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(Christian Science Monitor)   Senators Baucus(D) and Hatch(R): The tax code is literally 18 pounds worth of hot mess that nobody understands anyway. Let's shiatcan the entire thing and start over   (csmonitor.com) divider line 409
    More: Hero, senator hatch, Baucus, tax reform, Senate Finance Committee  
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2825 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Jul 2013 at 5:06 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-10 03:04:16 PM
They must use onionskin paper as it is much heavier than that.
 
2013-07-10 03:12:43 PM
Translation: Let's modify it so it's simpler, but the rich still get to keep all their money.
 
2013-07-10 03:21:27 PM
I wonder how many of those pounds are there because of various loopholes, policies, and other accounting trickery that primarily benefit the wealthy and big business.
 
2013-07-10 03:27:47 PM
If you did that now, the result would just be a longer, crazier, worse mess, IF they could agree on something at all.
 
2013-07-10 03:35:13 PM

Relatively Obscure: If you did that now, the result would just be a longer, crazier, worse mess, IF they could agree on something at all.


No loopholes for corporate America, you can deduct only what you put back into the economy of the United States.  "Offshore" revenue should be taxed at double whatever the effective rate we decide on, and cash on hand should be taxed in increasing increments of 10, 20, 30%... etc. for every two years it's not spent in the United States to prevent the monetary hoarding that's currently taking place.

Also, people on the dole (food stamps, unemployment, including permanent disability unemployment, Section 8ers who are not employed full-time, etc) should have to volunteer at minimum 20 hours a week in order to receive benefits in order to give back to the taxpayers.  Churches, hospitals, food banks, schools, etc.  If you're unable to do anything physical then you can sit at a desk and answer phones or hand out flyers/condoms/clean needles.  If you can't find somewhere to volunteer then coordinate with your local DPW and start picking up trash from the sidewalk and public parks.

Our tax brackets should also mirror what they were in the 50s and 60s, which today would include a rate of 90% on incomes of over $2.5 million a year.
 
2013-07-10 03:36:10 PM

Fark It: Relatively Obscure: If you did that now, the result would just be a longer, crazier, worse mess, IF they could agree on something at all.

No loopholes for corporate America, you can deduct only what you put back into the economy of the United States.  "Offshore" revenue should be taxed at double whatever the effective rate we decide on, and cash on hand should be taxed in increasing increments of 10, 20, 30%... etc. for every two years it's not spent in the United States to prevent the monetary hoarding that's currently taking place.

Also, people on the dole (food stamps, unemployment, including permanent disability unemployment, Section 8ers who are not employed full-time, etc) should have to volunteer at minimum 20 hours a week in order to receive benefits in order to give back to the taxpayers.  Churches, hospitals, food banks, schools, etc.  If you're unable to do anything physical then you can sit at a desk and answer phones or hand out flyers/condoms/clean needles.  If you can't find somewhere to volunteer then coordinate with your local DPW and start picking up trash from the sidewalk and public parks.

Our tax brackets should also mirror what they were in the 50s and 60s, which today would include a rate of 90% on incomes of over $2.5 million a year.


Even if you were in congress, you wouldn't accomplish this.
 
2013-07-10 03:55:28 PM
It mostly comes down to the fact that US politicians will do almost anything to avoid supporting things with actual tax dollars.

They almost never say "That's a good idea; here's some money to make it happen."

Instead, they usually say "That's a good idea; if you spend some money on it, we'll lower your taxes some."

It keeps them from having to vote yes on (gasp!) spending bills, but it makes for a terribly messy tax code.

And people keep voting for these cowards, so why should they stop? Their stupid trick works.
 
2013-07-10 04:03:11 PM
With this train wreck of a Congress? No thanks
 
2013-07-10 04:09:19 PM
I think its best.  It is very long and highly complexed right now.

But we need to make sure that every side has a seat at the table when it comes to drafting the new code.
 
