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(The Atlantic Wire)   Orson Scott Card adresses efforts to boycott "Ender's Game" because of the author's outspoken opposition to gay marriage. Short version: You godless heathens and filthy sodomites won, now stop oppressing me   (theatlanticwire.com) divider line 587
    More: Dumbass, boycotts, marriages  
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6738 clicks; posted to Geek » on 09 Jul 2013 at 10:23 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-09 01:17:21 PM

Serious Black: This is Alan Turing. He is widely known as one of the fathers of the reprogrammable computer. He broke the Enigma cipher that allowed the Allies to hack into the Nazis' communcations and helped win World War II. He was chemically castrated because he was gay, and he later committed suicide, likely because of extreme intimidation. If you want to boycott anything even remotely pro-gay, you must sever yourself from modern society and join a neo-Nazi group. Period.


encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com
 
2013-07-09 01:20:01 PM

Magorn: off certain characters,


Considering who he's already killed, I can't think of who you could actually mean.
 
2013-07-09 01:22:40 PM

CheetahOlivetti: I'm partial to orange as long as it doesn't flag me as a nutter.


Oh, you absolutely are. But let me let you in on a secret. The best people are.
 
2013-07-09 01:25:14 PM
Pretty sure he's already gotten paid for the Ender movie, so I don't much think he cares. At best, you'll prevent him from being paid for the rights to another one.

/assuming he hasn't already sold those, too
 
2013-07-09 01:28:21 PM

BojanglesPaladin: It's a free country. You aren't required to "think the right way" about anything, much less homosexuality. We may not agree, but our fellow Americans are perfectly entitled to disapprove of homosexuality. It's a valid position, whether we agree or not, and it doesn't automatically mean that they are hate-mongers just because they don't see things our way.


You also aren't required to follow through with this boycott.  If it doesn't meet your standards of what an appropriate response to OSC's actions should be then by all means see or don't see his movie as you would have done before being told of this boycott.  Nobody is forcing you to miss seeing the movie or go see the movie.

If the company that is paying to make the movie decides that it's too much of a risk to have a movie based on the writing of a man that has managed to piss off a large and vocal enough segment of the population then so be it. It's their money to spend as they like. I'm aware the movie is made already so there is no way it's getting cancelled but still it was always in the hands of the producers.
 
2013-07-09 01:28:28 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Whether it is Chik-Fil-A, Hobby Lobby, or Ender's Game, I think we are going down the wrong path with all of this "They don't think the way we think, so they are bad people and must be punished!" mindset. Boycotts are fine and all, but not when they are predicated on a personal attack against someone's deeply held convictions or political views.


Nobody boycotted CFA for what the owner said, we boycotted CFA because they used corporate profits (to the tune of $5 million over several years) to fund ant-gay organizations, and they actively lobbied against gay rights. In fact, despite saying they've stopped donating to anti-gay groups, they still are.

Nobody is boycotting Hobby Lobby because they're Christian, they're boycotting HL because HL is trying to force other people to abide by the owner's religious beliefs.

Nobody is boycotting OSC because he's a bigot, we're boycotting him because he uses his fame and money as a bullhorn to oppress gays. He serves on the board for the National Organization for Marriage, an anti-gay group created specifically to pass Prop 8 in California. Please note: Orson Scott Card lives in North Carolina, not California. He's able to do all this because he earns enough money as a writer that he has a lot of free time.
 
2013-07-09 01:29:31 PM

Dhusk: OSC is a classic example of a successful creative who peaked early.

Happens to a bunch of them.  Other examples include George Lucas, Frank Miller, M. Night Shyamalan, and more.  They have a brief but intense period where they turn out pure gold but then slowly but surely lose whatever mojo they had and they spend the rest of their lives in a futile attempt to recapture it.

Not all of them turn crazy.  For example Lucas, while from most counts is still a little loopy, still was very constructive and went on to foster a lot of great technical innovations through his companies after his peak

But a lot of them do go a little nutty.  They get delusional and even megalomaniacal, refusing to believe their golden creative time is over.

Card is that all over.  Starting from about the 1990, you can see a very serious and steady decline in the quality of his novels and stories.  You read his current stuff, and you have a hard time believing this was the same guy who wrote Ender's Game.  It also tends to make them lash out and seek scapegoats, emotional and otherwise, to blame their loss on.  With OSC this was apparently the gay community.  Its sad in many ways.


It's a condition brillaintly decsribed by the They Might be Giants song "There's only two songs in me (and I just wrote the third)"
 
2013-07-09 01:29:40 PM

ArcadianRefugee: At best, you'll prevent him from being paid for the rights to another one.


Residuals and royalties from using characters he'd originally created.
 
