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(The Atlantic Wire)   Orson Scott Card adresses efforts to boycott "Ender's Game" because of the author's outspoken opposition to gay marriage. Short version: You godless heathens and filthy sodomites won, now stop oppressing me   (theatlanticwire.com) divider line 587
    More: Dumbass, boycotts, marriages  
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6738 clicks; posted to Geek » on 09 Jul 2013 at 10:23 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-09 06:55:11 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Isn't that wrong of them to do? To try to silence opposing political views through economic intimidation?

I think so. I think we should all stop that sort of thing.


Are you on NOM's message boards doing this?
 
2013-07-09 06:57:54 PM

Lutrasimilis: Are you on NOM's message boards doing this?


No. Why? Why would I be? Are you?
 
2013-07-09 07:00:46 PM

BojanglesPaladin: No. Why? Why would I be? Are you?


Well, because you said it should stop, and right now they've got a list of 150+ companies that they're punishing in the way you so obviously oppose.

Maybe you should go over there and have a word with them, that's all.
 
2013-07-09 07:02:38 PM
thumbs.anyclip.com

Sorry about the up yours Nigel
 
2013-07-09 07:03:53 PM
I didn't see Peter in the trailer.
 
2013-07-09 07:04:17 PM

Diogenes: kronicfeld: "We disagreed" is an utterly disingenuous characterization of the "debate."

As is:

"Ender's Game is set more than a century in the future and has nothing to do with political issues that did not exist when the book was written in 1984. "

That's like saying there was no racism during the slavery era.


To be fair, gay marriage unequivocally did not exist as a political issue in the 1984. You could find some one-offs here and there but there was no group of people asking for it.
 
2013-07-09 07:09:54 PM

BojanglesPaladin: But we should not be trying to punish them or silence them for thinking differently, or for advocating something we find morally repugnant. And on a thread dealing with homosexuality, I would think it is obvious exactly why.


But it's not that OSC is THINKING differently, he's actively attempting to oppress gays. I have family members who hate gay people. You know what they don't do? They don't become chairmen of organizations that exist solely to oppress gays. Orson Scott Card can think whatever he wants and I'll turn a blind eye to it, the same way I turn a blind eye to the fact that my sister-in-law thinks gay people are all going to hell. But the second he acts to oppress others we have every right to attempt to stop him. And if that means shaming him until he no longer dares voice his opinions in public, that's fine. Because I have no problem living in a society where bigots don't feel comfortable speaking their mind on a soapbox made of my money (meaning, OSC wouldn't have the bullhorn he has if people hadn't bought a bunch of books from him and made him wealthy before he informed all of us he was a bigot).

So again, we're not shaming him because of what he thinks, we're shaming him because of what he does.
 
2013-07-09 07:11:40 PM

Lutrasimilis: Well, because you said it should stop, and right now they've got a list of 150+ companies that they're punishing in the way you so obviously oppose. Maybe you should go over there and have a word with them, that's all.


Tell you what, when an article gets Greenlit on Fark about THEIR Boycotts (and I notice it), I will just cut-n-paste from this thread to that one, ok?

Are we agreed that it's bad for the goose and the Gander then?
 
2013-07-09 07:13:35 PM
Ender's Game is on my daughter's high school summer reading list (the school admits they picked it because they wanted to guarantee the kids will read at least one book on the list, as they're positive most of the kids are going to blow off "the classics" they also assigned.)  My daughter, though, has heard all the anti-LGBT rhetoric and really doesn't want to read the book.  Is it really that bad?  I don't remember reading it.
 
2013-07-09 07:16:11 PM

StewMcG: Ender's Game is on my daughter's high school summer reading list (the school admits they picked it because they wanted to guarantee the kids will read at least one book on the list, as they're positive most of the kids are going to blow off "the classics" they also assigned.)  My daughter, though, has heard all the anti-LGBT rhetoric and really doesn't want to read the book.  Is it really that bad?  I don't remember reading it.


The book itself really doesn't have any sexuality in it, not that I can remember. If you can check out the book from a library, that'll probably make sure none of her/your money goes to OSC. On the other hand, she could blow off that book and read Brave New World or 1984, instead, and then explain to her English teacher in the fall why she did that.
 
