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(The Atlantic Wire)   Orson Scott Card adresses efforts to boycott "Ender's Game" because of the author's outspoken opposition to gay marriage. Short version: You godless heathens and filthy sodomites won, now stop oppressing me   (theatlanticwire.com) divider line 587
    More: Dumbass, boycotts, marriages  
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6742 clicks; posted to Geek » on 09 Jul 2013 at 10:23 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-09 11:50:37 AM

robohobo: I don't give two shiats about the guys politics. I do however care that all the kids at battleschool look to be in the mid-teens, instead of younger than ten. That defeats the whole point. I'll be seeing it anyhow, just in case it works, somehow.


You have to be lenient on that point.  Kids under ten tend to be lousy actors and because of child labor laws, there would be no way to complete the film before everyone was a teen anyway.  Game of Thrones had to age up all the kids and then hire actors a few years older anyway and still they struggle to get in 10 episodes per year.
 
2013-07-09 11:50:58 AM

Some Bass Playing Guy: I enjoyed Ender's Game.

But Card can EABOD.


^^THIS^^
 
2013-07-09 11:51:37 AM

angva: Also there was a side plot involving Ender's siblings strongly influencing politics by arguing on something like the internet. I thought it was incredibly stupid. It was like no one had up until then thought of making political arguments on the internet until those clever kids came along. And wow did they change everything!


Considering the book was written in 1985 that is somewhat revolutionary.
 
2013-07-09 11:51:37 AM

CheetahOlivetti: PizzaJedi81: The My Little Pony Killer: PizzaJedi81: meat0918: At least C.S. Lewis is readable and enjoyable.

Well...before The Last Battle, anyway.

That one was worth it though, because C.S. Lewis is still the only author I know of who would end his series by killing off all of his main characters at once.

Jim Butcher seems to be wanting to give it a go.

You had to remind me. I'm twitching waiting for the next book. I didn't think they'd be as good as Carey's Felix Castor series, but they're better once you get past the werewolves in book 2.


But Billy and the Werewolves makes such a good band name!

Any word on a release date for Skin Game yet?
 
2013-07-09 11:52:26 AM

The My Little Pony Killer: Strayha04: The My Little Pony Killer: Strayha04: The My Little Pony Killer: Strayha04: But aren't you also forcibly screwing over a bunch of other people who don't share the same views and are just trying to make a good/decent/okay movie?

Well, those people chose to work with somebody who is this openly bigoted. They are not innocent little snowflakes in this scenario.

While I understand what you mean... it's not like everyone knows this. I had no idea who this douche was until these articles about boycotts started popping up. I doubt everyone who is involved with the movie was given background information regarding the original author and told to choose between what they believe in or a paycheck.... Though I probably would have taken the paycheck regardless.

Fighting to give them a paycheck is fighting to give OSC a paycheck, and I will not support his bigotry. No, not even to support those who were unfortunate to be "stuck" working with him.

/none of them could have hopped on wikipedia to get an idea of the project they were about to work on?
//none of them at all?

Seriously though, do you wikipedia everyone you come into contact with? Imagine how many people work on a movie... I'm assuming at a minimum, it's maybe a couple hundred people from producers to gaffers. So if one of those people does something you don't like - you just refuse to work there?

The fact of the matter is that giving money to the folks who work with OSC is the same as giving money to OSC, since money will be going to OSC anyway. I choose not to support OSC. The people who work with OSC are in the middle of this, and that sucks for them, but you can't sit there and pretend that all this NOM/OSC stuff has been entirely and completely unknown to anybody for the past few years, including during production on the film.

No, I don't feel bad that they won't be getting as paid for this as they would have had they worked with somebody with even a shred of decency.


Unfortunately, this comes down to us both yelling at a brick wall. I understand and respect what you're trying to get at. As I said though, I have gone through almost 30 years without knowing about this guy or any of the crap he cares about. If I'd have read the book and loved it, only to find out the guy was a complete bigot, I don't genuinely think that would change my opinion about the original material.

There have been plenty of authors/actors/artists who have had highly questionable pasts. If we shunned everyone for being a douche bag...

/Again, never read the book, but the trailer looks mildly entertaining
 
2013-07-09 11:52:32 AM

PizzaJedi81: robohobo: Magician's Nephew and a Horse and His Boy are, I think, my two favorite from the series.

It's funny. HAHB is either someone's favorite, or their least favorite. I am in the latter category.


