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(CBS News)   This is it folks, your last Zimmerman thread as closing arguments start today and....who am I kidding? We're gonna have these threads everyday until Zimmerman's been dead for six years   (cbsnews.com) divider line 2717
    More: Interesting, jury instructions, forensic pathologists, murderers, right of self-defense  
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2507 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jul 2013 at 9:23 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-11 10:52:18 AM

phenn: heili skrimsli: Tatsuma: I'm going farking insane I HATE that judge.

She is now trying to argue that justifiable deadly force only applies to being in your own home?

Why is the judge arguing anything?


Judicial activism?
 
2013-07-11 10:52:31 AM

diabloninja: "I don't want to hear the word 'trick' again."

lol umadbro


Stop pointing out our underhanded tricks on national TV!
 
2013-07-11 10:52:33 AM
How many times can the state say multiple things could have happened as testified by out witnesses and our investigators and that they dont know and still argue their case
 
2013-07-11 10:52:41 AM

tripleseven: People are well within their rights to follow someone.


They are. It has nothing to do with me driving a windowed van around a school.
 
2013-07-11 10:53:30 AM

WillofJ2: I_C_Weener: If I were the Judge, I'd listen to both of them and then say, "I find you both to be pissing me off.  I'm using the form instructions...period.  You know.  The ones that have been approved over and over.  If you have to create new ones, I'm denying them.  Appeal me."

Seems odd to me that its not standard, being its law and all that


The law is meant to be organic and new facts bring up the need to tweak the instructions sometimes.  But these don't seem to be tweaks.  They seem to be re-writing the instructions.

And instructions tend to be re-statements of the law anyway, not the statute itself.  The farther you get from the statute, the harder it should be to use them though.

I've not done a jury trial so I may be off here.  I find this strange though.
 
2013-07-11 10:53:42 AM

Tatsuma: I'm going farking insane I HATE that judge.


she's being fair. West is all like "you sprang this on us" "this is totally unexpected" when he knows damn well that these lesser charges were going to be asked for. He knows what they could and couldn't try to charge. And now it's the state's problem they weren't prepared?  bullshiat. this is all theatre. they knew. they have counter arguments ready. they just want to appear oppressed
 
2013-07-11 10:54:08 AM
Maybe this has been metioned before, but why is this trial even news. I don't get the infactuation with this trial.
 
2013-07-11 10:54:31 AM

fredklein: My argument is the straight line.


The reason the "straight line" is irrelevant is because this is a murder trial, not a "guess what happened contest."
 
2013-07-11 10:54:33 AM

fredklein: Others would have you believe that Trayvon, who was running away, suddenly did a psychological 180 and turned to attack.


Like the prosecution witness who was on the phone with Martin testified to?
 
2013-07-11 10:54:42 AM
Can the defense point out that the prosecution wants to throw all those additional charges in so they can have "at least some kind of conviction"?  It seems pretty blatant that they want to get him on something as they have no shot of murder 2.
 
2013-07-11 10:55:01 AM

tripleseven: It would depend on context concerning the legality of following someone, but if you are stating that being followed at night by a stranger in a car, and on foot doesn't pose a threat or a basic human emotional response of fear or danger, then you are totally lying to yourself.


It would certainly be suspicious.  But then I guess if someone was driving slow through your neighborhood and you didn't realize they were just looking for an address would be grounds do to what to them?
 
2013-07-11 10:55:01 AM

The Haberdasher: Maybe this has been metioned before, but why is this trial even news. I don't get the infactuation with this trial.


You think you're smarter than our president?

Well, do ya?
 
2013-07-11 10:55:01 AM

I_C_Weener: WillofJ2: I_C_Weener: If I were the Judge, I'd listen to both of them and then say, "I find you both to be pissing me off.  I'm using the form instructions...period.  You know.  The ones that have been approved over and over.  If you have to create new ones, I'm denying them.  Appeal me."

Seems odd to me that its not standard, being its law and all that

The law is meant to be organic and new facts bring up the need to tweak the instructions sometimes.  But these don't seem to be tweaks.  They seem to be re-writing the instructions.

And instructions tend to be re-statements of the law anyway, not the statute itself.  The farther you get from the statute, the harder it should be to use them though.

I've not done a jury trial so I may be off here.  I find this strange though.


