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(CBS News)   This is it folks, your last Zimmerman thread as closing arguments start today and....who am I kidding? We're gonna have these threads everyday until Zimmerman's been dead for six years   (cbsnews.com) divider line 2717
    More: Interesting, jury instructions, forensic pathologists, murderers, right of self-defense  
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2517 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jul 2013 at 9:23 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-11 10:35:17 AM  

s2s2s2: Man she really wants to let this child abuse thing in. What a tard.


I agree with I_C_Weener, they should be charging him with 'littering' also.
 
2013-07-11 10:35:20 AM  

s2s2s2: Hobodeluxe: he was still on the path to his Father's apt

You sure about that?


yes it was just down that walkway. he made it about halfway then once the fight/struggle ensued it moved towards the "T" on the sidewalk. We know this because of the items found on the ground further down than the body static01.mediaite.com
 
2013-07-11 10:35:33 AM  

Tatsuma: TheDumbBlonde: We seem to be riding the same wave today. You should be afraid.

I think that speaks as to the complete righteousness or complete bullshiat of our position.


It's one or the other, Babe, Always go all in.
 
2013-07-11 10:36:18 AM  

AngryDragon: Tatsuma: He's going to be suing the shiat out of the state and rake in farking millions.


Don West: Child abuse. Really?

Holy shiat!  You guys aren't kidding?  They're trying to add a child abuse charge?


Felony Murder 3 because of Child Abuse. Or something. They're doing their best to get him on *something* by any way possible.

The appeal for this case should be hilarious.
 
2013-07-11 10:36:20 AM  

BraveNewCheneyWorld: An innocent man is being railroaded on national television.  Truly a sad day, and a nail in the coffin of the U.S.  The judge is giving the defense zero preparation time.


you sound soft on crime.
 
2013-07-11 10:36:27 AM  
t3.gstatic.com
 
2013-07-11 10:36:31 AM  

TheDumbBlonde: It's one or the other, Babe, Always go all in.


Yeah, completely righteous on this one


This is sooooooo farking bizarre.
 
2013-07-11 10:36:35 AM  

Treygreen13: tripleseven: It would depend on context concerning the legality of following someone, but if you are stating that being followed at night by a stranger in a car, and on foot doesn't pose a threat or a basic human emotional response of fear or danger, then you are totally lying to yourself.

Still not illegal.


Sure, I guess not.

But if you are so firm in your conviction, try this experiment:

Go buy a windowless van.

Paint "Safety Patrol" on it or something.

Wait around schools and follow the kids home.

When confronted by the police, explain to them you're doing nothing wrong, and as a "safety Patrol" member, you are just ensuring that the kids get home safe, or that they don't damage the neighborhood, you know how those kids like to get into trouble.


Good luck with that.
 
2013-07-11 10:36:36 AM  
whizbangthedirtfarmer:

Hyperbole much?  I've looked worse after a game of pickup basketball.  It COULD have been a vicious assault (if it is happening the way the alive guy is saying), but I didn't see anything extraordinary.


now if someone punches your wife in the nose to cause that swelling and bleeding, and then was grounding and pounding, hitting her head on the sidewalk, and causing the other bruises on her face, you would just say, "oh, that's okay.  that wasn't vicious.  I have had worse in a basketball game".

Good luck with that.
 
2013-07-11 10:36:49 AM  
Umm, I thought they couldn't add chargers at the end of a trial?
 
2013-07-11 10:36:51 AM  
Just to be clear, Child Abuse is not being charged. Child abuse cases were simply being cited to justify the third degree felony murder.
 
2013-07-11 10:37:29 AM  

tripleseven: Treygreen13: tripleseven: It would depend on context concerning the legality of following someone, but if you are stating that being followed at night by a stranger in a car, and on foot doesn't pose a threat or a basic human emotional response of fear or danger, then you are totally lying to yourself.

Still not illegal.

Sure, I guess not.

