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(CBS News)   This is it folks, your last Zimmerman thread as closing arguments start today and....who am I kidding? We're gonna have these threads everyday until Zimmerman's been dead for six years   (cbsnews.com) divider line 2719
    More: Interesting, jury instructions, forensic pathologists, murderers, right of self-defense  
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2505 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jul 2013 at 9:23 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-11 11:26:07 AM

Hobodeluxe: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Hobodeluxe: According to George he want back and forth then back again. from his truck, across the "T" to the next street then back to the truck, worked on his flashlight (because he was afraid of going back through that dark area he had just walked through) then went to the T and proceeded to walk down the dog walk until he met up with Trayvon. He was not at the truck when the confrontation began. He was not at the other street. he was down the alleyway. looking for Trayvon and he found him. Nowhere is there any proof that Trayvon left the area and then doubled back

There's proof right here.

7:09:34 - 7:13:41 - George Zimmerman calls the Sanford Police Department (SPD) from his truck; total time of the call is 4 minutes 7 seconds.[15]
7:11:33 - Zimmerman tells the police dispatcher that Trayvon Martin is running.
7:11:59 - In reply to the dispatcher's question, "Are you following him?" Zimmerman says, "Yes." Dispatcher states, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman replies, "OK."
7:12:00 - 7:12:59 - The girl calls Martin again at some point during this minute.[16]
7:13:10 - Zimmerman says he does not know where Martin is.
7:13:41 - Zimmerman's call to Sanford police ends.[16]
7:16:00 - 7:16:59 - Martin's call from the girl goes dead during this minute.[16][17]
7:16:11 - First 911 call from witness about a fight, calls for help heard.[18]
7:16:55 - Gunshot heard on 911 call.[19]

Zimmerman stays in the same general area in which Martin is running during 7:11:33, yet a confrontation happens over 2 minutes later, and less than 50 feet away. Tell me, is Martin a really slow, nearly invisible walker? Because that's the only way your story CAN make sense.

Your story relies on a "chase" that takes over 2 minutes to go 50 feet! It's farking insane!

and yet for over 2 min Zimmerman is on his way to the truck and can't make it zero ft?


STAYING STILL MEANS YOU ARE NOT THE AGGRESSOR!!  Thanks for agreeing that Zimmerman is the victim here.
 
2013-07-11 11:26:29 AM

Tatsuma: heili skrimsli: Because the entire system of jurisprudence and legislation in the United States is based upon the fundamental idea that laws are a list of things you're allowed to do.

Exactly that's what the law does.

Magnus: Totally surreal.

Absolutely


Don West sounds absolutely defeated right now. Just can't take this bullshiat anymore.


What are the odds Zimmerman in prison lives long enough to appeal?
 
2013-07-11 11:26:31 AM

MFAWG: 776.012 requires an affirmative defense, which Mr. Zimmermann decided not to use.



The State must prove the absence of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'll ask you the same question that tripleseven and youncasqua both keep dodging -- Do you believe that there is no reason, based on this evidence, to believe that Zimmerman acted in self-defense?  In other words, do you believe that self-defense is not at least one of the plausible hypotheses that could be true, in light of this evidence?
 
2013-07-11 11:26:46 AM

Facetious_Speciest: Hobodeluxe

about 20 ft from the T. and they're really short. and right up against the building.

If they're right up against the building, how do they conceal air conditioners? Are these slimline AC units?

I'm just farking with you now. I'll stop. It's not fun.


those at the end of the building are in the pics. you look at them as see if you think someone could hide in them and jump out and surprise someone 20 ft away. Zimmerman himself changed his story when asked about them.
 
2013-07-11 11:27:01 AM

Tatsuma: heili skrimsli: Some day this will be taught in law schools as to how not to run a trial.

Yeah I am serious they will actually just show huge chunks of this trial. This is... I have no words. This is the most ridiculous legal bullshiat I've seen in my life.

Southern100: And (some) people wonder how so many innocent people get sent to jail that are later exonerated 10+ years later.

How many innocents did SHE have sent to jail?


One interesting thing about video taping/broadcasting a trial is that you get to SEE the inflections, the expressions, the body language of the judge, lawyers, witnesses, etc.. Sure, there's always transcripts of trials, but you can't CAPTURE that stuff in transcripts.

