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(The Atlantic Wire)   Orson Scott Card adresses efforts to boycott "Ender's Game" because of the author's outspoken opposition to gay marriage. Short version: You godless heathens and filthy sodomites won, now stop oppressing me   (theatlanticwire.com) divider line 587
    More: Dumbass, boycotts, marriages  
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6740 clicks; posted to Geek » on 09 Jul 2013 at 10:23 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-09 02:13:00 PM

Super_pope: In one situation you're not spending money on a product created by someone who supports abusing people. In the other you're not spending money on a product because you want people to be abused.


Sigh. No need to be abusive. Try to follow me here: That is how YOU see it. And that is a valid and legitimate viewpoint.

Not everyone sees opposition to homosexuality as "abusing people", and they have a valid and legitimate viewpoint as well. You and I may not agree, but this does not mean they are evil bigots. Obviously, some may be, but as Americans, we must acknowledge that they are entitled to their viewpoint as well, no matter how strongly we disagree. They have a valid and legitimate right to advocate legally for their position as we have a right to oppose and advocate for ours. Welcome to America. Stop calling for fatwah.
 
2013-07-09 02:13:19 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: ThrobblefootSpectre: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: ThrobblefootSpectre: bukijin: I loved the book when I was a kid. Didn't try and re-read it since then.

So I have to first politically vet every author, filmmaker, actor, artist and entertainer before I know if I can enjoy their art ??

Nah. I still watch Sean Penn movies even though he is a socialist fascist nutjob who would gladly sell your constitutional rights for a photo op.

If you boycott every good or service that somewhere along the line involved one person with whom you have an
ideological disagreement, you would probably be a hermit in a mud hut somewhere foraging for tubers.

Card is "one person" who happened to be a part of Ender's Game?

One part of the movie, yes. Hint: he didn't actually make the movie.

Ok, feel free to be guilted into a movie you don't want to see from a property created by a bigot because the best boy already got paid for his work he already did. Congratulations?


Sigh. I'll watch the movie or not based on whether I want to see the movie, but not based on a bitter political agenda. That's just me. See my example above about Sean Penn.

I read the books and enjoyed them, so i will probably watch the movie by the time it is in a redbox. I expect to be very disappointed in the movie. Using, for example, the utterly horrible Dune screen interpretation to set my expectations.
 
2013-07-09 02:14:13 PM

NeverDrunk23: hinten: "Now it will be interesting to see whether the victorious proponents of gay marriage will show tolerance toward those who disagreed with them when the issue was still in dispute."

What exactly kind of a tolerance is he looking for here? That statement/threat doesn't even make any sense.

'I can be a hateful asshole all I want, but I DEMAND you take the high road.'


Conservative thinking at it's finest, holding other people to a moral standard that they, the Conservatives don't hold themselves to.
 
2013-07-09 02:14:29 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: I'm going to personally boycott your posts starting now.


Understood :)

/While I actually encourage people who feel inclined to use the ignore function at will, I actually find many of your posts entertaining (in a good way)
 
2013-07-09 02:17:19 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: You're so purposefully obtuse that it's laughable. Would you shop at a store owned by a guy, who in his off time, spent it marching up and down the street calling for the deaths of all Jews?

Nope. Unless they were REALLY, REALLY good scones.

No seriously, for about 20 years I have refused to fill up at a Shell Station because I have issues with their policy in Africa. I don't shop at Wal-Mart. I'm all about not giving my money to people I do not approve of.

That is a different animal than all this calling for a fatwah boycott against political opponents. It is a subtle distinction perhaps, but a distinction with a difference.

I am not saying that OSC has not earned the ire directed at him, or that everyone is not perfectly entitled to give or not give money to the film or his books based on your individual conscience.

I am saying "Can we stop with the call for a boycott of anyone we disagree with politically? Everyone? Moratorium on punitive boycotts for dissenting political views please"?

That's it.


1.) Not buying things because they support something you find amoral: Good
2.) Telling other people who you believe will sympathize with your stance but may not be aware of the situation so that they too will consider joining you and possibly enact change: Bad

Your position is that we should be willful but ultimately impotent because mobilizing more than just yourself makes you a jerk and pollutes our societal discourse?
 
2013-07-09 02:18:24 PM

robohobo: Serious Black: Gunny Highway: caddisfly: Diogenes: kronicfeld: "We disagreed" is an utterly disingenuous characterization of the "debate."

That's like saying there was no racism during the slavery era.

If anything I get an icky feeling with his obsession over militarized little boys.