I see
 
2013-07-11 10:55:09 AM

The Haberdasher: Maybe this has been metioned before, but why is this trial even news. I don't get the infactuation with this trial.


The news media, in an attempt to sensationalize this, started a farking race war. That may be the only reason Zimmerman was ever arrested.
 
2013-07-11 10:55:19 AM

AngryDragon: Elegy: Now the state is trying to keep out self-defense and justifiable use of deadly force as an instruction.

Isn't that what the whole goddamn case is about?!



The confusion is that there are two self-defense statutes in Florida:  776.012, and 782.02.

776.012 is what controls this case.  It says that self-defense is justified when you're in imminent fear of serious injury or death.

782.02 is applicable to situations where an aggressor is in your house or dwelling.

The State is trying to include the instruction about Houses and Dwellings.  It's totally out of place.

And, the judge is too FARKING STUPID to understand the basic rules here.
 
2013-07-11 10:55:20 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Pretty sure folks know were I stand on Zimmerman's guilt, but the judge counting his lawyers to make the argument that they should be able to study case law quickly in a murder trial is farking ridiculous.


Slowly but surely we are all united...

by our disdain for this criminally incompetent judge.
 
2013-07-11 10:55:37 AM

Carth: MFAWG: AngryDragon: Elegy: Now the state is trying to keep out self-defense and justifiable use of deadly force as an instruction.

Isn't that what the whole goddamn case is about?!

No, it's about being able to walk the streets safely at night.

Really.

Agreed. It is terrifying that you can't report a suspicious person in your own neighborhood without having to worry about getting attacked and being forced to fight for your life.


Oh, I think he was able to report without any problems. It's when he took his loaded gun in pursuit of the "suspicious" person that things went south. Old South.
 
2013-07-11 10:55:46 AM

Tatsuma: I'm going farking insane I HATE that judge.


WTF happened to you? You used to be this articulate, thoughtful, well-reasoned guy, even if I didn't always agree with you. This case has reduced you to, well, this.

Now, you're the polar opposite of the people screaming that Zimmerman hunted and killed some poor, innocent kid. And you're just as ridiculous.
 
2013-07-11 10:55:48 AM

The Haberdasher: Maybe this has been metioned before, but why is this trial even news. I don't get the infactuation with this trial.


It isn't news. It's reality-show entertainment. Think of the judge as honey boo-boo's mom.
 
2013-07-11 10:55:56 AM

The Haberdasher: Maybe this has been metioned before, but why is this trial even news. I don't get the infactuation with this trial.


Because you had the President of the United States go on national TV and comment on it  then and use federal investigators look into the investigation.
 
2013-07-11 10:56:09 AM

fredklein: Zimmerman claims he was in fear of his life, but his wounds were minor. I think I have literally cut myself shaving worse than that.


Who says he needed any wounds at all to have been in fear for his life?
 
2013-07-11 10:56:27 AM
Don west is trying to argue logic, what in idiot
 
2013-07-11 10:56:30 AM

fredklein: Others would have you believe that Trayvon, who was running skipping away around, suddenly did a psychological 180 decided to confront the creepy ass cracka and turned to attack. This makes no sense. Others would have you believe that Zimmerman, who was chasing  observingTrayvon this whole time, suddenly became wascompletely passive when meeting Trayvon. This makes no sense. Some would have you believe that Zimmerman, who has since changed his story several times kept his story fairly consistent, and lied to the court (I'll admit, I didn't follow this, so no idea if it's true, or if it is why it's relevant) regarding money for bail, it is telling the absolute truth about what happened.  has established that there is reasonable doubt that he committed a crimeThis makes no sense. That's how trials work


Did I miss anything?
 
2013-07-11 10:56:47 AM

Hobodeluxe: Tatsuma: I'm going farking insane I HATE that judge.

she's being fair. West is all like "you sprang this on us" "this is totally unexpected" when he knows damn well that these lesser charges were going to be asked for. He knows what they could and couldn't try to charge. And now it's the state's problem they weren't prepared?  bullshiat. this is all theatre. they knew. they have counter arguments ready. they just want to appear oppressed


If there's no jury in the room what would grandstanding server to do except risk him getting found in contempt?
 