2013-07-09 07:19:55 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Lutrasimilis: Well, because you said it should stop, and right now they've got a list of 150+ companies that they're punishing in the way you so obviously oppose. Maybe you should go over there and have a word with them, that's all.

Tell you what, when an article gets Greenlit on Fark about THEIR Boycotts (and I notice it), I will just cut-n-paste from this thread to that one, ok?

Are we agreed that it's bad for the goose and the Gander then?


No, I don't think you will. You came looking for soft-target hypocrisy and got owned by facts you weren't ready for. Even in retreat, you're still groping for false equivalency and you're not going to find it.

Of course, you could head on over to NOM and prove me wrong...but I doubt you will. Perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised!

Cheers.
 
2013-07-09 07:24:34 PM

Mike Chewbacca: So again, we're not shaming him because of what he thinks, we're shaming him because of what he does.


A) You aren't just shaming him, though are you? You aren't just using your free speech to criticize and ridicule and embarrass him. You are lobbying your peers to "punish" him and teach him a lesson, and get him to stop and all of that. You are arguing that it is acceptable to try to silence him through economic intimidation because he holds THIS unpopular viewpoint, espouses it, and advocates for it is simply unacceptable. As determined by you.

B) What he DOES, it advocate vigorously for his viewpoint within the legal framework of our system. No different from what you or I or any other person who opposes him do. In YOUR viewpoint he is trying to "oppress gays". In HIS viewpoint, he is probably trying to preserve the moral fabric of society for degenerating. These viewpoints, regardless of whether or not we agree with them are equally valid and legitimate. (Though they obviously do not have the same merit). He is every bit as entitled to do all he can to legally advance his cause as the rest of us are entitled to advance ours.

What we should not be motivated to do is intentionally seek to have him silenced or quashed simply because we strongly disagree with his viewpoint or his legal actions to advance his agenda.

I'm really not sure why you continue to have such a hard time understanding this important distinction, but I guess I should thank you for so many opportunities to refine and clarify it :)
 
2013-07-09 07:25:04 PM

Mike Chewbacca: StewMcG: Ender's Game is on my daughter's high school summer reading list (the school admits they picked it because they wanted to guarantee the kids will read at least one book on the list, as they're positive most of the kids are going to blow off "the classics" they also assigned.)  My daughter, though, has heard all the anti-LGBT rhetoric and really doesn't want to read the book.  Is it really that bad?  I don't remember reading it.

The book itself really doesn't have any sexuality in it, not that I can remember. If you can check out the book from a library, that'll probably make sure none of her/your money goes to OSC. On the other hand, she could blow off that book and read Brave New World or 1984, instead, and then explain to her English teacher in the fall why she did that.


She read Brave New World last year and 1984 is on this year's list.  lol  My daughter said she'd borrow it from the library and write an essay on why she doesn't support the writer's beliefs and dedicate the essay to her cousin who is bisexual and her grandfather who is gay.  Hopefully her teacher "gets" her point.  If not, oh well.  I support her decision either way and refuse to punish her for a negative grade on this assignment.
 
2013-07-09 07:26:36 PM

Silly_Sot: Why is it 100% moral, perfect, and humane to boycott a product because someone involved in it has conservative views (Ender's Game) but stupid and intolerant to boycott a product because someone involved in it has liberal views (Dixie Chicks records)?

Let me guess, it's just another example of dogmatic hypocrisy.


People merely weren't boycotting The Dixie Chicks.  They were calling them traitors and terrorist sympathizers.  They were getting so many death threats that they required a 24-hour FBI protection detail for months.  The agent-in-charge said he had never seen such detailed threats of extreme violence, rape, and torture in his entire career.

/Both sides are bad, though.
 
2013-07-09 07:27:09 PM

Lutrasimilis: You came looking for soft-target hypocrisy and got owned by facts you weren't ready for.


The fark are you even talking about? What "Facts"? You just walked in and start talking about "owned" and you don't even understand the conversation. You haven't even yet figured out that you probably don't disagree with me. And I'm sure you think I support OSC, which I certainly do not.

Fly away Seagull.
 
2013-07-09 07:33:11 PM

that bosnian sniper: FuryOfFirestorm: OSC is on the board of directors for NOM.

And your point here is what, exactly? The man is entitled to his beliefs, and yes, even his political affiliations. No matter how repulsive they are. Judge the work on its own merits, not any given political belief of the author, especially when that belief has little if anything to do with the subject material. This wrongful idea that a work can have no merit if its creator hasn't amendable political and religious beliefs is anti-pluralist and has to go.


