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(BBC-US)   Gen Xers ... the forgotten generation at work   (bbc.com) divider line 286
    More: Interesting, Gen Xers, Generation X, Pew Charitable Trusts, University of Guelph, middle management, acquiescence, latchkey kid, disaffection  
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17927 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jul 2013 at 5:08 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-12 10:16:24 AM

WhippingBoy: Girion47: My dad was a marine Vietnam vet with severe PTSD and 2 purple hearts.

Please tell me how he wasn't a taskmaster and my "buddy"

You: "You give me what I want, or I'll make the chopper noises again, dad!"
Dad: "No... no!!! Anything but that... of course you can have what you want... we're still buddies, right?"


More like

Dad:  You follow me around and pick up any speck of dirt I point out on the carpet or I'll throw more dishes at you or throw you down the steps again.
Me:  ......ok sir.
 
2013-07-12 10:17:46 AM

unlikely: These threads are almost as predictable as bicycle threads.

Boomer: Those gen X whiners just need to work harder.
Gen Xer: Whatever, gramps. How 'bout you retire?
Millennial: We can't even GET jobs!
Boomer: Check back with me when you work as hard as WE did.
Everyone: Whatever, Gramps.

Someone posts a picture of the "Worked a summer job/bought a new car" "Quit a job/got a new one" shoops.

Yay.


Generation Jones:  You people are all idiots.
 
2013-07-12 10:19:15 AM

verbaltoxin: All the cultural touchstones marked with Gen. X and the millenials are the same thing, because the boomers were around during all of it. They didn't disappear for 30 years while Kurt Cobain and the internet happened. They watched all that sh*t go down too.


Fair enough, but a person's age at the time said sh*t goes down is still important. GenXers & Millenials were young when personal computers/the internet/social networking took shape, and are more comfortable using them. I know a few Baby Boomers who also have good computer/tech skills, but the majority are still asking me how to copy/paste/print from Excel.

I used to laugh at this...until I decided to go back to school recently. At age 42, I'm suddenly realizing my mind is not so much a sponge as a sieve now. :~( It sucks, and learning new skills takes a lot more effort. I'm committed to do it, but am beginning to see how older people - when faced with learning something new - could easily say 'f*ck it' out of laziness.

We should accept that the most likely cause of all this sh*t is powerful people sucking up all the resources, and pissing on the middle class and poor, while we are told to fight over the scraps.

Ultimately, you're right. What's happening now is not necessarily Baby Boomers vs. Everyone Else: it's the usual Haves vs. Have-Nots. Plenty of Baby Boomers (like my parents) are getting just as screwed as the rest of us.
 
2013-07-12 10:20:46 AM

Graffito: Persnickety: Um, yeah.  The problem with taking on really hard assignments is that oftentimes you can't get it done according to management's ridiculous timeline.  Despite their doom and gloom attitude, most tech people consistently underestimate how long it will take to do something, especially if they are doing it themselves.  I call it The Star Trek Syndrome.  No matter what Capt. Kirk needed, Scotty was always always able to pull it off in time and save the day.  He'd grumble and complain, but he'd get it done.  Geordi only added to this fictional ability of every time pulling the rabbit out of the hat just in the nick of time.  The real world is rarely like Star Trek and all too often "hero engineers" fail to live up to the hype.  After a few rounds of this, nobody believes you anymore.

Um No.  Decent management realizes when you are taking on an assignment that involves new skills and allows for extra time and inevitable missteps.  They are absorbing the cost of your on-the-job training in the hopes that it will payoff with a more capable employee.  Secondly, I've never seen anyone in management take the engineers estimates at face value.


Where do you work that management is so wise?  Engineering is a cost center and the goal is always to push down and reduce those costs.  If you are a manager and your boss (who has little to no tech experience) says all he can give you is a budget of X and your team of technical workers say they can do it for X, you'll be seen as a budget padder if you insist on 1.5X, even if you know better.  You may be right, but what does that matter?  The smarter move is to take the budget of X, let it overrun and then blame your team and/or subtly imply that your boss doesn't know what he's doing.
 
2013-07-12 10:20:59 AM

Cubansaltyballs: In my experience, a lot of Baby Boomers have jobs they should not have and only have them because some other Boomer promoted them. When they see a Gen Xer, they become afraid that some 35 year-old will show the world how incompetent they are.

It's protectionism. The faster this generation dies, the better off we'll all be.


Problem with some of that is family owned companies. You might have (speaking from some experiences) a kid of an ancient boomer that uses the business as their own piggy bank at the behest of the employees. Then when things turn south do they hire more competent or driven employees? Nah, they cash out and drive what's left into bankruptcy or just close shop or sell out, cuz dad is dead and he can't do shiat about his kids bad decisions anymore. Everybody loses, not just the gen Xers that could have kept the ship afloat.
 
2013-07-12 10:29:02 AM

Darke: steerforth: Darke: Phinn: snowshovel: Anyway....I'd probably give the millenials the internet (which I can argue that Generation X may get)...but the millenials more importantly get: always on social connections.

Late Boomers built personal computers and the web software itself, Gen-X built the post-web Internet and blogging, but the Millenials have built the latest round of social media and a lot of apps.

What's the deal with the Gen-Y/Millenial constant social media thing, anyway?  Before the web, Gen-Xers (like me) were the kind of people to keep a Post Office box instead of getting mail at home.  (It helps keep Sallie Mae off our backs.)  The last thing we'd do is put our entire lives online.

I just want to say that Gen Y is NOT the same as Millenials.  Unlike the younguns, I CAN hold a face-to-face conversation, ignore facebook, and hold a steady job.

/apparently I'm invisible to whomever writes these stupid articles.

Yes they are. Some retard working in advertising just decided to change the name.

>.< goddammitsomuch.  I should probably actually wiki it before i type.  I stand corrected.

