then generates a lot of heat that has to be cooled down.

I suspect the UK is "so super-expensive" because if you're a foreigner or even a local who has spent time living abroad you're probably living in London or one of the other major cities.  Poketown, USA to New York City is a difference of 300-600% cost-of-living and I'm betting it's the same if the international traveler who talks about your country being "sooo expensive" never leaves the most expensive part of the country,

If they even "live" there at all, a hotel is a lot more expensive than an apartment, but I know which one I'll be using when I'm a tourist.
 
2013-07-12 07:38:45 AM
Because Fark you, that's why.

It's like in VA where if you have a hybrid, you have to pay an extra fee for not using as much gas (and paying gas tax). So where does the fuel efficiency/extra tax mark start? What if you just have a really efficent gas engine that gets 50 mpg? No, no extra tax, it's not a hybrid. Honda CR-Z that gets 36 mpg? It's gonna cost you extra.

It seems like politians get kickbacks to allow these rules to kill inovation from smaller startup companies who are cutting into the big boy's pockets.

Everyone biatches about high gas costs and the inevitable shortfall of gas. So someone comes up with an answer. But it costs someone else money. So it gets taxed/surcharged so much that it's not worth the effort. This in turn keeps down the research which would make the product even better and more cost effective. As long as some rich white guy can get another billion dollars, who cares. He's got his.
 
2013-07-12 07:45:36 AM
$50-100 dollars?  So they're admitting they have no idea how much it costs and they're just throwing the number out there?

Install a maintenance charge.  That everyone has to pay, regardless of use.
 
2013-07-12 07:45:43 AM

MythDragon: Because Fark you, that's why.

It's like in VA where if you have a hybrid, you have to pay an extra fee for not using as much gas (and paying gas tax). So where does the fuel efficiency/extra tax mark start? What if you just have a really efficent gas engine that gets 50 mpg? No, no extra tax, it's not a hybrid. Honda CR-Z that gets 36 mpg? It's gonna cost you extra.

It seems like politians get kickbacks to allow these rules to kill inovation from smaller startup companies who are cutting into the big boy's pockets.

Everyone biatches about high gas costs and the inevitable shortfall of gas. So someone comes up with an answer. But it costs someone else money. So it gets taxed/surcharged so much that it's not worth the effort. This in turn keeps down the research which would make the product even better and more cost effective. As long as some rich white guy can get another billion dollars, who cares. He's got his.


Huh? The fee is for the special license plates so you can use the HOV lanes.
 
2013-07-12 07:46:14 AM

Gig103: Yes - The meter can spin backwards if you generate more than you draw. Of course, during the peak hours you might pay $0.25/kWh for usage, but if your array does generate more than it draws, you only get the off-peak rate of about $0.05/kWh in crediting towards your bill (despite it generating during peak time). So APS is already making $0.15/kWh off of your panels by reselling your power when they need it, but now they want another $100/mo?


That isn't at all what the article said.
 
2013-07-12 07:48:38 AM

Abner Doon: HotWingAgenda: We're starting to need a Zonie tag. It's like Florida with less hot chicks and more boring food.

?  Food here in Phoenix is actually quite good and varied, not sure where you're getting that.  There's good Mexican of course, lots of very quality Thai places for some reason, a few random African countries, most of Asia represented in good restaurants.  I can't think of any kind of food that doesn't have at least one good restaurant here.  You can even get very good buffalo wings.


Amy's Baking Company
 
2013-07-12 07:54:39 AM

Satanic_Hamster: Install a maintenance charge.  That everyone has to pay, regardless of use.


How much would you like to bet that maintenance charge is already on the bill?
 
2013-07-12 07:56:52 AM

TheBigJerk: Lady J: Bontesla:
I live in Georgia. My power bill is about 200 in the summer. I own a small 1390 sqft ranch home.

Every time my contract is up, I shop for the most competitive rates. I think I've switched companies every year... But I have the luxury of choice.

I don't know what a ranch home is, but you describe that as small. i can't remember the exact dimensions of my place but I'd say yours is double the size of mine.

i think in general property is a lot bigger in the US and that's part of the difference in power spend

Partly.  Also America's grid has a lot of inefficiencies due to all the piecemeal ways it was developed.  It is a LOT hotter here.  A lot of our architecture is designed to be inefficient (bad window placement, poor heat management in the kitchen, poor lighting design/placement).  We have greedy energy companies.  NIMBYs refuse to allow sensible power construction, the giant anti-green movement.  It goes on and on.

My power bill ranges from 3 to 5 times yours (assuming average currency exchange) I'm in 1007 square feet.  Honestly I think the biggest waste continues to be the over-sized TV though (wasn't my idea or my purchase) which sucks down power and then generates a lot of heat that has to be cooled down.

I suspect the UK is "so super-expensive" because if you're a foreigner or even a local who has spent time living abroad you're probably living in London or one of the other major cities.  Poketown, USA to New York City is a difference of 300-600% cost-of-living and I'm betting it's the same if the international traveler who talks about your country being "sooo expensive" never leaves the most expensive part of the country,

If they even "live" there at all, a hotel is a lot more expensive than an apartment, but I know which one I'll be using when I'm a tourist.


Agreed. I live in an Atlanta suburb (Woodbury from TWD). I have an acre lot but the house is incredibly small. The cost of living is much higher than many other areas.

I just returned from a trip to Ohio. My cousin purchased a new home on a teacher's salary. It's 2.5 times the size of my home and is newer than my home but our house payments are. I pay a price for my area.
 
2013-07-12 07:59:04 AM

Lady J: I dont think you mean 26.6. it's been high twenties all week this week.


Meanwhile in Phoenix it'll be 37-43 deg C all week (and summer).

Lady J: I don't know what a ranch home is, but you describe that as small. i can't remember the exact dimensions of my place but I'd say yours is double the size of mine.

i think in general property is a lot bigger in the US and that's part of the difference in power spend


A ranch home is a single level/floor/story home. IMHO a small home here in the US is in the 800-1,000 sq-ft range. Medium is around 1,000-1,600. Large is above that. For others 800-1,600 is small, 1,600-3,000 is medium, and large is above that.

My largest apartment was 1,100 sq-ft + 1 car garage and my current home is 1,300 sq-ft.

So, our homes (outside of places like NYC and LA) are larger plus most of what BigJerk said.
 
2013-07-12 07:59:33 AM

Abner Doon: HotWingAgenda: We're starting to need a Zonie tag. It's like Florida with less hot chicks and more boring food.

?  Food here in Phoenix is actually quite good and varied, not sure where you're getting that.  There's good Mexican of course, lots of very quality Thai places for some reason, a few random African countries, most of Asia represented in good restaurants.  I can't think of any kind of food that doesn't have at least one good restaurant here.  You can even get very good buffalo wings.


And the waitresses in Phoenix are hot in a MILF-y sort of way:

killerbunnies.com

/I'd kiss her grits.
 
2013-07-12 08:00:36 AM
Rent-seeking behavior.
 
2013-07-12 08:01:26 AM
well this is pleasant

no one calling each other douchenozzles or asserting that britland/yankland sucks

how much is a beer in a bar? pint of milk? loaf of bread? short local bus ride?
 
2013-07-12 08:12:11 AM
Yeah, I used to like The Electric Company back in the '70s. The new, 2013 version of The Electric Company sucks.

superradnow.files.wordpress.com
 
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