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(CBS News)   This is it folks, your last Zimmerman thread as closing arguments start today and....who am I kidding? We're gonna have these threads everyday until Zimmerman's been dead for six years   (cbsnews.com) divider line 2719
    More: Interesting, jury instructions, forensic pathologists, murderers, right of self-defense  
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2499 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jul 2013 at 9:23 AM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-11 09:48:41 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: s2s2s2: Nabb1: Darth_Lukecash: Here's my problem: didn't Trayvon have a right to defend himself against a man who was following him with a gun?

A guy who was following him for no other reason than a false assumption that Trayvon was a criminal?

For the millionth time, this does not matter under the law.  The evidence established Trayvon Martin had Zimmerman on the ground and was beating him when he got shot.  Following someone for a few minutes because you believe them to be a criminal, even if you are wrong, is not against the law.  Period.

Zimmerman escalated the situation. He left his car to pursue on foot.

Martin escalated the situation even more when he was punching Zimmerman in the face.

All Trayvon was trying to do was get some snacks and go to his Dads place.

And if he had kept on going and gone inside, that's exactly what would have happened.

And let's be clear. If he had gone straight home, instead of hanging out for 30 minutes, he would have NEVER even been seen by Zimmerman.

Agreed, but if one thinks some white dude is stalking you because you are black, why would you let them know where you live? TM should have just hid until GZ went away. GZ should have stayed in his damn car.


TM should have stayed in his damn home. FACT

or

TM should have ran home and not confront GZ. FACT

/those are just as valid as the above bolded shiat
 
2013-07-11 09:48:45 AM

nekom: MyRandomName: jso2897: I find both "sides" of this argument so distasteful that I hope the jury somehow manages to reach a verdict that enrages both "sides".

Mistrial would do that.

A mistrial wouldn't enrage me, in fact I think it's in order, as are sanctions and bar complaints.


I haven't been following the trial close enough to get to that level: what sanctions and bar complaints and why? I assume the Prosecution, because they are seriously incompetent, but what, specifically?
 
2013-07-11 09:49:14 AM

Darth_Lukecash: If Zimmerman had been killed by Trayvon, would he not actually been in self defense? After all, Zimmerman had a gun and was following him!


Well, Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman had a gun until he started beating his head into the concrete.  So is it self defense to attack somebody who is following you?  Is 'following' a crime?
 
2013-07-11 09:49:49 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: Agreed, but if one thinks some white dude is stalking you because you are black, why would you let them know where you live? TM should have just hid until GZ went away. GZ should have stayed in his damn car.


So we agree he could have gotten home, well before GZ would have seen him, and then gone back out and waited to give him his address when he finally went out to get sammich makings? Dafuq you smoking PC?
 
2013-07-11 09:49:58 AM

Phinn: Carth: Phinn: tripleseven: They should have gone with manslaughter.

Legal question for you -- Does self-defense also negate a manslaughter allegation?

Isn't that was they are set to argue at 945? Whether the jury instructions will include lesser charges.

That's a separate question.

Today they are arguing whether the evidence is sufficient to justify asking the jury to consider both murder and manslaughter convictions as possible verdicts.  Some cases are either murder or nothing.  Some cases could be one or the other, depending on the jury's interpretation of the evidence as to the defendant's mental state.

My question is different -- If a defendant successfully asserts self-defense, and he's facing both murder and manslaughter charges, does self-defense negate both of those charges?


There are many different types of manslaughter, and different jury instructions thereto.  One type of manslaughter is "imperfect self defense."  If you kill someone in what you think is self defense, but you fark up one of the elements, you are guilty of imperfect self defense man slaughter.
 
2013-07-11 09:50:09 AM

Phinn: My question is different -- If a defendant successfully asserts self-defense, and he's facing both murder and manslaughter charges, does self-defense negate both of those charges?


Yes: if the jury accepts the self-defense claim, then it's all over. The legal concept of self-defense completely negates the criminality of an act deemed to be done in self-defense.
 
2013-07-11 09:50:28 AM

MyRandomName: jso2897: I find both "sides" of this argument so distasteful that I hope the jury somehow manages to reach a verdict that enrages both "sides".

