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(Talking Points Memo)   Daniel Ellsberg defends Snowden--hey look. It's the old minister from Blazing Saddles. I thought he died   (livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 91
    More: Interesting, Daniel Ellsberg, ministers  
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1974 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Jul 2013 at 10:04 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-09 08:37:03 AM
Son, you're on your own.
 
2013-07-09 08:48:22 AM

kronicfeld: Son, you're on your own.


....and we're done here
 
2013-07-09 08:58:45 AM

somedude210: kronicfeld: Son, you're on your own.

....and we're done here


QFT.
 
2013-07-09 10:15:20 AM

somedude210: kronicfeld: Son, you're on your own.

....and we're done here


Almost...

"OH LORD...do we have the strength to completely destroy the NSA in just ONE NIGHT...or are we just jerking off...?"
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-07-09 10:16:54 AM
In US we are still listening to blowhard old white guys way too much.

These people are NOT smarter than your average person.  We need to stop treating them as such.
 
2013-07-09 10:21:08 AM
Back in the 60s when it was the "hard hats" against the "hippies," and the physically violent culture war of lower working class Republicans against upper middle class Democrats students, it's now hard to realize that Ellsberg was so protected.

It's almost like the turbulent 60s with a very active draft and a very active war still followed the rule of law because the leadership still believed in America.
 
2013-07-09 10:31:15 AM
How about we just stop giving TS/S/SCI clearances to unstable people?

/How about we stop having so many secrets, period.
 
2013-07-09 10:37:46 AM
With our recent history of holding people without trial, torturing them and sending them off to other countries to get worked over I can see why the dude isn't too keen on coming back.
 
2013-07-09 10:56:06 AM

HotIgneous Intruder: How about we just stop giving TS/S/SCI clearances to unstable people?

/How about we stop having so many secrets, period.


It's TS/SSBI for Top Secret/Single Scope Background Information or TS/SCI for Top Secret/Sensitive Compartmental Information. An S alone means Secret. If you want to know more, search the web via Google.

No biggie as the acronyms are confusing as Hell.

Yeap, the US government has a lot of secrets. Just the way it goes.

As for unstable people, a lot of people don't get clearances because they're unstable for alcohol, gambling, financial instability, etc. Go to the Defense Security Service website and check out why some people don't get clearances after investigations.

As for Snowdon, I have no answer. Ellsburg was a whistleblower, IMHO, on the origin and scope of the Vietnam War who alerted all Americans how we got into the war, while possibly saving lives by helping to end it. Snowdon seems more like an self-important opportunist, IMHO.
 
2013-07-09 11:01:34 AM

AirForceVet: Snowdon seems more like an self-important opportunist,


I don't see how he benefited from the information he released.I don't see how he could benefit in the future.Seeing how Snowden knew he was going to be at best, vilified and more likely, prosecuted (hence, he fled the country), he didn't see how he could benefit from releasing the information either.If there was no perceivable possibility of benefitting from his action, how can you describe him as an opportunist?
 
2013-07-09 11:04:31 AM
"The country I stayed in was a different America, a long time ago."


And Vietnam helped change it for the worse.

/thank you France, thank you Communist China, thank you Soviet Union, thank you CIA, thank you Greatest Generation, thank you Colt Arms, thank you General Electric, thank you lower ranked officers who needed a war for promotion, thank you Air America, thank you Thai drug lords, thank you military supply contractors, thank you Sikorsky, thank you General Dynamics, thank you Bell, thank you Hughes, thank you Boeing, thank you Monsanto, thank you rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shiat-kickers and Methodists.
 
2013-07-09 11:14:29 AM

HotIgneous Intruder: How about we just stop giving TS/S/SCI clearances to unstable people?

/How about we stop having so many secrets, period.


ravens4rooks.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-07-09 11:15:30 AM
Has the character assassination, ignore the message, kill the messenger show moved along to Ellsberg now? Neato.
 