But if you are so firm in your conviction, try this experiment:

Go buy a windowless van.

Paint "Safety Patrol" on it or something.

Wait around schools and follow the kids home.

When confronted by the police, explain to them you're doing nothing wrong, and as a "safety Patrol" member, you are just ensuring that the kids get home safe, or that they don't damage the neighborhood, you know how those kids like to get into trouble.


Good luck with that.


Has nothing to do with this case. Zero.
 
2013-07-11 10:37:37 AM  

Tatsuma: Hahahaha holy farking shiat Don West just told the biatch to shut up. He was talking, she tried to say something and told her 'LET ME FINISH'


he's lucky she didn't get him for contempt yesterday over his continuous objection to the same ruling.
 
2013-07-11 10:37:43 AM  

NeoCortex42: Just to be clear, Child Abuse is not being charged. Child abuse cases were simply being cited to justify the third degree felony murder.


No, it is being added to the jury's instruction and it is being considered felony murder in the third degree as child abuse.
 
2013-07-11 10:38:16 AM  

Hobodeluxe: Nabb1: s2s2s2: Hobodeluxe: and trayvon had the right to defend himself from a perceived threat

What threat?

A creepy ass cracker was following him, so he felt so threatened, he called a friend instead of the police and decided not to continue on to his father's apartment.

he was still on the path to his Father's apt. and he thought he had lost Zimmerman. The phone call was ongoing. he had been talking to her all evening


So then you admit he was on the phone with her the entire time?  That would destroy your conclusion that Zimmerman "found" Trayvon hiding and forced the confrontation.  No person in their right mind would hide and still be talking to another on the phone (hint: she never said he whispered).  The obvious conclusion to draw from this is that TM initiated contact.  He spoke first and likely walked up to Zimmerman.  Just more evidence stacking up in favor of not guilty
 
2013-07-11 10:38:20 AM  

ChipNASA: "Your"    mutherfarkers!....not You ARE=You're

/can't believe I have to be the grammar nazi.


My wife and I don't correct other peoples grammar,
because, frankly, we're better than you people.
I also don't own a TeeVee and I use a non-ironic rotary phone
Pretty much King Sh*T of F*ck Island over here.

/amidoinitrite?
 
2013-07-11 10:38:27 AM  

Treygreen13: tripleseven: Treygreen13: tripleseven: It would depend on context concerning the legality of following someone, but if you are stating that being followed at night by a stranger in a car, and on foot doesn't pose a threat or a basic human emotional response of fear or danger, then you are totally lying to yourself.

Still not illegal.

Sure, I guess not.

But if you are so firm in your conviction, try this experiment:

Go buy a windowless van.

Paint "Safety Patrol" on it or something.

Wait around schools and follow the kids home.

When confronted by the police, explain to them you're doing nothing wrong, and as a "safety Patrol" member, you are just ensuring that the kids get home safe, or that they don't damage the neighborhood, you know how those kids like to get into trouble.


Good luck with that.

Has nothing to do with this case. Zero.


No, nothing at all, except you're making the same argument that simply following someone is not illegal, nor any cause for alarm.
 
2013-07-11 10:38:45 AM  

NeoCortex42: Just to be clear, Child Abuse is not being charged. Child abuse cases were simply being cited to justify the third degree felony murder.


Yes, I think we are clear. You understand why this still seems wildly inappropriate, though.
 
2013-07-11 10:38:48 AM  
And now they want to remove the parts about aggravated assault and how its ok to use deadly force in self defense from the instructions??

fark the state, fark the judge, what the fark.
 
2013-07-11 10:39:06 AM  

Tatsuma: 'If the Court will, we would like to add 'Ironically Wearing Sunglasses At Night' to the list of charges'


Hipsterism exists in a legal gray area in the State of Florida.
 
2013-07-11 10:39:11 AM  

Tatsuma: Hahahahahah

Don West: Just when I thought this case couldn't get more bizarre, the State is asking for the defendant being charged with child abuse'

He couldn't be facepalming harder right now.