So much this.  The amazing irony of the OSC saga is that Ender's Game is totally homoerotic.  Ender expresses deep love for his fellow boys, but the young girls are almost uniformly antagonists.  SPOILER: one of the pivotal events of the book is a naked wrestling match.

I fear OSC's internet cache is smoother than a baby dolphin.

Petra was one of Ender's first allies at battle school.  She remained a friend throughout (if I remember correctly).

Yeah, she was one of the most trusted members of his jeesh until she burned out and fell asleep during a battle.

Bonzo attacked Ender in the shower because that was a time when he was vulnerable.  I never saw it as being homoerotic.  It was a time when a group could isolate Ender and beat the shiat out of him.  He was naked because he was in the shower.

Same here.

It's the 'no, you are!' mentality that makes people see it. OF COURSE someone must be the thing they dislike or make fun of, etc.


It certainly can and does happen. Witness any of the many Republicans who have voted for legislation stripping gay people of their rights and then subsequently have been caught in a "wide stance." But sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
 
2013-07-09 02:20:29 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: You're so purposefully obtuse that it's laughable. Would you shop at a store owned by a guy, who in his off time, spent it marching up and down the street calling for the deaths of all Jews?

Nope. Unless they were REALLY, REALLY good scones.

No seriously, for about 20 years I have refused to fill up at a Shell Station because I have issues with their policy in Africa. I don't shop at Wal-Mart. I'm all about not giving my money to people I do not approve of.

That is a different animal than all this calling for a fatwah boycott against political opponents. It is a subtle distinction perhaps, but a distinction with a difference.

I am not saying that OSC has not earned the ire directed at him, or that everyone is not perfectly entitled to give or not give money to the film or his books based on your individual conscience.

I am saying "Can we stop with the call for a boycott of anyone we disagree with politically? Everyone? Moratorium on punitive boycotts for dissenting political views please"?

That's it.


No. Because people like OSC are actively oppressing other Americans. They need to know that's not acceptable. They need to know their behavior is wrong. Yes, he should be punished, not for being a bigot, but for actively working to oppress people.
 
2013-07-09 02:22:02 PM

Serious Black: robohobo: Serious Black: Gunny Highway: caddisfly: Diogenes: kronicfeld: "We disagreed" is an utterly disingenuous characterization of the "debate."

That's like saying there was no racism during the slavery era.

If anything I get an icky feeling with his obsession over militarized little boys.

So much this.  The amazing irony of the OSC saga is that Ender's Game is totally homoerotic.  Ender expresses deep love for his fellow boys, but the young girls are almost uniformly antagonists.  SPOILER: one of the pivotal events of the book is a naked wrestling match.

I fear OSC's internet cache is smoother than a baby dolphin.

Petra was one of Ender's first allies at battle school.  She remained a friend throughout (if I remember correctly).

Yeah, she was one of the most trusted members of his jeesh until she burned out and fell asleep during a battle.

Bonzo attacked Ender in the shower because that was a time when he was vulnerable.  I never saw it as being homoerotic.  It was a time when a group could isolate Ender and beat the shiat out of him.  He was naked because he was in the shower.

Same here.

It's the 'no, you are!' mentality that makes people see it. OF COURSE someone must be the thing they dislike or make fun of, etc.

It certainly can and does happen. Witness any of the many Republicans who have voted for legislation stripping gay people of their rights and then subsequently have been caught in a "wide stance." But sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.


That's all I'm saying. But all too often the argument seems to be the former, and just because. It's schoolyard.
 
2013-07-09 02:22:44 PM

Khellendros: bukijin: I loved the book when I was a kid. Didn't try and re-read it since then.

So I have to first politically vet every author, filmmaker, actor, artist and entertainer before I know if I can enjoy their art ??

Art is a reflection of its creator.  The art is informed and shaped by the views, opinions, and thoughts of the artist.  Yes, you should know something about an artist before patronizing their work.


complete and utter bullshiat.
 
2013-07-09 02:23:11 PM
OSC piece of crap who sued to write good books that he has already gotten rich off of.  Better to boycott his recent efforts because they are awful.
 
2013-07-09 02:26:31 PM

zomega: The My Little Pony Killer: PizzaJedi81: meat0918: At least C.S. Lewis is readable and enjoyable.

Well...before The Last Battle, anyway.

That one was worth it though, because C.S. Lewis is still the only author I know of who would end his series by killing off all of his main characters at once.

Susan's not dead. She's still alive as of book's end.


Right.

Susan is separated from all her family for all eternity because she stopped believing.

