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(Orlando Sentinel)   Will the defense rest? Will the verdict come through today? Will Florida erupt into a violent riot? Tune it to find out. It's your official George Zimmerman Trial discussion thread   (orlandosentinel.com) divider line 1917
    More: Florida, George Zimmerman, Judges' Rules, verdicts, riots, computer animation  
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2549 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jul 2013 at 9:53 AM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-10 08:09:27 AM
GO TO AA NOW!

Seriously, yesterday's developments were absolutely unbelievable.  This should be an interesting day.
 
2013-07-10 08:17:14 AM
To make it even better, it's been confirmed that there was a defense witness in the courtroom audience on one of the first few days of the trial, in violation of the sequester order from the judge.
 
2013-07-10 08:19:04 AM
I can't keep drinking like this.

Seriously, the most interesting parts of yesterday were after the jury was dismissed for the day and we started hearing about what the prosecution does not want the jury to see from that cell phone.

And don't give me this 'authentication issue' bullshiat. We all know if that phone contained unauthenticated text messages in which Martin talked about volunteering at the homeless shelter, teaching little kids to read, and photographs of him in his church choir robes that shiat would've already been seen by the jury because the judge would've said 'that goes to weight, not admissibility.'
 
2013-07-10 08:24:00 AM
Your honor, I'd like to move for a bad court thingie.
 
2013-07-10 08:24:37 AM
What's the standard on this? "beyond a reasonable doubt"?

Assume crash positions please.
 
2013-07-10 08:26:25 AM

heili skrimsli: the judge would've said 'that goes to weight, not admissibility.'


It's amazing how many judges fall for that bullsh*t explanation.
 
2013-07-10 08:27:03 AM
I was having DTs, man.
 
2013-07-10 08:27:32 AM
I hope they find out who the real killer is.  They never found out who killed Abraham Lincoln, either.  The two cases could be connected.  I'm just saying.
 
2013-07-10 08:33:16 AM

The Muthaship: heili skrimsli: the judge would've said 'that goes to weight, not admissibility.'

It's amazing how many judges fall for that bullsh*t explanation.


The only reason the mobile phone data isn't being allowed is because it's the final nail in the state's case that Trayvon Martin was the poor, innocent, pacifist set upon by the evil, murderous vigilante. All that crap about how a 7 year-old could have sent those messages was nothing more than a made up excuse to deny admission of evidence that Trayvon Martin was exactly the kind of guy who would have gone home or hidden, then come back to exact some kind of punishment for George Zimmerman having disrespected him that involved a beat down.

Because it's clear that Martin had a penchant for fighting and his strategy included 'ground and pound.'
 
2013-07-10 08:37:51 AM

heili skrimsli: The only reason the mobile phone data isn't being allowed is because it's the final nail in the state's case


I wasn't really commenting about that.  I was just pointing out that lots of judges don't really have a full grasp of the rules of evidence.

/I don't necessarily disagree with your post, either,
 
2013-07-10 08:47:48 AM

The Muthaship: heili skrimsli: The only reason the mobile phone data isn't being allowed is because it's the final nail in the state's case

I wasn't really commenting about that.  I was just pointing out that lots of judges don't really have a full grasp of the rules of evidence.

/I don't necessarily disagree with your post, either,


They sure as hell don't appear to understand how electronics work.  Validation?  Some kid playing with the phone could have texted his friends about his fighting?  Ass-cracker please.
 
2013-07-10 08:48:39 AM

The Muthaship: heili skrimsli: The only reason the mobile phone data isn't being allowed is because it's the final nail in the state's case

I wasn't really commenting about that.  I was just pointing out that lots of judges don't really have a full grasp of the rules of evidence.

/I don't necessarily disagree with your post, either,


That 'full grasp' they lack is what gets them known as 'tough on crime'. I don't think it's always ignorance. I think it's willful desire for convictions in order to make them look more appealing to the voting public. Even in places where judges are appointed, those who appoint them are usually elected officials who like to point out to the voters that they are 'tough on crime.'