Like when Lindsey Lohan flipped off the judge.  If that hadn't been caught on camera, how would that appear in a transcript? It wouldn't, unless someone in the court literally speaks aloud, "did you just flip off the judge?"

Her mannerisms, if not some of her statements, in court appear (at least to me) to be highly unprofessional in regards to the defense team; I would HOPE that if this case has to be appealed, that the appeals court would use some of the *video* evidence of any potential misconduct, and not just the transcripts.
 
2013-07-11 11:27:19 AM

keypusher: Yeah, and a man accused of rape can claim that the sex was consensual and hope that the jury believes him. What an outrage!


1.  That is part of the reason why rape cases are so difficult to prove.

2.  The difference between that and a deadly-force self-defense case is that, in the rape case, you would have the victim testifying that it was not consensual.  With deadly force, the victim obviously can't testify.
 
2013-07-11 11:27:38 AM

s2s2s2: PC LOAD LETTER: GZ had a concealed holster and a jacket on. It's unlikely TM would have seen the gun (though there's not a lot of detail on what happened here). SYG's an idiotic law on all levels. TM would have needed to be incapable of running away at all. Confronting a pursuer isn't covered by SYG, but it certainly is good street smarts in many cases. In TM's mind, it's likely he thought this was one of those cases. We all know that if TM killed GZ, he would be in prison for murder right now.

I just don't get how the same people that would argue "walking toward him" justified a deadly response from Trayvon, but that "being beaten up" doesn't justify a deadly response from George, on the basis that "we NOW know the injuries were not deadly(even though medical personnel referred him to a specialist to be sure, as they were, potentially deadly)" when the standard is "reasonably believed injury/death were imminent".


Deadly response? At no point has anyone proven that TM's response was, in fact, deadly. There's disagreement about the extent of the injuries. "Ground and pound" isn't "braining him on the sidewalk". There's a huge hole here. Maybe if GZ got some actual brain injury, this whole case would sit better with me. The two folks with poor judgement and poor impulse control would have each gotten their own punishment, and no jury would have needed to be involved.
 
2013-07-11 11:28:00 AM

All courtrooms should require all participants to engage in the fact meme, so as to humanize all parties, and allow for a strict, unbiased factual analysis!

FACT*


*-itty fact fact fact
 
2013-07-11 11:28:08 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Hobodeluxe: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Hobodeluxe: According to George he want back and forth then back again. from his truck, across the "T" to the next street then back to the truck, worked on his flashlight (because he was afraid of going back through that dark area he had just walked through) then went to the T and proceeded to walk down the dog walk until he met up with Trayvon. He was not at the truck when the confrontation began. He was not at the other street. he was down the alleyway. looking for Trayvon and he found him. Nowhere is there any proof that Trayvon left the area and then doubled back

There's proof right here.

7:09:34 - 7:13:41 - George Zimmerman calls the Sanford Police Department (SPD) from his truck; total time of the call is 4 minutes 7 seconds.[15]
7:11:33 - Zimmerman tells the police dispatcher that Trayvon Martin is running.
7:11:59 - In reply to the dispatcher's question, "Are you following him?" Zimmerman says, "Yes." Dispatcher states, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman replies, "OK."
7:12:00 - 7:12:59 - The girl calls Martin again at some point during this minute.[16]
7:13:10 - Zimmerman says he does not know where Martin is.
7:13:41 - Zimmerman's call to Sanford police ends.[16]
7:16:00 - 7:16:59 - Martin's call from the girl goes dead during this minute.[16][17]
7:16:11 - First 911 call from witness about a fight, calls for help heard.[18]
7:16:55 - Gunshot heard on 911 call.[19]

Zimmerman stays in the same general area in which Martin is running during 7:11:33, yet a confrontation happens over 2 minutes later, and less than 50 feet away. Tell me, is Martin a really slow, nearly invisible walker? Because that's the only way your story CAN make sense.

Your story relies on a "chase" that takes over 2 minutes to go 50 feet! It's farking insane!

and yet for over 2 min Zimmerman is on his way to the truck and can't make it zero ft?