2013-07-09 11:16:11 AM

AirForceVet: As for Snowdon, I have no answer. Ellsburg was a whistleblower, IMHO, on the origin and scope of the Vietnam War who alerted all Americans how we got into the war, while possibly saving lives by helping to end it. Snowdon seems more like an self-important opportunist, IMHO.


Opportunist for what?  Leaving his country, friends, family and former life forever?  As far as I know, he's gained nothing but headaches.

I've got a lot of questions about this guy, but if he were truly "opportunistic" he could have pre-arranged a big money deal with a US foe and revealed his info to them directly.

Then again, he may well be a simple attention whore.

The important thing is that we focus on him, and not the information he released.

I hear his girlfriend is hot...
 
2013-07-09 11:19:09 AM

Muta: AirForceVet: Snowdon seems more like an self-important opportunist,

I don't see how he benefited from the information he released.I don't see how he could benefit in the future.Seeing how Snowden knew he was going to be at best, vilified and more likely, prosecuted (hence, he fled the country), he didn't see how he could benefit from releasing the information either.If there was no perceivable possibility of benefitting from his action, how can you describe him as an opportunist?



Additionally, the man hasn't granted a single interview since the one he gave the Guardian prior to him being revealed as the leaker.
 
2013-07-09 11:23:47 AM

Evil High Priest: Has the character assassination, ignore the message, kill the messenger show moved along to Ellsberg now? Neato.


What was once old is new again.

// Watergate was about the coverup of the break-in to get Ellsberg's psychiatrist's file in an effort to "convict the sonofabiatch in the press" (quoting from Nixon)
// http://www.pbs.org/pov/mostdangerousman/film_description.php
 
2013-07-09 11:24:50 AM

AirForceVet: Snowdon seems more like an self-important opportunist, IMHO.


"seems like?" Based on what exactly?

I also would like to hear about all the enormous personal gains he got from his actions. Reportedly he gave up a $200K/year job, living in Hawaii, hot girl. Whatever he got in return must be pretty awesome.
 
2013-07-09 11:25:49 AM

tnpir: "OH LORD...do we have the strength to completely destroy the NSA in just ONE NIGHT...or are we just jerking off...?"


Tnpir Johnson is right! What kind of people are we anyhow? I say we stay and fight it out!
 
2013-07-09 11:32:34 AM

HotIgneous Intruder: How about we just stop giving TS/S/SCI clearances to unstable people?

/How about we stop having so many secrets, period.


How about we stop trusting everyone under thirty?
 
2013-07-09 11:37:56 AM

AntiNerd: AirForceVet: Snowdon seems more like an self-important opportunist, IMHO.

"seems like?" Based on what exactly?

I also would like to hear about all the enormous personal gains he got from his actions. Reportedly he gave up a $200K/year job, living in Hawaii, hot girl. Whatever he got in return must be pretty awesome.


Snowdon went to China and Russia, two countries that would pay handsomely for the kind of information he supposedly has on his laptop. I'm sure he won't be running out of money anytime soon.
 
2013-07-09 11:49:09 AM
Snowden looks like a guy I shared an office with. That guy was a gung-ho conservative, Limbaugh on the radio all day long -- yet somehow he managed to stay within the bounds of work rules. He was creepily rigid. If he were to flip out, he'd say the mission was not being accomplished -- he'd become a zealot.

With the stronger security wing of the military industrial surveillance complex, you could almost count secret holders in parts per million of the population.

However, the ones doing leaking for profit you'll never heard about.
 
2013-07-09 12:16:50 PM

Maud Dib: HotIgneous Intruder: How about we just stop giving TS/S/SCI clearances to unstable people?

/How about we stop having so many secrets, period.

[ravens4rooks.files.wordpress.com image 478x205]


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105435/">http://www.imdb.com/title/tt01 05435/

/for those who haven't heard of setec astronomy
 
2013-07-09 12:17:15 PM

Evil High Priest: Has the character assassination, ignore the message, kill the messenger show moved along to Ellsberg now? Neato.


www.morethings.com
 
2013-07-09 12:17:56 PM

YodaBlues: tnpir: "OH LORD...do we have the strength to completely destroy the NSA in just ONE NIGHT...or are we just jerking off...?"