Hey look...there goes the point! You just missed it!

I never said that his writing was made worse or better by his beliefs or alternate vocations. I was saying that the reason people are boycotting OSC's books and upcoming movie is because he puts his time and money toward ensuring that gays remain second-class citizens.
 
2013-07-09 07:34:03 PM
I still don't see it. Nobody is forced to boycott. People are free to subvert the boycott by attending the movie now when they wouldn't before. There is no coercion. There is no force. I don't see a blight in' thing wrong with a voluntary boycott regardless of the underlying aim. As long as it's voluntary.
 
2013-07-09 07:35:23 PM

BojanglesPaladin: A) You aren't just shaming him, though are you? You aren't just using your free speech to criticize and ridicule and embarrass him. You are lobbying your peers to "punish" him and teach him a lesson, and get him to stop and all of that. You are arguing that it is acceptable to try to silence him through economic intimidation because he holds THIS unpopular viewpoint, espouses it, and advocates for it is simply unacceptable. As determined by you.


Yes, I'm also using my free speech to get other people to boycott him. Just like One Million Moms does. Because money is power, and the more money he has, the more powerful he is, and because every dime he gets is another dime he can spend on his hate machine organization. You have a very funny concept of the Constitution if you think there's something wrong with using free speech in this way.

BojanglesPaladin: B) What he DOES, it advocate vigorously for his viewpoint within the legal framework of our system. No different from what you or I or any other person who opposes him do.


Well, it IS different from what you and I do because as far as I know, neither one of us is a chairman for an Anti-OSC organization.

BojanglesPaladin: What we should not be motivated to do is intentionally seek to have him silenced or quashed simply because we strongly disagree with his viewpoint or his legal actions to advance his agenda.


Bullshiat. Societies exist to control individuals. One of the ways we control individuals is through shame. If Christians can slut-shame, then we can bigot-shame.

BojanglesPaladin: I'm really not sure why you continue to have such a hard time understanding this important distinction, but I guess I should thank you for so many opportunities to refine and clarify it :)


Because it's farking retarded? What we are attempting to do to OSC is no different than people showing up to counter-protest the Westboro Baptist Church.
 
2013-07-09 07:35:34 PM

StewMcG: My daughter said she'd borrow it from the library and write an essay on why she doesn't support the writer's beliefs and dedicate the essay to her cousin who is bisexual and her grandfather who is gay. Hopefully her teacher "gets" her point.


What exactly *IS* that point? Just curious.

Ender's Game is mediocre but almost entirely devoid of sexuality and none of Card's rampant homophobia, which apparently afflicted him well after it was written. Would it just be "I hate the author because he's a homophobe"? Nothing wrong with taking that position, but if I were her teacher I would give her an "F" because the assignment was about the book, not the Author.

/CSB. I once wrote a brilliant essay on why I thought the "what did you do last summer" topic was a worn out and pointless exercise for hacks and offered nothing of value. My teacher also "got" the point. And I got her point with a "F".
//If you want the book taken off the list, have her write a letter to the Principal, the Teacher, and the school board explaining why. It's not as snotty, won't get a bad grade, and will probably have a better effect.
 
2013-07-09 07:37:28 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Holy hell, I'm glad I left this thread earlier when it was just moderately insane.

Economic terrorism?

For fark's sake, this thread has hit a level of trolling that I haven't seen in a while.


No I can see Libertarians using the terrorism claim in this manner because profits are above everything else, even morals, so in their view, a boycott would be considered an act of terrorism.
 
2013-07-09 07:42:55 PM
STOP THE THREAD

Ran out of popcorn, just gimme a couple minutes to make more.
 
2013-07-09 07:44:03 PM
Black people should have just made a personal decision not to support businesses that discriminated against them. It was rather unseemly and impolite that they spoke to other like-minded people and organized in the public sphere to make their displeasure known. Why take it out on that local Walgreen's? It was just some franchisee following orders.
 
2013-07-09 07:44:32 PM

Mike Chewbacca: Bullshiat. Societies exist to control individuals. One of the ways we control individuals is through shame. If Christians can slut-shame, then we can bigot-shame.


