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(CBS News)   This is it folks, your last Zimmerman thread as closing arguments start today and....who am I kidding? We're gonna have these threads everyday until Zimmerman's been dead for six years   (cbsnews.com) divider line 2719
    More: Interesting, jury instructions, forensic pathologists, murderers, right of self-defense  
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2505 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jul 2013 at 9:23 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-11 11:02:19 AM

Romeo_Santana: "Im sorry. As he was bashing my head into the concrete, I must have forgotten to ask his age."

In order to get "child abuse" they have to prove that GZ knew TM was under 18. That will be impossible to do. It's a stall tactic by the prosecution.


and isn't his corpse older than that now?
 
2013-07-11 11:02:19 AM

The Muthaship: Prepare for an hour of the State's closing to be about the jury's duty to follow the judge's instructions to the letter even if they disagree with them.

That is after they get the judge to gut the instructions in the State's favor.


Which is funny when you consider the legal precedent  of jury nullification.
 
2013-07-11 11:02:21 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-11 11:02:37 AM
This case is going to oepn a floodgate when it comes to future court cases citing the ZImmerman trial during all the sidebars
 
2013-07-11 11:03:04 AM
bring back celebrity death match for this trial i29.tinypic.com
 
2013-07-11 11:03:20 AM
Wow, did she just agree with the defense?
 
2013-07-11 11:03:22 AM
She just ruled for the defense. LOL. She's slippery this one.
 
2013-07-11 11:04:02 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: Also, if he called Precious instead of the police or a male friend to help him out when he saw this creepy ass cracker, how scared could he have been?


Yeah, because minorities have such good experiences calling the cops. it's not like the cops would hassle him or anything.
 
2013-07-11 11:04:02 AM

libranoelrose: Why didn't he have the right to stand his ground?


From what?
 
2013-07-11 11:04:04 AM

The Muthaship: WillofJ2: what is JOA?

Judgment of Acquittal?

Just guessing, not watching.


Yup, gotcha
 
2013-07-11 11:04:06 AM
I got a question:  I could have sworn that, when the HOA president guy was testifying, that one of the talking heads mentioned that the Martin family was suing the HOA, since Zimmerman was head of the 'neighborhood watch at the time of the shooting, and they assert he was acting on behalf of the HOA

Is that right?
 
2013-07-11 11:04:06 AM

Facetious_Speciest: Hobodeluxe

if Trayvon had time to get home does it not stand to reason that George had more than enough time to get back to his truck? He said he walked over to the next street( to get an address) . then back to his truck, fiddled with his flashlight trying to get it to work while at his truck then went back out, didn't see anything and was on his way to the truck for the 2nd time when Trayvon jumped out of the bushes (that weren't there) and attacked him.

I would say it does stand to reason. They both could have withdrawn. They didn't.

And by the by, you obviously missed where the police pointed out the bushes in question. In court. With photos.


but those small hedges were down the alley from where Zimmerman said he was attacked. Zimmerman later changed his story to Trayvon jumped out of the darkness once the investigator asked him where are the bushes?
 
2013-07-11 11:04:14 AM

indylaw: Southern100: Keep in mind if they find him guilty of ANYTHING, even Child Abuse, that's going to open him up to civil lawsuits by TMs family. Only an acquittal on all charges will shield him

Acquittal doesn't shield him. Civil suits have a lower burden of proof. OJ Simpson still lost on his wrongful death suit after he was acquitted of murder.


Not in Florida. Florida has different rules on Civil suits than California does.
 
2013-07-11 11:04:39 AM

Carth: The Muthaship: Prepare for an hour of the State's closing to be about the jury's duty to follow the judge's instructions to the letter even if they disagree with them.

That is after they get the judge to gut the instructions in the State's favor.

Which is funny when you consider the legal precedent  of jury nullification.


Such exists, but it is expressly forbidden for the defense to argue for such.
 
2013-07-11 11:04:46 AM

Carth: The Muthaship: Prepare for an hour of the State's closing to be about the jury's duty to follow the judge's instructions to the letter even if they disagree with them.

That is after they get the judge to gut the instructions in the State's favor.

Which is funny when you consider the legal precedent  of jury nullification.


Judges will tell you juries have absolutely no right to engage in the practice of judging the law.
 
