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(Slashdot)   "Deus Ex" creator Warren Spector talks about starting his own (free) video-game academy, and about everything that's currently wrong in the gaming industry   (slashdot.org) divider line 89
    More: Interesting, Warren Spector, University of Coimbra, stipends, Richard Garriott, gray hair, UC Santa Cruz, epic mickey, Blizzard Entertainment  
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2462 clicks; posted to Geek » on 09 Jul 2013 at 11:24 AM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



89 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-07-09 09:37:37 AM
EA
DRM
Non-upgradable consoles.
 
2013-07-09 10:16:08 AM
cdn.gpforums.co.nz

Mass reinstalls for all!
 
2013-07-09 11:17:30 AM
Talk to Paul Rieche and Fred Ford II if you wanna know about how to develop a good game that's waaay ahead of its time.

I'm speaking of course of Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters.

Source code has been released and it's been ported to just about everything by enthusiastic fans.
 
2013-07-09 11:26:05 AM
I wish I was on enough ADHD meds to focus on gaming.
 
2013-07-09 11:28:17 AM
Deus EX has great replay value because it's fairly open but not in the cartoonie GTA sandbox way. You can play stealth or go cowboy and get different reactions. Games with good stories will have better replay value then GENERIC FPS 5! any day of the week. Outside of good multiplayer if you want a game to be a keeper the single player needs to have a story that pulls the player in, Deus Ex is one of the games that rises above the level of pulp media into something greater.

TL;DR
COD:Video Games::Danielle Steele:Literature
 
2013-07-09 11:29:39 AM

DanZero: [cdn.gpforums.co.nz image 750x600]

Mass reinstalls for all!


I never uninstalled it.

/Need to play The Nameless Mod again.
 
2013-07-09 11:30:20 AM

ambassador_ahab: Talk to Paul Rieche and Fred Ford II if you wanna know about how to develop a good game that's waaay ahead of its time.

I'm speaking of course of Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters.

Source code has been released and it's been ported to just about everything by enthusiastic fans.


*Silly Camper*. You think Orz are *many bubbles*, but actually, Orz is *fingers*.

Man,it would be nice if those two could make a sequel.

/And I mean an actual sequel. Star Control III does not exist. And they had no hand in it.
 
2013-07-09 11:30:27 AM

doglover: EA
DRM
Non-upgradable consoles.


Linear play followed by cut scene.  Rinse, repeat.
 
2013-07-09 11:31:16 AM
Massively bloated budgets is a big one. How can Tomb Raider sell 3.4 million copies in the first month and still be considered a financial failure?

Metacritic/Game Rankings are another. Not the actual service, but the tendency of publishers/financial backers to demand a guarantee of X% or better on those rankings or the developers suffer.
 
2013-07-09 11:31:48 AM

wildcardjack: I wish I was on enough ADHD meds to focus on gaming.


If you are unable to focus when playing video games, then you are playing the wrong video games. As an Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder sufferer, I can attest to the addictive nature of video games to individuals with such a condition.
 
2013-07-09 11:33:27 AM

ambassador_ahab: Talk to Paul Rieche and Fred Ford II if you wanna know about how to develop a good game that's waaay ahead of its time.

I'm speaking of course of Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters.

Source code has been released and it's been ported to just about everything by enthusiastic fans.




Heretic!

Melee!
 
2013-07-09 11:35:24 AM

DanZero: [cdn.gpforums.co.nz image 750x600]

Mass reinstalls for all!


I just picked up System Shock 2, must....not...not....enough.....time....to waste.....
 
2013-07-09 11:36:01 AM

Dimensio: wildcardjack: I wish I was on enough ADHD meds to focus on gaming.

If you are unable to focus when playing video games, then you are playing the wrong video games. As an Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder sufferer, I can attest to the addictive nature of video games to individuals with such a condition.


Oh, so you were the project lead for Duke Nukem Forever?
 
2013-07-09 11:36:16 AM
Top notch game developers selling out to Disney.
 
2013-07-09 11:38:17 AM

scottydoesntknow: Massively bloated budgets is a big one. How can Tomb Raider sell 3.4 million copies in the first month and still be considered a financial failure?


I have a feeling that the majority of the budget is going towards advertising.
 
2013-07-09 11:39:10 AM

Felgraf: ambassador_ahab: Talk to Paul Rieche and Fred Ford II if you wanna know about how to develop a good game that's waaay ahead of its time.

I'm speaking of course of Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters.

Source code has been released and it's been ported to just about everything by enthusiastic fans.

*Silly Camper*. You think Orz are *many bubbles*, but actually, Orz is *fingers*.

Man,it would be nice if those two could make a sequel.

/And I mean an actual sequel. Star Control III does not exist. And they had no hand in it.


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

It's all Archon.
 
2013-07-09 11:42:43 AM

scottydoesntknow: Metacritic/Game Rankings are another


Based on the interviews I have read by the guy who runs Metacritic, he would consider a restaurant given two stars by Michelin to only have a 67% score.
He is awful, and he is costing developers godawful amounts of incentive money by lumping all review systems into a singular percentage.
 
2013-07-09 11:44:11 AM

rjakobi: Dimensio: wildcardjack: I wish I was on enough ADHD meds to focus on gaming.

If you are unable to focus when playing video games, then you are playing the wrong video games. As an Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder sufferer, I can attest to the addictive nature of video games to individuals with such a condition.

Oh, so you were the project lead for Duke Nukem Forever?


No; unlike the developers of that game, I am aware of my own incompetence.
 
2013-07-09 11:45:22 AM

ambassador_ahab: Talk to Paul Rieche and Fred Ford II if you wanna know about how to develop a good game that's waaay ahead of its time.

I'm speaking of course of Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters.

Source code has been released and it's been ported to just about everything by enthusiastic fans.


My ex has encouraged me to play the game, as I have had no familiarity with it. I am finding what I have observed thus far to be intriguing.
 
2013-07-09 11:52:06 AM

StoPPeRmobile: Felgraf: ambassador_ahab: Talk to Paul Rieche and Fred Ford II if you wanna know about how to develop a good game that's waaay ahead of its time.

I'm speaking of course of Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters.

Source code has been released and it's been ported to just about everything by enthusiastic fans.

*Silly Camper*. You think Orz are *many bubbles*, but actually, Orz is *fingers*.