2013-07-09 01:30:19 PM

BojanglesPaladin: I don't care if Orson Scott Card is a complete asshole douchebag, which by many accounts, he actually is. I don't particularly care how stringently and vigorously he has advocated against homosexuality and gay marriage.

He is entitled to be opposed to a rampant societal embracing of homosexuality. As a Mormon, that's what he believes, and frankly that is what every major religion believes. He is entitled to take whatever political stance he chooses.

And he is certainly also entitled to be criticized for opinions he broadcasts into the public arena, and we are all entitled to voice our opinions.

But I really dislike this notion that "failure to embrace homosexuality" makes you a bigot, or a homophobe, or a bad person. OSC may, in fact, be a bad person, but outside of a zealous attack on homosexuality, I haven't heard much, and prior to that, I believe he was well regarded and generally well liked.

Whether it is Chik-Fil-A, Hobby Lobby, or Ender's Game, I think we are going down the wrong path with all of this "They don't think the way we think, so they are bad people and must be punished!" mindset. Boycotts are fine and all, but not when they are predicated on a personal attack against someone's deeply held convictions or political views.

It's a free country. You aren't required to "think the right way" about anything, much less homosexuality. We may not agree, but our fellow Americans are perfectly entitled to disapprove of homosexuality. It's a valid position, whether we agree or not, and it doesn't automatically mean that they are hate-mongers just because they don't see things our way.

And we should stop trying to shut down dissenting opinions.


Try to understand, it's not just about "feeling differently" or "thinking the right way". This isn't just some bond measure or tax referendum they're supporting. The people and businesses you mentioned are fighting against equal treatment of citizens for no other reason than because their God says they're icky. And, at least in the case of OSC and CFA, they're actively involved in anti-gay groups. Card is on the board of NOM, which pushes an agenda of turning LGBT folks into ostracized second class citizens, whereas Chik-Fil-A donates profits to anti-gay groups with the same kind of agenda.

I vehemently disagree with these groups and what they aim to accomplish, so I go out of my way to not patronize businesses or support people that give money and support to them. Oddly, to some, this is the wrong thing to do because they might perceive it as being mean or disrespectful and would just encourage the braindead troglodytes who agree with them to go out and give them more business. At least to me, it's not about trying to put them out of business, it's about making damn sure none of MY money goes to support these vile groups. I could give two shiats if my behavior encourages Bubba-Joe-Billy-Bob and Auntie-Sister-Cousin-Mom Becky-Sue-Bob to stuff their faces with Chik-Fil-A before they watch Ender's Game, I absolutely WILL NOT give these people one damn cent of my money.
 
2013-07-09 01:31:25 PM
The Enemy's Gay Is Down!


/what?
//gate, dammit. gate.
///stupid farkheads that can't enunciate properly
 
2013-07-09 01:32:16 PM

PizzaJedi81: Magorn: off certain characters,

Considering who he's already killed, I can't think of who you could actually mean.


Well I've held off reading Cold Days because of other commitments but a short list includes Charity Carpenter, Father Forthill,  Murphy, and Mouse
 
2013-07-09 01:32:54 PM

bukijin: I loved the book when I was a kid. Didn't try and re-read it since then.

So I have to first politically vet every author, filmmaker, actor, artist and entertainer before I know if I can enjoy their art ??


Nah. I still watch Sean Penn movies even though he is a socialist fascist nutjob who would gladly sell your constitutional rights for a photo op.

If you boycott every good or service that somewhere along the line involved one person with whom you have an
ideological disagreement, you would probably be a hermit in a mud hut somewhere foraging for tubers.
 
2013-07-09 01:34:23 PM

Magorn: Charity Carpenter, Father Forthill, Murphy, and Mouse


The only one of those I disagree with is Forthill. Not that I want him to die, but his death could be one of those heartbreakers that spurs Harry to...I dunno, kick some unholy ass or something.

AND GO READ COLD DAYS NOW!
 
2013-07-09 01:34:59 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: PizzaJedi81: meat0918: At least C.S. Lewis is readable and enjoyable.

Well...before The Last Battle, anyway.

That one was worth it though, because C.S. Lewis is still the only author I know of who would end his series by killing off all of his main characters at once.


Susan's not dead. She's still alive as of book's end.
 
2013-07-09 01:38:21 PM

BojanglesPaladin: I don't care if Orson Scott Card is a complete asshole douchebag, which by many accounts, he actually is. I don't particularly care how stringently and vigorously he has advocated against homosexuality and gay marriage.

He is entitled to be opposed to a rampant societal embracing of homosexuality. As a Mormon, that's what he believes, and frankly that is what every major religion believes. He is entitled to take whatever political stance he chooses.

