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(CBS News)   This is it folks, your last Zimmerman thread as closing arguments start today and....who am I kidding? We're gonna have these threads everyday until Zimmerman's been dead for six years   (cbsnews.com) divider line 2717
    More: Interesting, jury instructions, forensic pathologists, murderers, right of self-defense  
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2507 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jul 2013 at 9:23 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-11 10:00:39 AM  

nekom: PC LOAD LETTER:
I haven't been following the trial close enough to get to that level: what sanctions and bar complaints and why? I assume the Prosecution, because they are seriously incompetent, but what, specifically?

Mostly because the prosecution was withholding evidence.  It's going to be hard to prove, and maybe nothing will come of it.  "oopsies, we goofed, sry".  They had text messages and photographs from that phone that were NOT made available to the defense at first, and an expert witness testified (with the jury absent) that in his professional opinion, they were intentionally deleted.  To say that's fishy is an understatement.


The cell phone stuff, the school records, GZ's prior run in with the law, all of those should have been allowed. If you have to resort to suppressing evidence, you are probably going to lose your case.
 
2013-07-11 10:00:40 AM  
felony third degree murder? Anyone have a link to what that means in FL?
 
2013-07-11 10:00:47 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-11 10:00:54 AM  
what kind of neighborhood watch does not know the streets in the neighborhood watch!  If he knew his streets he did not have to get out of his truck to tell the cops where he was

I was waiting for the 911 call from a white person saying "There is a Mexican in my neighborhood walking around!!"
 
2013-07-11 10:02:00 AM  

zeroman987: Into the blue again: s2s2s2: Nabb1: Darth_Lukecash: Here's my problem: didn't Trayvon have a right to defend himself against a man who was following him with a gun?

A guy who was following him for no other reason than a false assumption that Trayvon was a criminal?

For the millionth time, this does not matter under the law.  The evidence established Trayvon Martin had Zimmerman on the ground and was beating him when he got shot.  Following someone for a few minutes because you believe them to be a criminal, even if you are wrong, is not against the law.  Period.

Zimmerman escalated the situation. He left his car to pursue on foot.

Martin escalated the situation even more when he was punching Zimmerman in the face.

All Trayvon was trying to do was get some snacks and go to his Dads place.

And if he had kept on going and gone inside, that's exactly what would have happened.

And let's be clear. If he had gone straight home, instead of hanging out for 30 minutes, he would have NEVER even been seen by Zimmerman.

So his crime was being a young black kid? That is my only problem with this. All Zimmerman had to do was not profile, or not get out of his car.

Victim blaming is bad.

So why are blaming GZ, the victim of a vicious assault?


Hyperbole much?  I've looked worse after a game of pickup basketball.  It COULD have been a vicious assault (if it is happening the way the alive guy is saying), but I didn't see anything extraordinary.
 
2013-07-11 10:02:14 AM  

The Singing Bush: I'm not going to say that I think he's guilty or not because it is in the realm of possibility that he may be, but I (unlike a lot of people in these threads) can honestly say I don't know.  I think if justice is served then Zimmerman will walk - there's just no evidence to put him away.

I will also say I'm a firm believer of that old "I'd rather see 1000 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man convicted" cliche.  If you really, truly believe he's guilty, well, you've got 999 to go before you should really be upset.


This.  I think that he is responsible for the situation and obviously the death of Martin, but does that mean he is guilty of a crime?  That's why they're having a trial and IANAL.
 
2013-07-11 10:02:21 AM  
Tx for the answer - I'm not on any "team" but it would please me a little to think GZ might not be legally carrying a gun in the future.

That phrase used this week "A gun is only as safe as it's owner" really stuck with me.
 
2013-07-11 10:02:35 AM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Elegy: [i.imgur.com image 300x405]

Its probably a little early to start peacocking. I have a co-worker here who is still trying to cope with the Casey Anthony verdict.


I agree with that.  Never underestimate the stupidity of a jury.
 
2013-07-11 10:02:48 AM  

MFAWG: Nabb1: I half expect the judge to do the state's closing argument herself.

I mean what is the country coming to when you can't stalk and chase down a Negro and then shoot him if he gets all uppity.


Today should be interesting. Boy howdy.
 
2013-07-11 10:02:49 AM  
They have to let Zimmerman walk because of OJ.
 