Again, I SUGGESTED that you use shame. Are you skimming posts again?

BojanglesPaladin: It is ours to criticize, ridicule, lambast, debate, oppose, and in all ways legally available to us seek to counteract the effects of those whom we disagree with. Put all the pressure you would like. Shame is a particularly effective one, even today.


But we should not be trying to punish them or silence them for thinking differently, or for advocating something we find morally repugnant. And on a thread dealing with homosexuality, I would think it is obvious exactly why.

Mike, I'm sorry. You cannot or will not get this. As I have said before, I'm not explaining it in a way that you understand or something. A few here get the fine distinction, but I am failing to articulate it effectively in a way that "clicks" with you. I swear you almost had a time or two.

You think it's OK, because he's a really, really bad man. I don't think it's OK even when it's a really, really bad man. Especially then.

At this point, I'm just cut and pasting from my own posts to save myself the effort of retyping the same responses over and over,

I have other things to get to (like the gym, I think I'm supposed to say?) but I wanted to specifically acknowledge and thank you for a long, lengthy, vigorous debate where you stayed pretty civil and on topic. One of the reasons I come here is to hone my thinking and arguments against those who do not share my views and you have been an excellent whetstone today.

So thanks. Have a good evening and now we can both go out and not give Orson Scott card any of our money :)
 
2013-07-09 07:45:24 PM

BojanglesPaladin: StewMcG: My daughter said she'd borrow it from the library and write an essay on why she doesn't support the writer's beliefs and dedicate the essay to her cousin who is bisexual and her grandfather who is gay. Hopefully her teacher "gets" her point.

What exactly *IS* that point? Just curious.

Ender's Game is mediocre but almost entirely devoid of sexuality and none of Card's rampant homophobia, which apparently afflicted him well after it was written. Would it just be "I hate the author because he's a homophobe"? Nothing wrong with taking that position, but if I were her teacher I would give her an "F" because the assignment was about the book, not the Author.

/CSB. I once wrote a brilliant essay on why I thought the "what did you do last summer" topic was a worn out and pointless exercise for hacks and offered nothing of value. My teacher also "got" the point. And I got her point with a "F".
//If you want the book taken off the list, have her write a letter to the Principal, the Teacher, and the school board explaining why. It's not as snotty, won't get a bad grade, and will probably have a better effect.


Her point would be "I read the book that was assigned as 'required reading' even though I don't support or believe the same things the author does" and provide reasons why she came to that point.  If her teacher chooses to give her a failing grade for this, then so be it.  I'm not going to punish her for standing up for her beliefs; however, I have made it clear that she needs to live with this possibility (as I refuse to intervene on her behalf with the teacher if her 1st marking period grade is lower than usual because of this essay.)

I will also encourage her to copy the school administration on her essay/letter of complaint.  Maybe they'll see that picking a book by a controversial author as "required reading" at a school with a very active "gay/straight alliance" club may not be a good idea.  I know she has friends who are flat-out refusing to read the book because of this issue.
 
2013-07-09 07:47:49 PM

StewMcG: Her point would be "I read the book that was assigned as 'required reading' even though I don't support or believe the same things the author does"


Thanks. I missed that it was REQUIRED, not one on a list to choose from. I would still suggest she do the assignment and append her complaint separately, but good on you for teaching her to stand on principles.

Gotta go. Have a nice evening.
 
2013-07-09 07:50:36 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Mike, I'm sorry. You cannot or will not get this. As I have said before, I'm not explaining it in a way that you understand or something. A few here get the fine distinction, but I am failing to articulate it effectively in a way that "clicks" with you. I swear you almost had a time or two.


Yeah, I'm not the only one, dude. In fact, the only other person who seems to support what you're saying is a threadshiatting troll. So you're just going to have to be comfortable with the fact that you are advocating something that nobody else supports. Keep on keeping on though. Maybe in 30 years we'll catch up with you, Lone Dissenter of Reason.
 
2013-07-09 07:51:14 PM

give me doughnuts: Some Bass Playing Guy: I enjoyed Ender's Game.

But Card can EABOD.

This.

I read the book before I knew anything about his views. Hell, back then I wasn't sure of my own opinions on homosexuality and gay-rights.


^ Agreed... i read all of ender and bean, the only ones really worth is is bean1 and ender1
 
2013-07-09 07:53:19 PM

xalres: Latinwolf: Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: bukijin: I loved the book when I was a kid. Didn't try and re-read it since then.