And he is certainly also entitled to be criticized for opinions he broadcasts into the public arena, and we are all entitled to voice our opinions.

But I really dislike this notion that "failure to embrace homosexuality" makes you a bigot, or a homophobe, or a bad person. OSC may, in fact, be a bad person, but outside of a zealous attack on homosexuality, I haven't heard much, and prior to that, I believe he was well regarded and generally well liked.

Whether it is Chik-Fil-A, Hobby Lobby, or Ender's Game, I think we are going down the wrong path with all of this "They don't think the way we think, so they are bad people and must be punished!" mindset. Boycotts are fine and all, but not when they are predicated on a personal attack against someone's deeply held convictions or political views.

It's a free country. You aren't required to "think the right way" about anything, much less homosexuality. We may not agree, but our fellow Americans are perfectly entitled to disapprove of homosexuality. It's a valid position, whether we agree or not, and it doesn't automatically mean that they are hate-mongers just because they don't see things our way.

And we should stop trying to shut down dissenting opinions.


Oh Jesus, FARK is full of really dense people.

No one is saying that OSC can't be a bigot, say anti-gay things, or write books. No one is saying that you should stop liking someone's work because their views aren't parallel to yours. Clint Eastwood and Arnold Schwarzenegger are Republicans, and I still watch their films.

What we are saying is that some of us are not going to give our money to OSC because as a board director of NOM, he uses that money to actively prevent people from having equal rights. If Stephen King started to use his profits to fund the KKK, I wouldn't give him a single cent either.

Card has a legal right to say what he wants, and we have also have a legal right to spend our money elsewhere.
 
2013-07-09 01:38:38 PM

zomega: Susan's not dead. She's still alive as of book's end.


I thought she got killed too and just went to hell because she liked boys and parties and wore stockings or something.
 
2013-07-09 01:40:55 PM

Super_pope: zomega: Susan's not dead. She's still alive as of book's end.

I thought she got killed too and just went to hell because she liked boys and parties and wore stockings or something.


neil gaiman has a really good short story about her. I think it's called "The Problem with Susan".
 
2013-07-09 01:42:07 PM

master of unlocking: Super_pope: zomega: Susan's not dead. She's still alive as of book's end.

I thought she got killed too and just went to hell because she liked boys and parties and wore stockings or something.

neil gaiman has a really good short story about her. I think it's called "The Problem with Susan".


Even more reading!
 
2013-07-09 01:42:08 PM

Egoy3k: Nobody is forcing you to miss seeing the movie or go see the movie.


Of course not, nor did I suggest that.

My point is a generalized "Can we all act like grown-ups and stop calling for a fatwah boycott against every damn person that doesn't share our viewpoint?

It is the "They don't think like we think they should think, so they should be punished" mindset that is so alarming here regardless of the effectiveness of the boycott. It is the intent, less than the action itself.

Egoy3k: If the company that is paying to make the movie decides that it's too much of a risk to have a movie based on the writing of a man that has managed to piss off a large and vocal enough segment of the population then so be it.


Good Point. Let's Boycott Lionsgate! Those homophobic supporting assholes! Boycott the Hunger Games, Red 2, Joss Whenon's Shaespear movie too! Heck, everyone burn their Hurt Locker and  Juno DVDs! teach those bastards a lesson! Besides, Lionsgate put out a Mel Gibson movie, so they are clearly homophobic anti-semites.

Nah. If it's a good movie, see it. If it sucks, don't.

Just stop this "boycott the wrongthinkers!!!!" nonsense.
 
2013-07-09 01:42:23 PM

Super_pope: zomega: Susan's not dead. She's still alive as of book's end.

I thought she got killed too and just went to hell because she liked boys and parties and wore stockings or something.




Nope, she's still alive but still not Saved.
 
2013-07-09 01:43:00 PM

Magorn: Heinlien had extremely strong, very right-wing poltical views, and he was not shy about sharing them in his essays, but in his novels and stories he was more circumspect, yes he wrote Starship Troopers, a book many consider to be an endorsement of fascism, but he wrote what many consider to be one of seminal works of the hippie culture Stranger in Stange Land at the exact same time.


Where do you get that assessment?  Or are we talking about the uber-derpy interpretation of his books by political activists?  Starship Troopers was extremely political (half the book is classroom lectures FFS) whereas Stranger in a Strange Land takes place in a utopian bubble.  In the latter case, politics only rears its ugly head long enough to serve as Jubal's antagonist and prove how awesome he is; he subsequently paves a nice wide path through it (with relative ease I might add) so Mike can start having hippie sex and make stuff disappear.   Both books are thought experiments so tightly controlled I can almost imagine them taking place in oversized petri dishes.  Nice food for thought, which is perhaps his greatest writing strength (the highest compliment of any serious writer is "your work made me think" and Heinlein certainly gets that honor), but anyone who thinks Heinlein had all the answers should be chained to a wall just to prevent them from running for public office.  The guy wrote some pretty entertaining hard sci-fi but his grasp of sociology was downright awful.