2013-07-11 10:03:03 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Here's my problem: didn't Trayvon have a right to defend himself against a man who was following him with a gun?

A guy who was following him for no other reason than a false assumption that Trayvon was a criminal?

Zimmerman escalated the situation. He left his car to pursue on foot.

All Trayvon was trying to do was get some snacks and go to his Dads place.


Just let it go.

You'll never convince the Zimmerman cheerleaders.

In their minds, getting followed down a dark street by a stranger in a car is no cause for alarm.  Neither is it cause for alarm if he gets out of the car and follows you.

You should just let them follow you, I mean, they aren't breaking any laws or anything.

This is their actual reasoning.  even though one admitted he would have confronted the guy as well, if he thought he could "take" him.
 
2013-07-11 10:03:04 AM  

Into the blue again: So his crime was being a young black kid?


LOL

No, it was criminal assault. I will only mention the additional crime of being a pothead, because he was a minor.
 
2013-07-11 10:03:15 AM  

Fark It: Darth_Lukecash: If Zimmerman had been killed by Trayvon, would he not actually been in self defense? After all, Zimmerman had a gun and was following him!

Well, Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman had a gun until he started beating his head into the concrete.  So is it self defense to attack somebody who is following you?  Is 'following' a crime?


if it provokes a reasonable fear of imminent harm then yes. do you think being followed in the dark and the rain (after you tried to engage the man in conversation while he was in his vehicle) then suddenly confronted in a dark alley after you thought you had avoided a confrontation with him would provoke a fear? What if after you ask him why he's following you he very quickly reaches for his pocket?? (Zimmerman said it was his phone but it could have just as easily been a weapon) Do you think you have the right to punch this guy and keep him from reaching what you think is his weapon? He hasn't identified himself or his intentions. And lets remember when this initiated Trayvon was on the phone. Zimmerman refused to meet the cops back at his truck and told them to call him and he would tell them where he was at. So Zimmerman's story about being ambushed doesn't make sense. If you were hiding and trying to be quiet so you could ambush someone you wouldn't be talking to someone on the phone. Zimmerman ignored all his training. He ignored the instructions by the dispatcher. He profiled and convicted Martin in his mind. To George this was the burglar. And he was going to be the hero and not let him get away this time.
 
2013-07-11 10:03:56 AM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: I've looked worse after a game of pickup basketball.


An assault can be vicious without inflicting grievous bodily harm.
 
2013-07-11 10:04:04 AM  

parasol: Tx for the answer - I'm not on any "team" but it would please me a little to think GZ might not be legally carrying a gun in the future.

That phrase used this week "A gun is only as safe as it's owner" really stuck with me.


Sorry, if someone was on top of me beating my head against the sidewalk and I was carrying, they'd be shoot too...
 
2013-07-11 10:04:34 AM  

soupafi: I think 5 hours. Enough time to get a free lunch.


They are sequestered right?

If they weren't I would have gone with tomorrow, just to milk those free meals
 
2013-07-11 10:04:36 AM  
whizbangthedirtfarmer:

Hyperbole much?  I've looked worse after a game of pickup basketball.  It COULD have been a vicious assault (if it is happening the way the alive guy is saying), but I didn't see anything extraordinary.

If you get a broken nose and need to go to the doctor for head wounds after a game of basketball you need to play with different people.
 
2013-07-11 10:04:50 AM  

The Singing Bush: I'm not going to say that I think he's guilty or not because it is in the realm of possibility that he may be, but I (unlike a lot of people in these threads) can honestly say I don't know.  I think if justice is served then Zimmerman will walk - there's just no evidence to put him away.

I will also say I'm a firm believer of that old "I'd rather see 1000 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man convicted" cliche.  If you really, truly believe he's guilty, well, you've got 999 to go before you should really be upset.


I suppose the state of Florida would rather see one innocent man go to prison than 10,000 men riot in the streets.
 
2013-07-11 10:05:05 AM  

Romeo_Santana: Then the civil suits against all those who falsified his arrest warrant just to pacify the dark skinned people will begin.


You're still going with that nutbag assumption that the arrest warrant was falsified?

Snert.
 