It's one of the 'least' Narnia of the Nania books, I think. Very little magic, very few talking animals. It isn't the most inventive. Boy who dreams of power(who's actually a prince) shuttling a biatchy princess across the desert(will they or won't they, will they or won't they, OF COURSE they will) along with their two talking steeds. Something there just works for me, I dunno. Especially they bit where Bree goes all badass towards the end.

There's also the whole Calormen angle that people seem to have a problem with. Product of it's times.
 
2013-07-09 11:52:45 AM

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: I don't particularly care whether he's a disgusting bigot--that's his business, not mine.

But I'll never forgive him for penning a sequel to Ender's Game. That was a standalone story if there ever was one.


Yeah, the sequels weren't very fresh.... I read them, but they were nowhere near as exciting as the original. I would have been happy with a single story.
 
2013-07-09 11:53:08 AM

master of unlocking: Egoy3k:
Lots of classical authors were racist homophobic dicks as a product of the times they lived in, their works are still considered great works.  OSC's crappy (or good) books are crappy (or good) without any knowledge of his bigotry.

Yea, but they're all dead, and not actively trying to oppress people.


This is a good point.  I can completely understand boycotting but it still seems to me that we should let 'art' (I really didn't care for that book) stand on it's own.

Then again I don't like the idea of my money going to some douche who will probably donate it to NOM.

Magorn: I think it would be very strange to be a Republican and a Fan of say Bruce Springsteen or Pete Seeger, less so of an equally liberal, but more apoltical singer like Johnny Cash (read the lyrics to Man in Black if you disacree with thtis characterization of Cash)


I saw Springsteen in concert last August, he wasn't particularly political then.  Of course it was a Canadian Venue so he probably assumed we didn't care, and he never stopped performing for longer than 10 seconds anyway.   For his age the guy is one hell of a performer.
 
2013-07-09 11:54:40 AM

Mikey1969: Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: I don't particularly care whether he's a disgusting bigot--that's his business, not mine.

But I'll never forgive him for penning a sequel to Ender's Game. That was a standalone story if there ever was one.

Yeah, the sequels weren't very fresh.... I read them, but they were nowhere near as exciting as the original. I would have been happy with a single story.


I thought Speaker of the Dead was a great mystery and expanded Ender's Universe beyond where my imagination had taken it after finishing Ender's Game.
 
2013-07-09 11:55:09 AM

HST's Dead Carcass: Here's the way I read it:

"Hey, guys. I'm about to make a metric farkton of money on this movie, but I know how Mob Rules go. If this 'OSC is a homophobe thing, so we should boycott his movie' thing gains traction, I'm farked. So, here, let me just say: The bad guys won. Ok? You got what you wanted, now you have to be the bigger man and quick picking on the losers, i.e. Me.

I mean, had we won, we wouldn't be chicken strutting around the country touting the victory in God's name, or taking to the interwebs to do our Church Lady Victory Dance in every forum, so why don't you do the same and go see my movie while not being sore winners. I promise to not call you names or attack you in God's name while the movie is in the theater, alright? Do we have a deal? You spend money on my movie and once it's done it's run in the theaters, I'll go back to calling you hedonistic heathens that spit in the face of God with your unnatural sex acts.

I'm glad we can be civilized about this."


So this is "Shut up and give me my money" from the other side.

Never read "Ender's Game". Never wanted to read it, controversy or not.
 
2013-07-09 11:56:40 AM

The My Little Pony Killer: Wade_Wilson: Expecting others to hold themselves to a higher moral standard than you hold yourself, is to admit that your own morality is inherently flawed.

I'm not asking him to hold himself to a higher standard, I'm asking him to have morals in the first place. HUUUUUUUGE difference.

/and no, 'muh bigotry' is NOT a moral


Not my point.

HE expects others to be more tolerant than he is. The man is an asshat.
 
2013-07-09 11:57:09 AM
I don't understand what exactly Card and people in this thread want us to do. Is Ender's Game entitled to our money? Do we not have the right to speak with our wallets for whatever reason we wish? What makes Card so special that refusing him money - that he was never entitled to in the first place - is an affront to his sense of decency. I'm seriously drawing a blank here. Do we as consumers have no right to determine where we spend our money?
 
2013-07-09 11:57:17 AM

Persnickety: robohobo: I don't give two shiats about the guys politics. I do however care that all the kids at battleschool look to be in the mid-teens, instead of younger than ten. That defeats the whole point. I'll be seeing it anyhow, just in case it works, somehow.

You have to be lenient on that point.  Kids under ten tend to be lousy actors and because of child labor laws, there would be no way to complete the film before everyone was a teen anyway.  Game of Thrones had to age up all the kids and then hire actors a few years older anyway and still they struggle to get in 10 episodes per year.