I really wonder, as team J4T applauds this judge's actions in this trial, are they thinking about how many black defendants she has very possibly railroaded into jail/prison despite their actual innocence?
 
2013-07-10 08:48:54 AM

heili skrimsli: The Muthaship: heili skrimsli: the judge would've said 'that goes to weight, not admissibility.'

It's amazing how many judges fall for that bullsh*t explanation.

The only reason the mobile phone data isn't being allowed is because it's the final nail in the state's case that Trayvon Martin was the poor, innocent, pacifist set upon by the evil, murderous vigilante. All that crap about how a 7 year-old could have sent those messages was nothing more than a made up excuse to deny admission of evidence that Trayvon Martin was exactly the kind of guy who would have gone home or hidden, then come back to exact some kind of punishment for George Zimmerman having disrespected him that involved a beat down.

Because it's clear that Martin had a penchant for fighting and his strategy included 'ground and pound.'


In the end, though, does it really matter if Martin was an asshole or an angel? Doesn't Florida's law basically just require you to fear harm to defend yourself?

Am I missing something?
 
2013-07-10 08:50:35 AM
I am curious to see if the judge allows the computer recreation of the incident to be shown to the jury.
 
2013-07-10 08:52:09 AM
Oh yea...maybe this was brought up in a previous thread.  So Trayvon had marijuana in his system.  Shouldn't that have made him mellower?  It's not like it was PCP.
 
2013-07-10 08:52:55 AM

dr_blasto: heili skrimsli: The Muthaship: heili skrimsli: the judge would've said 'that goes to weight, not admissibility.'

It's amazing how many judges fall for that bullsh*t explanation.

The only reason the mobile phone data isn't being allowed is because it's the final nail in the state's case that Trayvon Martin was the poor, innocent, pacifist set upon by the evil, murderous vigilante. All that crap about how a 7 year-old could have sent those messages was nothing more than a made up excuse to deny admission of evidence that Trayvon Martin was exactly the kind of guy who would have gone home or hidden, then come back to exact some kind of punishment for George Zimmerman having disrespected him that involved a beat down.

Because it's clear that Martin had a penchant for fighting and his strategy included 'ground and pound.'

In the end, though, does it really matter if Martin was an asshole or an angel? Doesn't Florida's law basically just require you to fear harm to defend yourself?

Am I missing something?


His propensity to dish out a ground-and-pound beating and fight people he thought disrespected him means more evidence for reasonable doubt to the idea that it was George Zimmerman who attacked first.

His lack of desire to stop beating someone once they were on the ground bloody while he was mounting them adds weight to the idea that he wasn't going to stop beating Zimmerman on his own and could easily have killed Zimmerman.
 
2013-07-10 08:52:57 AM

dr_blasto: heili skrimsli: The Muthaship: heili skrimsli: the judge would've said 'that goes to weight, not admissibility.'

It's amazing how many judges fall for that bullsh*t explanation.

The only reason the mobile phone data isn't being allowed is because it's the final nail in the state's case that Trayvon Martin was the poor, innocent, pacifist set upon by the evil, murderous vigilante. All that crap about how a 7 year-old could have sent those messages was nothing more than a made up excuse to deny admission of evidence that Trayvon Martin was exactly the kind of guy who would have gone home or hidden, then come back to exact some kind of punishment for George Zimmerman having disrespected him that involved a beat down.

Because it's clear that Martin had a penchant for fighting and his strategy included 'ground and pound.'

In the end, though, does it really matter if Martin was an asshole or an angel? Doesn't Florida's law basically just require you to fear harm to defend yourself?

Am I missing something?


Please don't cloud the issue with facts. We don't want people to think that the truth is a good thing.
 
2013-07-10 08:54:24 AM
dr_blasto:
In the end, though, does it really matter if Martin was an asshole or an angel? Doesn't Florida's law basically just require you to fear harm to defend yourself?

Am I missing something?


Juries.  What will they eat up?  Hint:  It isn't statutes and boring stuff.
 
2013-07-10 08:54:31 AM

BizarreMan: Oh yea...maybe this was brought up in a previous thread.  So Trayvon had marijuana in his system.  Shouldn't that have made him mellower?  It's not like it was PCP.