2013-07-11 10:05:18 AM  

Hobodeluxe: if it provokes a reasonable fear of imminent harm then yes. do you think being followed in the dark and the rain (after you tried to engage the man in conversation while he was in his vehicle)


Weather isn't climate. Stop speculating out of thin air, just because the facts don't please you.
 
2013-07-11 10:05:34 AM  

Elegy: Here are some summaries of how the trial has been going thus far:

[i.imgur.com image 255x190]

[i.imgur.com image 300x152]

/mad props to daRog for shrinking them enough for inline posting



Yeah, that daRog is sort of a wizard-god dude who is embedded deep in the bowels of totaLPhark.. I try to keep a keen eye on him, cause he's a trickster, yes he is... (I have talked to him and participated in countless threads with him also contributing, consider him to be a friend. But enough about Monseure daRog.  Here's a pic for everyone's consideration)


i466.photobucket.comSet the Zimm Free!
 
2013-07-11 10:05:56 AM  
Night after night after night after night ALRIGHT!
 
2013-07-11 10:06:09 AM  

Carn: The Singing Bush: I'm not going to say that I think he's guilty or not because it is in the realm of possibility that he may be, but I (unlike a lot of people in these threads) can honestly say I don't know.  I think if justice is served then Zimmerman will walk - there's just no evidence to put him away.

I will also say I'm a firm believer of that old "I'd rather see 1000 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man convicted" cliche.  If you really, truly believe he's guilty, well, you've got 999 to go before you should really be upset.

This.  I think that he is responsible for the situation and obviously the death of Martin, but does that mean he is guilty of a crime?  That's why they're having a trial and IANAL.


This is the sticking point here on Fark, you have the rabid zimmerman did nothing wrong people who think trayvon deserved to die for being a thug, then you have the trayvon did nothing wrong and was shot like a dog. Neither side understands both acted like idiots and no one will ever convince them otherwise. I do think Zimmerman should get something for creating the situation, but that is my opinion.
 
2013-07-11 10:06:33 AM  

parasol: That phrase used this week "A gun is only as safe as it's owner" really stuck with me.


To see a lot of  people in these threads  say that Zimmerman didn't act in a dangerous way and put people at risk is kinda scary how many proud to be irresponsible gun owners there are out the world.
 
2013-07-11 10:06:37 AM  

s2s2s2: Nabb1: Darth_Lukecash: Here's my problem: didn't Trayvon have a right to defend himself against a man who was following him with a gun?

A guy who was following him for no other reason than a false assumption that Trayvon was a criminal?

For the millionth time, this does not matter under the law.  The evidence established Trayvon Martin had Zimmerman on the ground and was beating him when he got shot.  Following someone for a few minutes because you believe them to be a criminal, even if you are wrong, is not against the law.  Period.

Zimmerman escalated the situation. He left his car to pursue on foot.

Martin escalated the situation even more when he was punching Zimmerman in the face.

All Trayvon was trying to do was get some snacks and go to his Dads place.

And if he had kept on going and gone inside, that's exactly what would have happened.

And let's be clear. If he had gone straight home, instead of hanging out for 30 minutes, he would have NEVER even been seen by Zimmerman.


Yeah, people have NO RIGHT to be in the streets or anything.  They should just go right home!
 
2013-07-11 10:07:06 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: I don't agree with the bolded part.


You did, before.
 
2013-07-11 10:07:12 AM  

s2s2s2: Into the blue again: So his crime was being a young black kid?

LOL

No, it was criminal assault. I will only mention the additional crime of being a pothead, because he was a minor.


So when I turned 18 I was no longer a pothead?

/obvious snark from me!!
 
2013-07-11 10:07:41 AM  

Nabb1: I half expect the judge to do the state's closing argument herself.


THIS. especially after trying to persuade the jury to find him guilty on lesser charges without trial for them.
 
2013-07-11 10:07:53 AM  

s2s2s2: Into the blue again: So his crime was being a young black kid?

LOL

No, it was criminal assault. I will only mention the additional crime of being a pothead, because he was a minor.


and why did he feel the need to defend himself? why did he think this guy who wouldn't identify himself. who wouldn't talk to him when he approached his vehicle. who followed him halfway home and then when asked again "why are you following me" suddenly reached for his pocket was a threat? is that not reasonable? cops shoot people all the time for reaching for their pockets
 
2013-07-11 10:08:08 AM  
Manslaughter is on the table now for the jury.
 