STAYING STILL MEANS YOU ARE NOT THE AGGRESSOR!!  Thanks for agreeing that Zimmerman is the victi ...


he didn't move any distance toward the truck he went down the walk towards trayvon
 
2013-07-11 11:28:12 AM

Hobodeluxe: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Hobodeluxe: According to George he want back and forth then back again. from his truck, across the "T" to the next street then back to the truck, worked on his flashlight (because he was afraid of going back through that dark area he had just walked through) then went to the T and proceeded to walk down the dog walk until he met up with Trayvon. He was not at the truck when the confrontation began. He was not at the other street. he was down the alleyway. looking for Trayvon and he found him. Nowhere is there any proof that Trayvon left the area and then doubled back

There's proof right here.

7:09:34 - 7:13:41 - George Zimmerman calls the Sanford Police Department (SPD) from his truck; total time of the call is 4 minutes 7 seconds.[15]
7:11:33 - Zimmerman tells the police dispatcher that Trayvon Martin is running.
7:11:59 - In reply to the dispatcher's question, "Are you following him?" Zimmerman says, "Yes." Dispatcher states, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman replies, "OK."
7:12:00 - 7:12:59 - The girl calls Martin again at some point during this minute.[16]
7:13:10 - Zimmerman says he does not know where Martin is.
7:13:41 - Zimmerman's call to Sanford police ends.[16]
7:16:00 - 7:16:59 - Martin's call from the girl goes dead during this minute.[16][17]
7:16:11 - First 911 call from witness about a fight, calls for help heard.[18]
7:16:55 - Gunshot heard on 911 call.[19]

Zimmerman stays in the same general area in which Martin is running during 7:11:33, yet a confrontation happens over 2 minutes later, and less than 50 feet away. Tell me, is Martin a really slow, nearly invisible walker? Because that's the only way your story CAN make sense.

Your story relies on a "chase" that takes over 2 minutes to go 50 feet! It's farking insane!

and yet for over 2 min Zimmerman is on his way to the truck and can't make it zero ft?


And what was Martin doing during this time?  Oh right, he couldn't come out of hiding because GZ was "right there".  Oh wait, he was talking on the phone with Dee Dee... so how did GZ not hear him?  Face it dude.  The evidence supports the conclusion that Martin got far enough away that he could have gone home.  He lost Zimmerman as that's what we hear on the call to dispatch. You're failing so hard right now.
 
2013-07-11 11:28:13 AM
If this keeps up and Zimmerman is found guilty I might riot. Not because I think he's innocent but because this trial was a joke.
 
2013-07-11 11:28:33 AM

Facetious_Speciest: Into the blue again

There is a quote button for a reason.

Then use it. Does it fark up your reading if I don't enable everything and use HTML?


I use it just in case I quote someone who is on another farkers ignore list. It is common coutesy. You should too.
 
2013-07-11 11:28:35 AM
Nelson kinda has a smirk when she talks to west now
 
2013-07-11 11:28:43 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Hobodeluxe: According to George he want back and forth then back again. from his truck, across the "T" to the next street then back to the truck, worked on his flashlight (because he was afraid of going back through that dark area he had just walked through) then went to the T and proceeded to walk down the dog walk until he met up with Trayvon. He was not at the truck when the confrontation began. He was not at the other street. he was down the alleyway. looking for Trayvon and he found him. Nowhere is there any proof that Trayvon left the area and then doubled back

There's proof right here.

7:09:34 - 7:13:41 - George Zimmerman calls the Sanford Police Department (SPD) from his truck; total time of the call is 4 minutes 7 seconds.[15]
7:11:33 - Zimmerman tells the police dispatcher that Trayvon Martin is running.
7:11:59 - In reply to the dispatcher's question, "Are you following him?" Zimmerman says, "Yes." Dispatcher states, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman replies, "OK."
7:12:00 - 7:12:59 - The girl calls Martin again at some point during this minute.[16]
7:13:10 - Zimmerman says he does not know where Martin is.
7:13:41 - Zimmerman's call to Sanford police ends.[16]
7:16:00 - 7:16:59 - Martin's call from the girl goes dead during this minute.[16][17]

7:16:11 - First 911 call from witness about a fight, calls for help heard.[18]
7:16:55 - Gunshot heard on 911 call.[19]

Zimmerman stays in the same general area in which Martin is running during 7:11:33, yet a confrontation happens over 2 minutes later, and less than 50 feet away. Tell me, is Martin a really slow, nearly invisible walker? Because that's the only way your story CAN make sense.