/doesn't mean I have to like it.  I might be technically a millennial (85), but I have nothing in common with them.


No one on the planet wants to be characterised by their supposed "generation", and fair enough. It is useful for demographers, as Ishkur has eloquently pointed out, but apart from that it means fark all except as an excuse to biatch about others and as a tool for marketers.

Then again, I rang my mother the other day to say happy 64th birthday, and she not only joked about the Beatles song but told me she and her partner had been over to see a similarly aged couple that afternoon, and were subsequently joined by another couple. Apparently they all sat around discussing whether an Australian, British, New Zealand or Canadian pension was more lucrative and which to apply for, all the while smoking doobies, the raw ingredients of which one couple currently propagates, tends and sells to such an extent that they don't even need a pension, even though they are entitled to one.  That is so boomer it's farking BOOMER.
 
2013-07-12 10:30:07 AM

steerforth: Darke: steerforth: Darke: Phinn: snowshovel: Anyway....I'd probably give the millenials the internet (which I can argue that Generation X may get)...but the millenials more importantly get: always on social connections.

Late Boomers built personal computers and the web software itself, Gen-X built the post-web Internet and blogging, but the Millenials have built the latest round of social media and a lot of apps.

What's the deal with the Gen-Y/Millenial constant social media thing, anyway?  Before the web, Gen-Xers (like me) were the kind of people to keep a Post Office box instead of getting mail at home.  (It helps keep Sallie Mae off our backs.)  The last thing we'd do is put our entire lives online.

I just want to say that Gen Y is NOT the same as Millenials.  Unlike the younguns, I CAN hold a face-to-face conversation, ignore facebook, and hold a steady job.

/apparently I'm invisible to whomever writes these stupid articles.

Yes they are. Some retard working in advertising just decided to change the name.

>.< goddammitsomuch.  I should probably actually wiki it before i type.  I stand corrected.

/doesn't mean I have to like it.  I might be technically a millennial (85), but I have nothing in common with them.

No one on the planet wants to be characterised by their supposed "generation", and fair enough. It is useful for demographers, as Ishkur has eloquently pointed out, but apart from that it means fark all except as an excuse to biatch about others and as a tool for marketers.

Then again, I rang my mother the other day to say happy 64th birthday, and she not only joked about the Beatles song but told me she and her partner had been over to see a similarly aged couple that afternoon, and were subsequently joined by another couple. Apparently they all sat around discussing whether an Australian, British, New Zealand or Canadian pension was more lucrative and which to apply for, all the while smoking doobies, the raw ingredients of which one coupl ...


meanwhile they pushed D.A.R.E. down your throat as you were growing up?
 
2013-07-12 10:37:03 AM

Girion47: WhippingBoy: Girion47: My dad was a marine Vietnam vet with severe PTSD and 2 purple hearts.

Please tell me how he wasn't a taskmaster and my "buddy"

You: "You give me what I want, or I'll make the chopper noises again, dad!"
Dad: "No... no!!! Anything but that... of course you can have what you want... we're still buddies, right?"

More like

Dad:  You follow me around and pick up any speck of dirt I point out on the carpet or I'll throw more dishes at you or throw you down the steps again.
Me:  ......ok sir.


I got the same thing without that level of violence.  Mostly a lot of yelling and some mild form of violence.  He is a Vietnam era Army vet., didn't see combat.  It must have something to do with the training.  A few times I did get:
Dad: Did you take care of what I asked you to do?
Me: What?
then yelling, because he had told me to do something while I slept and I was suppose to remember to do it.  Somehow writing a note was too much for him.  When he wasn't yelling, it was lets go play a sport.

/only good moment was when my lil bro (9 yrs my jr) called me spoiled, dad ripped him good.
//I was too busy laughing at my bro to be mad.
 
2013-07-12 10:39:12 AM
re: 9/11 being Millenial's Cobain/Lennon. Nah, that wasn't generational. When Lennon died, it didn't effect the Boomer's parents. Ditto Cobain/Xers parents.

My guess is that generational lines have as much to do with your parents as when you're born. I was the eldest child of War Babies and am very GenX in (bad) attitude. Best bud was born a year later, but was the youngest child of Depression kids and he's very Boomer.
 
2013-07-12 10:41:40 AM

Ishkur: What are you talking about? The video arcade was the coolest place to be in the 80s and lots of girls were there. Moreover, it was something that existed just for Xers because it died out in the 90s when everyone got home consoles. For a brief period, it was THE hangout if you were underage.


So true.

I worked at an arcade (for free tokens) in high school. Lots of people hung out there.

Even in college in the 80s my gf and I would hit the arcade some nights.

Sitting home alone playing a game seems less fun to me because of my experience in the "arcades are a thing" decade.
 
2013-07-12 10:43:28 AM

THE GREAT NAME: Bollocks to the BBC and their "this content is not for domestic viewing" crap. Enjoy my license fee payments you assholes.


You're a boot-strappy conservative. Why don't you move somewhere better?
 
2013-07-12 10:44:01 AM

Girion47: steerforth:

No one on the planet wants to be characterised by their supposed "generation", and fair enough. It is useful for demographers, as Ishkur has eloquently pointed out, but apart from that it means fark all except as an excuse to biatch about others and as a tool for marketers.

Then again, I rang my mother the other day to say happy 64th birthday, and she not only joked about the Beatles song but told me she and her partner had been over to see a similarly aged couple that afternoon, and were subsequently joined by another couple. Apparently they all sat around discussing whether an Australian, British, New Zealand or Canadian pension was more lucrative and which to apply for, all the while smoking doobies, the raw ingredients of whi ...


meanwhile they pushed D.A.R.E. down your throat as you were growing up?

D.A.R.E? Dare to be different? Truth or dare?
 