Mistrial would do that.


Hung jury - that would be cool - especially if the prosecution decides to try it again. We could get years of seething, flailing rage and tears out of this. All about something stupid that happened involving two people nobody here would have ever met in their lives, or know about, if they hadn't been huge dumbasses.
 
2013-07-11 09:50:40 AM

tricycleracer: Zimmerman will be back protecting the streets of his apartment complex by lunchtime tomorrow.

Maybe he'll stop by 7-11 to pick up a cool drink and a snack before he starts his shift as a proud defender of freedom.


i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-11 09:50:48 AM
I am waiting for the riots when he is found not guilty or for justice to be tainted and him to be found guilty of a lesser charge in order to prevent riots.
 
2013-07-11 09:51:08 AM

ACunningPlan: And CNN are still banging the race drum.....

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/11/opinion/francis-zimmerman-trial/index. ht ml?eref=igoogledmn_topstories


What's his Fark handle?  He's still repeating the same disproven crap as what shows up in every one of these threads.....
 
2013-07-11 09:51:24 AM
I have a question and would, if possible, like an answer from someone who knows and with a minimum of snark...

If someone (i know, i know GZ will never be found guilty of anything because blah, blah) is found guilty of homicide/manslaughter (i know, I know, GZ never committed either because blah,blah) are they ever allowed to legally have a CCW permit again?

Just curious what the law is (I know, I know, GZ will never not have a legal permit because, blah, blah)

Tx
 
2013-07-11 09:51:34 AM

the_rev: tricycleracer: Zimmerman will be back protecting the streets of his apartment complex by lunchtime tomorrow.

I'm guessing he'll never feel like trying to do anything helpful for his neighbors, ever again, after this shiatstorm. And I don't blame him a bit.


"I'm just gonna pretend I didn't see a dead body in the middle of the street" as he puts his hands in his pockets and whistles as he walks away.
 
2013-07-11 09:51:47 AM

Popcorn Johnny: jso2897: I find both "sides" of this argument so distasteful that I hope the jury somehow manages to reach a verdict that enrages both "sides".

Guilty of aggravated assault with a firearm, sentenced to time served.


That would be hilarious - could that technically actually happen?
 
2013-07-11 09:51:51 AM

halB: There are many different types of manslaughter, and different jury instructions thereto. One type of manslaughter is "imperfect self defense." If you kill someone in what you think is self defense, but you fark up one of the elements, you are guilty of imperfect self defense man slaughter.


True, but Phinn asked about the case where the jury successfully asserts self-defense. Imperfect self-defense implies a partially-failed claim.
 
2013-07-11 09:52:08 AM

KellyX: TM should have stayed in his damn home. FACT

or

TM should have ran home and not confront GZ. FACT


Stayed home? Yes, because that's reasonable. GZ should have stayed home in that case as well.

Ran home? Seriously? If you think you are being chased by a white dude out to get a negro, why the hell would you lead him directly to your home?

Black people's worst nightmare is being killed by white racists*: FACT

*not that GZ was one, but he sure made every effort to make TM think that might be the case.
 
2013-07-11 09:52:14 AM
PC LOAD LETTER:
I haven't been following the trial close enough to get to that level: what sanctions and bar complaints and why? I assume the Prosecution, because they are seriously incompetent, but what, specifically?

Mostly because the prosecution was withholding evidence.  It's going to be hard to prove, and maybe nothing will come of it.  "oopsies, we goofed, sry".  They had text messages and photographs from that phone that were NOT made available to the defense at first, and an expert witness testified (with the jury absent) that in his professional opinion, they were intentionally deleted.  To say that's fishy is an understatement.
 
2013-07-11 09:52:27 AM

Darth_Lukecash: Here's my problem: didn't Trayvon have a right to defend himself against a man who was following him with a gun?

A guy who was following him for no other reason than a false assumption that Trayvon was a criminal?

Zimmerman escalated the situation. He left his car to pursue on foot.

All Trayvon was trying to do was get some snacks and go to his Dads place.


Do you know what else your problem is, you make a statement that Trayvon should be able to defend himself against a man with a gun.
The problem is that there is no way for him to know that.  You are basically left with, shouldnt Travon have been able to attack a man who is folllowing him.