Oh, I know. It's kinda why I was hoping for a Pixar-esque feature as opposed to live action. I'm dying to see a good battleroom sequence, and I've always had a bit of a crush on Val(first read the book when I was like 11 or something). I'm going to try to be open when I see it. It just takes away a bit of the awesome of sending genius children to war. Teenagers have fought in wars forever. Not so many 12 year olds commanding a galactic fleet.
 
2013-07-09 11:58:43 AM
Ender's Game is set more than a century in the future and has nothing to do with political issues that did not exist when the book was written in 1984.

They existed Orson, you just willfully ignored it.

With the recent Supreme Court ruling, the gay marriage issue becomes moot.  The Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution will, sooner or later, give legal force in every state to any marriage contract recognized by any other state.

It is not moot. There's still discrimination. You don't get to decide when it's over, especially when you lost.

Now it will be interesting to see whether the victorious proponents of gay marriage will show tolerance toward those who disagreed with them when the issue was still in dispute.

Guess what, people don't have to tolerate your intolerance. You're a dickhead and a bigot, ignoring you would be a kind response, one you don't really deserve.

Verdict: He's reached Mel Gibson levels of non-apology on this one. "I'm sorry you're so gay. I'm sorry you have mental problems."
 
2013-07-09 12:00:58 PM

bdub77: but his books are also incredibly overrated.


Ender's Game was great, entertaining, unique, and had a nice twist. I also scored a random copy of something of his called Folk of the Fringe that I enjoyed. Beyond that, I only read the Ender sequels, and they weren't THAT good, but Ender shouldn't have had sequels anyway, as was previously mentioned, so it's no real surprise that he didn't get those to work as well.
 
2013-07-09 12:02:14 PM

JakeStone: meat0918: PizzaJedi81: meat0918: At least C.S. Lewis is readable and enjoyable.

Well...before The Last Battle, anyway.

Well, yeah.

That wasn't just heavy handed.  That was "fashion Revelations into a giant sledgehammer and beat you over the head with it".

I felt really dumb when I realized that The Last Battle was Revelations and then had to go back and find the Christianity in the previous books.  They were still a good read though, IMO.


Tolkien, the devout Catholic who actually converted Lewis from Atheism to Christianity, was famously displeased with what he felt was sloppy storytelling over obvious allegory in the Narnia books.   I have to say that as a young kid, 10-12 or thereabouts, I actually enjoyed them.   I was aware of how Christian they were fromt he get-go (largely because the first play I was ever in as a kid was an adaptation of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe put on by a local church) but I read an enjoyed them anyway , in part because they were F&SF my parents actively encouraged me to read, as opposed to the rest of it which they were vaguely suspicous of.  His Sci-fi is much more difficult sledding, but overall better writing, but still basically Christian allegory, albeit much more theologically advanced than the Narnia series which in his opinion were YA novels.

My parents at the time also gifted me several books by Steven Lawhead, who now is mostly known for his pretty decent Arthurian Myth-cycle retelling, was originally a writer of explicitly Christian Fantasy and SF-and for the Genre actually pretty damned readable.
 
2013-07-09 12:03:43 PM

PizzaJedi81: CheetahOlivetti: PizzaJedi81: The My Little Pony Killer: PizzaJedi81: meat0918: At least C.S. Lewis is readable and enjoyable.

Well...before The Last Battle, anyway.

That one was worth it though, because C.S. Lewis is still the only author I know of who would end his series by killing off all of his main characters at once.

Jim Butcher seems to be wanting to give it a go.

You had to remind me. I'm twitching waiting for the next book. I didn't think they'd be as good as Carey's Felix Castor series, but they're better once you get past the werewolves in book 2.

But Billy and the Werewolves makes such a good band name!

Any word on a release date for Skin Game yet?


Not yet. The Kindle version is on Amazon, but not available for pre-order yet.
 
2013-07-09 12:04:51 PM
Bender's Game was awesome.
 
2013-07-09 12:04:58 PM
Why is it 100% moral, perfect, and humane to boycott a product because someone involved in it has conservative views (Ender's Game) but stupid and intolerant to boycott a product because someone involved in it has liberal views (Dixie Chicks records)?

Let me guess, it's just another example of dogmatic hypocrisy.
 
2013-07-09 12:05:53 PM

Kinek: Magorn: yukichigai: bdub77: This is mostly why I won't see Ender's Game and why I stopped reading his books after I found out what type of person he was. Even if he weren't a homophobe, Orson Scott Card is a raging asshole. That's not to say I haven't enjoyed plenty of books and movies written by raging assholes, but his books are also incredibly overrated. Meh.