Your story relies on a "chase" that takes over 2 minutes to go 50 feet! It's farking insane!


that would be the time it took Martin to travel back from the town house he was staying to where Zimmerman was standing.  I used to live in apartments similar in setup to the ones that Martin lived.  It would take 3 -5 minutes to cover the area from one end to the other if walking at a steady brisk clip.
 
2013-07-11 11:29:00 AM
Well, score one for the defense.
 
2013-07-11 11:29:10 AM

Frank N Stein: Can anyone explain why this woman is a judge? She's absolutely terrible and should probably be disbarred


Under normal circumstances people like the fact that she is tough on crime.
 
2013-07-11 11:30:01 AM

Tatsuma: Hahahahahah

Don West: Just when I thought this case couldn't get more bizarre, the State is asking for the defendant being charged with child abuse'

He couldn't be facepalming harder right now.


To be fair, he did hurt Trayvon's hands using his face as the assault weapon.
 
2013-07-11 11:30:27 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: At no point has anyone proven that TM's response was, in fact, deadly.


www.claimspages.com
Punched in the face once. Died.
 
2013-07-11 11:30:39 AM
Into the blue again

I use it just in case I quote someone who is on another farkers ignore list. It is common coutesy. You should too.

I decline. There is no quote button for me, as I already explained. If it bothers that much, put me on ignore, then you won't see if I quote someone else you want to ignore.

Not trying to be a dick, but you're essentially saying I'm a bad person for not browsing like you do.
 
2013-07-11 11:30:51 AM

Millennium: fredklein: Others would have you believe that Trayvon, who was running away, suddenly did a psychological 180 and turned to attack. This makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Happens all the time in pursuit cases: you realize that you can't shake your pursuer, so you turn and fight.


Makes No sense, if you beleive that Zimmerman was returnign to his car at the time. Why "turn and fight" a retreating opponent?

Others would have you believe that Zimmerman, who was chasing Trayvon this whole time, suddenly became completely passive when meeting Trayvon. This makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Not all pursuers are looking for a melee: in fact, most aren't.


And the BEST way to avoid a melee is... to not pursue to begin with!

Some would have you believe that Zimmerman, who has since changed his story several times, and lied to the court regarding money for bail, it telling the absolute truth about what happened. This makes no sense.

It harms his credibility severely, but it doesn't mean the situation he outlined makes no sense.


It makes the details he puts forth questionable, at best.

Even if Zimmerman is lying about some details of this, it's still in his interest to tell as much of the truth as possible.

But the devil's in the details. One or two minor details could change the whole situation. Let's say Zimmerman 'forgot' to tell us he put his hand on his gun. That right there lets Trayvon know Zimmerman's armed, and changes the situation completely. So, I'll grant that Zimmerman may indeed be telling mostly the truth. But that means nothing if he's lying about the details.

That means you've got to either assume he's telling the truth on every point, or prove the points where he's not. You're doing neither.

I don't have to do either. The logical thing to do is to be suspicious of everything he says, until it's backed up by outside evidence.
 
2013-07-11 11:31:01 AM

Headso: Frank N Stein: Can anyone explain why this woman is a judge? She's absolutely terrible and should probably be disbarred

Under normal circumstances people like the fact that she is tough on crime.


I wonder how many people she's put away unfairly. Watching this trial really makes you think.
 
2013-07-11 11:31:09 AM

MFAWG: 776.012 requires an affirmative defense, which Mr. Zimmermann decided not to use.


How do you figure?

The State actually put self-defense at issue by entering Zimmerman's statements to the police and Hannity show, and recreation, into evidence.  He didn't have to raise it past that.
 
2013-07-11 11:31:12 AM
I am old enough to remember OJ on trial, everyone knowing he was guilty as hell, and then the jury let him walk.  A couple black peeps in the office fist-pumped a "We won!" when it was televised.

This will not be about the law, it will be about who the jury wants to "win."  It's a coin toss.
 
2013-07-11 11:31:28 AM

keypusher: PC LOAD LETTER: KellyX: TM should have stayed in his damn home. FACT

or

TM should have ran home and not confront GZ. FACT

Stayed home? Yes, because that's reasonable. GZ should have stayed home in that case as well.

Ran home? Seriously? If you think you are being chased by a white dude out to get a negro, why the hell would you lead him directly to your home?