2013-07-11 10:57:02 AM

WillofJ2: Don west is trying to argue logic, what in idiot


"an" damn touch screens
 
2013-07-11 10:57:18 AM

fredklein: Zimmerman claims he was in fear of his life, but his wounds were minor. I think I have literally cut myself shaving worse than that.


when you shave your nose you LITERALLY wind up with massive swelling like that?
you LITERALLY wind up with bruises under your eyes and back of head when you shave?

you aren't even trying anymore.

picture of cat with paw on hand on keyboard.
 
2013-07-11 10:57:22 AM

Romeo_Santana: "Im sorry. As he was bashing my head into the concrete, I must have forgotten to ask his age."

In order to get "child abuse" they have to prove that GZ knew TM was under 18. That will be impossible to do. It's a stall tactic by the prosecution.


Does it actually work that way?  It doesn't work that way in statutory rape cases.
 
2013-07-11 10:58:13 AM

Tatsuma: And now they want to remove the parts about aggravated assault and how its ok to use deadly force in self defense from the instructions??

fark the state, fark the judge, what the fark.


I don't understand what you just wrote.
 
2013-07-11 10:58:14 AM
Treyvon Martin actually died from shaken baby syndrome before being shot in heart. Fact.
 
2013-07-11 10:58:18 AM
Darth_Lukecash:  Probably because he had that happy warm gun toting superiority that comes with the second amendment.

I gotta be honest, Darth, I never realized what a histrionic, intolerant, judgmental reactionary you are.  Up until this thread you seemed to have a good head on your shoulders and I enjoyed your posts.  I am sorry I misjudged you.
 
2013-07-11 10:58:24 AM

fredklein: My argument is the straight line


LOL. Then prove it. Without all that scribbly speculation you keep offering.
 
2013-07-11 10:58:25 AM
Baldie is stomping the prosecution's push for Zimmerman proviking Tray. Stomping MMA style. Judge will probably not care.
 
2013-07-11 10:58:49 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-11 10:59:12 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Pretty sure folks know were I stand on Zimmerman's guilt, but the judge counting his lawyers to make the argument that they should be able to study case law quickly in a murder trial is farking ridiculous.


The judge saying, "I know you've got a room in the courthouse filled with people working on this" is strange too.  What does that matter?  Is she mad that he actually tried to present a defense?

And the third possible verdict is strange too.  If they'd charged him originally with that, or made it clear during the trial, maybe.  But they surprised them with it after close of evidence.

That said, I can see a verdict from murder to manslaughter to acquittal.  Add in the child abuse/death and I can definitely see that verdict by confusion.
 
2013-07-11 10:59:19 AM
Hobodeluxe

if Trayvon had time to get home does it not stand to reason that George had more than enough time to get back to his truck? He said he walked over to the next street( to get an address) . then back to his truck, fiddled with his flashlight trying to get it to work while at his truck then went back out, didn't see anything and was on his way to the truck for the 2nd time when Trayvon jumped out of the bushes (that weren't there) and attacked him.

I would say it does stand to reason. They both could have withdrawn. They didn't.

And by the by, you obviously missed where the police pointed out the bushes in question. In court. With photos.
 
2013-07-11 11:00:09 AM

AngryDragon: Hobodeluxe: Tatsuma: I'm going farking insane I HATE that judge.

she's being fair. West is all like "you sprang this on us" "this is totally unexpected" when he knows damn well that these lesser charges were going to be asked for. He knows what they could and couldn't try to charge. And now it's the state's problem they weren't prepared?  bullshiat. this is all theatre. they knew. they have counter arguments ready. they just want to appear oppressed

If there's no jury in the room what would grandstanding server to do except risk him getting found in contempt?


it's more for public consumption and possibly for an appeal if necessary
 
2013-07-11 11:00:09 AM
what is JOA?
 
2013-07-11 11:00:12 AM

NightOwl2255: WTF happened to you? You used to be this articulate, thoughtful, well-reasoned guy, even if I didn't always agree with you. This case has reduced you to, well, this.

Now, you're the polar opposite of the people screaming that Zimmerman hunted and killed some poor, innocent kid. And you're just as ridiculous.


I am expressing my frustration with the judge, I am not arguing anything. She has been consistently using the bench to follow her agenda, making completely obnoxious decisions based on her own views and not the law.

This whole trial is a gross miscarriage of justice and will become a textbook example of perverted justice and everything wrong with the justice system today.
 
2013-07-11 11:00:13 AM

Thunderpipes: Baldie is stomping the prosecution's push for Zimmerman proviking Tray. Stomping MMA style. Judge will probably not care.