2013-07-10 04:12:04 PM

Fark It: No loopholes for corporate America, you can deduct only what you put back into the economy of the United States. "Offshore" revenue should be taxed at double whatever the effective rate we decide on, and cash on hand should be taxed in increasing increments of 10, 20, 30%... etc. for every two years it's not spent in the United States to prevent the monetary hoarding that's currently taking place.


Sure. That'll work.
 
2013-07-10 04:14:33 PM
There's a better waaaaaayyyy....
 
2013-07-10 04:15:10 PM
You know you could just put the whole thing on CD.
 
2013-07-10 04:19:44 PM

Fark It: Relatively Obscure: If you did that now, the result would just be a longer, crazier, worse mess, IF they could agree on something at all.

No loopholes for corporate America, you can deduct only what you put back into the economy of the United States.



Are cocaine fueled hooker parties deductible?
 
2013-07-10 04:24:55 PM

UberDave: Fark It: Relatively Obscure: If you did that now, the result would just be a longer, crazier, worse mess, IF they could agree on something at all.

No loopholes for corporate America, you can deduct only what you put back into the economy of the United States.


Are cocaine fueled hooker parties deductible?


I also believe in legalizing most drugs and prostitution, repealing the Hughes Amendment, and cutting off foreign aid for Israel (and the Palestinians, for that matter), as well as curtailing the influence of corporate America and the public sector unions.

I don't fit in anywhere because I'm quite happy taking sacred cows of the left and right and turning them into delicious cuts of freedom-steak.
 
2013-07-10 04:39:21 PM

Fark It: I don't fit in anywhere because I'm quite happy taking sacred cows of the left and right and turning them into delicious cuts of freedom-steak.


Oooooh, Oooookay.
 
2013-07-10 04:45:01 PM
Yeah, that'll happen in the current legislative environment.  I wouldn't trust those farks to agree on a lunch order at this point.

Nice idea though.  That code needs a thorough cleaning.
 
2013-07-10 04:48:59 PM
If they're going to do the overhaul, can they let us write the legislation for a change instead of the lobbyists?
 
2013-07-10 04:55:47 PM

Aarontology: I wonder how many of those pounds are there because of various loopholes, policies, and other accounting trickery that primarily benefit the wealthy and big business.


17.998 is my guess. Do we have a pool going on this?
 
2013-07-10 04:56:06 PM
It's actually not that hard to understand for 98% of people.  It's simple math.
 
2013-07-10 04:58:31 PM
How much of that is the Regs that provide helpful, illustrative examples that explain in practical terms the application of the code itself?
 
2013-07-10 05:09:01 PM

Aarontology: I wonder how many of those pounds are there because of various loopholes, policies, and other accounting trickery that primarily benefit the wealthy and big business.


Probably not as many as you think. That which benefits you also typically benefits them.

Face it, folks, the tax code will always be byzantine because you like your tax breaks too. The only way to untangle it is to say to everybody "give me 20% and shut up about it". Every little exception is more sand in the gears.
 
2013-07-10 05:10:28 PM
I agree. Let's scrap the entire federal tax code and replace it all. I suggest using a universal transaction tax.

You earn wages from an employer? Pay a tax.
You buy goods from a business? Pay a tax.
You get a monetary gift from a friend? Pay a tax.
Your dead grandfather leaves you money in his will? Pay a tax.
You buy or sell some stocks? Pay a tax.
You change money from US dollars to Euros or vice versa? Pay a tax.
 
2013-07-10 05:11:41 PM

feckingmorons: They must use onionskin paper as it is much heavier than that.


Which was the style at the time.
 
2013-07-10 05:12:13 PM
Doesn't matter if they start over or not.

There will still be stupid ignorant Americans who think they are being "taxed enough already" and will still talk a bunch of embarrassing shiat about it, solicit money over it and basically be annoying pieces of whining shiat at Thanksgiving and Christmas.
 
2013-07-10 05:13:48 PM
Easy there, tiger. Pass a budget first then we'll see if you're ready for the Big Leagues.
 