Black people's worst nightmare is being killed by white racists*: FACT

*not that GZ was one, but he sure made every effort to make TM think that might be the case.

Then black people need to get a clue.  Black people's reality is getting killed by other black people.  Black people getting killed by white people, racist or otherwise, is vanishingly rare.


This isn't Detroit or Newark. In the area this occurred, there are mostly white folks (57%, 30% blacks, and the rest Latinos). There has been racial issues in Sanford in the past: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/trayvon-martin-sanford-ra c ial-history

I am glad your whiteness makes you happy and that black people need to "get a clue". I am sure you have a black friend. Ask them what they think.
 
2013-07-11 11:31:28 AM

heili skrimsli: Tatsuma: heili skrimsli: Because the entire system of jurisprudence and legislation in the United States is based upon the fundamental idea that laws are a list of things you're allowed to do.

Exactly that's what the law does.

Magnus: Totally surreal.

Absolutely


Don West sounds absolutely defeated right now. Just can't take this bullshiat anymore.

What are the odds Zimmerman in prison lives long enough to appeal?


He most likely will get an appeal bond if he does get convicted.
 
2013-07-11 11:31:39 AM

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Hobodeluxe: BraveNewCheneyWorld: Hobodeluxe: According to George he want back and forth then back again. from his truck, across the "T" to the next street then back to the truck, worked on his flashlight (because he was afraid of going back through that dark area he had just walked through) then went to the T and proceeded to walk down the dog walk until he met up with Trayvon. He was not at the truck when the confrontation began. He was not at the other street. he was down the alleyway. looking for Trayvon and he found him. Nowhere is there any proof that Trayvon left the area and then doubled back

There's proof right here.

7:09:34 - 7:13:41 - George Zimmerman calls the Sanford Police Department (SPD) from his truck; total time of the call is 4 minutes 7 seconds.[15]
7:11:33 - Zimmerman tells the police dispatcher that Trayvon Martin is running.
7:11:59 - In reply to the dispatcher's question, "Are you following him?" Zimmerman says, "Yes." Dispatcher states, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman replies, "OK."
7:12:00 - 7:12:59 - The girl calls Martin again at some point during this minute.[16]
7:13:10 - Zimmerman says he does not know where Martin is.
7:13:41 - Zimmerman's call to Sanford police ends.[16]
7:16:00 - 7:16:59 - Martin's call from the girl goes dead during this minute.[16][17]
7:16:11 - First 911 call from witness about a fight, calls for help heard.[18]
7:16:55 - Gunshot heard on 911 call.[19]

Zimmerman stays in the same general area in which Martin is running during 7:11:33, yet a confrontation happens over 2 minutes later, and less than 50 feet away. Tell me, is Martin a really slow, nearly invisible walker? Because that's the only way your story CAN make sense.

Your story relies on a "chase" that takes over 2 minutes to go 50 feet! It's farking insane!

and yet for over 2 min Zimmerman is on his way to the truck and can't make it zero ft?

STAYING STILL MEANS YOU ARE NOT THE AGGRESSOR!!  Thanks for agreeing that Zimmerman is the victi ...


So Martin pulled Zimmerman out of the truck?
 
2013-07-11 11:31:59 AM

airsupport: Darth_Lukecash:  Probably because he had that happy warm gun toting superiority that comes with the second amendment.

I gotta be honest, Darth, I never realized what a histrionic, intolerant, judgmental reactionary you are.  Up until this thread you seemed to have a good head on your shoulders and I enjoyed your posts.  I am sorry I misjudged you.


Strange, what ever could be the reason why my personality changed...

Trolling? hmmmmmm could be?

Personally I think both Zimmerman and Martin were hotheads. All of this could have been avoided.

The trial will decide on Zimmermans guilt or innocent, not me.

If it was up to me manslaughter. Only because he escalated the situation.
 
2013-07-11 11:32:01 AM
So if it was child abuse, do you have to let a 17 year old beat you to death and not fight back? according to this weaselly guy
 
2013-07-11 11:32:32 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: Deadly response? At no point has anyone proven that TM's response was, in fact, deadly


A potentially deadly act (confirmed by multiple testimonies) is a deadly act. But I wasn't really arguing whether or not it was. I was talking about how people have argued.
 
2013-07-11 11:32:44 AM

Hobodeluxe: he didn't move any distance toward the truck he went down the walk towards trayvon


And how did Martin wind up only a few feet away down the sidewalk by that time?  He doubled back.  I don't know why you're being willfully obtuse.
 