The answer is no, you should not be able to do that.

"All Trayvon was trying to do was get some snacks and go to his Dads place. "
So why did he get home and then run back up to confront cracker ass cracker.?
 
2013-07-11 09:52:52 AM

s2s2s2: Nabb1: Darth_Lukecash: Here's my problem: didn't Trayvon have a right to defend himself against a man who was following him with a gun?

A guy who was following him for no other reason than a false assumption that Trayvon was a criminal?

For the millionth time, this does not matter under the law.  The evidence established Trayvon Martin had Zimmerman on the ground and was beating him when he got shot.  Following someone for a few minutes because you believe them to be a criminal, even if you are wrong, is not against the law.  Period.

Zimmerman escalated the situation. He left his car to pursue on foot.

Martin escalated the situation even more when he was punching Zimmerman in the face.

All Trayvon was trying to do was get some snacks and go to his Dads place.

And if he had kept on going and gone inside, that's exactly what would have happened.

And let's be clear. If he had gone straight home, instead of hanging out for 30 minutes, he would have NEVER even been seen by Zimmerman.


So his crime was being a young black kid? That is my only problem with this. All Zimmerman had to do was not profile, or not get out of his car.

Victim blaming is bad.
 
2013-07-11 09:52:54 AM
ACunningPlan

And CNN are still banging the race drum.....

With fake stories, no less.

Where do people get the idea that Zimmerman confronted Martin? No one involved has ever suggested that. It only comes from people who want to believe Martin didn't do anything wrong. Even Martin's friend said he confronted Zimmerman. I just don't get it.
 
2013-07-11 09:53:02 AM

parasol: I have a question and would, if possible, like an answer from someone who knows and with a minimum of snark...

If someone (i know, i know GZ will never be found guilty of anything because blah, blah) is found guilty of homicide/manslaughter (i know, I know, GZ never committed either because blah,blah) are they ever allowed to legally have a CCW permit again?

Just curious what the law is (I know, I know, GZ will never not have a legal permit because, blah, blah)

Tx


No.  A felony of any kind generally results in the loss of gun ownership privileges.
 
2013-07-11 09:53:09 AM

ACunningPlan: And CNN are still banging the race drum.....

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/11/opinion/francis-zimmerman-trial/index. ht ml?eref=igoogledmn_topstories


Roxanne jones had an article there yesterday implying racism was the cause of such a crappy prosecution. Has CNN had one article that actually even discussed actual facts?
 
2013-07-11 09:53:30 AM

Darth_Lukecash: dittybopper: Darth_Lukecash: Here's my problem: didn't Trayvon have a right to defend himself against a man who was following him with a gun?

A guy who was following him for no other reason than a false assumption that Trayvon was a criminal?

Zimmerman escalated the situation. He left his car to pursue on foot.

All Trayvon was trying to do was get some snacks and go to his Dads place.

"I misunderstand what actually happened, and I make suppositions that support my misunderstandings".

FTFY.

If Zimmerman had been killed by Trayvon, would he not actually been in self defense? After all, Zimmerman had a gun and was following him!

Had Zimmerman just called it in, and stayed in the car, no one would have been killed.

Had Trayvon just gone back to his dads place, he'd been fine.

But you had two farking hotheads who brought this avoidable situation to a head. One paid for it with his life. What will happen to the other, will be seen soon.


Yep.  In our area, we had a road rage case where one guy flipped another guy off.  The middle finger receiver followed the giver all the way to the guy's house.  The second guy gets out of his car, carrying a bat or something.  The first guy (the middle finger receiver) pulls out a gun and shoots him.  The local rednecks started crying out GUN RIGHTS!  GUN RIGHTS! but it was never about that.  It was about two men acting like three-year-olds.
 
2013-07-11 09:53:32 AM

parasol: I have a question and would, if possible, like an answer from someone who knows and with a minimum of snark...

If someone (i know, i know GZ will never be found guilty of anything because blah, blah) is found guilty of homicide/manslaughter (i know, I know, GZ never committed either because blah,blah) are they ever allowed to legally have a CCW permit again?