2013-07-12 10:51:23 AM

Franko: HO-LEE-CRAP, I'm not alone.

13 years of programming skills: only $45k jobs out there
project management certification: everyone wants at least 10 yrs experience.

I'm seriously on the verge of dropping everything and just cleaning houses for a living.


You think cleaning houses will net you more than $45K a year w/ benefits?
 
2013-07-12 10:51:24 AM

Persnickety: Graffito: Persnickety: Um, yeah.  The problem with taking on really hard assignments is that oftentimes you can't get it done according to management's ridiculous timeline.  Despite their doom and gloom attitude, most tech people consistently underestimate how long it will take to do something, especially if they are doing it themselves.  I call it The Star Trek Syndrome.  No matter what Capt. Kirk needed, Scotty was always always able to pull it off in time and save the day.  He'd grumble and complain, but he'd get it done.  Geordi only added to this fictional ability of every time pulling the rabbit out of the hat just in the nick of time.  The real world is rarely like Star Trek and all too often "hero engineers" fail to live up to the hype.  After a few rounds of this, nobody believes you anymore.

Um No.  Decent management realizes when you are taking on an assignment that involves new skills and allows for extra time and inevitable missteps.  They are absorbing the cost of your on-the-job training in the hopes that it will payoff with a more capable employee.  Secondly, I've never seen anyone in management take the engineers estimates at face value.

Where do you work that management is so wise?  Engineering is a cost center and the goal is always to push down and reduce those costs.  If you are a manager and your boss (who has little to no tech experience) says all he can give you is a budget of X and your team of technical workers say they can do it for X, you'll be seen as a budget padder if you insist on 1.5X, even if you know better.  You may be right, but what does that matter?  The smarter move is to take the budget of X, let it overrun and then blame your team and/or subtly imply that your boss doesn't know what he's doing.


I work for a small software company in northeast Ohio.  Management here makes lots of mistakes as do we all.
What surprises me is people in this thread who discount the cost to the employer of employee mistakes.  I am generally grateful for the opportunity to take on more complex assignments.  I know that if we don't at least break even it could mean layoffs so while I'm thrashing around trying to figure out how to make something work the last thing on my mind is how much I am getting paid.  If we make a profit, I'll be remembered at bonus time.
 
2013-07-12 10:53:04 AM

Ishkur: Do you have any siblings? ...how old are they? ....how old were your parents when they had you? Were they Boomers?

One of the more common misconceptions about Xers is that they were the children of the Boomers. This is wrong -- well, some might be children of Boomer teenage pregnancies or early adults, but this wasn't common; the vast majority of Boomers held off having children until their 30s. Some Xers are younger siblings of Boomers, but most are actually late children of "war babies" (people born from 1939-1945).

Xers were not as large or as numerous as the Boomers so they could not affect society with their social inertia like the Boomers could. They could never lead trends, they could only follow them. They were often forgotten and left out in the cold, too small to be attractive to market forces or amass great social change. They were the first generation of the dual income family ethic. They were the latchkey kids forced to raise themselves because both parents always worked. Factor these altogether: Forgotten by the world because they don't matter, forgotten by the industry of society because they're a market minority, forgotten at home because no one's ever around..... and you have the surly, brooding angst canonized in grunge music, John Hughes movies and mcjobs. This crippling worldview germinates apathy and disillusionment. No identity, no purpose, no future, no label. They are X.

The Millenials are generally considered to be born between 82-99 with a peak year of 1990. They are the TRUE children of the Boomers. They are a much larger, much fatter demographic than the Xers, so their affect on social change is a lot more evocative. But they are not as large or as numerous as the Boomers. The problem with large population groups is they tend to be more full of themselves (because they have a ready supply of unconditional peer-affirmation)


Your assumption that "the vast majority of boomers held off having children until their 30s" is incorrect and led you to the incorrect conclusion that the millennials are the "true children of the boomers."   Mother's average age at first birth was around 21 all through the early 1970s and was still only 24 by the end of the 1980s.  (Even average age at 4th birth was under 30 until the mid-1990s.)    The boomers were born 1946-64, and they were having their kids in their early to mid 20s, so most boomer kids were being born in the early 1960s through the mid 1980s, which is where GenX squarely falls.  Most GenXers are going to have baby boomer parents and some memory of being a kid in the 1980s.    Yes, some boomers delayed childbearing so long that their kids were born too late to be GenX. But, even a late boomer  born in 1964 that gave birth at age 33 in 1997 would have their baby surrounded in the nursery with babies born to 20-27 year old GenX parents.    One reason the millennials are interesting is that they include an unprecedented proportion of kids born to established (if not affluent) and highly educated older parents.  While not a majority, they were large enough in number not to be weird for having "old" parents, and were able to use their advantages to overshadow their peers.
 
2013-07-12 10:53:36 AM

steerforth: Girion47: steerforth:

No one on the planet wants to be characterised by their supposed "generation", and fair enough. It is useful for demographers, as Ishkur has eloquently pointed out, but apart from that it means fark all except as an excuse to biatch about others and as a tool for marketers.

Then again, I rang my mother the other day to say happy 64th birthday, and she not only joked about the Beatles song but told me she and her partner had been over to see a similarly aged couple that afternoon, and were subsequently joined by another couple. Apparently they all sat around discussing whether an Australian, British, New Zealand or Canadian pension was more lucrative and which to apply for, all the while smoking doobies, the raw ingredients of whi ...

meanwhile they pushed D.A.R.E. down your throat as you were growing up?

D.A.R.E? Dare to be different? Truth or dare?


Drug Abuse Resistance Education.

Anti-drug program, was very popular in the US in the '80's and '90's, where a police officer comes into schools and lectures students on the evils of illegal drugs, usually giving in-depth explanations of street names, appearance, and details of drugs, along with extremely stern warnings to never use them and lots of worst-case scenarios of everything that will go wrong if you ever touch marijuana (or god-forbid, anything harder than that) even once.
 