2013-07-11 10:08:17 AM  
Lo and behold, she's allowing manslaughter.
 
2013-07-11 10:08:30 AM  

Thune: Zimmerman was neighborhood watch.

Martin was neighborhood thug.

Martin decided he didn't like Zimmerman watching him and decided to administer a beat down.

Martin got shot for it.

And Martin had it coming.


img180.imageshack.us
 
2013-07-11 10:08:32 AM  

Elegy:


A winnar is you!!!!!
 
2013-07-11 10:08:48 AM  
Guilty or innocent I  would be surprised if Zimmerman survived six more years Subby.
 
2013-07-11 10:08:59 AM  

s2s2s2: whizbangthedirtfarmer: I've looked worse after a game of pickup basketball.

An assault can be vicious without inflicting grievous bodily harm.


Whiz, you played tackle basketballl too??? That game is rough.

An assualt can be VERY vicious and not leave exterior body harm. But if it is vicious there will damage to show for it.
 
2013-07-11 10:09:02 AM  

Headso: To see a lot of  people in these threads  say that Zimmerman didn't act in a dangerous way and put people at risk is kinda scary how many proud to be irresponsible gun owners there are out the world.


They make undergarments for you people.

i1108.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-11 10:09:43 AM  

tripleseven: Yeah, people have NO RIGHT to be in the streets or anything.


So then we agree, George had a right to get out of his car. Thank you.
 
2013-07-11 10:09:46 AM  

Sline: Lo and behold, she's allowing manslaughter.


You can't have "Zimmermans Laughter" without "manslaughter".
 
2013-07-11 10:10:09 AM  

Keeve: Fark It: Darth_Lukecash: If Zimmerman had been killed by Trayvon, would he not actually been in self defense? After all, Zimmerman had a gun and was following him!

Well, Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman had a gun until he started beating his head into the concrete.  So is it self defense to attack somebody who is following you?  Is 'following' a crime?

Help, help I'm being followed to death! Oh no, come quick I think they're eavesdropping with a knife as well!


Standard scenarios: Black guy follows white guy. White guy might think he's going to be robbed or killed. White guy follows black guy. Black guy might think he's going to be beaten or killed.

I dunno, I live in NYC. This is painfully obvious to me. Maybe it's because I am used to this mindset and have talked to lots of black folks who describe what goes through their mind in various scenarios like this. It's not hard to understand, just easy for some folks to laugh it off with "so someone was following you, what's the problem?" line of thinking, and that depends on where they are from and what they have experienced. It's not so simple. I have been followed by folks. I didn't like it. I got to a grocery store and hung out for a half hour and left, hoping they were gone. They were. Maybe it was nothing. I don't take chances. Did TM have better options than confront his pursuer? Probably, but I can see where this can go bad quickly.
 
2013-07-11 10:10:15 AM  

Sline: Lo and behold, she's allowing manslaughter.


I don't think it should be an option, but from the case law the prosecution cited, it sounds like she couldn't have ruled any other way thanks to Florida law.
 
2013-07-11 10:10:22 AM  

Molavian: you people


who are you calling "you people"?
 
2013-07-11 10:10:29 AM  

Hobodeluxe: Fark It: Darth_Lukecash: If Zimmerman had been killed by Trayvon, would he not actually been in self defense? After all, Zimmerman had a gun and was following him!

Well, Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman had a gun until he started beating his head into the concrete.  So is it self defense to attack somebody who is following you?  Is 'following' a crime?

if it provokes a reasonable fear of imminent harm then yes. do you think being followed in the dark and the rain (after you tried to engage the man in conversation while he was in his vehicle) then suddenly confronted in a dark alley after you thought you had avoided a confrontation with him would provoke a fear? What if after you ask him why he's following you he very quickly reaches for his pocket?? (Zimmerman said it was his phone but it could have just as easily been a weapon) Do you think you have the right to punch this guy and keep him from reaching what you think is his weapon? He hasn't identified himself or his intentions. And lets remember when this initiated Trayvon was on the phone. Zimmerman refused to meet the cops back at his truck and told them to call him and he would tell them where he was at. So Zimmerman's story about being ambushed doesn't make sense. If you were hiding and trying to be quiet so you could ambush someone you wouldn't be talking to someone on the phone. Zimmerman ignored all his training. He ignored the instructions by the dispatcher. He profiled and convicted Martin in his mind. To George this was the burglar. And he was going to be the hero and not let him get away this time.