Nice ending.
 
2013-07-09 02:29:53 PM

Super_pope: 1.) Not buying things because they support something you find amoral: Good


read my posts.
"for about 20 years I have refused to fill up at a Shell Station because I have issues with their policy in Africa. I don't shop at Wal-Mart. I'm all about not giving my money to people I do not approve of."
"You are free to keep your money in your pocket."
"Which is perfectly fine... Give your trade to whomever you choose."
"Nah. If it's a good movie, see it. If it sucks, don't."


So no. You got point 1 wrong.

Super_pope: 2.) Telling other people who you believe will sympathize with your stance but may not be aware of the situation so that they too will consider joining you and possibly enact change: Bad


Insomuch as doing so is intended to punish people who think the "wrong" way, yes.

Super_pope: Your position is that we should be willful but ultimately impotent because mobilizing more than just yourself makes you a jerk and pollutes our societal discourse?


I am saying that we should stop calling for financial fatwah. I am saying "Can we stop with the call for a boycott of anyone we disagree with politically? Everyone? Moratorium on punitive boycotts for dissenting political views please"? I am saying that It's the increasingly reflexive use of the boycott as a punishment for people with whom we politically disagree that is the problem.

And I am saying that this is not exclusive to either side. As I pointed out above it was equally dumb and wrong for Evangelicals to boycott Disney for giving same sex benefits as it was for Pro-Gay people to boycott Chik-Fil-A for being anti-gay or whatever.
 
2013-07-09 02:30:33 PM

BojanglesPaladin: As I pointed out above it was equally dumb and wrong for Evangelicals to boycott Disney for giving same sex benefits as it was for Pro-Gay people to boycott Chik-Fil-A for being anti-gay or whatever.


How is boycotting "wrong"? If Evangelicals wanted to boycott Disney for giving same-sex benefits, that's their right to do so.

When people boycotted CFA, it wasn't because CEO Dan Cathy doesn't agree with gay marriage - it was because part of their money went to causes that funded the slaughter of homosexuals in Uganda.

Damn, this thread really brought out a lot of purposely obtuse trolls.
 
2013-07-09 02:30:58 PM

Mike Chewbacca: No. Because people like OSC are actively oppressing other Americans. They need to know that's not acceptable. They need to know their behavior is wrong. Yes, he should be punished, not for being a bigot, but for actively working to oppress people.


Try to follow me here: That is how YOU see it. And that is a valid and legitimate viewpoint.

Not everyone sees opposition to homosexuality as "oppressing people", and they have a valid and legitimate viewpoint as well. You and I may not agree, but this does not mean they are evil bigots. Obviously, some may be, but as Americans, we must acknowledge that they are entitled to their viewpoint as well, no matter how strongly we disagree. They have a valid and legitimate right to advocate legally for their position as we have a right to oppose and advocate for ours. Welcome to America. Stop calling for financial fatwah.
 
2013-07-09 02:31:49 PM

BojanglesPaladin: read my posts.
"for about 20 years I have refused to fill up at a Shell Station because I have issues with their policy in Africa. I don't shop at Wal-Mart. I'm all about not giving my money to people I do not approve of."
"You are free to keep your money in your pocket."
"Which is perfectly fine... Give your trade to whomever you choose."
"Nah. If it's a good movie, see it. If it sucks, don't."

So no. You got point 1 wrong.


No he didn't.  His post is right there, you even quoted the right part.
 
2013-07-09 02:34:48 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Mike Chewbacca: No. Because people like OSC are actively oppressing other Americans. They need to know that's not acceptable. They need to know their behavior is wrong. Yes, he should be punished, not for being a bigot, but for actively working to oppress people.

Try to follow me here: That is how YOU see it. And that is a valid and legitimate viewpoint.

Not everyone sees opposition to homosexuality as "oppressing people", and they have a valid and legitimate viewpoint as well. You and I may not agree, but this does not mean they are evil bigots. Obviously, some may be, but as Americans, we must acknowledge that they are entitled to their viewpoint as well, no matter how strongly we disagree. They have a valid and legitimate right to advocate legally for their position as we have a right to oppose and advocate for ours. Welcome to America. Stop calling for financial fatwah.


He can call for financial fatwah that is a valid and legitimate point. You can also get a life and ignore what he chooses to do with his time.

Just like Orson Scott Card needs to regarding homosexuals.
 
2013-07-09 02:36:37 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Mike Chewbacca: No. Because people like OSC are actively oppressing other Americans. They need to know that's not acceptable. They need to know their behavior is wrong. Yes, he should be punished, not for being a bigot, but for actively working to oppress people.