Ender's Game is the opposite, no?  Never read the book but I don't know anyone who'd describe it as political.  It's generally regarded as teen nerd wish fulfillment with a dash of gay.
 
2013-07-09 01:43:48 PM
Orson Scott Card, after all, still wrote a version of Hamlet in which the eponymous character's father was a gay

But what was Shakespeare's opinion on gay marriage?

THERSITES
Prithee, be silent, boy; I profit not by thy talk: thou art thought to be Achilles' male varlet.

PATROCLUS
Male varlet, you rogue! what's that?

THERSITES
Why, his masculine whore. Now, the rotten diseases of the south, the guts-griping, ruptures, catarrhs, loads o' gravel i' the back, lethargies, cold palsies, raw eyes, dirt-rotten livers, wheezing lungs, bladders full of imposthume, sciaticas, limekilns i' the palm, incurable bone-ache, and the rivelled fee-simple of the tetter, take and take again such preposterous discoveries!

[Gasp!] Boycott Shakespeare!
 
2013-07-09 01:44:01 PM

BojanglesPaladin: everyone burn their Hurt Locker


They should, but for other reasons. It's an overrated suckfest.
 
2013-07-09 01:46:59 PM

Mike Chewbacca: Nobody boycotted CFA for what the owner said, we boycotted CFA because they used corporate profits (to the tune of $5 million over several years) to fund ant-gay organizations, and they actively lobbied against gay rights. In fact, despite saying they've stopped donating to anti-gay groups, they still are.


Nobody boycotted CFA for what the owner said...
Nobody is boycotting Hobby Lobby because they're Christian...
Nobody is boycotting OSC because he's a bigot, ...


Yes. NONE of those boycotts were about punishing people who opposed gay marriage. Of course not. All perfectly justified. After all, these were bad people. You can tell because they had a different viewpoint and actually advocated that viewpoint in public and opposed the things they were opposed to. Only bad people would advocate in opposition to homosexuality, so it is perfectly reasonable for all of us to try to punish them.

I think you are missing the point. Here's a hint. I felt exactly the same way about the evangelicals calling for a boycott of Disney way back when they decided to offer healthcare benefits to same sex partners.
 
2013-07-09 01:48:00 PM

ThrobblefootSpectre: bukijin: I loved the book when I was a kid. Didn't try and re-read it since then.

So I have to first politically vet every author, filmmaker, actor, artist and entertainer before I know if I can enjoy their art ??

Nah. I still watch Sean Penn movies even though he is a socialist fascist nutjob who would gladly sell your constitutional rights for a photo op.

If you boycott every good or service that somewhere along the line involved one person with whom you have an
ideological disagreement, you would probably be a hermit in a mud hut somewhere foraging for tubers.


Card is "one person" who happened to be a part of Ender's Game?
 
2013-07-09 01:50:47 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Egoy3k: Nobody is forcing you to miss seeing the movie or go see the movie.

Of course not, nor did I suggest that.

My point is a generalized "Can we all act like grown-ups and stop calling for a fatwah boycott against every damn person that doesn't share our viewpoint?

It is the "They don't think like we think they should think, so they should be punished" mindset that is so alarming here regardless of the effectiveness of the boycott. It is the intent, less than the action itself.

Egoy3k: If the company that is paying to make the movie decides that it's too much of a risk to have a movie based on the writing of a man that has managed to piss off a large and vocal enough segment of the population then so be it.

Good Point. Let's Boycott Lionsgate! Those homophobic supporting assholes! Boycott the Hunger Games, Red 2, Joss Whenon's Shaespear movie too! Heck, everyone burn their Hurt Locker and  Juno DVDs! teach those bastards a lesson! Besides, Lionsgate put out a Mel Gibson movie, so they are clearly homophobic anti-semites.

Nah. If it's a good movie, see it. If it sucks, don't.

Just stop this "boycott the wrongthinkers!!!!" nonsense.


Why are you trying to get people to boycott the boycott?
 
2013-07-09 01:51:11 PM

Silly_Sot: Why is it 100% moral, perfect, and humane to boycott a product because someone involved in it has conservative views (Ender's Game) but stupid and intolerant to boycott a product because someone involved in it has liberal views (Dixie Chicks records)?

Let me guess, it's just another example of dogmatic hypocrisy.


I'll bite.

I don't recall OSC getting death threats and vandalism against him for his points of view.