Man,it would be nice if those two could make a sequel.

/And I mean an actual sequel. Star Control III does not exist. And they had no hand in it.



It's all Archon.


Heh I just got a version of that on my phone. It's not bad.
 
2013-07-09 11:53:01 AM
He's saying EXACTLY what Chris Roberts has been saying... also why he's crowdfunding Star citizen. To take the suits out of the equation.

http://robertsspaceindustries.com/
 
2013-07-09 11:54:48 AM

js34603: StoPPeRmobile: Felgraf: ambassador_ahab: Talk to Paul Rieche and Fred Ford II if you wanna know about how to develop a good game that's waaay ahead of its time.

I'm speaking of course of Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters.

Source code has been released and it's been ported to just about everything by enthusiastic fans.

*Silly Camper*. You think Orz are *many bubbles*, but actually, Orz is *fingers*.

Man,it would be nice if those two could make a sequel.

/And I mean an actual sequel. Star Control III does not exist. And they had no hand in it.

It's all Archon.

Heh I just got a version of that on my phone. It's not bad.


If you guys want a StarControl-type game, check out SpacePiratesAndZombies (S.P.A.Z.) on Steam. it plays pretty similar, and it's great fun.
 
2013-07-09 11:54:48 AM

doglover: EA
DRM
Non-upgradable consoles.


Those are just symptoms. The disease is business people running the games industry.

And I don't know how you fix that. It seems like gaming is destined to be a victim of its own success. The resources required to develop a top-notch game can't be had unless you can woo investors--or run a successful kickstarter, but for every Star Citizen there are several projects that didn't get a dime.
 
2013-07-09 11:56:26 AM
Is the problem that every game is a first-person shooter set in the dystopian future that requires stealth gameplay?
 
2013-07-09 11:57:01 AM

Vertdang: He's saying EXACTLY what Chris Roberts has been saying... also why he's crowdfunding Star citizen. To take the suits out of the equation.

http://robertsspaceindustries.com/


As someone who pre-bought, if the game is half as a good as freelancer I'll be a happy camper.

//still waiting on a Wing Commander movie sequel
 
2013-07-09 11:59:08 AM

zedster: //still waiting on a Wing Commander movie sequel


There is no Wing Commander movie. Blair has only ever been played by Mark Hamill.

/Are we clear on that?
 
2013-07-09 12:00:10 PM

ambassador_ahab: Talk to Paul Rieche and Fred Ford II if you wanna know about how to develop a good game that's waaay ahead of its time.

I'm speaking of course of Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters.

Source code has been released and it's been ported to just about everything by enthusiastic fans.


YES. SC2 was the Mass Effect of it's day.

I mean that pretty much literally. When I found myself scanning planets for minerals, driving around the surface in a dune buggy, and romancing a blue babe, I knew SOMEONE at Bioware was a fan.
 
2013-07-09 12:00:37 PM
Deus Ex: Hong Kong: Penthouse:

There was no way I was going to be able to force myself through the security measures of her front door.  I wasn't really modded for the action hero solution.  Think, think...  Dammit, I can't lockpick my way either.  Inventory is low.

Crap.  Lemme run out around back.  Maybe there's something I'm not seeing.  Ah!  Some kind of service elevator.  I'll ride the roof of that to the top of the building.

Dammit.  Another locked door.  But what's this?  A skylight?  Lemme just creep out here a sec.  Whoa.  I can see the mark and her guards from up here.

heh.

<pulls out sword and smiles>

One whack and the glass shatters falling into the room below with me along for the ride.  Having the element of surprise I cap two of the body guards on the way down and run for cover.

THis might just be the most fun I've ever had in HKK.
 
2013-07-09 12:01:07 PM
I understand artists want to have their "vision" but someone has to be there to tell the artist that the vision is crap or unachievable and we're not going to waste $5M on something that doesn't work.

The problem with many game developers isn't their number-crunchers, testers, budget analysts, time-keepers, and management oversight.  That's actually the strength that bigger developers bring to the table.  Their problem is that they're using these tools while aiming for the WRONG TARGETS.

The goal of "good creative enjoyable game experience" is what they should be aiming for, but too often the direction and vision isn't coming from the creators but from a budget analyst who just wants to copy someone else's success.
 
2013-07-09 12:01:53 PM

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: zedster: //still waiting on a Wing Commander movie sequel

There is no Wing Commander movie. Blair has only ever been played by Mark Hamill.

/Are we clear on that?


okay pilgrim
 
2013-07-09 12:02:06 PM

doglover: EA
DRM
Non-upgradable consoles.


You want to upgrade something?  Get a pc

/pc gaming master race here
 
2013-07-09 12:04:29 PM
I was interested until I read that:

Spector, who earned a Masters from the University of Texas's radio, television, and film program in 1980, is busy developing the curriculum of Denius-Sams, which will offer a post-baccalaureate certificate. The program is named after two of its co-founders: Wofford Denius, an entertainment industry attorney who graduated from UT, and Paul Sams, the chief operating officer of Blizzard Entertainment.

Totally lost credibility at that point.
 
2013-07-09 12:05:35 PM

AntonChigger: doglover: EA
DRM
Non-upgradable consoles.

You want to upgrade something?  Get a pc

/pc gaming master race here


Over 30 posts before the first tool shiats on the thread! I think that's a new record.
 
2013-07-09 12:07:02 PM

Dimensio: My ex has encouraged me to play the game, as I have had no familiarity with it. I am finding what I have observed thus far to be intriguing.


Keep playing, ask lots of questions, and make sure to read a PDF or something of the story at the beginning of the original manual to make sure you understand the full back-story.  It's really important.  And visit the Androsynth's homeworld.
 
2013-07-09 12:11:28 PM
"What's wrong with video games" these days is that I'm 29 and now I have to do shiat like "work" and "cook for myself".  The big budget extravaganzas are more extravagant, the indies are better, more numerous, and more available, and 10 year old games are getting to be playable again because emulation is getting better.  I can buy most games without having to leave my apartment and they're stored digitally without wasting space.  If you still think Dues Ex or Planescape Torment are the best games ever made, you can probably buy them for less than $10.
 
2013-07-09 12:11:31 PM

Killroy69: Paul Sams, the chief operating officer of Blizzard Entertainment.