Just curious what the law is (I know, I know, GZ will never not have a legal permit because, blah, blah)

Tx


You can't own a gun if you have a felony conviction against you.
 
2013-07-11 09:53:35 AM

Profedius: I am waiting for the riots when he is found not guilty or for justice to be tainted and him to be found guilty of a lesser charge in order to prevent riots.


Yeah, it would be horrible if justice were "tainted" by an innocent man going to jail here in America.
 
2013-07-11 09:53:52 AM

Elegy:


How does that not include Miss Witness "The Rack" Neighbor?

/toasting in epic bread
 
2013-07-11 09:54:33 AM
Zimmerman should be found guilty on the manslaughter charge.
 
2013-07-11 09:54:55 AM

jso2897: Popcorn Johnny: jso2897: I find both "sides" of this argument so distasteful that I hope the jury somehow manages to reach a verdict that enrages both "sides".

Guilty of aggravated assault with a firearm, sentenced to time served.

That would be hilarious - could that technically actually happen?


I wouldn't call it likely, but I guess it could happen.
 
2013-07-11 09:55:16 AM

KellyX: PC LOAD LETTER: s2s2s2: Nabb1: Darth_Lukecash: Here's my problem: didn't Trayvon have a right to defend himself against a man who was following him with a gun?

A guy who was following him for no other reason than a false assumption that Trayvon was a criminal?

For the millionth time, this does not matter under the law.  The evidence established Trayvon Martin had Zimmerman on the ground and was beating him when he got shot.  Following someone for a few minutes because you believe them to be a criminal, even if you are wrong, is not against the law.  Period.

Zimmerman escalated the situation. He left his car to pursue on foot.

Martin escalated the situation even more when he was punching Zimmerman in the face.

All Trayvon was trying to do was get some snacks and go to his Dads place.

And if he had kept on going and gone inside, that's exactly what would have happened.

And let's be clear. If he had gone straight home, instead of hanging out for 30 minutes, he would have NEVER even been seen by Zimmerman.

Agreed, but if one thinks some white dude is stalking you because you are black, why would you let them know where you live? TM should have just hid until GZ went away. GZ should have stayed in his damn car.

TM should have stayed in his damn home. FACT

or

TM should have ran home and not confront GZ. FACT

/those are just as valid as the above bolded shiat


She should not have been dressed like that!
 
2013-07-11 09:55:38 AM

Elegy: [i.imgur.com image 300x405]


Its probably a little early to start peacocking. I have a co-worker here who is still trying to cope with the Casey Anthony verdict.
 
2013-07-11 09:55:39 AM
Into the blue again:
So his crime was being a young black kid?

G
oing by the evidence it appears his crime was beating Zimmerman and slamming his head into concrete. Had he just been a young black kid the worst thing that would have happened to him would have been a creep cracker following him.
 
2013-07-11 09:55:45 AM

Into the blue again: s2s2s2: Nabb1: Darth_Lukecash: Here's my problem: didn't Trayvon have a right to defend himself against a man who was following him with a gun?

A guy who was following him for no other reason than a false assumption that Trayvon was a criminal?

For the millionth time, this does not matter under the law.  The evidence established Trayvon Martin had Zimmerman on the ground and was beating him when he got shot.  Following someone for a few minutes because you believe them to be a criminal, even if you are wrong, is not against the law.  Period.

Zimmerman escalated the situation. He left his car to pursue on foot.

Martin escalated the situation even more when he was punching Zimmerman in the face.

All Trayvon was trying to do was get some snacks and go to his Dads place.

And if he had kept on going and gone inside, that's exactly what would have happened.

And let's be clear. If he had gone straight home, instead of hanging out for 30 minutes, he would have NEVER even been seen by Zimmerman.

So his crime was being a young black kid? That is my only problem with this. All Zimmerman had to do was not profile, or not get out of his car.

Victim blaming is bad.


So why are blaming GZ, the victim of a vicious assault?
 
2013-07-11 09:56:02 AM

chewielouie: The big mistake the defense made was not having at least one man on the jury. There's gonna be a lot of emotional and possibly irrational decision making in the jury room, and a man would have helped to keep the jury focused on the facts and make logical conclusions.