So I have to first politically vet every author, filmmaker, actor, artist and entertainer before I know if I can enjoy their art ??

Nah, but when you find out an artist is a mega-douchenozzle, you'll probably find that their art seems to lose its attraction.

More so when they are members of and / or supporting groups that try to take rights away from other people. Then it goes pass just having a personal opinion.

And this point is what certain people in this thread are...well I can only call it willfully ignoring because it's been stated and restated in big, bold letters over and over. Notice that none of them have addressed this point and instead have stuck to arguing with straw men that are dumping on OSC and whatever other people/businesses we're talking about because they have differing opinions.


There's so many strawmen being dumped in this thread, Christopher Lee and a bunch of druids are going to set it on fire to insure a good harvest.
 
2013-07-09 07:58:10 PM

Mike Chewbacca: BojanglesPaladin: Mike, I'm sorry. You cannot or will not get this. As I have said before, I'm not explaining it in a way that you understand or something. A few here get the fine distinction, but I am failing to articulate it effectively in a way that "clicks" with you. I swear you almost had a time or two.

Yeah, I'm not the only one, dude. In fact, the only other person who seems to support what you're saying is a threadshiatting troll. So you're just going to have to be comfortable with the fact that you are advocating something that nobody else supports. Keep on keeping on though. Maybe in 30 years we'll catch up with you, Lone Dissenter of Reason.


You just don't understand. When he boycotts something it is all fine and dandy. But when you boycott something it is bad because you are doing it with malice in your heart. If you do not give money to people you disagree with, you are punishing them and attempting to silence them. Worse yet, if you dare to so much as mention you are boycotting something and especially if you are so brazen to encourage others to do the same, you are bad and should be ashamed of yourself for inflicting the awful punishment of choosing not to purchase things from people who actively support causes you disagree with.
 
2013-07-09 08:13:03 PM

BojanglesPaladin: The My Little Pony Killer: OSC is free to say what he's going to say, he's free to believe what he's going to believe. The rest of us are under zero, ZERO obligation to turn around and fund him.

Yep. Completely agree.

 Oh wait. Did you think I suggested that anyone should give him a penny? You should review the discussion first. That should clear it up.


It is clear. You are suggesting that by announcing that I will not buy his books or see his movie, that I am somehow stifling his right to free speech. Nobody is preventing him from speaking or holding his own opinions. He does not have the right to force anybody to listen to him.
 
2013-07-09 08:16:25 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: BojanglesPaladin: The My Little Pony Killer: OSC is free to say what he's going to say, he's free to believe what he's going to believe. The rest of us are under zero, ZERO obligation to turn around and fund him.

Yep. Completely agree.

 Oh wait. Did you think I suggested that anyone should give him a penny? You should review the discussion first. That should clear it up.

It is clear. You are suggesting that by announcing that I will not buy his books or see his movie, that I am somehow stifling his right to free speech. Nobody is preventing him from speaking or holding his own opinions. He does not have the right to force anybody to listen to him.


When you use your views to petition governing bodies to punish a group of people for simply existing, the rest of the population should stand up and smack you down.
 
2013-07-09 08:47:46 PM

FuryOfFirestorm: xalres: Latinwolf: Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: bukijin: I loved the book when I was a kid. Didn't try and re-read it since then.

So I have to first politically vet every author, filmmaker, actor, artist and entertainer before I know if I can enjoy their art ??

Nah, but when you find out an artist is a mega-douchenozzle, you'll probably find that their art seems to lose its attraction.

More so when they are members of and / or supporting groups that try to take rights away from other people. Then it goes pass just having a personal opinion.

And this point is what certain people in this thread are...well I can only call it willfully ignoring because it's been stated and restated in big, bold letters over and over. Notice that none of them have addressed this point and instead have stuck to arguing with straw men that are dumping on OSC and whatever other people/businesses we're talking about because they have differing opinions.

There's so many strawmen being dumped in this thread, Christopher Lee and a bunch of druids are going to set it on fire to insure a good harvest.


Christopher Lee will let you know that he *knows* what it sounds like when a man gets stabbed in the back, so he doesn't need any help doing the scene when Wormtongue stabs Saruman.
 