That's lawyerspeak for 'That's retarded, sir.'
 
2013-07-11 10:39:16 AM  
It should have been negligent homicide.  Zimmerman's reckless conduct led to a deadly confrontation.  It's not self-defense if you go stalking after someone when you're armed (at least it shouldn't be), but I don't think he meant to kill him.
 
2013-07-11 10:39:26 AM  

fredklein: Unless you can read dead people's minds, you don't know if Trayvon knew about the gun.


No, but the weapon was concealed. Simple theory of mind states that all else being equal, Martin should not have known about it. This doesn't prove anything, but it establishes reasonable doubt, and since Zimmerman is the one on trial, the benefit of the doubt goes to him.

This is what it means to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. This is what it means that his guilt must be proven beyond reasonable doubt. This is how a modern justice system works, whether adversarial or inquisitorial (adversarial, in this case).

While you are technically correct that "Following someone is not a reason to assault them", you don't know what else happened.

No, but once again, Martin is not on trial: Zimmerman is. So all else being equal, Zimmerman gets the benefit of the doubt.

And, again, unless you have additional evidence, you don't know who assaulted who first. You only know what one person testified they heard.

Which is still more evidence than the other hypothesis.

Some people seem insistent that the facts fit their narrative, rather then making their narrative fit the facts.

And then there are those who simply repeat their narrative over and over, hoping to make it true.

When the facts side with you, pound the facts.
When the law sides with you, pound the law.
When neither sides with you, pound the table.
 
2013-07-11 10:39:38 AM  

Tatsuma: NeoCortex42: Just to be clear, Child Abuse is not being charged. Child abuse cases were simply being cited to justify the third degree felony murder.

No, it is being added to the jury's instruction and it is being considered felony murder in the third degree as child abuse.


Okay then.

I have no idea what the Fark is going on now.

I'll be surprised if the judge allows the several-hour recess for the defense to do case research. So has her schedule to keep, dammit.
 
2013-07-11 10:39:43 AM  
maleahjoi.com

Not just murder... CHILD ABUSE MURDER!
 
2013-07-11 10:39:44 AM  
"If that's what they want, that's what I'm going to do" - Judge DeeDeeDee referencing the prosecution

Pretty much sums up this trial, right there.
 
2013-07-11 10:39:45 AM  
No evidence whatsoever to support manslaughter. Anyone care to say why they think this is even possible?

If he gets manslaughter, will win easily on appeal.
 
2013-07-11 10:39:49 AM  

tripleseven: No, nothing at all, except you're making the same argument that simply following someone is not illegal, nor any cause for alarm.


Ok buddy.
 
2013-07-11 10:40:06 AM  

tripleseven: You'll never convince the Zimmerman cheerleaders.



What about us Due Process cheerleaders?

I have a simple question, and I hope you try to answer it honestly.

Do you believe that there is no reason, based on this evidence, to believe that Zimmerman acted in self-defense?  In other words, do you believe that self-defense is not at least one of the plausible hypotheses that could be true, in light of this evidence?
 
2013-07-11 10:40:07 AM  

Hobodeluxe: yes it was just down that walkway.


Really close, too. He had plenty of time to get there before George caught up with him. He also had plenty of time to get there before George ever left his house.
 
2013-07-11 10:40:16 AM  

Abuse Liability: Hobodeluxe: Nabb1: s2s2s2: Hobodeluxe: and trayvon had the right to defend himself from a perceived threat

What threat?