The difference is, he doesn't inject his bigotry or his raving assholism into his books for the most part.  That's why I have no problem reading what he writes.

He may have distressing personal views, but at least he isn't trying to use his books as a medium to push those views.  Go look at someone like John Norman or L. Ron Hubbard.

Funny thing about John Norman..I met him once, and he was a tweedy, mousy little guy who was absolutely his wife's biatch, and was actually sort of horrified that people existed who used his books a blueprint for real-life relationships (yes they do exist....they're one step below furries on the "Who get to point an Laugh at Who" chart of geeky kinks)

I had to wikipedia who John Norman was.

And yes, Gor is below Furries, Anybody who does BDSM, and even nerds who write Dr. Who-Picard Slashfic. Even Furry Dr. Who Picard Slashfic.


I'd never heard of Gor either.  After a little Googling...

images1.wikia.nocookie.net
Why yes, this is certainly relevant to my interests....

Then Googling further....

images.encyclopediadramatica.se

Nope...  I'm thinking the reality doesn't quite measure up to the fantasy there.
 
2013-07-09 12:06:42 PM

Strayha04: Seriously though, do you wikipedia everyone you come into contact with?


If I'll be manning an IT desk at a 200-person company I've never heard of, probably not (though I did wiki several companies I was interviewing with). If I'll be working on a major motion-picture with them (or based on their work) I might.

More out of curiosity than anything else, but if I got word that (for example) the principal designer of my prospective company's flagship product was a raging racist/anti-Semite, I might decline to work there or start looking for new work.

Look, I like some of Rush's early Rand-inspired songs (though that was only the lyrics - the music itself wasn't inspired by selfishness so far as we know), and Wagner wrote some pretty good music as well. Separate the art from the artist, sure, but recognize that an artist's views may make them...difficult to work with, or that working with them may result in the propulsion of themes and images which may be counter to your own beliefs.
 
2013-07-09 12:06:44 PM

CheetahOlivetti: Not yet. The Kindle version is on Amazon, but not available for pre-order yet.


Out of curiositym what did you think of Changes, Ghost Story and Cold Days, plot-wise?
 
2013-07-09 12:06:57 PM
Saying you can appreciate the work and can somehow separate the art from the creator is akin to appreciating a lamp made out of human skin.

"It's a nice lamp, very uh, radiant..uh...oh god."

You can't. Art is reflective of the individual, the two are forever emotionally linked. Hitler's paintings take on extra meaning when you learn about his other activities.

So, no. I feel like I've bitten into a chocolate that had the illusion of awesome, and was filled with pus.
 
2013-07-09 12:08:48 PM

Three Crooked Squirrels: bdub77: but his books are also incredibly overrated.

The only one I've read is Ender's Game, and it is completely mundane.  It topped several Top X Sci-Fi books lists, so I read it and was completely underwhelmed.


I think I read it too, too late -- but I agree 100%.  It's really not terribly good.  Maybe it's better if you read it as a young kid.  If you're older, it's just a bunch of young boys having conversations and fights standing naked in showers (weird enough) and then some clever battle maneuvers.  Not a big deal when it's not being skeevy.  Didn't live up to its reputation.
 
2013-07-09 12:09:20 PM
Anyone bring up the twin conspiracy theories about the Ender series yet?  To wit - first that Ender's Game may have been an attempt at Hitler apologia, based on several loose parallels between Ender and Adolf, and second that the first Ender books were ghost written, leading to the large shifts in tone and release delays in later novels.

I don't buy the theories entirely, but they're hugely entertaining.
 
2013-07-09 12:09:21 PM

Silly_Sot: Why is it 100% moral, perfect, and humane to boycott a product because someone involved in it has conservative views (Ender's Game) but stupid and intolerant to boycott a product because someone involved in it has liberal views (Dixie Chicks records)?

Let me guess, it's just another example of dogmatic hypocrisy.


^This.

I'm not a fan of most boycotting these days because it seems to be fruitless. If you boycott Chick-fil-a because they're anti-gay, than that part of America that thinks being gay is icky is just going to boycott you right back and their sales are going to sky rocket.
 
2013-07-09 12:09:21 PM
bdub77:
This is mostly why I won't see Ender's Game and why I stopped reading his books after I found out what type of person he was. Even if he weren't a homophobe, Orson Scott Card is a raging asshole.

I want to be like this, but I can't help listening to Wagner once in a while, and let me tell you, that guy was a real asshole.

eg., from recent rock music alone:

John Lennon?  Asshole.
Dylan?  Asshole.
Jello Biafra?  Kind of an asshole.
Metallica?  Assholes.
Phil Spector?  He killed someone.  Super asshole!