The same people who railed against the Dixie Chicks for (respectfully) disagreeing with a sitting President have said and done much worse in regard to their response to his successor.  To the point where it becomes a textbook example of "dogmatic hypocrisy".

As has been pointed out, he does not just have   conservative views , but actively uses his finances and position to work against the interests of people that he now claims should have no problem giving him more money to continue with that agenda.  The hypocrisy is OSC's to display,  warning people to be careful of buying into a product that may be against their own interests is simply the Free Market and normal Political Discourse in action.

I have no problem with (and served to promote the freedom of) the KKK and American Nazi Parties in the exercise of their right to make themselves known as idiots in my eyes.   But I also don't go out of my way to donate to their causes.
 
2013-07-09 01:52:56 PM

ThreadSinger: BojanglesPaladin: Egoy3k: Nobody is forcing you to miss seeing the movie or go see the movie.

Of course not, nor did I suggest that.

My point is a generalized "Can we all act like grown-ups and stop calling for a fatwah boycott against every damn person that doesn't share our viewpoint?

It is the "They don't think like we think they should think, so they should be punished" mindset that is so alarming here regardless of the effectiveness of the boycott. It is the intent, less than the action itself.

Egoy3k: If the company that is paying to make the movie decides that it's too much of a risk to have a movie based on the writing of a man that has managed to piss off a large and vocal enough segment of the population then so be it.

Good Point. Let's Boycott Lionsgate! Those homophobic supporting assholes! Boycott the Hunger Games, Red 2, Joss Whenon's Shaespear movie too! Heck, everyone burn their Hurt Locker and  Juno DVDs! teach those bastards a lesson! Besides, Lionsgate put out a Mel Gibson movie, so they are clearly homophobic anti-semites.

Nah. If it's a good movie, see it. If it sucks, don't.

Just stop this "boycott the wrongthinkers!!!!" nonsense.

Why are you trying to get people to boycott the boycott?


Because they disagree with his stance on the issue. They're not thinking correctly.
 
2013-07-09 01:53:26 PM

xalres: Try to understand, it's not just about "feeling differently" or "thinking the right way". This isn't just some bond measure or tax referendum they're supporting. The people and businesses you mentioned are fighting against equal treatment of citizens for no other reason than because their God says


Are you saying that not only what they think is wrong, but that their religious convictions make those opinions invalid? Since when is religious conviction alone an insufficient reason to advocate? The validity of their positions is not determined by whether or not I agree with them.

xalres: I absolutely WILL NOT give these people one damn cent of my money.


Which is perfectly fine. I myself haven't bought gasoline from Shell in almost two decades because of their policies in Africa, particularly Nigeria. Give your trade to whomever you choose. Again, it is the "punish the wrongthinkers!" mentality that is the problem, not whether THIS particular issue is appropriate. Understand?
 
2013-07-09 01:54:13 PM

dragonchild: It's generally regarded as teen nerd wish fulfillment with a dash of gay.


I must have missed all those parts.
 
2013-07-09 01:54:53 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Egoy3k: Nobody is forcing you to miss seeing the movie or go see the movie.

Of course not, nor did I suggest that.

My point is a generalized "Can we all act like grown-ups and stop calling for a fatwah boycott against every damn person that doesn't share our viewpoint?

It is the "They don't think like we think they should think, so they should be punished" mindset that is so alarming here regardless of the effectiveness of the boycott. It is the intent, less than the action itself.

Egoy3k: If the company that is paying to make the movie decides that it's too much of a risk to have a movie based on the writing of a man that has managed to piss off a large and vocal enough segment of the population then so be it.

Good Point. Let's Boycott Lionsgate! Those homophobic supporting assholes! Boycott the Hunger Games, Red 2, Joss Whenon's Shaespear movie too! Heck, everyone burn their Hurt Locker and  Juno DVDs! teach those bastards a lesson! Besides, Lionsgate put out a Mel Gibson movie, so they are clearly homophobic anti-semites.

Nah. If it's a good movie, see it. If it sucks, don't.

Just stop this "boycott the wrongthinkers!!!!" nonsense.


You're so purposefully obtuse that it's laughable. Would you shop at a store owned by a guy, who in his off time, spent it marching up and down the street calling for the deaths of all Jews? Like maybe he sells really awesome scones, so you're willing to overlook the overwhelming amount of vitriolic hate that he otherwise champions. Because it would be childish to let something like the constant drumbeat for the genocide of all Jews to affect your desire for scones, right?
 
2013-07-09 01:56:37 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: ThrobblefootSpectre: bukijin: I loved the book when I was a kid. Didn't try and re-read it since then.

So I have to first politically vet every author, filmmaker, actor, artist and entertainer before I know if I can enjoy their art ??