2013-07-12 10:54:10 AM

OldManDownDRoad: Boss: "We need someone to fire because I want to hire a crony and we don't have the budget for another person. I know, that suck-up who cleaned the toilet. Fire his ass."

/seen it several times in my working life


So your hypothesis is that bosses, in general, get rid of the most compliant and helpful people first?!?!?

I think I see your problem.
 
2013-07-12 10:56:51 AM

Silverstaff: steerforth: Girion47: steerforth:

No one on the planet wants to be characterised by their supposed "generation", and fair enough. It is useful for demographers, as Ishkur has eloquently pointed out, but apart from that it means fark all except as an excuse to biatch about others and as a tool for marketers.

Then again, I rang my mother the other day to say happy 64th birthday, and she not only joked about the Beatles song but told me she and her partner had been over to see a similarly aged couple that afternoon, and were subsequently joined by another couple. Apparently they all sat around discussing whether an Australian, British, New Zealand or Canadian pension was more lucrative and which to apply for, all the while smoking doobies, the raw ingredients of whi ...

meanwhile they pushed D.A.R.E. down your throat as you were growing up?

D.A.R.E? Dare to be different? Truth or dare?

Drug Abuse Resistance Education.

Anti-drug program, was very popular in the US in the '80's and '90's, where a police officer comes into schools and lectures students on the evils of illegal drugs, usually giving in-depth explanations of street names, appearance, and details of drugs, along with extremely stern warnings to never use them and lots of worst-case scenarios of everything that will go wrong if you ever touch marijuana (or god-forbid, anything harder than that) even once.


Gotcha. No, as far as I can tell D.A.R.E seems to be a purely American piece of bullshiat. My parents just told me not to get caught.
 
2013-07-12 10:57:40 AM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: meanmutton: Cubansaltyballs: In my experience, a lot of Baby Boomers have jobs they should not have and only have them because some other Boomer promoted them. When they see a Gen Xer, they become afraid that some 35 year-old will show the world how incompetent they are.

It's protectionism. The faster this generation dies, the better off we'll all be.

Speaking as a 35-year-old -- don't pretend that we're any less incompetent.

Also, when they were 35, it's not like they weren't in the same positions you are in right now.

When the Boomers were 35, they had little to no student debt, and had likely spent over a decade working for the same company that paid enough so that one breadwinner could raise a nice middle class family out in the suburbs. The generation before them handed them everything, but it was the Boomers who pulled up the ladder behind them.


Hey, I had student debt. I took out a loan to go skiing at Sun Valley for a week.
 
2013-07-12 10:58:05 AM

SpectroBoy: Franko: HO-LEE-CRAP, I'm not alone.

13 years of programming skills: only $45k jobs out there
project management certification: everyone wants at least 10 yrs experience.

I'm seriously on the verge of dropping everything and just cleaning houses for a living.

You think cleaning houses will net you more than $45K a year w/ benefits?


A freind of mine is running a maid service and hitting similar numbers. Of course, she's RUNNING it.
 
2013-07-12 11:01:47 AM

steerforth: Girion47: steerforth:

No one on the planet wants to be characterised by their supposed "generation", and fair enough. It is useful for demographers, as Ishkur has eloquently pointed out, but apart from that it means fark all except as an excuse to biatch about others and as a tool for marketers.

Then again, I rang my mother the other day to say happy 64th birthday, and she not only joked about the Beatles song but told me she and her partner had been over to see a similarly aged couple that afternoon, and were subsequently joined by another couple. Apparently they all sat around discussing whether an Australian, British, New Zealand or Canadian pension was more lucrative and which to apply for, all the while smoking doobies, the raw ingredients of whi ...

meanwhile they pushed D.A.R.E. down your throat as you were growing up?

D.A.R.E? Dare to be different? Truth or dare?


Dare to be stupid
 
2013-07-12 11:08:22 AM
You have a hyphenated name, you're going places!
 
2013-07-12 11:09:15 AM

Charlie Freak: Biggest difference I've seen between Xers and millennials at work is that millennials wait to be told and have to be told to do anything. They don't go figure out how to do things very well - about zero creativity and no autodidaction. It's even worse for my kids generation. Holy shiat. Then they expect a cookie any time they come up with something that's been done the same way for 30 years.


THIS. Holy balls, it's at the point where these people (now approaching 30, FFS) can't take a shiat without explicit approval of their plan.
 
2013-07-12 11:09:16 AM

GRCooper: re: 9/11 being Millenial's Cobain/Lennon. Nah, that wasn't generational. When Lennon died, it didn't effect the Boomer's parents. Ditto Cobain/Xers parents.

My guess is that generational lines have as much to do with your parents as when you're born. I was the eldest child of War Babies and am very GenX in (bad) attitude. Best bud was born a year later, but was the youngest child of Depression kids and he's very Boomer.


Wow, that would throw my youngest cousins way off the level with their peers.  My mom's next to youngest brother waited till he was 40 before having twins, and they are younger than my kids.  That would put them off by a whole generation.  I do see your point since I was born in '76 and lil bro was born in '85, and he struggles to fit in with peers whose parents were born in the late 60's to early 70's.  Our parents were born in '48 and '54.
 
2013-07-12 11:12:33 AM

WhippingBoy: Franko: HO-LEE-CRAP, I'm not alone.

13 years of programming skills: only $45k jobs out there
project management certification: everyone wants at least 10 yrs experience.

I'm seriously on the verge of dropping everything and just cleaning houses for a living.

No one makes big bucks because they have "programming skills". My eight year old son has "programming skills". You want to get ahead at work? Whenever some issue, problem, or otherwise unpleasant situation comes up, just say "I'll do it!"