Totally lost credibility at that point.



Is there a specific story about Sams we should know about? He was with Blizzard from well before Activision started courting them.
 
2013-07-09 12:13:31 PM

ambassador_ahab: Dimensio: My ex has encouraged me to play the game, as I have had no familiarity with it. I am finding what I have observed thus far to be intriguing.

Keep playing, ask lots of questions, and make sure to read a PDF or something of the story at the beginning of the original manual to make sure you understand the full back-story.  It's really important.  And visit the Androsynth's homeworld.


Delta Tauri for all your strip mining needs.

/Bring a full compliment of ship engines
 
2013-07-09 12:21:20 PM

Cubicle Jockey: scottydoesntknow: Metacritic/Game Rankings are another

Based on the interviews I have read by the guy who runs Metacritic, he would consider a restaurant given two stars by Michelin to only have a 67% score.
He is awful, and he is costing developers godawful amounts of incentive money by lumping all review systems into a singular percentage.


THIS

I haven't worked for EA since 2010, but even then meetings would be littered with talk about metacritic ratings. I can only imagine how bad it eventually became.

I'd like to think it got better after JR left.
 
2013-07-09 12:22:05 PM
art.penny-arcade.com
 
2013-07-09 12:22:30 PM

BafflerMeal: Deus Ex: Hong Kong: Penthouse:

There was no way I was going to be able to force myself through the security measures of her front door.  I wasn't really modded for the action hero solution.  Think, think...  Dammit, I can't lockpick my way either.  Inventory is low.

Crap.  Lemme run out around back.  Maybe there's something I'm not seeing.  Ah!  Some kind of service elevator.  I'll ride the roof of that to the top of the building.

Dammit.  Another locked door.  But what's this?  A skylight?  Lemme just creep out here a sec.  Whoa.  I can see the mark and her guards from up here.

heh.

<pulls out sword and smiles>

One whack and the glass shatters falling into the room below with me along for the ride.  Having the element of surprise I cap two of the body guards on the way down and run for cover.

THis might just be the most fun I've ever had in HKK.


That is why the game was so damn awesome. There was always a way to do something. If you were set for stealth, you could find a way to progress even in areas where firepower seemed the easiest solution.

The hangar in HK was another area. You could blast all the guards or do what I liked to do and sneak into the service tunnels and release the gas to take them all out without a shot. It's not like newer games where you had to do it that way because it had to fit into the following cinema when you left the area. Even when you tried to break the game (by killing the cyborg agent on the plane, for instance). you didn't break the game but instead set it down a whole new path of the story. In my mind when I saw that, I said "How did they know someone would try and booby trap the plane?" And it changed several lines of dialogue between the characters later in the story. It's that kind of planning and storytelling that I loved about DX.
 
2013-07-09 12:27:51 PM

scottydoesntknow: Massively bloated budgets is a big one. How can Tomb Raider sell 3.4 million copies in the first month and still be considered a financial failure?


That made me sad, since I think the reboot was pretty good too. I don't think even the original Tomb Raider games did as well as what they were expecting this time around.
 
2013-07-09 12:34:17 PM

Vertdang: js34603: StoPPeRmobile: Felgraf: ambassador_ahab: Talk to Paul Rieche and Fred Ford II if you wanna know about how to develop a good game that's waaay ahead of its time.

I'm speaking of course of Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters.

Source code has been released and it's been ported to just about everything by enthusiastic fans.

*Silly Camper*. You think Orz are *many bubbles*, but actually, Orz is *fingers*.

Man,it would be nice if those two could make a sequel.

/And I mean an actual sequel. Star Control III does not exist. And they had no hand in it.

It's all Archon.

Heh I just got a version of that on my phone. It's not bad.

If you guys want a StarControl-type game, check out SpacePiratesAndZombies (S.P.A.Z.) on Steam. it plays pretty similar, and it's great fun.




Has to be multiplayer so that there are tears to harvest.
 
2013-07-09 12:36:17 PM

zedster: Deus EX has great replay value because it's fairly open but not in the cartoonie GTA sandbox way. You can play stealth or go cowboy and get different reactions. Games with good stories will have better replay value then GENERIC FPS 5! any day of the week. Outside of good multiplayer if you want a game to be a keeper the single player needs to have a story that pulls the player in, Deus Ex is one of the games that rises above the level of pulp media into something greater.

TL;DR
COD:Video Games::Danielle Steele:Literature


Pretty much yeah.  The problem is that Deus Ex fails every current metric used to determine project viability.   When you have focus groups that are nothing but 18 - 25 year old males (despite the average gamer being mid-30's), preferably at College and people running around saying you can't have a female lead (unless it's Ellen Ripley).

/Ripley held a Class 2 license, she didn't know how to use anything nastier than what amounted to a ikkle forklift.
// Her starship piloting skills not being terribly effective.
 
2013-07-09 12:37:51 PM
Three biggest things wrong with the gaming industry:
EA
EA
EA
 
2013-07-09 12:43:21 PM

scottydoesntknow: Massively bloated budgets is a big one. How can Tomb Raider sell 3.4 million copies in the first month and still be considered a financial failure?

Metacritic/Game Rankings are another. Not the actual service, but the tendency of publishers/financial backers to demand a guarantee of X% or better on those rankings or the developers suffer.


Bloated budgets are the kind of burden of movies and games now. A few times really big games or movies justify them but most of the time the developers just think more money=always better quality. I heard The Witcher 2 was almost $10 million in budget and that game is farking excellent. The people at CD Projekt Red knew where to coordinate and concentrate their resources instead of "Alright blank check let us just make everything realistic and explosion prone!"

And yeah, a shame on Square Enix with the Tomb Raider reboot. I actually thought it was going to suck but it apparently impressed my closest friend who played the games back in the 90s. I blame the corporate desire for games to be the next Mario/Zelda/Call of Duty and sell like hotcakes. The crap will eventually fly back into their faces and they'll learn from it...I hope.
 
2013-07-09 12:45:05 PM

FunkyBlue: BafflerMeal: Deus Ex: Hong Kong: Penthouse:

There was no way I was going to be able to force myself through the security measures of her front door.  I wasn't really modded for the action hero solution.  Think, think...  Dammit, I can't lockpick my way either.  Inventory is low.