A creepy ass cracker was following him, so he felt so threatened, he called a friend instead of the police and decided not to continue on to his father's apartment.

he was still on the path to his Father's apt. and he thought he had lost Zimmerman. The phone call was ongoing. he had been talking to her all evening

So then you admit he was on the phone with her the entire time?  That would destroy your conclusion that Zimmerman "found" Trayvon hiding and forced the confrontation.  No person in their right mind would hide and still be talking to another on the phone (hint: she never said he whispered).  The obvious conclusion to draw from this is that TM initiated contact.  He spoke first and likely walked up to Zimmerman.  Just more evidence stacking up in favor of not guilty


I never made that claim that he was lying in wait for an ambush. Zimmerman did
 
2013-07-11 10:40:25 AM  

Nabb1: whizbangthedirtfarmer: Into the blue again: s2s2s2: whizbangthedirtfarmer: I've looked worse after a game of pickup basketball.

An assault can be vicious without inflicting grievous bodily harm.

Whiz, you played tackle basketballl too??? That game is rough.

An assualt can be VERY vicious and not leave exterior body harm. But if it is vicious there will damage to show for it.

Yes, it wasn't quite tackle basketball, as that is forbidden, but it was no foul basketball, so all sorts of chops and shoves were fair game.  I've left the game looking worse (and probably feeling worse) than Zimmerman looked in his pictures.

The difference being that you consented to subject yourself to that injury potential, unlike someone assaulting you.


Some would argue (and keep in mind I have little interest in the outcome), that an adult would leave the scene and wait for the police to show up.  If you start following, then you waive your right to self-defense, as you could have exempted yourself from the action.  It basically boils down to a matter of perspective: would Zimmerman have gotten a bloody nose if he had stayed in the car?

I am amused, though, that the defense is basically saying that the guy could only really defend himself with a gun, as he was a complete pansy otherwise.  It must give all of the people screaming GUN RIGHTS! in this case a warm and fuzzy feeling.

\but if he's found not guilty, then that's that.
 
2013-07-11 10:40:25 AM  
Tangent: if lawyers are disbarred, and priests are defrocked, what happens to judges? De-benched? Disrobed? (see Nekom's comment above)
 
2013-07-11 10:40:29 AM  

bborchar: It should have been negligent homicide.  Zimmerman's reckless conduct led to a deadly confrontation.  It's not self-defense if you go stalking after someone when you're armed (at least it shouldn't be), but I don't think he meant to kill him.


That word I do not think it means what you think it means.
 
2013-07-11 10:40:55 AM  

phenn: NeoCortex42: Just to be clear, Child Abuse is not being charged. Child abuse cases were simply being cited to justify the third degree felony murder.

Yes, I think we are clear. You understand why this still seems wildly inappropriate, though.


Because the idea that this event had any farking thing to do with child abuse is so far past ludicrous it's plaid?
 
2013-07-11 10:40:57 AM  
Yeah, it's not child abuse, it's third degree felony murder, the kind of murder that happens while you're committing a separate felony, i.e., the death occurred as a consequence of and while the defendant was engaged in the commission of [CRIME], the crime in this case being child abuse. Argh.
 
2013-07-11 10:41:14 AM  
Oh, what a day today will be!

/Sinatra for a touch of class
//Lyrics are oddly appropriate
 
2013-07-11 10:41:26 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-11 10:41:35 AM  

Treygreen13: tripleseven: It would depend on context concerning the legality of following someone, but if you are stating that being followed at night by a stranger in a car, and on foot doesn't pose a threat or a basic human emotional response of fear or danger, then you are totally lying to yourself.

Still not illegal.


It's not illegal to use fighting words either, but even the Supreme Court acknowledged that it can likely lead to violence. If I call someone a n***er and they beat the crap out of me, yeah, it was legal to call them that (in most jurisdictions), but you can actually lower the severity of the charge just based on that fact alone, since there was a mitigating circumstance.

I don't understand why it's so hard to see that TM had a good reason to believe that he was being racially targeted. I get why GZ thought that TM might be up to no good, though if you compare the two, TM had far more reason to believe what he thought that GZ did what he thought.
 
2013-07-11 10:41:40 AM  
Keep in mind if they find him guilty of ANYTHING, even Child Abuse, that's going to open him up to civil lawsuits by TMs family. Only an acquittal on all charges will shield him from civil lawsuits.
 