Nah. I still watch Sean Penn movies even though he is a socialist fascist nutjob who would gladly sell your constitutional rights for a photo op.

If you boycott every good or service that somewhere along the line involved one person with whom you have an
ideological disagreement, you would probably be a hermit in a mud hut somewhere foraging for tubers.

Card is "one person" who happened to be a part of Ender's Game?


One part of the movie, yes. Hint: he didn't actually make the movie.
 
2013-07-09 01:56:52 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: obtuse


3.bp.blogspot.com

What? What did you call me?
 
2013-07-09 01:57:22 PM

Diogenes: kronicfeld: "We disagreed" is an utterly disingenuous characterization of the "debate."

That's like saying there was no racism during the slavery era.

If anything I get an icky feeling with his obsession over militarized little boys.


So much this.  The amazing irony of the OSC saga is that Ender's Game is totally homoerotic.  Ender expresses deep love for his fellow boys, but the young girls are almost uniformly antagonists.  SPOILER: one of the pivotal events of the book is a naked wrestling match.

I fear OSC's internet cache is smoother than a baby dolphin.
 
2013-07-09 01:57:58 PM

BizarreMan: Seems to me that short version is "we disagreed, you guys won.  let's move on."

Unlike some of the gay marriage opponents who are still up their eyeballs in a fight they've already lost.


He didn't "disagree." He devoted himself to actively working against equality for years. He was one of those hateful people who pressed the gay=pedo slander, too, which is one of the ugliest, least forgivable things that the anti-gay crowd did. I'm sure you "disagree" with people all the time without suggesting that they are child molestors.. Fark Orson Scott Card and his overrated Ender's Game.
 
2013-07-09 01:58:11 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Yes. NONE of those boycotts were about punishing people who opposed gay marriage. Of course not. All perfectly justified. After all, these were bad people. You can tell because they had a different viewpoint and actually advocated that viewpoint in public and opposed the things they were opposed to. Only bad people would advocate in opposition to homosexuality, so it is perfectly reasonable for all of us to try to punish them.

I think you are missing the point. Here's a hint. I felt exactly the same way about the evangelicals calling for a boycott of Disney way back when they decided to offer healthcare benefits to same sex partners.


What are you advocating, then?  Mindless consumerism?  Why is it okay to speak your mind, but not okay to speak with your wallet and ask others to do the same?

Also, as others have pointed out, advocating intolerance and condemning the intolerant are not two sides of the same coin.
 
2013-07-09 01:59:02 PM

ThrobblefootSpectre: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: ThrobblefootSpectre: bukijin: I loved the book when I was a kid. Didn't try and re-read it since then.

So I have to first politically vet every author, filmmaker, actor, artist and entertainer before I know if I can enjoy their art ??

Nah. I still watch Sean Penn movies even though he is a socialist fascist nutjob who would gladly sell your constitutional rights for a photo op.

If you boycott every good or service that somewhere along the line involved one person with whom you have an
ideological disagreement, you would probably be a hermit in a mud hut somewhere foraging for tubers.

Card is "one person" who happened to be a part of Ender's Game?

One part of the movie, yes. Hint: he didn't actually make the movie.


Ok, feel free to be guilted into a movie you don't want to see from a property created by a bigot because the best boy already got paid for his work he already did. Congratulations?
 
2013-07-09 01:59:38 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Just stop this "boycott the wrongthinkers!!!!" nonsense.


What do you think actually happens when someone decides to boycott something?  Do you actually believe that there is some magical phone directory of left leaning boycotters that actually has a significant impact on the economic prospects of multimillion dollar movies, nation wide retail outlets or chicken restaurants?

There isn't. Each boycott has to stand on it's own legs.  Basically all a boycott does is educate people about the issue and ask them to make a choice.  I had no idea that OSC was anything but a mediocre novelist before today. I am also sure that I'm not the only one to just learn this now.
 
2013-07-09 01:59:52 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Egoy3k: Nobody is forcing you to miss seeing the movie or go see the movie.

Of course not, nor did I suggest that.

My point is a generalized "Can we all act like grown-ups and stop calling for a fatwah boycott against every damn person that doesn't share our viewpoint?

It is the "They don't think like we think they should think, so they should be punished" mindset that is so alarming here regardless of the effectiveness of the boycott. It is the intent, less than the action itself.

Egoy3k: If the company that is paying to make the movie decides that it's too much of a risk to have a movie based on the writing of a man that has managed to piss off a large and vocal enough segment of the population then so be it.

Good Point. Let's Boycott Lionsgate! Those homophobic supporting assholes! Boycott the Hunger Games, Red 2, Joss Whenon's Shaespear movie too! Heck, everyone burn their Hurt Locker and  Juno DVDs! teach those bastards a lesson! Besides, Lionsgate put out a Mel Gibson movie, so they are clearly homophobic anti-semites.