Crap.  Lemme run out around back.  Maybe there's something I'm not seeing.  Ah!  Some kind of service elevator.  I'll ride the roof of that to the top of the building.

Dammit.  Another locked door.  But what's this?  A skylight?  Lemme just creep out here a sec.  Whoa.  I can see the mark and her guards from up here.

heh.

<pulls out sword and smiles>

One whack and the glass shatters falling into the room below with me along for the ride.  Having the element of surprise I cap two of the body guards on the way down and run for cover.

THis might just be the most fun I've ever had in HKK.

That is why the game was so damn awesome. There was always a way to do something. If you were set for stealth, you could find a way to progress even in areas where firepower seemed the easiest solution.

The hangar in HK was another area. You could blast all the guards or do what I liked to do and sneak into the service tunnels and release the gas to take them all out without a shot. It's not like newer games where you had to do it that way because it had to fit into the following cinema when you left the area. Even when you tried to break the game (by killing the cyborg agent on the plane, for instance). you didn't break the game but instead set it down a whole new path of the story. In my mind when I saw that, I said "How did they know someone would try and booby trap the plane?" And it changed several lines of dialogue between the characters later in the story. It's that kind of planning and storytelling that I loved about DX.



http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2007/11/13/nonlinearity-in- le vel-design/


rooc.offtopicproductions.com
 
2013-07-09 12:46:17 PM

Felgraf: *Silly Camper*. You think Orz are *many bubbles*, but actually, Orz is *fingers*.


Ahh, memories. My roommate and I had SC2 and X-Wing, lots of time got lost that year.
 
2013-07-09 12:46:54 PM

Vertdang: If you guys want a StarControl-type game, check out SpacePiratesAndZombies (S.P.A.Z.) on Steam. it plays pretty similar, and it's great fun


I went to check it out and apparently I own it.  Must have come through one of my Humble Bundles, but my game backlog is reaching "realizing you went to class naked" levels of embarrassment, so I probably never would have played it.  It is installing now.  Thanks much!
 
2013-07-09 12:50:24 PM

cefm: I understand artists want to have their "vision" but someone has to be there to tell the artist that the vision is crap or unachievable and we're not going to waste $5M on something that doesn't work.


Artists need to STFU about their vision and deliver what the consumer wants or they can ditch the patron system and go indie along with all the risks associated with doing so.  After Mass Effect 3 and all the shilling (paid or otherwise makes no difference to me) about 'the integrity of the artistic vision' the whole lot of them need a reminder of who they are reliant on for their ability to work in that field i.e. US.


Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: zedster: //still waiting on a Wing Commander movie sequel

There is no Wing Commander movie. Blair has only ever been played by Mark Hamill.

/Are we clear on that?


Ahh the retcon retcon.  See the movie was, according to Roberts in the day much closer to his vision of what the Kilrathi should look like and how the universe should feel.  He actually had quite a major role in developing the story as well, so whilst you can blame the low budget stuff on well a low budget the whole black hole jumping math mutant thing is totally down to him.

Until the movie tanked and he retconned that part of his history.

Roberts also said the single reason why Wing Commander never had Newtonian flight in the game was limited processing capabilities of the day; which the game I-War shat all over.  I want to know what his current excuse is for not having Newtonian flight in Star Citizen is.

The man will happily retcon himself up his own asshole given half a chance.

brap: Is the problem that every game is a first-person shooter set in the dystopian future that requires stealth gameplay?


No.  It's that every game is a first-person shooter set in a dystopian future that has POOR stealth gameplay.  The original Splinter Cell was abysmal, it even advertised itself as being a Deus Ex style game (kill em and deal with the consequences or go stealthy and deal with those consequences) which was a blatant lie.

Stealth is fine, I've nothing against a stealth game.  I've a major problem with games announcing they let you adapt to circumstances and then going "Game Over" when it forces you to resort to 'Plan B'.
 
2013-07-09 12:52:14 PM

pyrotek85: scottydoesntknow: Massively bloated budgets is a big one. How can Tomb Raider sell 3.4 million copies in the first month and still be considered a financial failure?

That made me sad, since I think the reboot was pretty good too. I don't think even the original Tomb Raider games did as well as what they were expecting this time around.


Until The last of Us came out Tomb Raider was my favorite game of 2013. IMO it was much more entertaining than Bioshock Infinite and I cared a lot more about what happened to Laura Croft than I did Booker Dewitt and his female sidekick combined.

That said bioshock infinite was still a fun game, just that I wish it could have been less action and more exploration.  I think that Columbia was too cool of an environment to completely ignore and put tons of murderous assholes into.  When I first saw a sign outside of a shop that detailed the hours and days of the week that the store was 'docked' in that location I just imagined how awesome an open world Columbia would be.  I'm not one of those people who thinks that open world is always a good thing but that dynamic environment is almost begging to be made into an open world game.
 
2013-07-09 12:53:19 PM
So right before the students graduate, no matter what transpired before, they will be given a choice of multiple options and with each one warren will say something philosophical and then leave.
 
2013-07-09 12:53:26 PM
Loved Ultima Online in the 90's. Never played Deus Ex or System Shock. Almost finished with Bioshock Infinite, and it has been awesome.
 
2013-07-09 01:11:34 PM
Warren Spector was also responsible for Imvisible War and its terribly mechanics (don't just blame consoles, that game had other serious flaws.)

He hasn't produced anything good since and sold his soul to Disney and Nintendo.

Sorry Warren but y
 
2013-07-09 01:12:14 PM
Warren Spector was also responsible for Imvisible War and its terribly mechanics (don't just blame consoles, that game had other serious flaws.)

He hasn't produced anything good since and sold his soul to Disney and Nintendo.

Sorry Warren but you're practically a scam artist with the way you hyped IW.
 
2013-07-09 01:15:16 PM
I got Deus Ex bundled with my first major video card purchase. It was unlike anything I'd ever played up until that point.

As to big budgets and success, look at games like MineCraft. A single guy made it in his spare time, and after 3 years, it's sold more copies than WoW.
 
2013-07-09 01:15:16 PM
Deus Ex: Human Revolution was amazing. I never played the original Deus Ex, and I tried but couldn't get past the dated engine. But I really enjoyed the modern release, sans Boss Fights. A lesson learned in outsourcing your level/encounter design, I hope.
 