2013-07-11 11:32:45 AM

Treygreen13: PC LOAD LETTER: At no point has anyone proven that TM's response was, in fact, deadly.

[www.claimspages.com image 317x209]
Punched in the face once. Died.


So we should classify fistfights as combat with deadly weapons, correct?
 
2013-07-11 11:33:18 AM
Shocked west disagrees with the judge and the state
 
2013-07-11 11:33:57 AM

whizbangthedirtfarmer: So Martin pulled Zimmerman out of the truck?


Please be able to follow the conversation before you try injecting your thoughts.
 
2013-07-11 11:34:35 AM

WillofJ2: So if it was child abuse, do you have to let a 17 year old beat you to death and not fight back? according to this weaselly guy


Weasely guy is right, and he needs to borrow a chin from Judge Walrus, she has a couple to spare.
 
2013-07-11 11:34:48 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: Treygreen13: PC LOAD LETTER: At no point has anyone proven that TM's response was, in fact, deadly.

[www.claimspages.com image 317x209]
Punched in the face once. Died.

So we should classify fistfights as combat with deadly weapons, correct?


Absolutely. Some professional fighters are *already* classified that way.
 
2013-07-11 11:34:58 AM

Facetious_Speciest: Into the blue again

I use it just in case I quote someone who is on another farkers ignore list. It is common coutesy. You should too.

I decline. There is no quote button for me, as I already explained. If it bothers that much, put me on ignore, then you won't see if I quote someone else you want to ignore.

Not trying to be a dick, but you're essentially saying I'm a bad person for not browsing like you do.


I wasn't gonna go with bad, just self absorbed. It's not about browsing like I do, it is about being courteous to your fellow farker!!!
 
2013-07-11 11:34:58 AM

A Whole Gopher Village: I think the real problem here is the stupid Stand Your Ground law that Florida politicians enacted. Both of the parties involved were stupid hot heads that caused this scenario to evolve into what it is now, but because of the stupid law there is to much grey area to have a reasonable conclusion. More than likely, because of this murky law, Zimmerman will walk.

/Really couldn't care either way.
//Florida residents brought this on themselves by electing in the law makers behind the law.
///When the riots start, lets just hope there will be nothing left of the state shaped like the male member.


You mean despite the fact that SYG has absolutely no application or impact on this case?
 
2013-07-11 11:35:27 AM

fredklein: Millennium: fredklein: Others would have you believe that Trayvon, who was running away, suddenly did a psychological 180 and turned to attack. This makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Happens all the time in pursuit cases: you realize that you can't shake your pursuer, so you turn and fight.

Makes No sense, if you beleive that Zimmerman was returnign to his car at the time. Why "turn and fight" a retreating opponent?

Others would have you believe that Zimmerman, who was chasing Trayvon this whole time, suddenly became completely passive when meeting Trayvon. This makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Not all pursuers are looking for a melee: in fact, most aren't.

And the BEST way to avoid a melee is... to not pursue to begin with!

Some would have you believe that Zimmerman, who has since changed his story several times, and lied to the court regarding money for bail, it telling the absolute truth about what happened. This makes no sense.

It harms his credibility severely, but it doesn't mean the situation he outlined makes no sense.

It makes the details he puts forth questionable, at best.

Even if Zimmerman is lying about some details of this, it's still in his interest to tell as much of the truth as possible.

But the devil's in the details. One or two minor details could change the whole situation. Let's say Zimmerman 'forgot' to tell us he put his hand on his gun. That right there lets Trayvon know Zimmerman's armed, and changes the situation completely. So, I'll grant that Zimmerman may indeed be telling mostly the truth. But that means nothing if he's lying about the details.

That means you've got to either assume he's telling the truth on every point, or prove the points where he's not. You're doing neither.

I don't have to do either. The logical thing to do is to be suspicious of everything he says, until it's backed up by outside evidence.


You mean like the witness who substantiate large portions of his story both during and after the fight?  You're right, we should only assume he was telling the truth when those portions line up.  After all, he knew exactly what the witnesses would say so he made sure to only tell the truth that they could confirm.  All the rest are "obviously" lies.
 