2013-07-10 05:14:00 PM
The tax code isn't that bad. There's a few changes I'd like to see:
1.) make dividends tax free
2.) tax capital gains as ordinary income
3.) tax only income earned within the US and its territory.
 
2013-07-10 05:15:05 PM
And I'm just absolutely sure any changes to "simplify" the tax code will be a huge boon for the middle and working class, because we have so much lobbying power and representation at the various nondescript sub-committees and meetings in the dark recesses of Washington where these things are ironed out.
 
2013-07-10 05:15:20 PM
"and have set a deadline for colleagues to defend individual tax preferences."
-=-
Yeah, the preferences that allow them to keep from paying taxes, but not you.

-----
"In the corporate code, every $20 billion in annual expenditures knocks up the rate by 1.5 percent."
-=-
So at what point does GE actually start to pay taxes?
----

Remember the last tax reform? How many pages did it add to the tax code?
 
2013-07-10 05:15:59 PM
assuming every one of these well to do farks have accountants who do their taxes for them, I really don't trust these people to make the decisions on this particular reform.

come to think of it, or anything for that matter.
 
2013-07-10 05:16:15 PM
"Let's overhaul the tax code!"

I think it was 1981 when I first heard this.
 
2013-07-10 05:16:29 PM
The IRS already has all the tax information it needs for the vast majority of individuals.  That's how they catch when you lie on your return.  In a lot of countries, they just send you a prepared return based off the information they've received from your employer, bank, etc.  and you sign it, provided there are no mistakes.

We could just do that here, but Intuit and the CPA lobbies want the tax code as heinous and cumbersome as possible to protect their jobs.  And everyone loves their little targeted tax breaks anyway.
 
2013-07-10 05:17:37 PM
You can't simplify without shifting the tax burden. The current code is actually fairly reasonable when you fully understand it. It's just base appeals to emotion from both sides of the aisle which gets everyone riled up about it.
 
2013-07-10 05:18:13 PM
Once again, a snarky, smug headline that bears little resemblance to the contents of the article.
 
2013-07-10 05:19:01 PM
Fine.

Have 0% paid on income earned from 0-20,000

5% on 20,001-75,000
15% on 75,001-150,000
25% on 150,000 - 250,000
35% on 250,000 - 1,000,000
45% on amounts greater than 1,000,000

I can damn near guarantee this will have a far greater positive effect (since the bulk of the people would have more money in their pockets) on the economy than cutting taxes for the rich.
 
2013-07-10 05:20:23 PM
Cool can charitable deduction not count anymore?

Do churches have to pay taxes?

People are against deductions in the abstract but when you start giving real examples they change their minds.
 
2013-07-10 05:21:03 PM
If Baucus is involved, no thanks.

If there was ever a true DINO, this guy is it.
 
2013-07-10 05:21:03 PM
It would be hilarious to watch this process if it were actually attempted.

"OK, we're starting from scratch here folks. We've hammered out the framework for a bracket system that we think is fair, and after hundreds of staffers poured through all the various forms, bylaws, deductions and loopholes these past 5 years, we think we've come up with a very streamlined system that will greatly..."

"What about single parent households that are the primary caretaker for a disabled individual, should they be able to deduct commonly used household cleaning supplies?"

"Well...yeah that seems reasonable, OK we'll add that and..."

"I don't see a tax credit for small business owners take on a small business loan to hire staff or purchase capital equipment."

"OK, we can add that too..."

"What about...."

....

"OK, after another 10 years of negotiations, we feel that this 17.5 pound revised tax code will...."

"I'd like to add in a fuel expenditure deduction for pet caretakers who also spend more than 10 hours a month volunteering their pets at local hospitals for animal therapy with pediatric cancer patients."

"Why?"

"....Because H&R Block asked me to?"
 
2013-07-10 05:21:12 PM

Lost Thought 00: You can't simplify without shifting the tax burden. The current code is actually fairly reasonable when you fully understand it. It's just base appeals to emotion from both sides of the aisle which gets everyone riled up about it.