2013-07-09 08:54:02 PM

BojanglesPaladin: But we should not be trying to punish them or silence them for thinking differently, or for advocating something we find morally repugnant.


Wait, why not? Why are economic boycotts morally wrong? Are you aware that the Montgomery bus boycott was exactly that? What do you think about that?
 
2013-07-09 09:10:13 PM

cameroncrazy1984: BojanglesPaladin: But we should not be trying to punish them or silence them for thinking differently, or for advocating something we find morally repugnant.

Wait, why not? Why are economic boycotts morally wrong? Are you aware that the Montgomery bus boycott was exactly that? What do you think about that?


Personally I don't think they are morally wrong in general, but when there are better options available it's just cheap populism. I don't think that boycotting Ender's game quite rises to the level of the civil rights movement -- it's more like boycotting the Dixie Chicks, or Denmark, or France.
 
2013-07-09 09:32:10 PM
I think through all of this has anyone ever wondered if a boycott would work? Apparently chick fil a business is booming. Just oes to show you any press is good press.
 
2013-07-09 09:33:41 PM

Girion47: Khellendros: bukijin: I loved the book when I was a kid. Didn't try and re-read it since then.

So I have to first politically vet every author, filmmaker, actor, artist and entertainer before I know if I can enjoy their art ??

Art is a reflection of its creator.  The art is informed and shaped by the views, opinions, and thoughts of the artist.  Yes, you should know something about an artist before patronizing their work.

complete and utter bullshiat.


So glad you could add something informative and intelligent to the discussion.  Care to add to that?  Maybe question my sexuality or imply you have had congress with a member of my family?

Separating art from the artist is insane on its face.  I don't care how great it looks, I'm not interested in Hitler's painting, or poetic writings of Charles Manson.  Ayn Rand can't be separated from her work.  Understanding an artist is key to understanding and appreciating their work - how they grew up, how they were educated, how they viewed the world, the time they lived in, etc.

And if you're PAYING to absorb or patronize an artist that is living and pocketing the money you spend, and they're politically/socially active and contributing money and time to causes, you're supporting it with your money.  If you give money to Card, you're giving to the orgs he supports.  That can't be separated from his work.
 
2013-07-09 09:51:48 PM

bdub77: This is mostly why I won't see Ender's Game and why I stopped reading his books after I found out what type of person he was. Even if he weren't a homophobe, Orson Scott Card is a raging asshole. That's not to say I haven't enjoyed plenty of books and movies written by raging assholes, but his books are also incredibly overrated. Meh.


Hell's bells, he must be ancient. I read his "novelizations" of the animated Star Trek in the '70s when I was knee-high to a tribble.

/tribble knees are best served live.
 
2013-07-09 10:20:52 PM

Marine1: Every artist has some views that you're not going to support. Their commitment to supporting these views will vary, but they will undoubtedly exist.

Right now, I'm wondering how many Farkers are in love with the Foo Fighters, even though they had a link to an AIDS denial website on their website for quite a while.


I accept that artists will have opinions that are different from mine, but if the person ACTIVELY campaigns against human rights?  They can feel free to munch on a tasty bowl of dicks.  I'm free to not give them my money.

Same for the Foo Fighters.  They ACTIVELY campaign to spread the idea of AIDS denialism.  That kind of BS gets people killed.  So they get none of my money or support.

-
And to the people whining that it's not the fault of everyone else who worked on the film?  Too bad.  If I don't support say, Donald Trump's assholery?  I'm not going to go out of my way to put money in his pocket because of the poor bastards who may be working for him.
 
2013-07-09 10:27:39 PM

Jean Genetic: This from the man who wrote "Songmaster"? That was a seriously creepy book. There's something off about a man who writes about the degradation of children so much. And don't get me started on "Lost Boys." Ugh, he's a repulsive human being who writes repulsive books. No thanks. I like "Ender's Game" but after the two aforementioned books, that was it. No more.


That was the singularly most farked-up book I ever read.

And no, I don't intend to see the film. I actually intend to actively encourage others not to see it. All it'll take is a hastily-crafted email forward sent to a few key mommybloggers containing a wink-wink, nudge-nudge, say-no-more rundown of Card's 'beliefs,' some handpicked quotes from his various works (especially 'Songmaster,') and enough parents will keep their kids from seeing it to sink the picture.