2013-07-09 01:15:35 PM
It is damn creepy that the first Deus Ex was released basically a year before 9/11. An international war on terror after an attack in New York? Secret prisons? Capture/Kill orders on American citizens?

The NSF are basically a mixture of the Tea Party, the "Patriot" movement and Alex Jones conspiracy kooks. Who end up shooting it out with security forces in the middle of Manhattan.
 
2013-07-09 01:24:56 PM

PiffMan420: It is damn creepy that the first Deus Ex was released basically a year before 9/11. An international war on terror after an attack in New York? Secret prisons? Capture/Kill orders on American citizens?

The NSF are basically a mixture of the Tea Party, the "Patriot" movement and Alex Jones conspiracy kooks. Who end up shooting it out with security forces in the middle of Manhattan.


Not really. The whole "two towers aren't even there!" Thing is pretty funny when you find out why they aren't there. Mib and body augmentations were they main devices to me, the other things are normal for practically any dystopian story.
 
2013-07-09 01:26:55 PM

Wade_Wilson: When I found myself scanning planets for minerals, driving around the surface in a dune buggy, and romancing a blue babe,


Not to mention the impressively rich back-story to the various alien races you encounter, plus the music was outstanding, especially in a time where music in games was crappy FM-synthesis MIDI.
 
2013-07-09 01:29:09 PM

Wade_Wilson: When I found myself scanning planets for minerals, driving around the surface in a dune buggy, and romancing a blue babe


Also, the wonderful injection of humor throughout the game.
 
2013-07-09 01:30:46 PM

Felgraf: *Silly Camper*. You think Orz are *many bubbles*, but actually, Orz is *fingers*


But they are good for *dancing* because they have the *Go! Go!*

And we all knew the Androsynth were just *silly cows* anyways.
 
2013-07-09 01:34:11 PM

you have pee hands: "What's wrong with video games" these days is that I'm 29 and now I have to do shiat like "work" and "cook for myself".  The big budget extravaganzas are more extravagant, the indies are better, more numerous, and more available, and 10 year old games are getting to be playable again because emulation is getting better.  I can buy most games without having to leave my apartment and they're stored digitally without wasting space.  If you still think Dues Ex or Planescape Torment are the best games ever made, you can probably buy them for less than $10.


http://www.gog.com/gamecard/deus_ex

http://www.gog.com/gamecard/planescape_torment

You are correct, sir!  $9.99 each.  I'm not sure about Deus Ex, but I do know that GOG puts together RPG and/or D&D bundles and I ended up getting all their D&D games (all 9, this was last summer before they had Neverwinter Nights 2) for $45 or so.  They run massive sales at the start of each summer, and any other time they feel like generating some sales.
 
2013-07-09 01:41:13 PM
I own Deus Ex but only because it came free with another package I bought. I tried installing it and playing it, but I didn't like it at all.
 
2013-07-09 01:47:28 PM
"Spector thinks executives give too much credence to data, and not enough to the artistic visions of game designers: "You can apply science, metrics, analytics, and data to all sorts of things in this world, but you can't apply it to art, and if you try you will fail." "

That made me feel all happy inside!
 
2013-07-09 01:49:26 PM

PirateKing: As to big budgets and success, look at games like MineCraft. A single guy made it in his spare time, and after 3 years, it's sold more copies than WoW.


That was less a testament to innovation than it was to the untapped Autism market.
 
2013-07-09 02:00:56 PM
I don't think there is anything wrong with the industry. There are more unique, niche, and mainstream games coming out than ever before. Think about how it wasn't that long ago that 90% of all games were 13 level generic platform jumpers. And they were STILL 60 bucks a pop.


I don't like the simplistic EA garbage either, but I don't play it. There is something for everyone, if you just look.
 
2013-07-09 02:04:26 PM

gameshowhost: PirateKing: As to big budgets and success, look at games like MineCraft. A single guy made it in his spare time, and after 3 years, it's sold more copies than WoW.

That was less a testament to innovation than it was to the untapped Autism market.


I sincerly doubt that the autism market was untapped. I've heard people talk about high end WoW raiding gear...

I play Minecraft thanks to the amazing mod community that changes the game from Lego to Erector/Mechano with fusion reactors. And if you find a good server, it changes the mood entirely.

ALl I have to say to the nay-sayers is that if you've ever played a game where you wished you could do something other than ride the rails down the story provided to you, then you might enjoy MineCraft.

If you can get past the blocky graphics, that is. Some people are superficial like that.

 It's not for everyone, but it HAS changed the industry. Lots more people are willing to pay for games in early development stages now, and developers are willing to go that route more often.
 
2013-07-09 02:05:00 PM

gameshowhost: PirateKing: As to big budgets and success, look at games like MineCraft. A single guy made it in his spare time, and after 3 years, it's sold more copies than WoW.

That was less a testament to innovation than it was to the untapped Autism market.


I don't like what you are insinuating.

/your post contained 247 characters
 
2013-07-09 02:16:48 PM

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: zedster: //still waiting on a Wing Commander movie sequel

There is no Wing Commander movie. Blair has only ever been played by Mark Hamill.

/Are we clear on that?


This is the retcon retcon.  Roberts stated in the past that the look of the Kilrathi, the feel of the universe and yes, even the black hole jumping math mutants was all him and he was never a fan of the 'giant cat' look the video game had forced him in to.  Right up until the movie tanked and he then retconned the retcon and the pilgrims never existed and the Kilrathi look like cats.  But if you poke around the internet you can pretty much get it to the exact second he changes his story.

It similar to Wing Commander's lack of Newtonian flight.  Originally Roberts said that this was due to processing constraints (on the systems of the day).  Then at around the same time WC2 was released a much smaller title called I-War appeared which had.... Newtonian flight and ran reasonably well on a 386sx. I'm still waiting to hear his excuse as to why Star Citizen doesn't have Newtonian flight as it can not be due to a lack of processing power in this day and age.

The point being that Chris Roberts is only to happy to not only hype himself up but should Star Citizen not deliver on the promises made by him he'll quite happily attempt to retcon his own words.  It's the major reason I didn't give that kickstarter any money and advised several friends not to either: he simply isn't trustworthy.

Which is a major problem in the video game industry: too many people won't put their hands up and accept they screwed up, someone else is always to blame even if that someone else is the customer who brought it.
 