Observe:

Boss: "We need someone to fly to Korea tomorrow (Dec 23) and debug a problem one of our customers is having"
You: "I'll do it!"

Boss: "The developer who wrote this application just quit, and we need someone to take responsibility for his garbled spaghetti code"
You: "I'll do it!"

Boss: "Someone clogged the office toilet with a toxic dump and it needs to be unclogged"
You: "I'll do it!"

That's it. That's all you need to do.


See in a meritocracy, that would work. In the real world, your boss ignores you and takes credit for your hard work. When he finally retires, the big bosses hire from the outside, since for years all your boss has said about you is how lazy you are and how he's always having to clean up your messes.
 
2013-07-12 11:13:11 AM
Gen Xers are Millenials who work to keep the world running, while neither receiving nor expecting any reward except continued survival.

Millenials are Gen Xers who decided that working is a sucker's game, when you can instead manipulate and attention whore your way through life, and blame the workers whose rewards they steal for letting them be stolen.
 
2013-07-12 11:17:26 AM

Silverstaff: Anti-drug program, was very popular in the US in the '80's and '90's, where a police officer comes into schools and lectures students on the evils of illegal drugs, usually giving in-depth explanations of street names, appearance, and details of drugs, along with extremely stern warnings to never use them and lots of worst-case scenarios of everything that will go wrong if you ever touch marijuana (or god-forbid, anything harder than that) even once.


The DARE program has been proven to be a disaster. Now that they have looked at the results years later DARE kids are MORE likely to use drugs.

It's almost like a cop lying to you and saying stupid shiat to you at an early age reduces your respect for the law.
 
2013-07-12 11:19:53 AM

Private_Citizen: See in a meritocracy, that would work. In the real world, your boss ignores you and takes credit for your hard work. When he finally retires, the big bosses hire from the outside, since for years all your boss has said about you is how lazy you are and how he's always having to clean up your messes.


So are you saying your boss purposely went out of his way to hurt the most cooperative and helpful employee or that he did that to all his reports?

If the former, he is an exception. Most bosses know to keep their most helpful people around even if they plan on stealing the credit.

If the latter, no harm. Your peers are no better off.

/ Sounds more like you have crafted an excuse not to work too hard to me.
 
2013-07-12 11:21:37 AM

Private_Citizen: WhippingBoy: Franko: HO-LEE-CRAP, I'm not alone.

13 years of programming skills: only $45k jobs out there
project management certification: everyone wants at least 10 yrs experience.

I'm seriously on the verge of dropping everything and just cleaning houses for a living.

No one makes big bucks because they have "programming skills". My eight year old son has "programming skills". You want to get ahead at work? Whenever some issue, problem, or otherwise unpleasant situation comes up, just say "I'll do it!"

Observe:

Boss: "We need someone to fly to Korea tomorrow (Dec 23) and debug a problem one of our customers is having"
You: "I'll do it!"

Boss: "The developer who wrote this application just quit, and we need someone to take responsibility for his garbled spaghetti code"
You: "I'll do it!"

Boss: "Someone clogged the office toilet with a toxic dump and it needs to be unclogged"
You: "I'll do it!"

That's it. That's all you need to do.

See in a meritocracy, that would work. In the real world, your boss ignores you and takes credit for your hard work. When he finally retires, the big bosses hire from the outside, since for years all your boss has said about you is how lazy you are and how he's always having to clean up your messes.


This.
And when the big boss hires the replacement boss, he hires the young up and coming who starts out near your pay so he doesn't have to give you a raise.  Which means for the next few years, you have to train him to catch up.  Behind your back he rattles on about your 'bad attitude' and looks to fire you in spite of your 'bank of knowledge'.

Did I miss anything?
 
2013-07-12 11:24:59 AM

SpectroBoy: Private_Citizen: See in a meritocracy, that would work. In the real world, your boss ignores you and takes credit for your hard work. When he finally retires, the big bosses hire from the outside, since for years all your boss has said about you is how lazy you are and how he's always having to clean up your messes.

So are you saying your boss purposely went out of his way to hurt the most cooperative and helpful employee or that he did that to all his reports?

If the former, he is an exception. Most bosses know to keep their most helpful people around even if they plan on stealing the credit.

If the latter, no harm. Your peers are no better off.

/ Sounds more like you have crafted an excuse not to work too hard to me.


I've seen it time and again. Being the "go to guy" will not get you promoted in todays world. Shameless self promotion on the otherhand....

/let me tell you about the dozen patents I've earned for the company and how much those inventions have contributed to the bottomline.
 
2013-07-12 11:27:19 AM

lack of warmth: Private_Citizen: WhippingBoy: Franko: HO-LEE-CRAP, I'm not alone.

13 years of programming skills: only $45k jobs out there
project management certification: everyone wants at least 10 yrs experience.

I'm seriously on the verge of dropping everything and just cleaning houses for a living.

No one makes big bucks because they have "programming skills". My eight year old son has "programming skills". You want to get ahead at work? Whenever some issue, problem, or otherwise unpleasant situation comes up, just say "I'll do it!"

Observe:

Boss: "We need someone to fly to Korea tomorrow (Dec 23) and debug a problem one of our customers is having"
You: "I'll do it!"

Boss: "The developer who wrote this application just quit, and we need someone to take responsibility for his garbled spaghetti code"
You: "I'll do it!"

Boss: "Someone clogged the office toilet with a toxic dump and it needs to be unclogged"
You: "I'll do it!"

That's it. That's all you need to do.

See in a meritocracy, that would work. In the real world, your boss ignores you and takes credit for your hard work. When he finally retires, the big bosses hire from the outside, since for years all your boss has said about you is how lazy you are and how he's always having to clean up your messes.