Nah. If it's a good movie, see it. If it sucks, don't.

Just stop this "boycott the wrongthinkers!!!!" nonsense.


So, what, we should just accept his actively campaigning for stripping gay people of their dignity, if not their life? If he wants to hate gay people and homosexuality, he is more than welcome to do so. If others want to love gay people and homosexuality, they are more than welcome to do so as well. If they just want to be indifferent about it, the same applies. But the buck stops at using those beliefs to throw gay people into a lower caste or to outright murder them. Let's not mince words: that is exactly what many people are trying to do. Look up the funding history of the Ugandan death penalty bill for homosexuality and you will see a number of Americans are still pushing for gay people to be murdered.
 
2013-07-09 02:01:47 PM

ThreadSinger: Why are you trying to get people to boycott the boycott?


I like recursive loops?

FuryOfFirestorm: What we are saying is that some of us are not going to give our money to OSC because as a board director of NOM, he uses that money to actively prevent people from having equal rights.


Like the name. Original or New 52? ***

I get that you and others think that OSC qualifies for punishment because he really, truly, absolutely is an honest to god confirm bigot who does the most hatey hating while bigotting his bigotry with a bigot hate group. You are free to keep your money in your pocket. It's the increasingly reflexive use of the boycott as a punishment for people with whom we politically disagree.

As I pointed out above it was equally dumb and wrong for Evangelicals to boycott Disney for giving same sex benefits as it was for Pro-Gay people to boycott Chik-Fil-A for being anti-gay or whatever.


/***(If you say the new one without the professor, imma gonna boycott your posts!)
 
2013-07-09 02:01:48 PM
Card's statement indicates he doesn't agree with the court's decision, but he's not going to actively campaign against gay marriage anymore. Did his views on it change? Not likely.
 
2013-07-09 02:01:59 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Yes. NONE of those boycotts were about punishing people who opposed gay marriage. Of course not. All perfectly justified. After all, these were bad people. You can tell because they had a different viewpoint and actually advocated that viewpoint in public and opposed the things they were opposed to. Only bad people would advocate in opposition to homosexuality, so it is perfectly reasonable for all of us to try to punish them.

I think you are missing the point. Here's a hint. I felt exactly the same way about the evangelicals calling for a boycott of Disney way back when they decided to offer healthcare benefits to same sex partners.


People who are going to boycott this movie are doing it because its based on source material created by a person who spends his time and money working to target and harm a minority group.  They might very well enjoy this film if they saw it, but they aren't interested in contributing to the commercial success of a person who has indicated that he will spend at least some of that largess attempting to hurt other Americans because he believes its right.  They're not interested in HURTING him.  They're interested in not helping him.

In your Disney case, people are targeting a company that refuses to target and harm American citizens.  All that other stuff about not being interested in their money going to "X" is still true.

From certain viewpoints, these things can appear the same.  They only look that way if you're a dogmatic shiathead though.  In one situation you're not spending money on a product created by someone who supports abusing people.  In the other you're not spending money on a product because you want people to be abused.
 
2013-07-09 02:03:00 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Are you saying that not only what they think is wrong, but that their religious convictions make those opinions invalid?


Believe whatever the hell silliness strikes your fancy, but when you start trying to use the law as a cudgel to impose your narrow minded morality then, yes, you are completely and utterly wrong. "Because Jesus" is not a valid reason to deny citizens equal protection, and never will be, and such positions are not deserving of respect or acknowledgement as a serious political stance, it's just assholes being assholes because their God tells them they're right.
 
2013-07-09 02:03:50 PM

caddisfly: Diogenes: kronicfeld: "We disagreed" is an utterly disingenuous characterization of the "debate."

That's like saying there was no racism during the slavery era.

If anything I get an icky feeling with his obsession over militarized little boys.

So much this.  The amazing irony of the OSC saga is that Ender's Game is totally homoerotic.  Ender expresses deep love for his fellow boys, but the young girls are almost uniformly antagonists.  SPOILER: one of the pivotal events of the book is a naked wrestling match.

I fear OSC's internet cache is smoother than a baby dolphin.


Petra was one of Ender's first allies at battle school.  She remained a friend throughout (if I remember correctly).

Bonzo attacked Ender in the shower because that was a time when he was vulnerable.  I never saw it as being homoerotic.  It was a time when a group could isolate Ender and beat the shiat out of him.  He was naked because he was in the shower.
 