Try to follow me here: That is how YOU see it. And that is a valid and legitimate viewpoint.

Not everyone sees opposition to homosexuality as "oppressing people", and they have a valid and legitimate viewpoint as well. You and I may not agree, but this does not mean they are evil bigots. Obviously, some may be, but as Americans, we must acknowledge that they are entitled to their viewpoint as well, no matter how strongly we disagree. They have a valid and legitimate right to advocate legally for their position as we have a right to oppose and advocate for ours. Welcome to America. Stop calling for financial fatwah.


He thinks gay sex should be illegal, and that if the government "redefines" marriage then our government is the enemy of the people and must be overthrown at all cost. He said HE would act to bring down that government. That's a little different than just thinking gays are gross. That's a little different than having a difference of opinion. He can hate gays all he wants, but the second he works to keep them unequal citizens, he loses the right for me to just turn a blind eye to his bigotry.
 
2013-07-09 02:37:46 PM
kronicfeld:

"We disagreed" is an utterly disingenuous characterization of the "debate." He actively worked for decades to demonize homosexuals through his proselytizing and his National Organization for Marriage fought tirelessly to deny them equal rights. So, no, this isn't a situation where you "agree to disagree" and shake your opposition's hand after a good-faith debate. He wants to "move on" because paying any attention to his past now is going to reveal him to a much broader audience as a hateful bigot.

Needs to be re-posted since there are still people in this thread attempting the "you're boycotting him for expressing his personal opinion" excuse.  A couple of hundred posts after this and people are still attempting it.
 
2013-07-09 02:39:07 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Mike Chewbacca: No. Because people like OSC are actively oppressing other Americans. They need to know that's not acceptable. They need to know their behavior is wrong. Yes, he should be punished, not for being a bigot, but for actively working to oppress people.

Try to follow me here: That is how YOU see it. And that is a valid and legitimate viewpoint.

Not everyone sees opposition to homosexuality as "oppressing people", and they have a valid and legitimate viewpoint as well. You and I may not agree, but this does not mean they are evil bigots. Obviously, some may be, but as Americans, we must acknowledge that they are entitled to their viewpoint as well, no matter how strongly we disagree. They have a valid and legitimate right to advocate legally for their position as we have a right to oppose and advocate for ours. Welcome to America. Stop calling for financial fatwah.


And frankly, if he was lobbying to disenfranchise blacks, or oultaw marriage between Christians and non-Christians or blacks and whites or Asians and blacks, you wouldn't be making this argument. You'd be just as outraged as the rest of us. So the fact that you are arguing in favor of OSC says something about you.
 
2013-07-09 02:39:08 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Not everyone sees opposition to homosexuality as "oppressing people", and they have a valid and legitimate viewpoint as well. You and I may not agree, but this does not mean they are evil bigots. Obviously, some may be, but as Americans, we must acknowledge that they are entitled to their viewpoint as well, no matter how strongly we disagree. They have a valid and legitimate right to advocate legally for their position as we have a right to oppose and advocate for ours. Welcome to America. Stop calling for financial fatwah


OSC is a member of of the board of directors of NOM. He actively gives his time and money to a cause that prevents other people from having equal rights. He has advocated imprisoning gay people for "committing sodomy" (because straight people NEVER do it in the butt!), and even wrote that if gay marriage becomes legal, the government should be overthrown.

That pretty much defines Card as "an evil bigot".

Refusing to understand this defines you as "a stupid idiot".
 
kab
2013-07-09 02:39:25 PM

Znuh: Saying you can appreciate the work and can somehow separate the art from the creator is akin to appreciating a lamp made out of human skin.

"It's a nice lamp, very uh, radiant..uh...oh god."

You can't. Art is reflective of the individual, the two are forever emotionally linked. Hitler's paintings take on extra meaning when you learn about his other activities.

So, no. I feel like I've bitten into a chocolate that had the illusion of awesome, and was filled with pus.


Well no, because I can plainly see what the lampshade is made of.

Lots of folks judge art on its own merit, and willingly (or otherwise) either don't know, or don't care about the personality of the person that created it.

I'm 100% sure that some of my favorite musicians are raging assholes of the highest order as individuals.   That doesn't impact my appreciation of what they do in the slightest.... it just makes me uninterested in having them over for a beer.

If we're aspiring to do background checks on our entertainment prior to consuming it, you're going to be spending a lot of time playing checkers, or twiddling your thumbs.