2013-07-09 02:31:40 PM
As someone who's been gaming for 24 years I greatly appreciate his attempt to spur creativity and originality in the gaming community.  But he's absolutely wrong about an analytical and metrics based approach leading to failure.

Such constraints may lead to a lack of creativity leading to stagnation but it clearly doesn't prevent people from buying games - There is always a new generation of gamers for whom an idea is new and exciting even if it isn't for people that like to complain about how games aren't what they used to be.  Beyond that there are other factors that take aging gamers away form gaming, factors that cannot be manipulated or controled by the gaming industry.  Time to face the facts, the target market for video games is not aging gamers, which means creativity in the mainstream gaming world is dead.
 
2013-07-09 02:43:21 PM
Seems like Specter (once again) refuses to acknowledge the existence of indie game developers. Which is strange, because it also seems like he'd fit in better as an indie game designer than at big companies like Disney and EA that just want to crank out boring, big-budget explosion fests.
 
2013-07-09 03:08:35 PM

BafflerMeal: [rooc.offtopicproductions.com image 450x600]


That's a rather simplistic view of how the main plotlines work out. They have to have some progression to and endgame plotline. What I'm more referring to is that in the first level, your actions determined the dialogue of the game. If you went through the whole level and never killed anyone and only used stun weapons, your brother had a whole different line of speech than if you killed even just one. If you killed them all, it was different then, too, and some of that appeared later in further conversations.

Besides the dialogue, it wasn't about having linear plot points as much it was how you arrived at those plot points and the several different ways to do so. Do you go in the front door with guns blazing? Do you sneak through and stun the guards? Do you hack the terminals and have the security measures kill the guards and you walk in the front door?

Do you disable the bobby trap in the doorway? Blow it up? Find another route via the air ducts and not set it off at all?

Do you blow up the missle-toting robot patrolling around? Do you disable it with an EMP? Do you hack it and reprogram it to attack the guards?

It's decisions like that which make the game great. It's not about getting from Point A to Point B, it's the journey on the path between the two that is the adventure.
 
2013-07-09 03:40:51 PM

RedTank: As someone who's been gaming for 24 years I greatly appreciate his attempt to spur creativity and originality in the gaming community.  But he's absolutely wrong about an analytical and metrics based approach leading to failure.

Such constraints may lead to a lack of creativity leading to stagnation but it clearly doesn't prevent people from buying games - There is always a new generation of gamers for whom an idea is new and exciting even if it isn't for people that like to complain about how games aren't what they used to be.  Beyond that there are other factors that take aging gamers away form gaming, factors that cannot be manipulated or controled by the gaming industry.  Time to face the facts, the target market for video games is not aging gamers, which means creativity in the mainstream gaming world is dead.


I think he's half right. Metrics have some serious power, but are probably best wielding in the "we can go two ways here, let's look at the metrics" sense, not the "let's make a game using the metrics as a spec" sort of way. When you go the latter you just end up with an industry full of bandwagon-chasing-here's-our-grity-modern-shooter-answer-to-call-of-du ty games.

Then there's always the other consideration: what if something tests badly because it's never been done (or at least done well) before. There could be an huge untapped market just waiting to throw money at the first to explore it. Sure, it's a risk v. reward thing, but we're getting to the point now where there's always a scale of developer for whom the gamble makes sense. Then if it's successful, the big guys see the metrics and those elements pulled into AAA titles.

FunkyBlue: It's decisions like that which make the game great. It's not about getting from Point A to Point B, it's the journey on the path between the two then looking around at Point B and saying "farking hell, there was a duct that exits there!?" that is the adventure.

 
2013-07-09 03:52:31 PM
EA
Activision


NEXT!
 
2013-07-09 04:02:49 PM

FunkyBlue: It's not about getting from Point A to Point B, it's the journey on the path between the two that is the adventure.


That's what made SCII so awesome.  You had to figure out the plot to learn what the objective was.  Then had to figure out how to do it.
 
2013-07-09 04:13:54 PM

ThreadSinger: Deus Ex: Human Revolution was amazing. I never played the original Deus Ex, and I tried but couldn't get past the dated engine. But I really enjoyed the modern release, sans Boss Fights. A lesson learned in outsourcing your level/encounter design, I hope.


To be fair SE Montreal was under pressure from up top due to the utter fail that was FF14.  They had to outsource to get the game finished for the new deadline.  The in-house DLC was much better and allowed for the non-lethal boss takedown.
 
2013-07-09 04:14:26 PM

DanZero: [cdn.gpforums.co.nz image 750x600]

Mass reinstalls for all!


Heh. Indeed. I'm actually in the middle of a DX:IW playthrough (I've played DX a zillion times, own DX:IW and DX:HR but haven't played them before -- I always got sidetracked). IW isn't bad, per se, but it's nowhere near as good as the first one. We'll see how it and HR go.

/loves Mass Effect
 
2013-07-09 04:17:03 PM

mokinokaro: Warren Spector was also responsible for Imvisible War and its terribly mechanics (don't just blame consoles, that game had other serious flaws.)

He hasn't produced anything good since and sold his soul to Disney and Nintendo.

Sorry Warren but y


I was on a project ruined by Spector. Not a fan.
 
2013-07-09 04:37:06 PM

DanZero: [cdn.gpforums.co.nz image 750x600]

Mass reinstalls for all!


Coincidentally, I just reinstalled Deus Ex for the first time in 13 years.  No, that is not because it wasn't installed previously, it's because my existing install of the game has been chugging along just fine since I installed it back in 2000.  Seems it finally ran its course.

FunkyBlue: BafflerMeal: Deus Ex: Hong Kong: Penthouse:

There was no way I was going to be able to force myself through the security measures of her front door.  I wasn't really modded for the action hero solution.  Think, think...  Dammit, I can't lockpick my way either.  Inventory is low.

Crap.  Lemme run out around back.  Maybe there's something I'm not seeing.  Ah!  Some kind of service elevator.  I'll ride the roof of that to the top of the building.

Dammit.  Another locked door.  But what's this?  A skylight?  Lemme just creep out here a sec.  Whoa.  I can see the mark and her guards from up here.

heh.