So if you avoid the assholes, you end up with a couple of Cyndi Lauper CD's, some Henry Winkler shows (the ones that somehow didn't also star assholes), and the complete works of Sir Terry Pratchett on your shelf.  Not too shabby but it'll get boring eventually.
 
2013-07-09 12:09:29 PM

BizarreMan: dj_spanmaster: With the recent Supreme Court ruling, the gay marriage negro slavery issue becomes moot. The Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution 13th Amendment will, sooner or later, give legal force in every state to any marriage contract recognized by any other state make free every black man, woman, and child.

Now it will be interesting to see whether the victorious proponents opponents of gay marriage negro slavery will show tolerance toward those who disagreed with them when the issue was still in dispute.

There. That's better. While not at all equal in injustice, the comparison is still valid.

So no, Mr. Card. No tolerance for slavers - I mean, opponents of gay marriage. We the People are still attempting to ensure that all people are treated equally in the eyes of the law. Odd how 150 years changes things - R's used to be proponents of that equality!

Because holding someone as property is the same as not allowing Adam and Steve to get married?  That's where the gay rights people lose me.  That's not an apples to oranges comparison, it's freaking apples to squash.


As I'd said, the injustice of the two are not equal. One legally denies a person (slave) the ability to do really anything of their choosing; the other legally denies a person (homosexual) the ability to do one thing of their choosing. Here's the catch: merely understanding that statement means you recognize that they are both legal injustices.

Some people are okay with legal injustices - legislators make billions off of documented, legal corruption; the rich pay proportionally lower taxes than the lower class; competent children are frequently forced to obey their parents' will, even if what they desire is not best for them. If this is one you support, we can simply agree to disagree. I am not in support of any legal injustice.
 
2013-07-09 12:10:12 PM

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Three Crooked Squirrels: bdub77: but his books are also incredibly overrated.

The only one I've read is Ender's Game, and it is completely mundane.  It topped several Top X Sci-Fi books lists, so I read it and was completely underwhelmed.

I think I read it too, too late -- but I agree 100%.  It's really not terribly good.  Maybe it's better if you read it as a young kid.  If you're older, it's just a bunch of young boys having conversations and fights standing naked in showers (weird enough) and then some clever battle maneuvers.  Not a big deal when it's not being skeevy.  Didn't live up to its reputation.


Arent you almost always naked in the shower?
 
2013-07-09 12:10:14 PM

Znuh: So, no. I feel like I've bitten into a chocolate that had the illusion of awesome, and was filled with pus.


I'm stealing that.
 
2013-07-09 12:10:40 PM

KellyX: Now if you really want to fark with the anti-gay people, they should turn The Forever War into a movie =)


Eh, that could piss off people on both sides.  Seems to me that one of the assumptions is that sexuality is a choice and dependent on social reinforcement.
 
2013-07-09 12:11:52 PM
Well in the old testament god wanted certain groups of people put to death. This is one of the many reasons that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. He apparently later changed his mind and said love everyone. People all over the world have no problem with this.

People better stop thanking god cause he was said some offensive things and done horrible things to gays in his past.
 
2013-07-09 12:12:13 PM

Strayha04: Silly_Sot: Why is it 100% moral, perfect, and humane to boycott a product because someone involved in it has conservative views (Ender's Game) but stupid and intolerant to boycott a product because someone involved in it has liberal views (Dixie Chicks records)?

Let me guess, it's just another example of dogmatic hypocrisy.

^This.

I'm not a fan of most boycotting these days because it seems to be fruitless. If you boycott Chick-fil-a because they're anti-gay, than that part of America that thinks being gay is icky is just going to boycott you right back and their sales are going to sky rocket.


...What do you think the word boycott means?

No, other than what OSC call his bed.
 
2013-07-09 12:13:36 PM

Magorn: His Sci-fi is much more difficult sledding, but overall better writing, but still basically Christian allegory, albeit much more theologically advanced than the Narnia series which in his opinion were YA novels.


Ugg.  I slogged through Out of the Silent Planet about 15 years ago, and I honestly can't remember a thing about it.  I do recall that I gave up somewhere in the 2nd book and fortunately discovered Michael Flynn, so there was a plus to that little fiasco.

In theory, I'm a little more mature now, so maybe I'll give it another go.
 
2013-07-09 12:13:37 PM

Wade_Wilson: Strayha04: Silly_Sot: Why is it 100% moral, perfect, and humane to boycott a product because someone involved in it has conservative views (Ender's Game) but stupid and intolerant to boycott a product because someone involved in it has liberal views (Dixie Chicks records)?