My truism meter just lit up.
 
2013-07-10 05:23:47 PM
Minimum 1 cent transaction tax for any bank transaction, and triple that for ATM withdrawals. ( or do a calculation to see the average number of transactions cash goes through before being put back into an account ). That includes all transactions. Microtrading is included, and so are transfers of money ownership.
 
2013-07-10 05:24:00 PM
Anything Max Baucus and Orrin Hatch sign onto will be significantly more favorable to the rich and harsher to the poor and middle class than the current tax code.  They hide behind claims of complexity to disguise that they want to jack up your rates so that millionaires pay less.
 
2013-07-10 05:25:31 PM

mediablitz: "Let's overhaul the tax code!"

I think it was 1981 when I first heard this.


More like 1978.

www.calwatchdog.com
 
2013-07-10 05:26:57 PM

coyo: Minimum 1 cent transaction tax for any bank transaction, and triple that for ATM withdrawals. ( or do a calculation to see the average number of transactions cash goes through before being put back into an account ). That includes all transactions. Microtrading is included, and so are transfers of money ownership.


Per Edgar Feige in his work developing the automated payment transaction tax, It's about 2.5 transactions.
 
2013-07-10 05:28:48 PM
Yeah, this will totally happen.
 
2013-07-10 05:29:24 PM
Sorry, but when conservative sleazebags like Baucus and Hatch are involved, it already stinks to high heaven.

This thread was done in one.
 
2013-07-10 05:30:30 PM
Let's not, dumbass. What possible reason does anyone have to think that a simplified tax code is a better tax code? Remember, every "complication" in the tax code, especially those that impact normaly people's taxes, is there either for your benefit (i.e. deductions and credits) or because to not have them would result in perverse outcomes (stuff like gift taxes).
 
2013-07-10 05:30:50 PM

Stoker: Remember the last tax reform? How many pages did it add to the tax code?


Not sure if you're serious.  The last real tax reform came in 1981, and it worked out very well.  It drastically consolidated rates and reduced deductions and loopholes.  It played a significant role in the creation of the heady mid-80s and the consistent relative prosperity of the 90s.  (And yes, I'll concede that it didn't come without pain, but the results were dramatically positive and much longer-lasting than the initial sting.)

It seems inevitable that after we establish a baseline, subsequent congresses will fark it up with tweaks and gimmies and handouts until, 20 years later, it's an 18 lb. hot mess.  You need to take out the garbage from time to time, or it begins to stink up the joint.

I know it's somehow treasonous to say it, but this economy sucks and the tax code (made ever more complex, including by Obamacare) is one of the reasons we haven't seen any real growth even in the aftermath of the 2008 collapse.  Fixing the tax code is a painful but entirely achievable part of improving things.
 
2013-07-10 05:30:59 PM
Sounds good, sad that the whole thing is going to implode when the arguements over whos favorite group gets favored and whos most vilified groups gets dinged..... generally the two sides are 180 from each other on each group.
 
2013-07-10 05:31:01 PM

coyo: Minimum 1 cent transaction tax for any bank transaction, and triple that for ATM withdrawals. ( or do a calculation to see the average number of transactions cash goes through before being put back into an account ). That includes all transactions. Microtrading is included, and so are transfers of money ownership.


I'm calling Poe's Law on this one.
 
2013-07-10 05:32:01 PM

Garet Garrett: he tax code (made ever more complex, including by Obamacare) is one of the reasons we haven't seen any real growth even in the aftermath of the 2008 collapse.


Talk about a claim with absolutely nothing to back it up.
 
2013-07-10 05:32:41 PM

whidbey: Doesn't matter if they start over or not.

There will still be stupid ignorant Americans who think they are being "taxed enough already" and will still talk a bunch of embarrassing shiat about it, solicit money over it and basically be annoying pieces of whining shiat at Thanksgiving and Christmas.


that and also the loopholes and shenanigans corporations and lobbyists will get in there...
 
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