<pulls out sword and smiles>

One whack and the glass shatters falling into the room below with me along for the ride.  Having the element of surprise I cap two of the body guards on the way down and run for cover.

THis might just be the most fun I've ever had in HKK.

That is why the game was so damn awesome. There was always a way to do something. If you were set for stealth, you could find a way to progress even in areas where firepower seemed the easiest solution.

The hangar in HK was another area. You could blast all the guards or do what I liked to do and sneak into the service tunnels and release the gas to take them all out without a shot. It's not like newer games where you had to do it that way because it had to fit into the following cinema when you left the area. Even when you tried to break the game (by killing the cyborg agent on the plane, for instance). you didn't break the game but instead set it down a whole new path of the story. In my mind when I saw that, I said "How did they know someone would try and booby trap the plane?" And it changed several lines of dialogue between the characters later in the story. It's that kind of planning and storytelling that I loved about DX.


It's that attention to detail, as well as the attention to detail the game has for everything else. Go through the first two missions sometime and read everything you possibly can in-game: books, newspapers, news terminals, emails....  It is a STAGGERING amount of text there.  Someone sat down and wrote all of that, and then made sure it all fit with the game's plot.  That same care was paid to the major plot points themselves, and all the little side-things you can do during various portions of the game, all the characters, critters, level design, items, so on.  It's just a very, very complex world that has a lot of detail on the surface and even more behind it.

BafflerMeal: http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2007/11/13/nonlinearity-in- le vel-design/


rooc.offtopicproductions.com


Jonas always comes up with the most interesting things.  The entire TNM team is really quite remarkable.

mokinokaro: Warren Spector was also responsible for Imvisible War and its terribly mechanics (don't just blame consoles, that game had other serious flaws.)


That was mostly Harvey Smith, not Spector.  Ol' Harv is the one who decided on the whole "Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Ammo" scheme and most of the other controversial changes.

The other thing is, IW wasn't a bad game, it was just bad compared to its predecessor.  It was a really big step backwards was the problem, but it was still better than most games out at the time.

The plot makes me twitch involuntarily though to this day. "Let's cram all the endings of the last game into one big complicated ending that makes absolutely no sense, and then completely change the personality and motivations of every character who made it into the second game."  Yeah, great idea there.

PirateKing: I got Deus Ex bundled with my first major video card purchase. It was unlike anything I'd ever played up until that point.


Got mine with my sound card.  Still have the disc on hand too.

I felt the same when I first played it.  I'd gotten the hang of WASD maybe two years prior, but did so on your standard "shoot everything" fare of FPSes.  I get into Deus Ex and suddenly I was all squishy and malleable and not able to faceroll 20 dudes at a time.  Hell of a learning curve on that one.  I got it though, as evidenced by the fact that I'm still modding the damn game.  No really, I'm just working on integrating the latest HDTP as we speak.

Heims: you have pee hands: "What's wrong with video games" these days is that I'm 29 and now I have to do shiat like "work" and "cook for myself".  The big budget extravaganzas are more extravagant, the indies are better, more numerous, and more available, and 10 year old games are getting to be playable again because emulation is getting better.  I can buy most games without having to leave my apartment and they're stored digitally without wasting space.  If you still think Dues Ex or Planescape Torment are the best games ever made, you can probably buy them for less than $10.

http://www.gog.com/gamecard/deus_ex

http://www.gog.com/gamecard/planescape_torment

You are correct, sir!  $9.99 each.  I'm not sure about Deus Ex, but I do know that GOG puts together RPG and/or D&D bundles and I ended up getting all their D&D games (all 9, this was last summer before they had Neverwinter Nights 2) for $45 or so.  They run massive sales at the start of each summer, and any other time they feel like generating some sales.


Deus Ex makes semi-frequent appearances on sale lists all over the place.  I got my Steam copy for $3 I think.  Might've been $5.  Can't remember.

Definitely worth picking up, for any of you who haven't played it yet.  If you somehow can't afford $10 then rejoice!: Deus Ex was made in the days where games had these things called "demos".  The demo is still available out there on the interwebs.  It gives you the first little island area, but there's a separate patch you can install that expands it to cover your first trip in to NYC proper, including clear through the first "blow up this thing" mission.  It's probably about 5 hours of gameplay and they give it to you for free.  Hell, I know some full-price AAA titles that don't last much longer than that.

JohnnyC: I own Deus Ex but only because it came free with another package I bought. I tried installing it and playing it, but I didn't like it at all.


Go back and give it another shot.  Once you get the "rules" down, especially regarding how AI detection routines work, it becomes a lot more manageable.

Oh yeah, Pepper Spray: it's not useless.  If you don't have enough firepower to take down a whole bunch of dudes before they can kill you, you can always just pepper spray the whole mess of them followed by vigorous repeated applications of the Stun Prod.
 
2013-07-09 05:01:27 PM
yukichigai:

Oh yeah, Pepper Spray: it's not useless.  If you don't have enough firepower to take down a whole bunch of dudes before they can kill you, you can always just pepper spray the whole mess of them followed by vigorous repeated applications of the Stun Prod.

Truth.  It's one of the most useful weapons in the game and takes up barely any inventory space at all.  I'd combo it with the baton to save stun prod ammo.
 
2013-07-09 05:26:15 PM

Magnanimous_J: I don't think there is anything wrong with the industry. There are more unique, niche, and mainstream games coming out than ever before. Think about how it wasn't that long ago that 90% of all games were 13 level generic platform jumpers. And they were STILL 60 bucks a pop.


I don't like the simplistic EA garbage either, but I don't play it. There is something for everyone, if you just look.




I wonder what kind of gamer Socrates would have been?
 
2013-07-09 05:28:06 PM

Flappyhead: yukichigai:

Oh yeah, Pepper Spray: it's not useless.  If you don't have enough firepower to take down a whole bunch of dudes before they can kill you, you can always just pepper spray the whole mess of them followed by vigorous repeated applications of the Stun Prod.

Truth.  It's one of the most useful weapons in the game and takes up barely any inventory space at all.  I'd combo it with the baton to save stun prod ammo.


The problem with Pepper-then-Baton is that when you smack them they tend to magically get better in the eye department and start running away from you at high speed.  Then you're running after the dude trying to smack him in the back of the dome, and if you take too long the other guy will clear his eyes before you can get back to him and start shooting you.