Let me guess, it's just another example of dogmatic hypocrisy.

^This.

I'm not a fan of most boycotting these days because it seems to be fruitless. If you boycott Chick-fil-a because they're anti-gay, than that part of America that thinks being gay is icky is just going to boycott you right back and their sales are going to sky rocket.

...What do you think the word boycott means?

No, other than what OSC call his bed.


/You win this thread.
 
2013-07-09 12:14:35 PM

hinten: "Now it will be interesting to see whether the victorious proponents of gay marriage will show tolerance toward those who disagreed with them when the issue was still in dispute."

What exactly kind of a tolerance is he looking for here? That statement/threat doesn't even make any sense.


'I can be a hateful asshole all I want, but I DEMAND you take the high road.'
 
2013-07-09 12:16:05 PM
Wade_Wilson:

...What do you think the word boycott means?

No, other than what OSC call his bed.


Keyboard. New.  Owed.
 
2013-07-09 12:17:11 PM

Wade_Wilson: Strayha04: Silly_Sot: Why is it 100% moral, perfect, and humane to boycott a product because someone involved in it has conservative views (Ender's Game) but stupid and intolerant to boycott a product because someone involved in it has liberal views (Dixie Chicks records)?

Let me guess, it's just another example of dogmatic hypocrisy.

^This.

I'm not a fan of most boycotting these days because it seems to be fruitless. If you boycott Chick-fil-a because they're anti-gay, than that part of America that thinks being gay is icky is just going to boycott you right back and their sales are going to sky rocket.

...What do you think the word boycott means?

No, other than what OSC call his bed.


I think what he's saying is shouting 'boycott' is a waste of time. If you want to boycott, fine, do it. You needn't shout it to the sky. Cause one you do, there'll be throngs of people partaking of what you're boycotting, both people who oppose your views, and those who would partake just to be contrarian cause boycotters are loudmouts..Also boycotts are largely worthless and really only serve to make those doing the boycotting feel superior in some fashion.
 
2013-07-09 12:17:46 PM
Now it will be interesting to see whether the victorious proponents of gay marriage will show tolerance toward those who disagreed with them when the issue was still in dispute.

Okay, from this I gather that at this point the depth to which he's thought of what "tolerance" actually means in practice is to define it as "going to see the movie".

He can say and believe what he likes.  And I can ignore the movie and not put money in his pocket.
 
2013-07-09 12:18:24 PM

Arkanaut: KellyX: Now if you really want to fark with the anti-gay people, they should turn The Forever War into a movie =)

Eh, that could piss off people on both sides.  Seems to me that one of the assumptions is that sexuality is a choice and dependent on social reinforcement.


I haven't read that particular book, but there is evidence that there are elements of sexuality that are a choice.  Most people aren't 100% straight or 100% gay, but somewhere in the spectrum between the absolutes.  The choice doesn't come into play as 'I think I'm going to be straight, or, I think I'd like to be gay' but rather from choosing to acknowledge and act on the same-sex desires that most people have to one degree or another.

It wasn't uncommon for men in ancient Grecian and Roman armies to take part in homosexual relationships with each other, and then go back home to their wives after the war.  Plenty of men who would identify as straight voluntarily take part in homosexual relations in prison (though there are certainly some whose involvement is involuntary).

When in a society that accepts it or in a situation where there are no other options people seem to be more willing to indulge in sexual activity that would on the surface seem to go against their dominant sexual identity.
 
2013-07-09 12:19:28 PM
http://www.fark.com/comments/7833425/85254192#c85254192" target=_blank data-cke-saved-href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7833425/85254192#c8 5254192">robohobo: The My Little Pony Killer: PizzaJedi81: JakeStone: They were still a good read though, IMO.

Oh, totally. I'm not a BIG fan of Magician's Nephew and Horse and His Boy, but they're still good.

Know what I hate? When people read them starting with Magician's Nephew. Call me a pedant, but even though the world begins there, the STORY starts with Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe.

I would LOVE to see a Magician's Nephew movie with Tilda Swinton reprising her role as the White Witch.

A film where she gets to wreak havok in the real world? Hell yes!

Magician's Nephew and a Horse and His Boy are, I think, my two favorite from the series. And yes, the White Witch wreaking havoc in the real world(horse-drawn taxi and all) would be all kinds of awesome. There's no way in fark HAHB would ever get made, not without serious rewrites and race-casting changes,


Mine too.  As I've gotten older, The Silver Chair has risen in my estimation as well.

