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(CBS News)   This is it folks, your last Zimmerman thread as closing arguments start today and....who am I kidding? We're gonna have these threads everyday until Zimmerman's been dead for six years   (cbsnews.com) divider line 2717
    More: Interesting, jury instructions, forensic pathologists, murderers, right of self-defense  
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2512 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jul 2013 at 9:23 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-11 11:10:51 AM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: Hobodeluxe: if Trayvon had time to get home does it not stand to reason that George had more than enough time to get back to his truck? He said he walked over to the next street( to get an address) . then back to his truck, fiddled with his flashlight trying to get it to work while at his truck then went back out, didn't see anything and was on his way to the truck for the 2nd time when Trayvon jumped out of the bushes (that weren't there) and attacked him.

Zimmerman stayed in the same general area.  Martin went out of sight and then returned, meaning he is the aggressor.  How do you not get this by now?


According to George he want back and forth then back again. from his truck, across the "T" to the next street then back to the truck, worked on his flashlight (because he was afraid of going back through that dark area he had just walked through) then went to the T and proceeded to walk down the dog walk until he met up with Trayvon. He was not at the truck when the confrontation began. He was not at the other street. he was down the alleyway. looking for Trayvon and he found him. Nowhere is there any proof that Trayvon left the area and then doubled back
 
2013-07-11 11:11:00 AM  

Tatsuma: I would ask this judge to please show me where it says that it's legal for a man to masturbate in the confines of his own domicile while watching pornography.

Wait, no law specifies that? Then I would ask that please every single male in America be arrested and put on the sex offenders' registry.


The judge just switched the entire concept of proving a negative around.
 
2013-07-11 11:11:01 AM  
This is trial has broken on through to the other side.
 
2013-07-11 11:11:09 AM  

Civil_War2_Time: If the comma doesn't fit, you must acquit.


what is this about?
not watching?
can any kind soul give a quick recap of the jury instruction status?
 
2013-07-11 11:11:10 AM  
Holy shiat then the judge turns around and says:

'You're asking him to prove a negative!'

YOU JUST FARKING ASKED HIM TO PROVE THAT SOMETHING IS LEGAL BY QUOTING A LAW SAYING IT IS.

Then farking telling him overruled


Holy farking shiat.
 
2013-07-11 11:12:03 AM  
tatsuma:
I would ask this judge to please show me where it says that it's legal for a man to masturbate in the confines of his own domicile while watching pornography.
Wait, no law specifies that? Then I would ask that please every single male in America be arrested and put on the sex offenders' registry.

pretty sure this is covered in the constitution/bill of rights? ("right to privacy"?)
 
2013-07-11 11:12:08 AM  
OMG, she's insisting that West provides a law showing that walking around is legal.  FFS, show me a law that shows that eating lettuce with dressing is legal!
 
2013-07-11 11:12:10 AM  
If you don't like my rulings deal with it an appeal
 
2013-07-11 11:12:16 AM  
"You continually disagree with me. I'm ruling this in spite of the fact that it isn't the law. Deal with it."
 
2013-07-11 11:12:20 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-11 11:12:23 AM  
Holy crap.

Mistrial right there.

Prosecution can tell the jury that following Trayvon was illegal, and the defense can't do anything about it.
 
2013-07-11 11:12:23 AM  
She just said you can appeal, no worries
 
2013-07-11 11:12:25 AM  
Wow! She's wanting to get him on contempt SO bad.
 
2013-07-11 11:12:26 AM  

Facetious_Speciest: Hobodeluxe

but those small hedges were down the alley from where Zimmerman said he was attacked. Zimmerman later changed his story to Trayvon jumped out of the darkness once the investigator asked him where are the bushes?

No. There are hedges running along the end of both building blocks, and every unit has another hedge behind it that conceals its air-conditioning unit. That puts four separate concealing hedges within twenty feet of the T.


so now he was crouching behind a 2 ft hedge while talking on the phone planning an ambush?
 
2013-07-11 11:12:35 AM  

parasol: I'm going farking insane I HATE that judge.

hobodelux
she's being fair. West is all like "you sprang this on us" "this is totally unexpected" when he knows damn well that these lesser charges were going to be asked for. He knows what they could and couldn't try to charge. And now it's the state's problem they weren't prepared?  bullshiat. this is all theatre. they knew. they have counter arguments ready. they just want to appear oppressed

I'd agree - we've been speculating about lesser charges in here for weeks AND have had time to come up with riot contingency plans, too


You know how I know you're both trolls

/who predicted child abuse charges?
 