/read Enders Game
//thought it was decent, but not amazing, and certainly not worthy of the accolades it's received.
///learning of the author's stance doesn't change my opinion.
 
2013-07-09 02:39:48 PM

FuryOfFirestorm: BojanglesPaladin: Not everyone sees opposition to homosexuality as "oppressing people", and they have a valid and legitimate viewpoint as well. You and I may not agree, but this does not mean they are evil bigots. Obviously, some may be, but as Americans, we must acknowledge that they are entitled to their viewpoint as well, no matter how strongly we disagree. They have a valid and legitimate right to advocate legally for their position as we have a right to oppose and advocate for ours. Welcome to America. Stop calling for financial fatwah

OSC is a member of of the board of directors of NOM. He actively gives his time and money to a cause that prevents other people from having equal rights. He has advocated imprisoning gay people for "committing sodomy" (because straight people NEVER do it in the butt!), and even wrote that if gay marriage becomes legal, the government should be overthrown.

That pretty much defines Card as "an evil bigot".

Refusing to understand this defines you as "a stupid idiot".


Democracy?
 
2013-07-09 02:41:41 PM

Mike Chewbacca: He thinks gay sex should be illegal, and that if the government "redefines" marriage then our government is the enemy of the people and must be overthrown at all cost. He said HE would act to bring down that government. That's a little different than just thinking gays are gross. That's a little different than having a difference of opinion. He can hate gays all he wants, but the second he works to keep them unequal citizens, he loses the right for me to just turn a blind eye to his bigotry.


Is OSC the infamous White Horse of Mormon legend and myth?
 
2013-07-09 02:41:49 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Sigh. No need to be abusive. Try to follow me here: That is how YOU see it. And that is a valid and legitimate viewpoint.

Not everyone sees opposition to homosexuality as "abusing people", and they have a valid and legitimate viewpoint as well. You and I may not agree, but this does not mean they are evil bigots. Obviously, some may be, but as Americans, we must acknowledge that they are entitled to their viewpoint as well, no matter how strongly we disagree. They have a valid and legitimate right to advocate legally for their position as we have a right to oppose and advocate for ours. Welcome to America. Stop calling for fatwah.


Not everyone sees opposition to homosexuality as "abusing people" -

Yes.  That's a true statement

and they have a valid and legitimate viewpoint as well. - No.  What they are opposing is people (who they are not claiming are insane or unfit to sign other legal documents) being treated equally in what is essentially a property contract between two parties.  They are opposed to this because the parties involved are unholy in their eyes.  In a society governed by reason, this viewpoint is NOT valid and legitimate.  It might be in a theocracy, but that is not what we are, and there is no legally acceptable framework to make us one no matter how fervent belief is.  These things fly in some areas because religious beliefs are entrenched, but that does not change the fact that they have no place in our codified legal framework and laws like DOMA only exist because it was popular with very vocal/very terrible people.

You and I may not agree, but this does not mean they are evil bigots - No.  See above.
Obviously, some may be - Yes

but as Americans, we must acknowledge that they are entitled to their viewpoint as well, no matter how strongly we disagree - No.  These people advocate theocratic control of my society.  They are entitled to believe what they want, but they are not entitled to pursue a legislative agenda without opposition.

They have a valid and legitimate right to advocate legally for their position as we have a right to oppose and advocate for ours. Welcome to America. Stop calling for fatwah. - Two decades ago they were using financial weapons in an organized way against Disney.  Why wouldn't I do the same to keep them from forcing my friends and neighbors to live like they're impaired?  You're a shiatty American, and really self congratulatory about how above the fray your ass is.
 
2013-07-09 02:41:55 PM
Isn't a boycott of this guys books as bad as someone who boycotts a business because the proprietor is gay?  I never understood this mentality, so his an opinion that is stupid if you like his books read them. I read some where that Picasso was an ass hat of a person but that doesn't mean he was not a great artist.
 
2013-07-09 02:43:43 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Not everyone sees opposition to homosexuality as "oppressing people",


Of course the people who want to prevent gays from marrying don't see themselves as oppressing people. Of course the people who wanted homosexuality to remain illegal don't see themselves as oppressing people.

But that's exactly what they are doing. The actions of those who "oppose homosexuality" are to pass laws that relegate gays to the status of second-class citizen. Those who "oppose homosexuality" want to enact laws that hurt gays. Those who "oppose homosexuality" want to pass laws for the sole purpose of making the lives of gays harder.