The best part? All Snopes can possibly do is give said email-forward a 'mixed veracity' tag with "yeah, that's really stuff Card said and wrote, no, that doesn't mean 'Ender's Game' is the most pedo-tastic thing since Sting in a codpiece," and that, alas, is usually more than enough to keep a derp-rage meme going well past the point of its' usefulness.

/Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it 35 minutes ago.
 
2013-07-09 10:50:39 PM
Soooo, some 500 posts in, and there's no mention of what they called the Enemy in the book?

/a little bird told me I'd leave satisfied
//birdie was wrong
 
2013-07-09 11:02:10 PM

INeedAName: vpb: Some Bass Playing Guy: I enjoyed Ender's Game.

But Card can EABOD.

He probably does on a regular basis.  Heterosexual men are not normally that obsessed with what gays do.

I'm very pro gay marriage. Wrote some letters, stood at a rally (I'm in DC so it's easy to get involved) but the whole 'if you don't like gay people you must secretly be gay' argument is ridiculous. Have their been cases of closeted homophobes, certainly. Are the majority of homophobes gay, not likely.

Move on with your argument to something more meaningful and relevant.


Yup. A Christian fundamentalist might claim that it doesn't agree with his concept marriage. That doesn't make him a closet gay.

However, those same fundamentalists ask to be left alone when doing their thing, so why can't they leave everyone else alone to do their thing?

/atheist with agnostic leanings.
// thinks gay people have the right to be as miserable as the rest of us.
 
2013-07-09 11:21:47 PM
Hey, Card, how about you stop obsessing over who other people love and are attracted to if they're of legal age and consenting? Hmm? Is that too difficult for you? Too bad. Gays marrying affects you, your god, and your life not in the slightest. Try enjoying your own life instead of wasting it raging about what other people do in their lives.

That goes for ALL dipshiat bigots and retards.
 
2013-07-09 11:31:16 PM

yukichigai: bdub77: This is mostly why I won't see Ender's Game and why I stopped reading his books after I found out what type of person he was. Even if he weren't a homophobe, Orson Scott Card is a raging asshole. That's not to say I haven't enjoyed plenty of books and movies written by raging assholes, but his books are also incredibly overrated. Meh.

The difference is, he doesn't inject his bigotry or his raving assholism into his books for the most part.  That's why I have no problem reading what he writes.

He may have distressing personal views, but at least he isn't trying to use his books as a medium to push those views.  Go look at someone like John Norman or L. Ron Hubbard.


He is now.   Empire is basically a book about how the political left and right can totally get along, as long as the left concedes that the right is better equipped for action, leadership, decision making, and the left does it's best to stay the hell out of the way.

Ender in Exile is even worse.  It features an entire section of the book that I understood to argue that in tough circumstances women shouldn't be allowed to make decisions about their own relationships (specifically, that their husbands have to be chosen for them) and that a enforced marriage of one man and one women is the only relationship that should exist.  Also, just to be clear about that, the women eventually agree that their arranged marriages are good for them and that they shouldn't act on their personal feelings.

I got Ender in Exile as an advance copy (I didn't have to pay for it) but it was the book that convinced me that I wouldn't be buying any more OSC books.  I wrote a weird review of it:   http://worldsandtime.blogspot.com/2008/10/refutation-of-ender-in-exil e -in-oscs.html.
 
2013-07-10 01:01:02 AM
What a bunch of crazy.

I will be happy to see a movie I wasn't going to see anyway, just to say fark you to the pro-censorship, fascist wannabe crowd.
 
2013-07-10 01:04:31 AM

murray208: cameroncrazy1984: BojanglesPaladin: But we should not be trying to punish them or silence them for thinking differently, or for advocating something we find morally repugnant.

Wait, why not? Why are economic boycotts morally wrong? Are you aware that the Montgomery bus boycott was exactly that? What do you think about that?

Personally I don't think they are morally wrong in general, but when there are better options available it's just cheap populism. I don't think that boycotting Ender's game quite rises to the level of the civil rights movement -- it's more like boycotting the Dixie Chicks, or Denmark, or France.


What the fark do you think this whole gay thing is about? Let me give you a huge hint: CIVIL RIGHTS!

Mind blown, huh?

Or do you think that the right to work, live, and marry as you please isn't really that important for gay people, because gay people can pretend to be gay, but black people can't pretend to be white? Is that the distinction?