This.
And when the big boss hires the replacement boss, he hires the young up and coming who starts out near your pay so he doesn't have to give you a raise.  Which means for the next few years, you have to train him to catch up.  Behind your back he rattles on about your 'bad attitude' and looks to fire you in spite of your 'bank of knowledge'.

Did I miss anything?


Nope. Unlike spectroboy, who completely missed the point, you definitely hit the target.
 
2013-07-12 11:44:08 AM
Graffito: I work for a small software company in northeast Ohio.  Management here makes lots of mistakes as do we all.  What surprises me is people in this thread who discount the cost to the employer of employee mistakes.  I am generally grateful for the opportunity to take on more complex assignments.  I know that if we don't at least break even it could mean layoffs so while I'm thrashing around trying to figure out how to make something work the last thing on my mind is how much I am getting paid.   If we make a profit, I'll be remembered at bonus time.

Yeah, I remember those days fondly.  I work for big corporate America.  There are so many layers of management with overlapping responsibility that nobody can figure out who's really in charge of what.  When things go wrong, there isn't any clear direction where to correctly lay blame.  Likewise, if you take on a next to impossible task and perform brilliantly, no one will notice, or worse, someone else will get the credit.  As just another cog in the wheel, I have very little control over whether the division meets or does not meet its numbers.  I can be laid off tomorrow over something I know nothing about because somebody 3000 miles away screwed something up.  Similarly, we might get donuts or a similar atta-boy because of a major win I had nothing to do with.  They used to give us bonuses back in the day but eventually figured out there's really no need to do that.
 
2013-07-12 11:51:12 AM
I'm GenX. People say we're apathetic but I don't really care.

My not-so-CSB: I watched my father work for a big company that was loyal to him, fostered his growth and development so he could be a greater asset to the corporation, paid a nice pension and extended benefits to his wife when he died. He was loyal to the company and the company was loyal to him. He's part of what I guess you'd call the Greatest Generation.

My baby-boomer sister saw this and got her degree and went to work for the same company. After about 15-20 years they pulled everyone's pension to pay for some CEO's golden parachute, and had the nerve to act surprised when everyone quit, giving them the finger when they left.

I saw what happened to my sister, and it only took one company doing that to me that I realized the only company I need to work for is Torchsong, Inc. (and its subsidiary, Mrs. Torchsong). To be honest, I'm surprised/ashamed I had to have one company do it to me before I realized it. 

I'm GenX, and I've been gainfully employed since leaving college, but make no mistake, my employer. You will get my best work while I'm here*, but I am not loyal to you, your mission statement, or furthering your goals, because deep down I know you feel the same way about me. As long as we both understand and accept this, I think we'll get along great.

*Yes, savor the irony I'm typing this on the job (Hey, we do get breaks, y'know! :) )
 
2013-07-12 11:51:56 AM

Silverstaff: These "generation" distinctions are a little artificial.

I was born in 1978.  A few sources would call me a millennial, but most try to call me Generation X.  The cutoff date is always put somewhere in the late '70's, usually towards 1980.

The thing is, I have little in common with Gen X.  I never knew who Kurt Cobain was at the time, and for quite a while when other kids were talking about Nirvana in school I thought Buddhism was a fad.  I never listened to grunge music, and I was sheltered enough from a lot of pop culture as a kid I didn't have many of the same cultural touchstones of Gen X (aside from watching the fall of communism, the destruction of Challenger, the Gulf War, ect).

On the other hand, whenever I read about Millennials, I read it and think "that's me".  Grew up around the rise of the PC and the internet, had a devil of a time even finding a job when I went into the workforce, part of a generation which was told from childhood that a college education is self-justifying and to just go and you'll be able to pay for those student loans later. . .

. . .but authors and demographers and such keep wanting to call me a Generation X'er because I was born in '78,


I have the same problem. I was born in 1961 so theoretically Im a boomer but my parents are boomers and I was mostly left home to raise myself while they got divorced and "did their thing." I fit much in much better with the Gen Xers. But really I dont have an official generation. John Lennon dying surprised - but did not define me. Couldnt care less about Cobain. Dumbledore? Really?

Anyways yeah. I definitely prefer to work for myself and don't watch TV.  I do play lots of video games with my genx hubby though.
 
2013-07-12 12:12:29 PM
Basically the Boomers have gone to the party, banged all the women, drank all the booze, and smoked all the weed.  We Gen-X'rs are now at the party with used condoms to pick up, bottles and cans to throw away, with not even a roach left in an ashtray to enjoy.  I have seen boomers with union jobs vote to screw everyone after them with pay and benefits, all for a $2500 check from management.  The boomers have allowed corporations to turn the pension they receive into a 401K with some contribution and now the classic 401K with no contribition which is now the new normal.  They came home to mom's apple pie, we came home to no mom or dad until dinner.  My father the boomer went to work at 18.  I went to work at 13.  My millenial son went to work at 17.  I have been working my ass off almost my whole life.  My father has a high school education and is currently on a criuse to Italy and Spain. He retired at 62 because he worked for a European company that actually treats a person like a human being.  On the other hand I will work until I die because I work for a large American company that has cut benefits with no regret.  I also blame boomers for making up the bulk of the conservative tea bagger population that has stalled the progress of the country by their selfishness and disregard for anyone who disagrees with their dated and blatantly racist rhetoric.  They are afraid Obama's gonna take their shiat away from them.  He should.  They have done a poor job of leaving us the way their parents left them.  They have pisssed it away on themselves and I will not shed a tear as they begin to die off.
 
2013-07-12 12:17:32 PM

dready zim: The boomers decided nobody could ever suffer like them so they engineered a world of hurt for their descendents. Gen X was the testbed for pretty mech every failed education policy, work scheme and housing policy and we bore the brunt of them. We have lived in a world of constant change and disruption. We were spawned in a recession and now we are back in familiar ground.