2013-07-11 11:12:49 AM  

fredklein: tenpoundsofcheese: Also, if he called Precious instead of the police or a male friend to help him out when he saw this creepy ass cracker, how scared could he have been?

Yeah, because minorities have such good experiences calling the cops. it's not like the cops would hassle him or anything.


I'm hispanic and live in a large city. So when I skulk around your neighborhood and you are watching me, I have the right to leave and then come back and beat you up? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

TM was out of "danger" and returned to "confront" the person following him as testified to by the prosecution's witness. He had no right to hit GZ, and even if he did, he had no right to continue assualting GZ after GZ was subdued. TM escalated the situation by using force that was unnecessary given the situation, and continued to use that force after the threat was neutralized. He was a vigilante and finding GZ guilty will encourage vigilante justice. If TM had done the right thing and called the cops when he felt threatened, none of this would have happened.
 
2013-07-11 11:12:59 AM  

Tatsuma: Holy shiat then the judge turns around and says:

'You're asking him to prove a negative!'

YOU JUST FARKING ASKED HIM TO PROVE THAT SOMETHING IS LEGAL BY QUOTING A LAW SAYING IT IS.

Then farking telling him overruled


Holy farking shiat.


That's precisely what she did. Wow.
 
2013-07-11 11:13:06 AM  

Civil_War2_Time: Wow! She's wanting to get him on contempt SO bad.


If he keeps arguing we might see it.
 
2013-07-11 11:13:26 AM  
Ok, seriously. This judge is horrible. The whole "show me where the law says it's legal" thing is just idiotic.
 
2013-07-11 11:13:34 AM  

Mi-5: s2s2s2: Judge Nelson likes is slow. FACT

This meme is BEYOND tired.  I would suggest something else, as this, to me, has descended itself to threadshiatting.


Mi-5 doesn't like the "Fact" meme and considers it threadshiatting: FACT
 
2013-07-11 11:13:35 AM  
" You continually disagree with this court when the court disagrees, you CANNOT argue with me anymore once I rule something, just appeal the case, until then shut the fark up'.  "

And again, MOTION DENIED

Wow, we are literally watching a complete miscarriage of justice.
 
2013-07-11 11:13:39 AM  

The Muthaship: Facetious_Speciest: Tatsuma

PROVE TO ME ITS LEGAL
'Well it's not in the law books because it's lawful behavior'
OVERRULED

This. How weird.

"SHOW ME WHERE THE LAW SAYS YOU CAN WEAR UNDERWEAR!"

"Uh, it doesn't, there's simply no law against it..."

It's the "Show me where it tells you where the mess hall is in the manual, Marine." angle from A Few Good Men.


I ... just made that exact same reference to someone on IM at work.

Are you hiding in my office?
 
2013-07-11 11:13:43 AM  
He is asking for a motion in limine to limit them from saying/hinting in closing that following is illegal.  The reason is that you may object during closing, but you damn better be right because it will probably result in a mistrial if the state did it, and prejudice against the Defendant if the Court has to rule on that issue in front of the jury.
 
2013-07-11 11:13:54 AM  
I think the real problem here is the stupid Stand Your Ground law that Florida politicians enacted. Both of the parties involved were stupid hot heads that caused this scenario to evolve into what it is now, but because of the stupid law there is to much grey area to have a reasonable conclusion. More than likely, because of this murky law, Zimmerman will walk.

/Really couldn't care either way.
//Florida residents brought this on themselves by electing in the law makers behind the law.
///When the riots start, lets just hope there will be nothing left of the state shaped like the male member.
 
2013-07-11 11:13:56 AM  

Civil_War2_Time: Wow! She's wanting to get him on contempt SO bad.


Really though why is no west doing this, maybe he had a better understanding of the law or something but this judge seeming palpably hates him
 
2013-07-11 11:13:56 AM  
If this lady worked in an office, she'd be the type of lady who filed a hostile work environment grievance anytime someone argued with her when she said something stupid.
 
2013-07-11 11:13:59 AM  

Phinn: The provocation instruction is out.

See, this is actual law -- following someone at a distance is NOT PROVOCATION of the use of force against yourself.

How many electrons have been wasted here, arguing that Zimmerman brought the beating on himself by provoking force against himself?