And prosecutor is responding with "babble babble bullshiat you know your orders babble babble babble"
 
2013-07-11 11:00:35 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: s2s2s2: PC LOAD LETTER: Agreed, but if one thinks some white dude is stalking you because you are black, why would you let them know where you live? TM should have just hid until GZ went away. GZ should have stayed in his damn car.

So we agree he could have gotten home, well before GZ would have seen him, and then gone back out and waited to give him his address when he finally went out to get sammich makings? Dafuq you smoking PC?

Jesus, do I have to spell it out: you are being followed by a guy you think is out to get you. You are a block away from your home. Do you run home and take a chance that the pursuer is going to see where you live?

I don't agree with the bolded part. Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't take a chance I'd be seen. And it does depend at what point he would have ran, which would have depended at what point he would have been spooked, and in addition, depends on what GZ's further reactions would have been, specifically if he would follow him.


What's with all this running talk?

Why didn't he have the right to stand his ground?
 
2013-07-11 11:00:45 AM

Millennium: fredklein: Unless you can read dead people's minds, you don't know if Trayvon knew about the gun.

No, but the weapon was concealed.


And no one can ever see the bulge the gun makes in clothing, right? There's absolutely no way they the gun could be seen when the wearer adjusts his clothing. And, of course, we know for a fact that Zimmerman didn't pull the gun before he said he did, Right?

When the facts side with you, pound the facts.
When the law sides with you, pound the law.
When neither sides with you, pound the table.


Sounds like ad hoc logic to me. The kind y'all use. I prefer to just look at (not "pound") the facts, and see where they lead.
 
2013-07-11 11:00:59 AM
Prepare for an hour of the State's closing to be about the jury's duty to follow the judge's instructions to the letter even if they disagree with them.

That is after they get the judge to gut the instructions in the State's favor.
 
2013-07-11 11:01:01 AM

BoazMedic: Treyvon Martin actually died from shaken baby syndrome before being shot in heart. Fact.


Well done.
 
2013-07-11 11:01:03 AM

Cletus C.: Carth: MFAWG: AngryDragon: Elegy: Now the state is trying to keep out self-defense and justifiable use of deadly force as an instruction.

Isn't that what the whole goddamn case is about?!

No, it's about being able to walk the streets safely at night.

Really.

Agreed. It is terrifying that you can't report a suspicious person in your own neighborhood without having to worry about getting attacked and being forced to fight for your life.

Oh, I think he was able to report without any problems. It's when he took his loaded gun in pursuit of the "suspicious" person that things went south. Old South.


So CCW holders lose the right to follow and report on suspicious behavior? I'm still not sure at what point Zimmerman broke the law.
 
2013-07-11 11:01:11 AM

probesport: I don't believe in Zimmerman.


www.biography.com
Sees what you did there.
 
2013-07-11 11:01:11 AM
I'm going farking insane I HATE that judge.

hobodelux
she's being fair. West is all like "you sprang this on us" "this is totally unexpected" when he knows damn well that these lesser charges were going to be asked for. He knows what they could and couldn't try to charge. And now it's the state's problem they weren't prepared?  bullshiat. this is all theatre. they knew. they have counter arguments ready. they just want to appear oppressed


I'd agree - we've been speculating about lesser charges in here for weeks AND have had time to come up with riot contingency plans, too
 
2013-07-11 11:01:38 AM

WillofJ2: what is JOA?


Judgment of Acquittal?

Just guessing, not watching.
 
2013-07-11 11:01:46 AM
Lol, the state is actually arguing that simply carrying a firearm is a threat of force?  BS, pure 100% Columbian BS.
 
2013-07-11 11:01:55 AM

Boojum2k: Thunderpipes: Baldie is stomping the prosecution's push for Zimmerman proviking Tray. Stomping MMA style. Judge will probably not care.

And prosecutor is responding with "babble babble bullshiat you know your orders babble babble babble"


Also that carrying a concealed firearm in accordance with the law is the threat of force.
 
2013-07-11 11:01:59 AM

Hobodeluxe: if Trayvon had time to get home does it not stand to reason that George had more than enough time to get back to his truck? He said he walked over to the next street( to get an address)


Yeah, let's stick to the only things we really know. Trayvon was beating George up. George was begging for help. Trayvon didn't stop. Trayvon got shot.

Not Guilty, NEXT CASE!
 
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