And yeah, HAHB would be impossible to cast and film right now without riots.  But Tilda Swinton beating the shiat out of turn of the century Bobbies?  Hellz yeah.  It's just a shame that Bob Hoskins is probably too old now to play the Cabbie.
http://www.fark.com/comments/7833425/85254192#c85254192" target=_blank data-cke-saved-href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7833425/85254192#c8 5254192">robohobo: The My Little Pony Killer: PizzaJedi81: JakeStone: They were still a good read though, IMO.

Oh, totally. I'm not a BIG fan of Magician's Nephew and Horse and His Boy, but they're still good.

Know what I hate? When people read them starting with Magician's Nephew. Call me a pedant, but even though the world begins there, the STORY starts with Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe.

I would LOVE to see a Magician's Nephew movie with Tilda Swinton reprising her role as the White Witch.

A film where she gets to wreak havok in the real world? Hell yes!

Magician's Nephew and a Horse and His Boy are, I think, my two favorite from the series. And yes, the White Witch wreaking havoc in the real world(horse-drawn taxi and all) would be all kinds of awesome. There's no way in fark HAHB would ever get made, not without serious rewrites and race-casting changes,


Mine too.  As I've gotten older, The Silver Chair has risen in my estimation as well.

And yeah, HAHB would be impossible to cast and film right now without riots.  But Tilda Swinton beating the shiat out of turn of the century Bobbies?  Hellz yeah.  It's just a shame that Bob Hoskins is probably too old now to play the Cabbie.  Maybe that british guy from Dead Like Me as Uncle Andrew?  He'd be sooo good at pathetic slimy.
 
2013-07-09 12:19:39 PM
Ah, yes, the age-old question of whether people who preach tolerance must tolerate intolerance. The answer, IMO, is no. If we tolerated intolerance, intolerance would win and would quickly extinguish tolerance. His views on gay people absolutely fit the extreme picture of intolerance. He called gays delusional and deviant, and he said he would "act to destroy" any government that tried to recognize marriages involving same-sex couples. These actions and verbal outbursts must be decried.
 
2013-07-09 12:21:16 PM
Card's PR folks need to tell him that he can't win this fight.  For one thing, the "boycott" won't make even a tiny dent in whatever the final box-office figures are for this film; for another, you can't argue against a boycott without CHANGING something.  If he's not going to change his views and actions (which have been virulently aggressively against gay people, not just gay marriage, up until now) then he should just ignore it.  You can't tell people who you are harming that it's not a problem.
 
2013-07-09 12:22:11 PM

Three Crooked Squirrels: bdub77: but his books are also incredibly overrated.

The only one I've read is Ender's Game, and it is completely mundane.  It topped several Top X Sci-Fi books lists, so I read it and was completely underwhelmed.


I had the same experience. And this was before his despicability came to light. *shrug*
 
2013-07-09 12:22:36 PM

Gunny Highway: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Three Crooked Squirrels: bdub77: but his books are also incredibly overrated.

The only one I've read is Ender's Game, and it is completely mundane.  It topped several Top X Sci-Fi books lists, so I read it and was completely underwhelmed.

I think I read it too, too late -- but I agree 100%.  It's really not terribly good.  Maybe it's better if you read it as a young kid.  If you're older, it's just a bunch of young boys having conversations and fights standing naked in showers (weird enough) and then some clever battle maneuvers.  Not a big deal when it's not being skeevy.  Didn't live up to its reputation.

Arent you almost always naked in the shower?


I haven't checked on how little boys stand around, talk, or have wrasslin' fights in showers, but apparently Orson Scott Card checks ALL THE TIME.
 
2013-07-09 12:23:32 PM

bdub77: This is mostly why I won't see Ender's Game and why I stopped reading his books after I found out what type of person he was. Even if he weren't a homophobe, Orson Scott Card is a raging asshole. That's not to say I haven't enjoyed plenty of books and movies written by raging assholes, but his books are also incredibly overrated. Meh.


Big big THIS.  I've read maybe half a dozen of his novels (way back, before I found out he was a raging bigot, and before I developed some taste in literature).  Every single one, I find myself finishing and thinking, "wow, that was a new and really fascinating premise, but I just wish the actual storytelling had been written by some more capable author."

Books need to have cover versions like songs do.
 
2013-07-09 12:23:34 PM

you have pee hands: TuteTibiImperes: It's been a while since I've read Ender's Game, but doesn't the book contain multiple scenes involving naked boys wrestling around with each other and whatnot?