2013-07-11 10:41:47 AM  

NeoCortex42: Just to be clear, Child Abuse is not being charged. Child abuse cases were simply being cited to justify the third degree felony murder.


No.  They are saying that because a felony is needed to piggy back on to the death to call it a 3rd Degree Felony Murder.  They are saying that felony, not seperately charged but supported by the evidence (which is in dispute), is child abuse...plus the death.  So, like a shaken baby case that results in death can be 3rd Degree Murder....and....child abuse....that shooting a 17 year old is the same type of piggy backing.
 
2013-07-11 10:41:54 AM  
I don't know how you lawyers aren't pulling your hair out right now.
 
2013-07-11 10:41:58 AM  

tripleseven: Treygreen13: tripleseven: It would depend on context concerning the legality of following someone, but if you are stating that being followed at night by a stranger in a car, and on foot doesn't pose a threat or a basic human emotional response of fear or danger, then you are totally lying to yourself.

Still not illegal.

Sure, I guess not.

But if you are so firm in your conviction, try this experiment:

Go buy a windowless van.

Paint "Safety Patrol" on it or something.

Wait around schools and follow the kids home.

When confronted by the police, explain to them you're doing nothing wrong, and as a "safety Patrol" member, you are just ensuring that the kids get home safe, or that they don't damage the neighborhood, you know how those kids like to get into trouble.

Good luck with that.


The way it works is the police will check you out, determine if you are a threat, determine if they want you to continue to do that and possibly have a judge issue a restraining order for you to stop.

What they will not do is punch you in the nose, ground and pound and smash your head in the concrete several times.

Do you really not understand that?

I know there are people here who want to convict a Hispanic man no matter what the evidence says, but come on.
 
2013-07-11 10:42:21 AM  

s2s2s2: Hobodeluxe: yes it was just down that walkway.

Really close, too. He had plenty of time to get there before George caught up with him. He also had plenty of time to get there before George ever left his house.


Dawdling is now punishable by death.
 
2013-07-11 10:42:26 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: All he knew was a man was following him. Perhaps to rape him? To mug him? To give him a copy of Dianetics? All justified beatings in my book.

So why was Trayvon not allowed to stand his ground?


Because Zimmerman did not attack him, or even move to attack him. Following is creepy, but it does not let you hit first.
 
2013-07-11 10:42:31 AM  
"The state contends that Mr. Zimmerman has a three car garage with the twelve foot ceilings, and it ought to be a crime just to feel this good."
 
2013-07-11 10:42:47 AM  
whizbangthedirtfarmer

If you start following, then you waive your right to self-defense, as you could have exempted yourself from the action.

Until you seize power, this will remain only your opinion.
 
2013-07-11 10:42:59 AM  

Into the blue again: PiffMan420: Nabb1: kimwim: He's going to walk. Much as I don't want to see it, he's going to walk.

No one should get convicted of murder on evidence this thin.

The State did a piss poor job presenting their case. Zimmerman is going to be aquitted and we'll all get plenty of lulzy footage from the ensuing chimpouts and rioting.

There's going to be a lot of households with brand new Nikes, flat screen TV's and cases of Heineken when the verdict is read.

The internet is a good place for the racists to show their true colors? I mean if you weren't trying to be racist I don't know why you would choose this wording....


Or he did it for the same reason we all do

/diditforthelulz.jpg
 
2013-07-11 10:43:04 AM  
"I don't want to hear the word 'trick' again."

lol umadbro
 
2013-07-11 10:43:05 AM  

s2s2s2: Hobodeluxe: yes it was just down that walkway.

Really close, too. He had plenty of time to get there before George caught up with him. He also had plenty of time to get there before George ever left his house.


He was under no duty to run home as fast as possible. He thought george had went on. he was walking slowly talking to a friend on the phone.
is it against the law to do that?
 
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