It changes the 'profiling' of Zimmerman's statement that he looked like he was on drugs to being a correct assessment of Martin.

And if you want to go there, the defense could even argue that the prosecution's suggestion that Martin was 'reasonably in fear' of Zimmerman is bullshiat because THC intoxication causes paranoia.
 
2013-07-10 08:57:56 AM

BizarreMan: I am curious to see if the judge allows the computer recreation of the incident to be shown to the jury.


I think we should throw out all evidence from all trials going forward and only permit animations from that funny Taiwanese company.

Jury duty would be alot more amusing, at least.
 
2013-07-10 09:05:22 AM

kerrigand: Please don't cloud the issue with facts. We don't want people to think that the truth is a good thing.


Well, you've stated Judge Marsupial's position quite clearly.
 
2013-07-10 09:08:14 AM

nekom: dr_blasto:
In the end, though, does it really matter if Martin was an asshole or an angel? Doesn't Florida's law basically just require you to fear harm to defend yourself?

Am I missing something?

Juries.  What will they eat up?  Hint:  It isn't statutes and boring stuff.


I guess, I'm not following the stuff close enough to know what's really going on. It just sounds like the defense just needs to show Zimmerman was afraid for his safety. The fact they were fighting is t contested. This sounds like it may have been a better idea to waive the jury trial and argue to the judge, but this judge also sounds like a bit of a nut. I still don't understand why he didn't do the stand your ground defense.
 
2013-07-10 09:09:35 AM

dr_blasto: I still don't understand why he didn't do the stand your ground defense.


The premise of standing your ground applies to situations where you can flee.

Fleeing is not an option when your attacker is straddling your chest and beating you.
 
2013-07-10 09:13:49 AM
Big surprise, the animation and the phone data are out.
 
2013-07-10 09:14:13 AM

dr_blasto: 't statutes and boring stuff.
I guess, I'm not following the stuff close enough to know what's really going on. It just sounds like the defense just needs to show Zimmerman was afraid for his safety. The fact they were fighting is t contested. This sounds like it may have been a better idea to waive the jury trial and argue to the judge, but this judge also sounds like a bit of a nut. I still don't understand why he didn't do the stand your ground defense.


Right, and more importantly, the prosecution has to prove that he committed 2nd degree murder, and they have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt.  Anyone capable of evaluating the facts objectively will reach the conclusion that they have failed to do so.  But with enough emotion, who knows.  I mean, a 17 year old kid is dead, and that DOES definitely suck.  The prosecution needs to tug at the jury's emotions, while the defense basically just has to say "Look, law.  Enough reasonable doubt to drive an aircraft carrier through."

/my guess, either acquittal or hung jury
 
2013-07-10 09:14:34 AM
State blocks animation and Martin's texts
 
2013-07-10 09:15:06 AM

heili skrimsli: dr_blasto: I still don't understand why he didn't do the stand your ground defense.

The premise of standing your ground applies to situations where you can flee.

Fleeing is not an option when your attacker is straddling your chest and beating you.


So, he couldn't invoke that because Martin was on top? That's a little weird. I recall reading somewhere that, for FL at least, that you could invoke SYG and pretty much avoid trial. So, at issue, he has less self-defense legal protections if he's unable to flee?
 
2013-07-10 09:17:22 AM

heili skrimsli: Big surprise, the animation and the phone data are out.


The animation SHOULD be out.  The phone data should not, this is ridiculous.
 
2013-07-10 09:18:32 AM
So what's going on right now? Just tuned into the live stream and court is in recess. Are they in a meeting in the judges chambers or did somebody have to poop?
 
2013-07-10 09:18:35 AM

dr_blasto: So, at issue, he has less self-defense legal protections if he's unable to flee?


He had more, local law enforcement investigated and chose not to pursue charges at all. Then the Martin family started a propaganda blitz, and NBC aired a nationwide version with deliberately altered information, and people at the national level jumped in and insisted on a trial and conviction.
 