You are all farked.

We have come home.


I like that!

Gen X, as viewed by everybody:
www.newgeography.com

In case you missed it, Gen X is the gap that's been ignored.

We're going to have to suffer Boomers in the workplace a long time, if they ever retire.

www.census.gov
 
2013-07-12 12:31:23 PM

The Irresponsible Captain: dready zim: The boomers decided nobody could ever suffer like them so they engineered a world of hurt for their descendents. Gen X was the testbed for pretty mech every failed education policy, work scheme and housing policy and we bore the brunt of them. We have lived in a world of constant change and disruption. We were spawned in a recession and now we are back in familiar ground.

You are all farked.

We have come home.

I like that!

Gen X, as viewed by everybody:
[www.newgeography.com image 453x344]

In case you missed it, Gen X is the gap that's been ignored.

We're going to have to suffer Boomers in the workplace a long time, if they ever retire.

[www.census.gov image 585x438]


Fark man. Apparently being born in 1981 qualifies me with the shiatheads of the Millenial Generation.  And that sickens me. My grandfather instilled values in me of "if you work hard, you reap that reward. But cautiously watch the work." Meaning, don't blindly work hard, work towards a goal and make sure you communicate with the people above you to make that goal known.

I currently work as a retail manager. And store manager is my first and foremost job. But I'm actively pursuing other work within the company in my excess time. And it's paying off in boatloads as my development is being accelerated by two other managers above me who are jockeying for which path of advancement for me to go down.

Comparatively to my colleagues of the same generation, I have to agree with some peoples sentiments that they need a cookie for putting on the right color pants for work. I just have to SMH at the lack of enthusiasm these people have and they're distinct lack of drive. Maybe it's just the way I was raised, I dunno.
 
2013-07-12 12:41:32 PM

smackdab: Basically the Boomers have gone to the party, banged all the women, drank all the booze, and smoked all the weed.  We Gen-X'rs are now at the party with used condoms to pick up, bottles and cans to throw away, with not even a roach left in an ashtray to enjoy.  I have seen boomers with union jobs vote to screw everyone after them with pay and benefits, all for a $2500 check from management.  The boomers have allowed corporations to turn the pension they receive into a 401K with some contribution and now the classic 401K with no contribition which is now the new normal.  They came home to mom's apple pie, we came home to no mom or dad until dinner.  My father the boomer went to work at 18.  I went to work at 13.  My millenial son went to work at 17.  I have been working my ass off almost my whole life.  My father has a high school education and is currently on a criuse to Italy and Spain. He retired at 62 because he worked for a European company that actually treats a person like a human being.  On the other hand I will work until I die because I work for a large American company that has cut benefits with no regret.  I also blame boomers for making up the bulk of the conservative tea bagger population that has stalled the progress of the country by their selfishness and disregard for anyone who disagrees with their dated and blatantly racist rhetoric.  They are afraid Obama's gonna take their shiat away from them.  He should.  They have done a poor job of leaving us the way their parents left them.  They have pisssed it away on themselves and I will not shed a tear as they begin to die off.


Woo hoo, hear! hear!

The Boomers are/were a resource suck that are the ultimate in selfishness and apathy. The care about no one but themselves.

You'd think they would have grown out of it. I mean, really, they're 'adults' now.
 
2013-07-12 12:47:40 PM

Franko: HO-LEE-CRAP, I'm not alone.

13 years of programming skills: only $45k jobs out there
project management certification: everyone wants at least 10 yrs experience.

I'm seriously on the verge of dropping everything and just cleaning houses for a living.



Something is missing from your story. 13 years of experience programming should yield 60-70k minimum, whether you're talking compiled applications, client-side programming, or server-side web applications. Even if you're talking about a market saturated by boot-camp graduates with no real-world experience like H1B MCSEs.

When you say programming skills, do you mean "doing Internet, like making webpages" or actual programming? What market are you looking in? Maybe your resume could do with some polishing, especially if you've got PMP. Perhaps you should consider a QA Analyst track to get in the door if you're a programmer with PMP certification.
 
2013-07-12 12:59:10 PM

jayphat: The Irresponsible Captain: dready zim: The boomers decided nobody could ever suffer like them so they engineered a world of hurt for their descendents. Gen X was the testbed for pretty mech every failed education policy, work scheme and housing policy and we bore the brunt of them. We have lived in a world of constant change and disruption. We were spawned in a recession and now we are back in familiar ground.

You are all farked.

We have come home.

I like that!

Gen X, as viewed by everybody:
[www.newgeography.com image 453x344]

In case you missed it, Gen X is the gap that's been ignored.

We're going to have to suffer Boomers in the workplace a long time, if they ever retire.

[www.census.gov image 585x438]

Fark man. Apparently being born in 1981 qualifies me with the shiatheads of the Millenial Generation.  And that sickens me. My grandfather instilled values in me of "if you work hard, you reap that reward. But cautiously watch the work." Meaning, don't blindly work hard, work towards a goal and make sure you communicate with the people above you to make that goal known.

I currently work as a retail manager. And store manager is my first and foremost job. But I'm actively pursuing other work within the company in my excess time. And it's paying off in boatloads as my development is being accelerated by two other managers above me who are jockeying for which path of advancement for me to go down.

Comparatively to my colleagues of the same generation, I have to agree with some peoples sentiments that they need a cookie for putting on the right color pants for work. I just have to SMH at the lack of enthusiasm these people have and they're distinct lack of drive. Maybe it's just the way I was raised, I dunno.


Why work hard for a job that doesn't matter(retail)?

Seriously, the company views you as a number, you can be cut easily, you receive all the customer abuse, your tasks are menial and boring, and excelling does jack shiat for you or the company.

Not to mention the pay is insultingly low.
 