Furthermore, those who "oppose homosexuality" will lose exactly nothing if gays get equality. They will not lose any rights, any privileges, anything at all if gays get treated equally before the law.

It's one thing to hold an opinion. I respect opinions and your right to express them, even if we disagree. However, when you try to enact your opinion, to force other people to live according to YOUR rules, then we have a problem. Your right to believe ends where someone else's life begins.
 
2013-07-09 02:45:02 PM

FuryOfFirestorm: When people boycotted CFA, it wasn't because CEO Dan Cathy doesn't agree with gay marriage - it was because part of their money went to causes that funded the slaughter of homosexuals in Uganda.


I can honestly say that of all the people I know (many dozens personally) who participated in the Chik-Fil-A protests and boycotts and flooded Facebook and e-mails with calls to action, not once did anyone bring up the slaughter of homosexuals in Uganda.

So I just looked it up. What you mean to say is that Chik-Fil-A once gave $25K to a different group who may have spent some of that money lobbying the US Congress to change the specific wording of a bill that would have issued a non-binding condemnation of Uganda's anti-homosexuality bill, which called for a death penalty. At least according to Snopes and HuffPo. So Chik-Fil-A to FRC to Lobbying congress to Uganda's already existing law, which congress' bill would not have changed anyway.

That is so far away from "funding the slaughter of homosexuals in Uganda", it makes me sad that you would post that. Now if I missed something, or you are referring to something else, please feel free to correct me, but as it stands, you look like you intentionally or blindly regurgitated propaganda. And if so, you should be more careful and maybe a little ashamed.

And you didn't answer my other question :)
 
2013-07-09 02:45:11 PM

praymantis: Isn't a boycott of this guys books as bad as someone who boycotts a business because the proprietor is gay?


No. If you can't see the difference between bigotry and not tolerating bigots, well, you need your head checked.
 
2013-07-09 02:46:11 PM

soporific: . However, when you try to enact your opinion, to force other people to live according to YOUR rules, then we have a problem.


Isn't that politics in nutshell? Exactly that? Trying to enforce one's views on the masses?
 
2013-07-09 02:46:25 PM

Super_pope: the fray your find it edifying to pretend your ass is


ftfm
 
2013-07-09 02:48:24 PM

BojanglesPaladin: I can honestly say that of all the people I know (many dozens personally) who participated in the Chik-Fil-A protests and boycotts and flooded Facebook and e-mails with calls to action, not once did anyone bring up the slaughter of homosexuals in Uganda.


Well then clearly no one anywhere boycotted CFA because of that!
 
2013-07-09 02:51:42 PM

BojanglesPaladin: I can honestly say that of all the people I know (many dozens personally) who participated in the Chik-Fil-A protests and boycotts and flooded Facebook and e-mails with calls to action, not once did anyone bring up the slaughter of homosexuals in Uganda.


I know of no one who has personally seen a duck engage in an act of homosexual necrophilia, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
 
2013-07-09 02:53:35 PM

FuryOfFirestorm: OSC is on the board of directors for NOM.


And your point here is what, exactly? The man is entitled to his beliefs, and yes, even his political affiliations. No matter how repulsive they are. Judge the work on its own merits, not any given political belief of the author, especially when that belief has little if anything to do with the subject material. This wrongful idea that a work can have no merit if its creator hasn't amendable political and religious beliefs is anti-pluralist and has to go.
 
2013-07-09 02:58:33 PM

Mike Chewbacca: And frankly, if he was lobbying to disenfranchise blacks, or oultaw marriage between Christians and non-Christians or blacks and whites or Asians and blacks, you wouldn't be making this argument. You'd be just as outraged as the rest of us.


I am outraged by his bigotry. I liked both the Ender Series and Alvin Maker and a few others, but I don't buy his stuff anymore. For much the same reason I don't financially support Woody Allen, Roman Polanski or Michael Jackson.

You are missing the point. Here's a clue: I agree with the ACLU when they defend the Klan's right to march, though I wouldn't piss on a Kluxxer if he was on fire, and I think they should all DIAF.

Super_pope: They are entitled to believe what they want, but they are not entitled to pursue a legislative agenda without opposition.


Of course not. Are you even reading my posts before responding? I've already addressed this exact point to you directly:

BojanglesPaladin: They have a valid and legitimate right to advocate legally for their position as we have a right to oppose and advocate for ours. Welcome to America. Stop calling for fatwah.



Super_pope: Two decades ago they were using financial weapons in an organized way against Disney. Why wouldn't I do the same to keep them from forcing my friends and neighbors to live like they're impaired?