Doesn't matter if you see a distinction at all, frankly, BECAUSE THERE IS NONE! Gay people, and the people who support them, are fighting to keep from remaining second class citizens, who pay taxes but are still discriminated against. It's EVERY BIT as much a civil rights fight as black people in the sixties and beyond.
 
2013-07-10 01:06:14 AM

murray208: cameroncrazy1984: BojanglesPaladin: But we should not be trying to punish them or silence them for thinking differently, or for advocating something we find morally repugnant.

Wait, why not? Why are economic boycotts morally wrong? Are you aware that the Montgomery bus boycott was exactly that? What do you think about that?

Personally I don't think they are morally wrong in general, but when there are better options available it's just cheap populism. I don't think that boycotting Ender's game quite rises to the level of the civil rights movement -- it's more like boycotting the Dixie Chicks, or Denmark, or France.


What the fark do you think this whole gay thing is about? Let me give you a huge hint: CIVIL RIGHTS!

Mind blown, huh?

Or do you think that the right to work, live, and marry as you please isn't really that important for gay people, because gay people can pretend to be straight, but black people can't pretend to be white? Is that the distinction?

Doesn't matter if you see a distinction at all, frankly, BECAUSE THERE IS NONE! Gay people, and the people who support them, are fighting to keep gays from remaining second class citizens who pay taxes but are still discriminated against. It's EVERY BIT as much a civil rights fight as the one conducted by black people (and their supporters) in the sixties and beyond.
 
2013-07-10 01:06:59 AM
weird, my Boobies posted while I thought I was previewing...?
 
2013-07-10 01:15:50 AM

soporific: RevRaven: Lutrasimilis: Where is the terror?

Because someone/some company can't pursue their interests for fear of being targeted for destruction by one of these groups. How is that not economic terrorism?


Are you arguing that the fallout of the Xbox One announcement was economic terrorism? Because a large group of very angry people did indeed threaten Microsoft and keep them from pursuing their interests of always on DRM.

No one is preventing OSC from writing what he wants. No one is preventing studios from making movies based on OSC's books. But we, the general public, have NO OBLIGATION to spend our money on those products. Just like we aren't obligated to buy a video game console we don't like, or buy music or attend concerts of singers we don't like. We are free to spend or not spend for whatever reason. Producers are not guaranteed customers.

After all, audiences are the ones who determine whether a movie gets a sequel. The Lone Ranger, for example, will probably not get a sequel because audiences decided not to see it. A lot of people actively hate the movie and Depp in particular. They are boycotting because they don't like him. (See also Michael Cera.) Is that terrorism? Or is it an audience deciding for some reason to spend their money elsewhere as it their right?

No one is preventing Johnny Depp from putting on a weird costume and prancing around like a maniac. (Just as no one is preventing Michael Cera from being Michael Cera, but to be fair he was awesome in 'This is the End.) But we are not obligated to pay for it and subsidize it with our attendance. We can choose not to go for whatever reason, such as being tired of the same old routine. No one is preventing Depp from being Depp, but a lot of people aren't going to pay for it. If that means he is forced to change the way he expresses himself in movies, that's up to him.

Whether you agree with the reason for not spending money does not make the actions of an audience rejecting a product terrori ...


ALL OF THIS!!! READ AND LEARN!
 
2013-07-10 05:23:53 AM

The My Little Pony Killer: BojanglesPaladin: The My Little Pony Killer: OSC is free to say what he's going to say, he's free to believe what he's going to believe. The rest of us are under zero, ZERO obligation to turn around and fund him.

Yep. Completely agree.

 Oh wait. Did you think I suggested that anyone should give him a penny? You should review the discussion first. That should clear it up.

It is clear. You are suggesting that by announcing that I will not buy his books or see his movie, that I am somehow stifling his right to free speech. Nobody is preventing him from speaking or holding his own opinions. He does not have the right to force anybody to listen to him.


BP is basically using Sarah Palin's logic when it comes to this stuff. Which is very funny considering how logical and a great debater he considers himself to be.
 
2013-07-10 07:14:38 AM

lysdexic: Soooo, some 500 posts in, and there's no mention of what they called the Enemy in the book?

/a little bird told me I'd leave satisfied
//birdie was wrong


Well, bugger that.
 
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