2013-07-10 09:19:25 AM

nekom: dr_blasto: 't statutes and boring stuff.
I guess, I'm not following the stuff close enough to know what's really going on. It just sounds like the defense just needs to show Zimmerman was afraid for his safety. The fact they were fighting is t contested. This sounds like it may have been a better idea to waive the jury trial and argue to the judge, but this judge also sounds like a bit of a nut. I still don't understand why he didn't do the stand your ground defense.

Right, and more importantly, the prosecution has to prove that he committed 2nd degree murder, and they have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt.  Anyone capable of evaluating the facts objectively will reach the conclusion that they have failed to do so.  But with enough emotion, who knows.  I mean, a 17 year old kid is dead, and that DOES definitely suck.  The prosecution needs to tug at the jury's emotions, while the defense basically just has to say "Look, law.  Enough reasonable doubt to drive an aircraft carrier through."

/my guess, either acquittal or hung jury


Well the whole 2nd degree murder thing is absolutely ridiculous. I could see reasonable cases for manslaughter of some form, he did shoot Martin after all, but murder seems a bit much with a higher standard requiring intent and all kinds of stuff that just doesn't fit with anyone's description of that evening. The fact he didn't just blast Martin when he first encountered him kind of pushes the murder bit off the field.
 
2013-07-10 09:21:41 AM

dr_blasto: heili skrimsli: dr_blasto: I still don't understand why he didn't do the stand your ground defense.

The premise of standing your ground applies to situations where you can flee.

Fleeing is not an option when your attacker is straddling your chest and beating you.

So, he couldn't invoke that because Martin was on top? That's a little weird. I recall reading somewhere that, for FL at least, that you could invoke SYG and pretty much avoid trial. So, at issue, he has less self-defense legal protections if he's unable to flee?


Correct, he, at that point had no option of flight so the premise of SYG is gone. The only options that he had at that point was to lay there, take the beating and possibly die from it, or alleviate the problem. Which he did.
 
2013-07-10 09:22:21 AM

dr_blasto: heili skrimsli: dr_blasto: I still don't understand why he didn't do the stand your ground defense.

The premise of standing your ground applies to situations where you can flee.

Fleeing is not an option when your attacker is straddling your chest and beating you.

So, he couldn't invoke that because Martin was on top? That's a little weird. I recall reading somewhere that, for FL at least, that you could invoke SYG and pretty much avoid trial. So, at issue, he has less self-defense legal protections if he's unable to flee?


SYG isn't really something you 'invoke'. It's more about whether or not there's a presumption that if you could potentially flee, you should have. The point of it is specifically to handle situations in which 'why didn't he/she just run away?' is asked, and it moves the assumption that you have no duty to flee your home to covering everywhere you can legally be.

The actual 'stand your ground' language is a single explanatory phrase in the text of the law that uses it to indicate that one has no legal duty to flee.

nekom: The animation SHOULD be out. The phone data should not, this is ridiculous.


Agreed. And after listening to Connor yesterday, I think it's blatantly obvious that the state committed a Brady violation when they knowingly gave the defense a Cellbrite report indicating that less photographs and text messages existed than were actually on the phone.
 
2013-07-10 09:22:28 AM

dr_blasto: heili skrimsli: dr_blasto: I still don't understand why he didn't do the stand your ground defense.

The premise of standing your ground applies to situations where you can flee.

Fleeing is not an option when your attacker is straddling your chest and beating you.

So, he couldn't invoke that because Martin was on top? That's a little weird. I recall reading somewhere that, for FL at least, that you could invoke SYG and pretty much avoid trial. So, at issue, he has less self-defense legal protections if he's unable to flee?


Once, self defense laws required you to try and get away, to avoid the confrontation. A "duty to retreat"
Then came Castle Doctrine, which amended the prior requirement to say you didn't have to try and get away if you were in your home, as it's your "castle" and your right to defend it.
Now, they have amended the law to say as long as you are in a place you have a right to be, your business, a public park, etc, and are not committing a crime, you do not have that duty to retreat if attacked, but instead can "stand your ground"

That's all the mythical "SYG law", which isn't really a law, is. A removal of the duty to retreat in a place you have a right to be.