2013-07-11 11:05:14 AM
Damn grammar nazis leading to appeals
 
2013-07-11 11:05:25 AM

Hobodeluxe: if Trayvon had time to get home does it not stand to reason that George had more than enough time to get back to his truck? He said he walked over to the next street( to get an address) . then back to his truck, fiddled with his flashlight trying to get it to work while at his truck then went back out, didn't see anything and was on his way to the truck for the 2nd time when Trayvon jumped out of the bushes (that weren't there) and attacked him.


Zimmerman stayed in the same general area.  Martin went out of sight and then returned, meaning he is the aggressor.  How do you not get this by now?
 
2013-07-11 11:05:39 AM
She IS a Nazi. Grammar, that is.
 
2013-07-11 11:05:59 AM

fredklein: Others would have you believe that Trayvon, who was running away, suddenly did a psychological 180 and turned to attack. This makes no sense.


It makes perfect sense. Happens all the time in pursuit cases: you realize that you can't shake your pursuer, so you turn and fight.

Others would have you believe that Zimmerman, who was chasing Trayvon this whole time, suddenly became completely passive when meeting Trayvon. This makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Not all pursuers are looking for a melee: in fact, most aren't.

Some would have you believe that Zimmerman, who has since changed his story several times, and lied to the court regarding money for bail, it telling the absolute truth about what happened. This makes no sense.

It harms his credibility severely, but it doesn't mean the situation he outlined makes no sense.

"Once a liar, always a liar" simply isn't a valid way to go about this, especially since no one is calling Zimmerman stupid (though he acted foolishly when he pursued Martin). And even if Zimmerman himself if stupid, his defense team is not.

Any half-decent liar will tell you that you always, always tell as much of the truth as you possibly can. That way you can point to the truths you've told when people start checking you out, in the hope of satisfying them before they get to the stuff that won't stand up to scrutiny. It also means that when people start to simply dismiss everything you say as a lie -you know, like you're doing- you can construct a defense around the truths you've told, and point to their truth to uphold your defense.

Even if Zimmerman is lying about some details of this, it's still in his interest to tell as much of the truth as possible. That means you've got to either assume he's telling the truth on every point, or prove the points where he's not. You're doing neither.
 
2013-07-11 11:06:00 AM

heili skrimsli: Judges will tell you juries have absolutely no right to engage in the practice of judging the law.


And I agree.  I just wonder what version of the law they will be presented with in this case.
 
2013-07-11 11:06:04 AM

Thunderpipes: Wow, did she just agree with the defense?


Finally! A break in the clouds. The jury might actually get rational instructions and be able to review the evidence.
 
2013-07-11 11:06:09 AM

heili skrimsli: Boojum2k: Thunderpipes: Baldie is stomping the prosecution's push for Zimmerman proviking Tray. Stomping MMA style. Judge will probably not care.

And prosecutor is responding with "babble babble bullshiat you know your orders babble babble babble"

Also that carrying a concealed firearm in accordance with the law is the threat of force.


Clearly, there was no threat or likelihood of force.
 
2013-07-11 11:06:11 AM

fredklein: tenpoundsofcheese: Also, if he called Precious instead of the police or a male friend to help him out when he saw this creepy ass cracker, how scared could he have been?

Yeah, because minorities have such good experiences calling the cops. it's not like the cops would hassle him or anything.


Trayvon thought George had given up the chase once he ran around the building.
 
2013-07-11 11:06:26 AM
The provocation instruction is out.

See, this is actual law -- following someone at a distance is NOT PROVOCATION of the use of force against yourself.

How many electrons have been wasted here, arguing that Zimmerman brought the beating on himself by provoking force against himself?
 
2013-07-11 11:06:36 AM

heili skrimsli: Carth: The Muthaship: Prepare for an hour of the State's closing to be about the jury's duty to follow the judge's instructions to the letter even if they disagree with them.

That is after they get the judge to gut the instructions in the State's favor.

Which is funny when you consider the legal precedent  of jury nullification.

Judges will tell you juries have absolutely no right to engage in the practice of judging the law.


Hah.  Indiana gives juries that specific right.  Our constitution allows jury nullification.  You won't find a judge giving it as an instruction though.

,

Illegal comma.
 
2013-07-11 11:06:43 AM
From what I've gathered from following the trial, the prosecution is going to have a difficult time proving second degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt.  They should have gone for manslaughter...that would have been an easier case to prove.
 