This is broadening it a bit but why do sci fi writers all seem to love putting terrible sex scenes in their books?  Can't at least one of them get an editor that decides that the graphic descriptions of sex between future hermaphrodites or future 14 year olds or aliens or whatever doesn't really tell us anything important about the characters or advance the narrative and give those scenes the axe?


Yeah, because sex doesn't sell at all.................
 
2013-07-09 12:24:13 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Arkanaut: KellyX: Now if you really want to fark with the anti-gay people, they should turn The Forever War into a movie =)

Eh, that could piss off people on both sides.  Seems to me that one of the assumptions is that sexuality is a choice and dependent on social reinforcement.

I haven't read that particular book, but there is evidence that there are elements of sexuality that are a choice.  Most people aren't 100% straight or 100% gay, but somewhere in the spectrum between the absolutes.  The choice doesn't come into play as 'I think I'm going to be straight, or, I think I'd like to be gay' but rather from choosing to acknowledge and act on the same-sex desires that most people have to one degree or another.

It wasn't uncommon for men in ancient Grecian and Roman armies to take part in homosexual relationships with each other, and then go back home to their wives after the war.  Plenty of men who would identify as straight voluntarily take part in homosexual relations in prison (though there are certainly some whose involvement is involuntary).

When in a society that accepts it or in a situation where there are no other options people seem to be more willing to indulge in sexual activity that would on the surface seem to go against their dominant sexual identity.


Important to remeber that in greek and Roman societies Homosexuality was very frowned upon and usually very illegal.   However, farking another man was NOT considered homosexual behavoir so long as the person you were farking wasn't of equal station and rank as you, and you weren't the bottom in such an equal pairing, (OK if the man was higher rank/older/ your mentor, etc) AND even that was at least tolerated if you also gave your wife/the Republic a couple kids first
 
2013-07-09 12:24:18 PM

CarnySaur:  Orson Scott Card, after all, still wrote a version of Hamlet in which the eponymous character's father was a gay, as a way of explaining why he was a terrible king (Card also made Hamlet's father into a child molester).

Sounds like he's from the "gay = child molester" school of thought (Hi Dad!)


I had no idea such a thing even existed, until two weeks ago when I stuck in a car with a contractor that tried to bring up that very argument.  It took all I had not to straight up call him an ignorant bigot.

/would have made the rest of the trip very uncomfortable
//my boss probably wouldn't have been pleased either.
 
2013-07-09 12:25:17 PM

rwhamann: http://www.fark.com/comments/7833425/85254192#c85254192" target=_blank data-cke-saved-href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7833425/85254192#c8 5254192">robohobo: The My Little Pony Killer: PizzaJedi81: JakeStone: They were still a good read though, IMO.

Oh, totally. I'm not a BIG fan of Magician's Nephew and Horse and His Boy, but they're still good.

Know what I hate? When people read them starting with Magician's Nephew. Call me a pedant, but even though the world begins there, the STORY starts with Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe.

I would LOVE to see a Magician's Nephew movie with Tilda Swinton reprising her role as the White Witch.

A film where she gets to wreak havok in the real world? Hell yes!

Magician's Nephew and a Horse and His Boy are, I think, my two favorite from the series. And yes, the White Witch wreaking havoc in the real world(horse-drawn taxi and all) would be all kinds of awesome. There's no way in fark HAHB would ever get made, not without serious rewrites and race-casting changes,

Mine too.  As I've gotten older, The Silver Chair has risen in my estimation as well.

And yeah, HAHB would be impossible to cast and film right now without riots.  But Tilda Swinton beating the shiat out of turn of the century Bobbies?  Hellz yeah.  It's just a shame that Bob Hoskins is probably too old now to play the Cabbie.
http://www.fark.com/comments/7833425/85254192#c85254192" target=_blank data-cke-saved-href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7833425/85254192#c8 5254192">robohobo: The My Little Pony Killer: PizzaJedi81: JakeStone: They were still a good read though, IMO.

Oh, totally. I'm not a BIG fan of Magician's Nephew and Horse and His Boy, but they're still good.

Know what I hate? When people read them starting with Magician's Nephew. Call me a pedant, but even though the world begins there, the STORY starts with Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe.

I would LOVE to see a Magician's Nephew movie with Tilda Swinton reprising her role as the White Witc ...


Hoskins would be perfect. Too bad about the parkinsons, cause otherwise I don't think he's too old. I don't think I've ever pictured uncle Andrew as anything other than very cartoonish mad scientist, even amongst my brains otherwise live-action cast.

Puddleglum is one of my favorite characters. I annoy the ever-loving SHIAT out of my wife by doing what I imagine to be Puddleglum's voice, whenever we're discussing a less than ideal situation/meal/movie, etc.
 
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