Because that worked out so well with the two men that got us here in the first place, amiright?
 
2013-07-11 09:56:19 AM

parasol: I have a question and would, if possible, like an answer from someone who knows and with a minimum of snark...

If someone (i know, i know GZ will never be found guilty of anything because blah, blah) is found guilty of homicide/manslaughter (i know, I know, GZ never committed either because blah,blah) are they ever allowed to legally have a CCW permit again?

Just curious what the law is (I know, I know, GZ will never not have a legal permit because, blah, blah)

Tx



I don't know for sure, but I highly doubt that anyone convicted of a violent felony can get a CCW permit.

Although, here's a curious feature of Florida law -- you cannot carry a concealed knife that is longer than 4 inches (unless you have a CCW permit), but anyone can openly carry a blade of any length or type, no permit required.

Yes, that includes swords.
 
2013-07-11 09:56:23 AM
Zimmerman was neighborhood watch.

Martin was neighborhood thug.

Martin decided he didn't like Zimmerman watching him and decided to administer a beat down.

Martin got shot for it.

And Martin had it coming.
 
2013-07-11 09:56:33 AM
So, what say we cut a deal with MegaBus to organize riot buses. We roll from the 10 or 15 large urban areas, provide soda and snacks, and remind them that the chance of making it through the south with guns packed in a hoopty car are slim to 'Do you know why I pulled you over, Son?'. We clear out hotheads from many other cities, doing them a favor, and we hope the most ignorant go down in cross fire. We also use the same buses to haul scared folks out of the area before shiat gets real (stupid).
 
2013-07-11 09:56:38 AM

cookiefleck: the_rev: tricycleracer: Zimmerman will be back protecting the streets of his apartment complex by lunchtime tomorrow.

I'm guessing he'll never feel like trying to do anything helpful for his neighbors, ever again, after this shiatstorm. And I don't blame him a bit.

"I'm just gonna pretend I didn't see a dead body in the middle of the street" as he puts his hands in his pockets and whistles as he walks away.


Exactly! Like the police detective on vacation. "I didn't see a thing."
 
2013-07-11 09:56:49 AM

AeAe: Zimmerman should be found guilty on the manslaughter charge.


how many years?   i would go with 5 years
 
2013-07-11 09:56:51 AM
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-07-11 09:57:10 AM

PC LOAD LETTER: KellyX: TM should have stayed in his damn home. FACT

or

TM should have ran home and not confront GZ. FACT

Stayed home? Yes, because that's reasonable. GZ should have stayed home in that case as well.

Ran home? Seriously? If you think you are being chased by a white dude out to get a negro, why the hell would you lead him directly to your home?

Black people's worst nightmare is being killed by white racists*: FACT

*not that GZ was one, but he sure made every effort to make TM think that might be the case.


None of it is reasonable, that was the point... Any number of things could have caused the entire incident to not happen, you cited him staying in his truck, it's just as true that TM could have not went out to 7-11, left his house, walked home faster from said store, ran into his home (he had already lost GZ), etc.
 
2013-07-11 09:58:07 AM
Will the jury have the intestinal fortitude to find the defendant not guilty, even though they might be scared of potentially being labeled racist and fear of violent repercussions? It's one thing to sit at home and make a judgement based on facts. It's another to be among other people, and to know your judgement will be scrutinized by millions. They have a tough decison to make.
 
2013-07-11 09:58:15 AM
It's funny to read all the tough on crime throw the book at em types worried about the fairness of this trial, they suddenly care about defendant's rights, overzealous prosecution and judges. I wonder if it will stick...
 
2013-07-11 09:58:21 AM

zeroman987: Into the blue again: s2s2s2: Nabb1: Darth_Lukecash: Here's my problem: didn't Trayvon have a right to defend himself against a man who was following him with a gun?

A guy who was following him for no other reason than a false assumption that Trayvon was a criminal?

For the millionth time, this does not matter under the law.  The evidence established Trayvon Martin had Zimmerman on the ground and was beating him when he got shot.  Following someone for a few minutes because you believe them to be a criminal, even if you are wrong, is not against the law.  Period.