2013-07-11 11:06:55 AM

BeatrixK: I got a question:  I could have sworn that, when the HOA president guy was testifying, that one of the talking heads mentioned that the Martin family was suing the HOA, since Zimmerman was head of the 'neighborhood watch at the time of the shooting, and they assert he was acting on behalf of the HOA

Is that right?


HOA has already settled the case for a rumored $1,000,000+
 
2013-07-11 11:06:56 AM
I can't be the only one that hopes no matter what happens there will be more shootings so we can do this all over again in 6 months.
 
2013-07-11 11:07:01 AM
The judge is asking Don West to show where in the law books it says that you can actually follow someone on foot or by car. What the faaaark.


PROVE TO ME ITS LEGAL
'Well it's not in the law books because it's lawful behavior'
OVERRULED
 
2013-07-11 11:07:09 AM
If the comma doesn't fit, you must acquit.
 
2013-07-11 11:07:34 AM
Hobodeluxe

but those small hedges were down the alley from where Zimmerman said he was attacked. Zimmerman later changed his story to Trayvon jumped out of the darkness once the investigator asked him where are the bushes?

No. There are hedges running along the end of both building blocks, and every unit has another hedge behind it that conceals its air-conditioning unit. That puts four separate concealing hedges within twenty feet of the T.
 
2013-07-11 11:07:53 AM

BeatrixK: I got a question:  I could have sworn that, when the HOA president guy was testifying, that one of the talking heads mentioned that the Martin family was suing the HOA, since Zimmerman was head of the 'neighborhood watch at the time of the shooting, and they assert he was acting on behalf of the HOA

Is that right?


That seems like a reasonable legal strategy.  If somebody is working on behalf of an organization with deeper pockets than the person themselves, it makes sense to sue to the organization as well as the individual.  Of course, this requires the "Neighborhood Watch" to actually be part of the HOA.
 
2013-07-11 11:07:56 AM
What we're missing here is LET the jury hear or consider the child abuse / felony murder stuff.  It just might highlight for the jury how ridiculous this all is.
 
2013-07-11 11:07:59 AM

Boojum2k: Thunderpipes: Wow, did she just agree with the defense?

Finally! A break in the clouds. The jury might actually get rational instructions and be able to review the evidence.


She'll make up for it by including the 3rd degree murder by reason of felony child abuse.
 
2013-07-11 11:08:04 AM
This just in.. If someone jumps you from behind, they have the right to kill you. You DO NOT have the right to defend yourself in any way or you face life in prison.

Enjoy your beatdowns.
 
2013-07-11 11:08:16 AM

s2s2s2: Judge Nelson likes is slow. FACT


This meme is BEYOND tired.  I would suggest something else, as this, to me, has descended itself to threadshiatting.
 
2013-07-11 11:08:17 AM
So after Zimmerman walks...does anyone else think his life is ruined? Where will he get a job? He's not going to be able to live this down without moving to another country.
 
2013-07-11 11:08:24 AM
I am last Zimmerman thread?  Well, f' you, subby, cause
i141.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-11 11:08:30 AM

fredklein: tenpoundsofcheese: Also, if he called Precious instead of the police or a male friend to help him out when he saw this creepy ass cracker, how scared could he have been?

Yeah, because minorities have such good experiences calling the cops. it's not like the cops would hassle him or anything.


According to Dave Chappelle, black people don't talk to the cops when they are high. It's a waste of weed.
 
2013-07-11 11:08:33 AM
I would ask this judge to please show me where it says that it's legal for a man to masturbate in the confines of his own domicile while watching pornography.

Wait, no law specifies that? Then I would ask that please every single male in America be arrested and put on the sex offenders' registry.
 
2013-07-11 11:09:19 AM
Tatsuma

PROVE TO ME ITS LEGAL
'Well it's not in the law books because it's lawful behavior'
OVERRULED


This. How weird.

"SHOW ME WHERE THE LAW SAYS YOU CAN WEAR UNDERWEAR!"

"Uh, it doesn't, there's simply no law against it..."
 
2013-07-11 11:09:19 AM

airsupport: Darth_Lukecash:  Probably because he had that happy warm gun toting superiority that comes with the second amendment.

I gotta be honest, Darth, I never realized what a histrionic, intolerant, judgmental reactionary you are.  Up until this thread you seemed to have a good head on your shoulders and I enjoyed your posts.  I am sorry I misjudged you.