2013-07-11 11:35:55 AM
I'm not sure why the defense waived the aggravated battery instruction for self-defense. Wouldn't it have been in their interest to argue to the jury that Martin was the one committing a felony when he was beating Zimmerman?
 
2013-07-11 11:36:07 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: Maybe if GZ got some actual brain injury, this whole case would sit better with me.


you don't have to wait until your brains fall out to defend yourself, dude.  i mean seriously.
 
2013-07-11 11:36:12 AM

s2s2s2: fredklein: Zimmerman claims he was in fear of his life, but his wounds were minor

This is immaterial. He reasonably believed grievous bodily harm was IMMINENT. This means it was likely to happen if the assault continued. That is all he needs to justify the use of deadly force.



As Heath Ledger once said, "Never start with the head, the victim gets all fuzzy."

Smashing GZ's head into the concrete was a surefire way of farking with his very consciousness, his ability to think clearly and sense what was happening to him. That's a guaranteed way to induce panic, if someone believes that they're about to be knocked completely unconscious and placed completely at the mercy of the other person.
 
2013-07-11 11:36:16 AM

Boojum2k: WillofJ2: So if it was child abuse, do you have to let a 17 year old beat you to death and not fight back? according to this weaselly guy

Weasely guy is right, and he needs to borrow a chin from Judge Walrus, she has a couple to spare.


I mean by right only that it is an accurate description, not sure he's been right about anything yet.
 
2013-07-11 11:36:38 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: Treygreen13: PC LOAD LETTER: At no point has anyone proven that TM's response was, in fact, deadly.

[www.claimspages.com image 317x209]
Punched in the face once. Died.

So we should classify fistfights as combat with deadly weapons, correct?


No. But you also can't say that nobody used "deadly force" with their fists. And you certainly can't claim that nobody can use fists to threaten imminent death or great bodily harm, as are the requirement for this case.
 
2013-07-11 11:37:02 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: Deadly response? At no point has anyone proven that TM's response was, in fact, deadly. There's disagreement about the extent of the injuries. "Ground and pound" isn't "braining him on the sidewalk". There's a huge hole here. Maybe if GZ got some actual brain injury, this whole case would sit better with me.


If I were aiming for someone's heart with a gun, but I miss and only hit them in the shoulder, I've still used deadly force. If Martin hit Zimmerman's head on the curb once or twice, but Zimmerman somehow managed to escape a brain injury, then Martin still used deadly force.
 
2013-07-11 11:37:19 AM
Into the blue again

I wasn't gonna go with bad, just self absorbed.

Says the guy insisting I do what he does the way he does it because it's a courtesy.

I decline. Are we done with this?
 
2013-07-11 11:37:43 AM

Hobodeluxe: he didn't move any distance toward the truck he went down the walk towards trayvon


Which we know from his testimony. Meaning it is easy to conclude "headed back to my truck" was a state of mind statement. His mind, it was over. I tell someone I'm headed over, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm in my car. It means that what I am now doing, is leading to the conclusion that I am headed toward them, soon.
 
2013-07-11 11:38:00 AM

s2s2s2: confirmed by multiple testimonies


This is a gross overstatement. There's some overlapping corroboration. There's not a lot of direct evidence in this case. The two biggest sources of evidence were Jeantel and Zimmerman's prior statements. Both have serious issues. The rest are the battle of the experts for medical injuries, bullet/gunshot evidence, and the eyewitnesses viewing a fight, at a distance, in the rain, in poor light. Some of it overlaps and can be pushed up in the likely list. The rest is up for grabs.
 
2013-07-11 11:38:51 AM
Oh snap. "So you didn't read the provided case and the synopsis you read was given by the state?"
 
2013-07-11 11:38:57 AM

Headso: Frank N Stein: Can anyone explain why this woman is a judge? She's absolutely terrible and should probably be disbarred

Under normal circumstances people like the fact that she is tough on crime.


Until they see that "tough on crime" sometimes mean railroading people.  So, in that sense, cameras in the courtroom and high profile cases can help.  But usually high profile cases are so far from the norm that people get a misconstrued sense of how cases really work.
 
2013-07-11 11:39:19 AM

frepnog: PC LOAD LETTER: Maybe if GZ got some actual brain injury, this whole case would sit better with me.

you don't have to wait until your brains fall out to defend yourself, dude.  i mean seriously.


I never actually said that.
 
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