The Stun Prod keeps them all jitterey and stops them from moving.  I'd be willing to revise that to Pepper-Stun-Baton though, since once you have 'em stunned a single use of the Baton should be enough to take them down.  Again, saves ammo, and you really do need Stun Prod ammo for some things, MiBs and WiBs especially.
 
2013-07-09 05:35:48 PM

PirateKing: stopnotlikingwhatilike

I feel terrible. My most sincere apologies.

Egoy3k: gameshowhost: PirateKing: As to big budgets and success, look at games like MineCraft. A single guy made it in his spare time, and after 3 years, it's sold more copies than WoW.

That was less a testament to innovation than it was to the untapped Autism market.

I don't like what you are insinuating.

/your post contained 247 characters


^ this is how to respond to snark
 
2013-07-09 06:03:50 PM
I couldn't finish the first level of deus ex.  the goddamn footsteps drove me crazy.  quit right then and there.
 
2013-07-09 06:26:18 PM
yukichigai:

The Stun Prod keeps them all jitterey and stops them from moving.  I'd be willing to revise that to Pepper-Stun-Baton though, since once you have 'em stunned a single use of the Baton should be enough to take them down.  Again, saves ammo, and you really do need Stun Prod ammo for some things, MiBs and WiBs especially.

Interesting.  I'll have to try that myself.  I had succes with the baton because I had the timing down to where I could hit him in the head as I was approaching so he didn't have a chance to run before the second whack hit.  Then I'd turn to his buddy and repeat.
 
2013-07-09 07:12:25 PM
I still haven't finished the first DX. I didn't pick it up back in the day because I didn't do much PC gaming back then.  I did pick up DX:IW since it was out shortly after I started PC gaming more seriously. When I picked up the DX bundle on Steam sometime last year I attempted to play the first game and I just can't do it. I can't really figure out what it is, because I can still go back and play older games with shiattier or just as bad graphics with similar gameplay like MGS, but I can't seem to keep my interest up in that first level of DX.

I loved DX:HR though, even the whole stop and do a boss fight thing people biatched about. Sure some of the boss fight mechanics were kinda meh, and the fact that if you spent the right points you could kill a boss in 2-4 hits was kinda off but no game is perfect. I know people biatched about there being bossfights at all but I grew up playing games in the 80s, boss fights where you suddenly find yourself in a large area fighting some dude was pretty standard.
 
2013-07-09 08:57:04 PM

Dingleberry Dickwad: I still haven't finished the first DX. I didn't pick it up back in the day because I didn't do much PC gaming back then.  I did pick up DX:IW since it was out shortly after I started PC gaming more seriously. When I picked up the DX bundle on Steam sometime last year I attempted to play the first game and I just can't do it. I can't really figure out what it is, because I can still go back and play older games with shiattier or just as bad graphics with similar gameplay like MGS, but I can't seem to keep my interest up in that first level of DX.


http://www.moddb.com/mods/new-vision

Won't make your DE experience utterly contemporary or anything, but at least it addresses the graphics.

The game is vastly superior to IW and HR; it's rich with content, story, characters, etc.
 
2013-07-10 03:49:24 AM
I have always liked the Deus Ex series because it is a great transhumanist epic with great gameplay.  The Hindus have the Ramayana, we transhumanists have Deus Ex.

Maybe off topic but shouldn't we should establish transhumanism as a religion and get tax exempt status.  All donations collected could be used to fund research into relevant projects such as the SENS foundation or AI research.  That way people who donate money have a good chance of getting something out of it for themselves and the rest of mankind unlike with other churches that worship invisible sky fairy/mountain djinn/zombie prophet/imaginary friend(s)/whatever else dumbasses worship.
 
2013-07-10 05:35:39 AM

Dingleberry Dickwad: I loved DX:HR though, even the whole stop and do a boss fight thing people biatched about. Sure some of the boss fight mechanics were kinda meh, and the fact that if you spent the right points you could kill a boss in 2-4 hits was kinda off but no game is perfect. I know people biatched about there being bossfights at all but I grew up playing games in the 80s, boss fights where you suddenly find yourself in a large area fighting some dude was pretty standard.


The problem was that the boss fights were only balanced assuming you were not optimizing for any stealth or non-lethal abilities, which was really jarring given that every level leading up to one of these bosses involved a lot of "you can get around this by being stealthy/hacky/sneaky" stuff.  Yeah, if you spec'd into all the killy-kill skills you were fine most times, but what about the Penny Arcade example, where if you specialized in hacking and stealth you first boss fight locked you in a room with someone who was literally immune to every ability you had at that point?  I even spec'd into a slightly different set - mostly stuff that let me KO people - and the guy was completely immune to that too.  Try to use your badass incapacitation moves?  Dude grabs your face and slams it into the ground.  Try to stun prod him? You get slapped, literally.  It was just plain bad design, especially since there's an achievement in the game for literally not killing anyone (other than bosses).  You have a degree of "combat freedom" in that game that even rivals the first (mandatory non-glitch personal kill count in DX1: 3), except for the bosses.

As far as what I did, I made sure to pick up the Explosive Mission Pack, one because I wanted the little jaunt in HK and two because I thought a Grenade Launcher might come in handy.  Sure enough, it did.  I started calling that Grenade Launcher my "Boss Fight Easy Button".  It took up space in my inventory where it was completely unused most of the time, but as soon as it was Boss Fight time that thing came out and dumped about 10 grenades into someone's face.

gameshowhost: Dingleberry Dickwad: I still haven't finished the first DX. I didn't pick it up back in the day because I didn't do much PC gaming back then.  I did pick up DX:IW since it was out shortly after I started PC gaming more seriously. When I picked up the DX bundle on Steam sometime last year I attempted to play the first game and I just can't do it. I can't really figure out what it is, because I can still go back and play older games with shiattier or just as bad graphics with similar gameplay like MGS, but I can't seem to keep my interest up in that first level of DX.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/new-vision

Won't make your DE experience utterly contemporary or anything, but at least it addresses the graphics.

The game is vastly superior to IW and HR; it's rich with content, story, characters, etc.


Also check out HDTP: http://www.moddb.com/mods/project-hdtp

Same idea as New Vision, but meshes and character models rather than art.  They've just released a beta as well, which you can find here: http://offtopicproductions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11566
 
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