Zimmerman escalated the situation. He left his car to pursue on foot.

Martin escalated the situation even more when he was punching Zimmerman in the face.

All Trayvon was trying to do was get some snacks and go to his Dads place.

And if he had kept on going and gone inside, that's exactly what would have happened.

And let's be clear. If he had gone straight home, instead of hanging out for 30 minutes, he would have NEVER even been seen by Zimmerman.

So his crime was being a young black kid? That is my only problem with this. All Zimmerman had to do was not profile, or not get out of his car.

Victim blaming is bad.

So why are blaming GZ, the victim of a vicious assault?


I'm not blaming anyone, this is a bad situation. There are no winners. Zimmerman will not be found guilty of Murder 2, if he somehow is they will win on appeal easy I think.
 
2013-07-11 09:58:29 AM
So it will really be over soon? Thank god.

/hopefully the not guilty verdict brings the kid back to life
 
2013-07-11 09:58:36 AM

Nabb1: I half expect the judge to do the state's closing argument herself.


I mean what is the country coming to when you can't stalk and chase down a Negro and then shoot him if he gets all uppity.
 
2013-07-11 09:58:42 AM
I'm not going to say that I think he's guilty or not because it is in the realm of possibility that he may be, but I (unlike a lot of people in these threads) can honestly say I don't know.  I think if justice is served then Zimmerman will walk - there's just no evidence to put him away.

I will also say I'm a firm believer of that old "I'd rather see 1000 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man convicted" cliche.  If you really, truly believe he's guilty, well, you've got 999 to go before you should really be upset.
 
2013-07-11 09:59:02 AM

Fark It: Darth_Lukecash: If Zimmerman had been killed by Trayvon, would he not actually been in self defense? After all, Zimmerman had a gun and was following him!

Well, Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman had a gun until he started beating his head into the concrete.  So is it self defense to attack somebody who is following you?  Is 'following' a crime?


Help, help I'm being followed to death! Oh no, come quick I think they're eavesdropping with a knife as well!
 
2013-07-11 09:59:17 AM

the_rev: IdBeCrazyIf: I'm just waiting for the riots, cause I've been eying this sweet looking 60' LED TV recently

I'm not really feeling it. I think I'll just riot at Walmart for a bit, maybe pick up some alpo, Mr. Clean, and paper towels.


lawl
 
2013-07-11 09:59:30 AM

s2s2s2: PC LOAD LETTER: Agreed, but if one thinks some white dude is stalking you because you are black, why would you let them know where you live? TM should have just hid until GZ went away. GZ should have stayed in his damn car.

So we agree he could have gotten home, well before GZ would have seen him, and then gone back out and waited to give him his address when he finally went out to get sammich makings? Dafuq you smoking PC?


Jesus, do I have to spell it out: you are being followed by a guy you think is out to get you. You are a block away from your home. Do you run home and take a chance that the pursuer is going to see where you live?

I don't agree with the bolded part. Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't take a chance I'd be seen. And it does depend at what point he would have ran, which would have depended at what point he would have been spooked, and in addition, depends on what GZ's further reactions would have been, specifically if he would follow him.
 
2013-07-11 09:59:59 AM

Carth: Into the blue again:
So his crime was being a young black kid?

Going by the evidence it appears his crime was beating Zimmerman and slamming his head into concrete. Had he just been a young black kid the worst thing that would have happened to him would have been a creep cracker following him.


His crime was walking home at the same time Zimmerman was outside. What happened between the encounter and the first witness no one knows, but as I have stated many times, Zimmerman should not be found guiltyof Murder 2.
 
2013-07-11 10:00:22 AM

Elegy: The Muthaship: Popcorn Johnny: I'm betting on the defense trying to draw things out as much as possible today so they don't have to present their closing argument until Friday morning.

If the jury gets this after lunch Friday, I am rescinding my bet.  I bet the over on a 2 hour deliberation, but if they get it Friday afternoon I don't want any part of that action.

That brings up an excellent point - get your predictions about the length of jury deliberations in now, people.

/an hour or less


I think 5 hours. Enough time to get a free lunch.

/ not guilty
 
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