Erroneous statements of the law aside, you speculate about facts not in evidence quite imaginatively.
 
2013-07-11 10:10:31 AM  

AngryDragon: Darth_Lukecash: Here's my problem: didn't Trayvon have a right to defend himself against a man who was following him with a gun?

A guy who was following him for no other reason than a false assumption that Trayvon was a criminal?

Zimmerman escalated the situation. He left his car to pursue on foot.

All Trayvon was trying to do was get some snacks and go to his Dads place.

No.  He had no idea Zimmerman had a gun.
No.  Following someone is not a reason to assault them.
No.  He was reporting to the police what he was seeing and stopped following when it was suggested.
No.  He also assaulted a person (for racist reasons if you believe his girlfriends testimony) and took things way too far.

That help?


Trayvon thought Zimmerman meant him harm. He was right.

Trayvon should be okay with someone following him for no reason? Some people believe that it's better to throw the first punch in a fight than to get beaten up themselves.

Zimmerman left the car after he was told not to. He may have been heading back to his car, but he was out if it. He escalated it.

Zimmeman was following him for no reason that he saw a young kid was walking in his neighborhood.

Trayvon shouldn't have assaulted Zimmerman, and died because of it. But to say Zimmerman is innocent is rediculous. He purposely injected himself into a dangerous situation. Probably because he had that happy warm gun toting superiority that comes with the second amendment.
 
2013-07-11 10:10:36 AM  
Judge allows manslaughter
 
2013-07-11 10:10:46 AM  

s2s2s2: tripleseven: Yeah, people have NO RIGHT to be in the streets or anything.

So then we agree, George had a right to get out of his car. Thank you.


and trayvon had the right to defend himself from a perceived threat
 
2013-07-11 10:11:08 AM  
img834.imageshack.us
 
2013-07-11 10:11:36 AM  

Nabb1: Hobodeluxe: Fark It: Darth_Lukecash: If Zimmerman had been killed by Trayvon, would he not actually been in self defense? After all, Zimmerman had a gun and was following him!

Well, Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman had a gun until he started beating his head into the concrete.  So is it self defense to attack somebody who is following you?  Is 'following' a crime?

if it provokes a reasonable fear of imminent harm then yes. do you think being followed in the dark and the rain (after you tried to engage the man in conversation while he was in his vehicle) then suddenly confronted in a dark alley after you thought you had avoided a confrontation with him would provoke a fear? What if after you ask him why he's following you he very quickly reaches for his pocket?? (Zimmerman said it was his phone but it could have just as easily been a weapon) Do you think you have the right to punch this guy and keep him from reaching what you think is his weapon? He hasn't identified himself or his intentions. And lets remember when this initiated Trayvon was on the phone. Zimmerman refused to meet the cops back at his truck and told them to call him and he would tell them where he was at. So Zimmerman's story about being ambushed doesn't make sense. If you were hiding and trying to be quiet so you could ambush someone you wouldn't be talking to someone on the phone. Zimmerman ignored all his training. He ignored the instructions by the dispatcher. He profiled and convicted Martin in his mind. To George this was the burglar. And he was going to be the hero and not let him get away this time.

Erroneous statements of the law aside, you speculate about facts not in evidence quite imaginatively.


no I didn't. all those are facts.
 
2013-07-11 10:12:00 AM  

Carth: whizbangthedirtfarmer:

Hyperbole much?  I've looked worse after a game of pickup basketball.  It COULD have been a vicious assault (if it is happening the way the alive guy is saying), but I didn't see anything extraordinary.

If you get a broken nose and need to go to the doctor for head wounds after a game of basketball you need to play with different people.


GZ didn't need to go to the doctor.
 
2013-07-11 10:12:08 AM  

Headso: Molavian: you people

who are you calling "you people"?


i46.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-11 10:12:09 AM  

Into the blue again: So when I turned 18 I was no longer a pothead?

/obvious snark from me!!


Yeah, poor wording on my part. I don't think it should be illegal for 21 and up. Minor in possession or UI would still be a "crime".

Into the blue again: But if it is vicious there will damage to show for it.


[gzscenephotos.jpg]
 
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