You seem to have missed the numerous times I have pointed out that I thought it was wrong when the evangelicals did that. Just scroll up and read more slowly and I think we can save some time.
 
2013-07-09 02:59:18 PM

Mike Chewbacca: BojanglesPaladin: I can honestly say that of all the people I know (many dozens personally) who participated in the Chik-Fil-A protests and boycotts and flooded Facebook and e-mails with calls to action, not once did anyone bring up the slaughter of homosexuals in Uganda.

Well then clearly no one anywhere boycotted CFA because of that!


I believe he was asking for people to be tolerant of one another. just because he does not believe in gay marriage he is a bigot? So what about people who believe in marrying many people? Are we all bigots now because we don't agree with that?
 
2013-07-09 02:59:31 PM
So, serious question here: you think Card gets a cut of the boxoffice or do you think he's already been paid in full for the rights? Will boycotting Ender's Game actually hurt him? Will it hurt the hundreds of other people involved in production? Or will it just be dip in some executive producer's studio's wallet where they go, "oh, I guess people didn't like the movie."

What do you figure the actual breakdown is of a film boycott? Would you feel sort of shiatty if the outcome was say: him walking away with the same size check and some random firm going under?

/Not that DD should have traded margin
//for back-end in the first place, mind you
 
2013-07-09 03:01:30 PM

robohobo: soporific: . However, when you try to enact your opinion, to force other people to live according to YOUR rules, then we have a problem.

Isn't that politics in nutshell? Exactly that? Trying to enforce one's views on the masses?


There's usually a demonstrable benefit to society or a reason behind most laws. The crop of anti-gay laws we've seen lately simply boil down to "Traditional marriage will be damaged but we can't prove it or tell you exactly how" and "Gays shouldn't be treated the same because Jesus says they're icky.". Sorry, that's not anywhere even close to a legitimate reason to treat people unequally.
 
2013-07-09 03:01:36 PM

that bosnian sniper: FuryOfFirestorm: OSC is on the board of directors for NOM.

And your point here is what, exactly? The man is entitled to his beliefs, and yes, even his political affiliations. No matter how repulsive they are. Judge the work on its own merits, not any given political belief of the author, especially when that belief has little if anything to do with the subject material. This wrongful idea that a work can have no merit if its creator hasn't amendable political and religious beliefs is anti-pluralist and has to go.


I'm still getting a handle on the discussion, but something that may help would be to distinguish between whether a work has merit and whether one wishes to directly or indirectly support the guy financially or symbolically by paying for the work.
 
2013-07-09 03:02:21 PM

Some Bass Playing Guy: I enjoyed Ender's Game.

But Card can EABOD.


That's pretty much where I am on this. Still haven't decided if I'm gonna go see Ender's Game when it comes out or not.
 
2013-07-09 03:02:57 PM

Mike Chewbacca: Well then clearly no one anywhere boycotted CFA because of that!

Serious Black: I know of no one who has personally seen a duck engage in an act of homosexual necrophilia, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.


Skipped the rest of that post without reading didncha? Because if they DID, then they were propaganda swallowing morons, since that didn't actually happen.

I was saying I had not heard that particular criticism before. Then I researched it. And it's bunk, which is probably why none of my intelligent, activist friends used it as a reason. Besides, they had plenty of others.

Next time, maybe read first and post less reflexively? Not every single thing has to be a slap fight.
 
2013-07-09 03:04:27 PM
Ender's Game was a great book.

Those pushing the Gay agenda on the public are as annoying as the sight of two men making out.

Card +1
Corn holing  0
 
2013-07-09 03:07:31 PM
All of this is reverse engineered marketing to get the Christians out to go see this movie.
 
2013-07-09 03:10:41 PM
I know it's not a popular opinion but I really find the whole 'gay marriage' thing to be incredibly hypocritical.

Arguments about mental health, survival of the species, what occurs in nature, what is 'icky' - all have no business in our laws pertaining to sex and marriage.  Consenting adults should be free to marry/hook up/sleep with *whomever* they want.

Virtually every single proponent of gay marriage that I personally know - is still completely cool with the exact same style laws that made it illegal for gays to have sex and still stop many of them from getting married; so long as it is against other types of adults.  These are the same types of laws that once made it illegal for blacks and whites to marry.  Either they are all wrong, or they aren't.

I'm 100% pro-gay marriage.
I'm also 100% pro-incestuous marriage.
I'm also 100% pro-polygamy marriage.
I'm also 100% pro-interracial marriage.