2013-07-12 01:12:02 PM

jayphat: The Irresponsible Captain: dready zim: The boomers decided nobody could ever suffer like them so they engineered a world of hurt for their descendents. Gen X was the testbed for pretty mech every failed education policy, work scheme and housing policy and we bore the brunt of them. We have lived in a world of constant change and disruption. We were spawned in a recession and now we are back in familiar ground.

You are all farked.

We have come home.

I like that!

Gen X, as viewed by everybody:
[www.newgeography.com image 453x344]

In case you missed it, Gen X is the gap that's been ignored.

We're going to have to suffer Boomers in the workplace a long time, if they ever retire.

[www.census.gov image 585x438]

Fark man. Apparently being born in 1981 qualifies me with the shiatheads of the Millenial Generation.  And that sickens me. My grandfather instilled values in me of "if you work hard, you reap that reward. But cautiously watch the work." Meaning, don't blindly work hard, work towards a goal and make sure you communicate with the people above you to make that goal known.

I currently work as a retail manager. And store manager is my first and foremost job. But I'm actively pursuing other work within the company in my excess time. And it's paying off in boatloads as my development is being accelerated by two other managers above me who are jockeying for which path of advancement for me to go down.

Comparatively to my colleagues of the same generation, I have to agree with some peoples sentiments that they need a cookie for putting on the right color pants for work. I just have to SMH at the lack of enthusiasm these people have and they're distinct lack of drive. Maybe it's just the way I was raised, I dunno.



1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-07-12 01:36:15 PM
Someone needs to start killing off Baby Boomers.
 
2013-07-12 01:39:04 PM

furiousidiot: Someone needs to start killing off Baby Boomers.


What the hell do you think Obama created the Death Panels for?
 
2013-07-12 01:46:21 PM

furiousidiot: Someone needs to start killing off Baby Boomers.


Dude, when you start, remember I said upthread that "We suck."

/should get credit for that
 
2013-07-12 01:47:22 PM
I suppose that that I am a Millenial, I was born in 86.

The more I think about my office experiences with the older crowds, the more I've felt that the X'ers were far less friendly/ socialable, but knew what to do in most every situation, and direct accordingly. The boomers are all incredibly nice but hold about as much usefulness as breast-plate nipples, but thye happen to be in charge.

Most of the 65+ year olds still working seem like they're just chasing the dragon man, and they aint ever gonna catch it. And the more I hang out in the office environment, the more I resent them and the just awful descisions/ "pulling up the ladder" that they commit. Very nasty business, really. But this is Fark, and we're all just shaking tiny, digital fists.

Now, the gen thats coming up, the one after millenials, (what are they called?), *ooooph* Thats gonna be rough. Trophies for handing in your work on time!
 
2013-07-12 01:47:43 PM

Doc Daneeka: furiousidiot: Someone needs to start killing off Baby Boomers.

What the hell do you think Obama created the Death Panels for?


Exactly. You have to plan it correctly or you don't get the optimal return on investment vis a vis life insurance policies being null and void if you murder the farkers.
 
2013-07-12 01:49:05 PM

trickymoo: I suppose that that I am a Millenial, I was born in 86.

The more I think about my office experiences with the older crowds, the more I've felt that the X'ers were far less friendly/ socialable, but knew what to do in most every situation, and direct accordingly. The boomers are all incredibly nice but hold about as much usefulness as breast-plate nipples, but thye happen to be in charge.

Most of the 65+ year olds still working seem like they're just chasing the dragon man, and they aint ever gonna catch it. And the more I hang out in the office environment, the more I resent them and the just awful descisions/ "pulling up the ladder" that they commit. Very nasty business, really. But this is Fark, and we're all just shaking tiny, digital fists.

Now, the gen thats coming up, the one after millenials, (what are they called?), *ooooph* Thats gonna be rough. Trophies for handing in your work on time!


Yeah, we're gonna have to kill you farkers too.
 
2013-07-12 01:53:27 PM

steerforth: trickymoo: I suppose that that I am a Millenial, I was born in 86.

The more I think about my office experiences with the older crowds, the more I've felt that the X'ers were far less friendly/ socialable, but knew what to do in most every situation, and direct accordingly. The boomers are all incredibly nice but hold about as much usefulness as breast-plate nipples, but thye happen to be in charge.

Most of the 65+ year olds still working seem like they're just chasing the dragon man, and they aint ever gonna catch it. And the more I hang out in the office environment, the more I resent them and the just awful descisions/ "pulling up the ladder" that they commit. Very nasty business, really. But this is Fark, and we're all just shaking tiny, digital fists.

Now, the gen thats coming up, the one after millenials, (what are they called?), *ooooph* Thats gonna be rough. Trophies for handing in your work on time!

Yeah, we're gonna have to kill you farkers too.


Hah!

It's because we're just not SO faded yet? :-D
 
2013-07-12 01:56:06 PM

quickdraw: I have the same problem. I was born in 1961 so theoretically Im a boomer but my parents are boomers


Your parents had you when they were sixteen? If so, then yes, your experience was atypical from most other children born in 1961.
 
2013-07-12 01:58:58 PM
I'm now 13 years into my career, after graduating, as a programmer, into the .com bust. Through those 13 years, I've been given a single promotion, and I'm pretty sure that was a carrot to try to keep me from quitting... didn't work.

That said, I've still gotten ahead by getting those promotions by jumping companies instead. I don't, for a second, understand gen-X folks and younger that stay at a company for 5 to 10 years at a time. Loyalty is for suckers - the bosses I've had that seemed like the nicest guys in the world, everyone's best friend, have always turned into a repulsive jerk the moment I'd turn in my notice. Real Jekyll & Hyde shiat. Don't be fooled for a second that your best-buddy boss won't get rid of you to save himself.
 
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