I love the apology.  It makes this a very polite atmosphere.
 
2013-07-11 11:09:39 AM
Motherfarking miscarriage of justice. 'Show me where this perfectly legal behavior is codified as legal'?

'Armed with a pack of skittles' FARK YOU.
 
2013-07-11 11:09:43 AM

Tatsuma: The judge is asking Don West to show where in the law books it says that you can actually follow someone on foot or by car. What the faaaark.


PROVE TO ME ITS LEGAL
'Well it's not in the law books because it's lawful behavior'
OVERRULED


The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the State, are reserved to the State respectively, or to the people.

Let's see her overrule that.  Oh who am I kidding, she's clearly willing to go to any length to get a conviction fo rthe prosecution.
 
2013-07-11 11:10:10 AM

slayer199: From what I've gathered from following the trial, the prosecution is going to have a difficult time proving second degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt.  They should have gone for manslaughter...that would have been an easier case to prove.


Don't worry, today has been good, they tacked on quite a few new possibilities for the jury to consider. Manslaughter, child abuse, jaywalking, impersonating an astronaut, illegal parking, dirty sock drawer and a few others I may have missed.
 
2013-07-11 11:10:13 AM

libranoelrose: PC LOAD LETTER: s2s2s2: PC LOAD LETTER: Agreed, but if one thinks some white dude is stalking you because you are black, why would you let them know where you live? TM should have just hid until GZ went away. GZ should have stayed in his damn car.

So we agree he could have gotten home, well before GZ would have seen him, and then gone back out and waited to give him his address when he finally went out to get sammich makings? Dafuq you smoking PC?

Jesus, do I have to spell it out: you are being followed by a guy you think is out to get you. You are a block away from your home. Do you run home and take a chance that the pursuer is going to see where you live?

I don't agree with the bolded part. Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't take a chance I'd be seen. And it does depend at what point he would have ran, which would have depended at what point he would have been spooked, and in addition, depends on what GZ's further reactions would have been, specifically if he would follow him.

What's with all this running talk?

Why didn't he have the right to stand his ground?


GZ had a concealed holster and a jacket on. It's unlikely TM would have seen the gun (though there's not a lot of detail on what happened here). SYG's an idiotic law on all levels. TM would have needed to be incapable of running away at all. Confronting a pursuer isn't covered by SYG, but it certainly is good street smarts in many cases. In TM's mind, it's likely he thought this was one of those cases. We all know that if TM killed GZ, he would be in prison for murder right now.
 
2013-07-11 11:10:15 AM
I'm glad they added child abuse but what about littering? Leaving a dead negro in
the street like that is just wrong.
 
2013-07-11 11:10:27 AM

chewielouie: The big mistake the defense made was not having at least one man on the jury. There's gonna be a lot of emotional and possibly irrational decision making in the jury room, and a man would have helped to keep the jury focused on the facts and make logical conclusions.


Perfect Troll! 10!!!!
 
2013-07-11 11:10:40 AM

Facetious_Speciest: Hobodeluxe

if Trayvon had time to get home does it not stand to reason that George had more than enough time to get back to his truck? He said he walked over to the next street( to get an address) . then back to his truck, fiddled with his flashlight trying to get it to work while at his truck then went back out, didn't see anything and was on his way to the truck for the 2nd time when Trayvon jumped out of the bushes (that weren't there) and attacked him.

I would say it does stand to reason. They both could have withdrawn. They didn't.

And by the by, you obviously missed where the police pointed out the bushes in question. In court. With photos.


Oh no, those pushes were too short to hide behind! Trayvon Martin had never heard of ducking. FACT

/snert
//also it was so dark outside the witness couldn't see color.  I believe its reasonable to believe someone emerging from the shadows may appear as though they're emerging from shrubbery.
 
2013-07-11 11:10:42 AM

Facetious_Speciest: Tatsuma

PROVE TO ME ITS LEGAL
'Well it's not in the law books because it's lawful behavior'
OVERRULED

This. How weird.

"SHOW ME WHERE THE LAW SAYS YOU CAN WEAR UNDERWEAR!"

"Uh, it doesn't, there's simply no law against it..."


It's the "Show me where it tells you where the mess hall is in the manual, Marine." angle from A Few Good Men.
 
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