Virtually every single argument made against any one of those applies to the rest.  The government has no business telling consenting adults who they can/can't sleep with marry.
 
2013-07-09 03:11:00 PM
Personally I'm considering boycotting the Ender's Game movie because I believe, like many other books I've loved, the movie is going to fark up just about everything the book was about. The trailers have pretty clearly pointed it out.

The only reason I will give it a shot is there are plenty of these films that I've come to love as similar stories separate from the original book. 2 examples I can think of off the top of my head are Starship Troopers and the Crow.
 
2013-07-09 03:11:41 PM

BojanglesPaladin: I am outraged by his bigotry. I liked both the Ender Series and Alvin Maker and a few others, but I don't buy his stuff anymore. For much the same reason I don't financially support Woody Allen, Roman Polanski or Michael Jackson.



BojanglesPaladin: I am saying "Can we stop with the call for a boycott of anyone we disagree with politically? Everyone? Moratorium on punitive boycotts for dissenting political views please"?


WTF? You're not even doing what you're asking us to do. There's a word for that... I think it starts with an H and ends with "ypocrisy."
 
2013-07-09 03:13:46 PM
Now it will be interesting to see whether the victorious proponents of gay marriage will show tolerance toward those who disagreed with them when the issue was still in dispute.

Congratulations, you've confirmed to everyone you're an asshole.
 
2013-07-09 03:14:04 PM

that bosnian sniper: Judge the work on its own merits, not any given political belief of the author, especially when that belief has little if anything to do with the subject material.


Roman Polanski fled the country after drugging a 13 year old girl to assrape her.  I don't patronize his movies either, regardless of whether or not they're good.  I don't want to contribute to the success of a good film that will, by its success provide future funds that support the posh lifestyle of a guy who farks drugged children.  If someone suggests we see or rent a movie like that I make it known.  Do you feel like that is a bad idea?  Ought I go out and try to enjoy his films because none of them are about him and how much he likes to rape near unconscious tween girls?

Some people are scum, regardless of whether or not they believe they're actually right, awesome, and totally doing the right thing.  I haven't seen any Polanski films but people tell me they're good.  I don't judge they're quality because I haven't seen them, but I have determined that they are not for me nonetheless.
 
2013-07-09 03:15:46 PM

praymantis: just because he does not believe in gay marriage he is a bigot?


Yep. Because there's no good reason gay folks should be banned from marrying their love ones.

praymantis: So what about people who believe in marrying many people?


It depends on why. Because it's icky and I just don't think it's right isn't a valid reason. Because it opens a massive can of worms regarding marital rights, property rights, and inheritance rights, spousal rights, and child support? Well, that's a bit different. Because so often the women involved in it are brainwashed and taken advantage of by the men in their circles/families? That's different.
 
2013-07-09 03:16:04 PM
Fark_Guy_Rob:

I'm 100% pro-gay marriage.
I'm also 100% pro-incestuous marriage.
I'm also 100% pro-polygamy marriage.
I'm also 100% pro-interracial marriage.

Virtually every single argument made against any one of those applies to the rest.  The government has no business telling consenting adults who they can/can't sleep with marry.


I'm against all legal definition of marriage.
Marriage is a religious thing and an imaginary societal construct.
I have problems with incest but that has nothing to do with marriage.
I can already live with and have sex with any consenting adult(s) that I want to.
There is nothing logical about getting a tax deduction because of it.
 
2013-07-09 03:16:07 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Mike Chewbacca: And frankly, if he was lobbying to disenfranchise blacks, or oultaw marriage between Christians and non-Christians or blacks and whites or Asians and blacks, you wouldn't be making this argument. You'd be just as outraged as the rest of us.

I am outraged by his bigotry. I liked both the Ender Series and Alvin Maker and a few others, but I don't buy his stuff anymore. For much the same reason I don't financially support Woody Allen, Roman Polanski or Michael Jackson.

You are missing the point. Here's a clue: I agree with the ACLU when they defend the Klan's right to march, though I wouldn't piss on a Kluxxer if he was on fire, and I think they should all DIAF.



I think people were thrown off by this previous bit of yours:

BojanglesPaladin: Not everyone sees opposition to homosexuality as "abusing people", and they have a valid and legitimate viewpoint as well. You and I may not agree, but this does not mean they are evil bigots.


This could be interpreted as you giving approval to such views as you characterize them as 'valid', and in addition could be characterized as not being bigotry. Taking special care to use unambiguous language is worth the effort in these charged kinds of discussions, IMHO.
 
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