Since TM had GZ pinned, there was no way he could retreat, so even if he had a duty to retreat he could not, making SYG irrelevant.
 
2013-07-10 09:23:12 AM

Boojum2k: dr_blasto: So, at issue, he has less self-defense legal protections if he's unable to flee?

He had more, local law enforcement investigated and chose not to pursue charges at all. Then the Martin family started a propaganda blitz, and NBC aired a nationwide version with deliberately altered information, and people at the national level jumped in and insisted on a trial and conviction.


Right, but SYG would provide immunity here, isn't he going for an affirmative defense? I know there was a whole campaign pushing for charges but, in the end, he ends up going through this whereas SYG could have prevented this altogether, no?
 
2013-07-10 09:25:52 AM
We're live.
 
2013-07-10 09:26:42 AM

ChaosStar: That's all the mythical "SYG law", which isn't really a law, is. A removal of the duty to retreat in a place you have a right to be.


Nice to see we're on the same page this morning.

dr_blasto: Right, but SYG would provide immunity here, isn't he going for an affirmative defense? I know there was a whole campaign pushing for charges but, in the end, he ends up going through this whereas SYG could have prevented this altogether, no?


The so-termed 'Stand Your Ground' hearing would have, yes.

I do not know exactly why O'Mara and West waived the hearing, but you need to be aware that the premise of 'standing your ground' doesn't apply here, and never did, because a person who is mounted has no ability to flee, and thus cannot have a requirement to do so.
 
2013-07-10 09:28:47 AM
The judge is a f*cking nit wit. If by some stretch he gets convicted, she left a million reasons for appeal.
 
2013-07-10 09:30:46 AM

WTFDYW: The judge is a f*cking nit wit. If by some stretch he gets convicted, she left a million reasons for appeal.


I would have been held in contempt had I been on that jury.
 
2013-07-10 09:31:19 AM

WTFDYW: The judge is a f*cking nit wit. If by some stretch he gets convicted, she left a million reasons for appeal.


She probably sees that as the ultimately best outcome.  He gets convicted, and the mob is appeased.  Then when the appeals court tosses it, they've lost interest.
 
2013-07-10 09:33:15 AM

The Muthaship: Then when the appeals court tosses it, they've lost interest.


There's no way the media would let that happen.
 
2013-07-10 09:37:52 AM

Popcorn Johnny: The Muthaship: Then when the appeals court tosses it, they've lost interest.

There's no way the media would let that happen.


It would be hard for the media to maintain it with nothing happening for probably a year or more to keep people ginned up about it.  But, you may be right.
 
2013-07-10 09:38:54 AM

The Muthaship: WTFDYW: The judge is a f*cking nit wit. If by some stretch he gets convicted, she left a million reasons for appeal.

She probably sees that as the ultimately best outcome.  He gets convicted, and the mob is appeased.  Then when the appeals court tosses it, they've lost interest.


Perhaps.  But still, not her job.
 
2013-07-10 09:43:17 AM

Diogenes: But still, not her job.


Totally agree.
 
2013-07-10 09:55:47 AM

nekom: Your honor, I'd like to move for a bad court thingie.


This is why I want my lawyer to watch Matlock with the sound ON.
 
2013-07-10 09:55:54 AM
Defense rests today
Verdict by Friday
Riots on Saturday

There you go FLA, your weekend is planned for you.
 
2013-07-10 09:57:10 AM
Did they end up starting at 8? or she just came back and ruled?
 
2013-07-10 09:57:11 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: There you go FLA, your weekend is planned for you.


So is mine. Nothing better than kicking back with a few beers and watching people tear shiat up.
 
2013-07-10 09:58:43 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: Defense rests today
Verdict by Friday
Riots on Saturday

There you go FLA, your weekend is planned for you.


unless it's a conviction, then it's spontaneous celebration booty popping dances dances on car hoods at gas stations on Saturday.
 
2013-07-10 09:58:58 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: Defense rests today
Verdict by Friday
Riots on Saturday

There you go FLA, your weekend is planned for you.


This might be the first time I rooted for a hurricane.
 
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