Dude, in some states that is exactly the case. Legal doesn't mean right. Legal in FL doesn't mean the FL laws are the right laws. That is what we argue here.
 
2013-07-11 11:14:06 AM  

Mi-5: s2s2s2: Judge Nelson likes is slow. FACT

This meme is BEYOND tired.  I would suggest something else, as this, to me, has descended itself to threadshiatting.


Mi-5 does NOT approve of this meme: Theory postulated by the defense!
 
2013-07-11 11:14:07 AM  

Phinn: The provocation instruction is out.

See, this is actual law -- following someone at a distance is NOT PROVOCATION of the use of force against yourself.

How many electrons have been wasted here, arguing that Zimmerman brought the beating on himself by provoking force against himself?


It is endlessly amusing how you discover how the judge is applying "actual law" when she makes a ruling you like or pro-defense, but she is the worst judge and "pro-prosecution" whenever she makes a ruling or decision you don't like.

Makes for entertaining reading and wonderful leaps of hypocritical gymnastics.

/at least be consistent
 
2013-07-11 11:14:41 AM  

heili skrimsli: Are you hiding in my office?


I work for the NSA.
 
2013-07-11 11:14:43 AM  
Can anyone explain why this woman is a judge? She's absolutely terrible and should probably be disbarred
 
2013-07-11 11:14:57 AM  

fredklein: Millennium: fredklein: Unless you can read dead people's minds, you don't know if Trayvon knew about the gun.

No, but the weapon was concealed.

And no one can ever see the bulge the gun makes in clothing, right? There's absolutely no way they the gun could be seen when the wearer adjusts his clothing.


It can happen, but there's no reason to believe that it did happen. Guns are concealed this way for a reason: sure, the bulge is visible to someone looking carefully, but casual inspection passes right over it. There's no reason to believe Martin would have looked more carefully than that.

And, of course, we know for a fact that Zimmerman didn't pull the gun before he said he did, Right?

The witness says ge drew it before shooting Martin, so if he did pull the gun sooner than that, then he must have put it back: a clear attempt at de-escalation.

When the facts side with you, pound the facts.
When the law sides with you, pound the law.
When neither sides with you, pound the table.

Sounds like ad hoc logic to me. The kind y'all use. I prefer to just look at (not "pound") the facts, and see where they lead.


Actually, it's a saying you hear a lot among lawyers. You're pounding the table, arguing not on facts or legalities but on speculation.
 
2013-07-11 11:15:01 AM  

fredklein: Each little bit of logic means little, but when added up, it shows a pattern. Zimmerman wanted to get Trayvon. Trayvon wanted to get away. Other people's narratives have them suddenly reversing roles- Trayvon the assaulter, and Zimmerman the poor prey trying to flee. This makes no sense.


the problem you are ignoring is this -

Zimmerman did not do anything illegal, and Martin did in fact evade Zimmerman and then returned to confront.

I get that is seems that you can not believe that a person would in fact DO that...  but that is in fact what occurred.  Zimmerman and Martin met up and had an altercation because it is what Martin desired.  There was no reason for Martin to return to Zimmerman.  He had eluded his gaze.  It would appear that Martin's sense of pride or simply his proven gangsta way of life dictated that he return to Zimmerman and teach that cracka a lesson.

The lesson here is this - do not physically attack someone.  That someone might have a gun and might end your goddamned life.
 
2013-07-11 11:15:04 AM  

parasol: pretty sure this is covered in the constitution/bill of rights? ("right to privacy"?)


No I need you to quote me the exact law to show where its legal.
 
2013-07-11 11:15:06 AM  
Hobodeluxe

so now he was crouching behind a 2 ft hedge while talking on the phone planning an ambush?

So now there are hedges there? You said there weren't. At all.
 
2013-07-11 11:15:28 AM  

Tatsuma: " You continually disagree with this court when the court disagrees, you CANNOT argue with me anymore once I rule something, just appeal the case, until then shut the fark up'.  "

And again, MOTION DENIED

Wow, we are literally watching a complete miscarriage of justice.


Some day this will be taught in law schools as to how not to run a trial.
 
2013-07-11 11:15:28 AM  

s2s2s2: fredklein: Zimmerman claims he was in fear of his life, but his wounds were minor

This is immaterial. He reasonably believed grievous bodily harm was IMMINENT. This means it was likely to happen if the assault continued.