2013-07-09 02:05:11 PM

dragonchild: Ender's Game is the opposite, no? Never read the book but I don't know anyone who'd describe it as political. It's generally regarded as teen nerd wish fulfillment with a dash of gay.


art.penny-arcade.com
 
2013-07-09 02:06:55 PM

Super_pope: zomega: Susan's not dead. She's still alive as of book's end.

I thought she got killed too and just went to hell because she liked boys and parties and wore stockings or something.


Nope. Aslan specifically says "once a king or queen of Narnia, always a king or queen of Narnia."  Susan can always return to believing in Aslan whenever she's ready to, and isn't shunned from entering Narnia again. If that'd been the case, you'd think Edmund wouldn't be there - but he was accepted back.

Aslan = just and forgiving God, with a mane and claws and fangs.

Gotten into way too many debates over that one over the years.
 
2013-07-09 02:07:42 PM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: You're so purposefully obtuse that it's laughable. Would you shop at a store owned by a guy, who in his off time, spent it marching up and down the street calling for the deaths of all Jews?


Nope. Unless they were REALLY, REALLY good scones.

No seriously, for about 20 years I have refused to fill up at a Shell Station because I have issues with their policy in Africa. I don't shop at Wal-Mart. I'm all about not giving my money to people I do not approve of.

That is a different animal than all this calling for a fatwah boycott against political opponents. It is a subtle distinction perhaps, but a distinction with a difference.

I am not saying that OSC has not earned the ire directed at him, or that everyone is not perfectly entitled to give or not give money to the film or his books based on your individual conscience.

I am saying "Can we stop with the call for a boycott of anyone we disagree with politically? Everyone? Moratorium on punitive boycotts for dissenting political views please"?

That's it.
 
2013-07-09 02:09:19 PM

Gunny Highway: caddisfly: Diogenes: kronicfeld: "We disagreed" is an utterly disingenuous characterization of the "debate."

That's like saying there was no racism during the slavery era.

If anything I get an icky feeling with his obsession over militarized little boys.

So much this.  The amazing irony of the OSC saga is that Ender's Game is totally homoerotic.  Ender expresses deep love for his fellow boys, but the young girls are almost uniformly antagonists.  SPOILER: one of the pivotal events of the book is a naked wrestling match.

I fear OSC's internet cache is smoother than a baby dolphin.

Petra was one of Ender's first allies at battle school.  She remained a friend throughout (if I remember correctly).


Yeah, she was one of the most trusted members of his jeesh until she burned out and fell asleep during a battle.

Bonzo attacked Ender in the shower because that was a time when he was vulnerable.  I never saw it as being homoerotic.  It was a time when a group could isolate Ender and beat the shiat out of him.  He was naked because he was in the shower.

Same here.
 
2013-07-09 02:11:15 PM

Serious Black: Gunny Highway: caddisfly: Diogenes: kronicfeld: "We disagreed" is an utterly disingenuous characterization of the "debate."

That's like saying there was no racism during the slavery era.

If anything I get an icky feeling with his obsession over militarized little boys.

So much this.  The amazing irony of the OSC saga is that Ender's Game is totally homoerotic.  Ender expresses deep love for his fellow boys, but the young girls are almost uniformly antagonists.  SPOILER: one of the pivotal events of the book is a naked wrestling match.

I fear OSC's internet cache is smoother than a baby dolphin.

Petra was one of Ender's first allies at battle school.  She remained a friend throughout (if I remember correctly).

Yeah, she was one of the most trusted members of his jeesh until she burned out and fell asleep during a battle.

Bonzo attacked Ender in the shower because that was a time when he was vulnerable.  I never saw it as being homoerotic.  It was a time when a group could isolate Ender and beat the shiat out of him.  He was naked because he was in the shower.

Same here.


It's the 'no, you are!' mentality that makes people see it. OF COURSE someone must be the thing they dislike or make fun of, etc.
 
2013-07-09 02:12:34 PM

BojanglesPaladin: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: You're so purposefully obtuse that it's laughable. Would you shop at a store owned by a guy, who in his off time, spent it marching up and down the street calling for the deaths of all Jews?

Nope. Unless they were REALLY, REALLY good scones.

No seriously, for about 20 years I have refused to fill up at a Shell Station because I have issues with their policy in Africa. I don't shop at Wal-Mart. I'm all about not giving my money to people I do not approve of.

That is a different animal than all this calling for a fatwah boycott against political opponents. It is a subtle distinction perhaps, but a distinction with a difference.

I am not saying that OSC has not earned the ire directed at him, or that everyone is not perfectly entitled to give or not give money to the film or his books based on your individual conscience.

I am saying "Can we stop with the call for a boycott of anyone we disagree with politically? Everyone? Moratorium on punitive boycotts for dissenting political views please"?

That's it.


I'm going to personally boycott your posts starting now.
 
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