If the assault continued, he would have gotten a few more scratches.
If it then continued more, he would have gotten a few scratches more.

That is all he needs to justify the use of deadly force.

All a murderer needs to go free is to claim that he thought that he 'reasonably' believed that grievous bodily harm might have been IMMINENT?? Wow. That's one airtight law. No loopholes there.
 
2013-07-11 11:15:34 AM  

A Whole Gopher Village: I think the real problem here is the stupid Stand Your Ground law that Florida politicians enacted. Both of the parties involved were stupid hot heads that caused this scenario to evolve into what it is now, but because of the stupid law there is to much grey area to have a reasonable conclusion. More than likely, because of this murky law, Zimmerman will walk.

/Really couldn't care either way.
//Florida residents brought this on themselves by electing in the law makers behind the law.
///When the riots start, lets just hope there will be nothing left of the state shaped like the male member.


This IS florida, they let Casey Anthony off the hook. Maybe they will convict GZ of 1st degree murder and put him on death row. You just never know with Fark's favorite state.
 
2013-07-11 11:15:37 AM  
Acquittal. This isn't rocket surgery.
 
2013-07-11 11:15:37 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Here's my problem: didn't Trayvon have a right to defend himself against a man who was following him with a gun?


Are you suggesting that Trayvon should have Stood His Ground?
 
2013-07-11 11:15:42 AM  

zeroman987: TM was out of "danger" and returned to "confront" the person following him as testified to by the prosecution's witness.


Not sure that's what was said in the trial. Regardless, the only witness was GZ. The guy on trial for murder. Totally no motivation for lying.
 
2013-07-11 11:15:44 AM  
West's white maleness fails him again.
i.imgur.com
Click to embiggen
 
2013-07-11 11:16:01 AM  

Tatsuma: " You continually disagree with this court when the court disagrees, you CANNOT argue with me anymore once I rule something, just appeal the case, until then shut the fark up'.  "

And again, MOTION DENIED

Wow, we are literally watching a complete miscarriage of justice.


And (some) people wonder how so many innocent people get sent to jail that are later exonerated 10+ years later.
 
2013-07-11 11:16:18 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Civil_War2_Time: If the comma doesn't fit, you must acquit.

what is this about?
not watching?
can any kind soul give a quick recap of the jury instruction status?


The judge said that there have been people convicted due to the lack of a comma in the lawyer's (defense and prosecution) written statements in the past. IIRC.
 
2013-07-11 11:16:20 AM  

The Muthaship: heili skrimsli: Are you hiding in my office?

I work for the NSA.


Really? What was my last text message? :P
 
2013-07-11 11:16:31 AM  

Mi-5: at least be consistent


That's what we'd like the judge to be, but her operating theory seems to be "allow the defense small victories to appear reasonable, but really help the prosecution in every way, shape, and form that actually matters."
 
2013-07-11 11:16:31 AM  

jaybeezey: Mi-5: s2s2s2: Judge Nelson likes is slow. FACT

This meme is BEYOND tired.  I would suggest something else, as this, to me, has descended itself to threadshiatting.

Mi-5 doesn't like the "Fact" meme and considers it threadshiatting: FACT


heh.
 
2013-07-11 11:16:33 AM  

The Muthaship: heili skrimsli: Are you hiding in my office?

I work for the NSA.


Outside of the NSA i am surprised one of those hacker groups has not tried to get all of the states and judges emails just to see if there is some massive conspiracy
 
2013-07-11 11:16:39 AM  

Phinn: My question is different -- If a defendant successfully asserts self-defense, and he's facing both murder and manslaughter charges, does self-defense negate both of those charges?


Yes.

If he's found to have killed in self defense, it is a justified homicide so no manslaughter either.
 
2013-07-11 11:16:49 AM  

A Whole Gopher Village: I think the real problem here is the stupid Stand Your Ground law that Florida politicians enacted. Both of the parties involved were stupid hot heads that caused this scenario to evolve into what it is now, but because of the stupid law there is to much grey area to have a reasonable conclusion. More than likely, because of this murky law, Zimmerman will walk.

/Really couldn't care either way.
//Florida residents brought this on themselves by electing in the law makers behind the law.
///When the riots start, lets just hope there will be nothing left of the state shaped like the male member.


Welcome to six months ago when they determined that law did not apply...at all.
 
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