Tnpir Johnson is right! What kind of people are we anyhow? I say we stay and fight it out!


YodaBlues Johnson is right about Tnpir Johnson being right!
 
2013-07-09 12:20:41 PM

YodaBlues: tnpir: "OH LORD...do we have the strength to completely destroy the NSA in just ONE NIGHT...or are we just jerking off...?"

Tnpir Johnson is right! What kind of people are we anyhow? I say we stay and fight it out!


YodaBlues Johnson is right about Tnpir Johnson being right!
 
2013-07-09 12:24:55 PM
Here's Exactly Who to Blame in Congress for Authorizing Government Spying

a lot of info

the part that made laugh the most

Medicare Physician Payment Reform Act of 2009, February 2010

(The "Medicare" bill, above, was gutted and re-written to accommodate three PATRIOT-related measures.)
 
2013-07-09 12:28:06 PM

YodaBlues: tnpir: "OH LORD...do we have the strength to completely destroy the NSA in just ONE NIGHT...or are we just jerking off...?"

Tnpir Johnson is right! What kind of people are we anyhow? I say we stay and fight it out!


YodaBlues Johnson is right about Tnpir Johnson being right!
 
2013-07-09 12:37:04 PM

tnpir: somedude210: kronicfeld: Son, you're on your own.

....and we're done here

Almost...

"OH LORD...do we have the strength to completely destroy the NSA in just ONE NIGHT...or are we just jerking off...?"


You'd do it for Randolph Scott...
 
2013-07-09 12:44:04 PM

d23: In US we are still listening to blowhard old white guys way too much.

These people are NOT smarter than your average person.  We need to stop treating them as such.


Except we never listen to the few old white guys that are smart.

assets.rollingstone.com

wordpress.outthereradio.net

cdn.theatlantic.com
 
2013-07-09 12:57:24 PM
I hope he enjoys his new-found freedom in Venezuela; he's certain to find it less oppressive than the USA.  What a dumbass.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-07-09 12:58:04 PM

UNC_Samurai: d23: In US we are still listening to blowhard old white guys way too much.

These people are NOT smarter than your average person.  We need to stop treating them as such.

Except we never listen to the few old white guys that are smart.

[assets.rollingstone.com image 306x373]

[wordpress.outthereradio.net image 550x306]

[cdn.theatlantic.com image 675x383]


Ike definitely was no blowhard :)

My grandfather was a local politician in my home town.  He was a Republican and I was proud of his service.  That's one of the reasons I get angry about the cesspool the GOP has become.  They weren't always about being lapdogs to the people that can pay them the most contributions.
 
2013-07-09 01:01:31 PM

Cubicle Jockey: Muta: AirForceVet: Snowdon seems more like an self-important opportunist,

I don't see how he benefited from the information he released.I don't see how he could benefit in the future.Seeing how Snowden knew he was going to be at best, vilified and more likely, prosecuted (hence, he fled the country), he didn't see how he could benefit from releasing the information either.If there was no perceivable possibility of benefitting from his action, how can you describe him as an opportunist?


Additionally, the man hasn't granted a single interview since the one he gave the Guardian prior to him being revealed as the leaker.


I think what makes the merit of his actions debatable is that he leaked info and/or requested asylum from the Russians and the Chinese; two countries with atrocious records on civil liberties that would also benefit the most from leaked top secret information.  That's like leaving a husband that occasionally yells at you for one that straight up beats you.

Unless he's deliberately put American lives in danger, or provided aid and comfort to an enemy, I don't think Snowden is a traitor but he does seem to have a bit of a Jesus complex, and he definitely lacks the courage of his convictions.  He could have leaked the information anonymously, or better yet for his cause, he could have dealt with the consequences of breaking what he obviously thinks is an unfair law.  He's not a political prisoner; he leaked top secret info he'd consciously sworn and was paid handsomely to protect.  This doesn't mean the NSA is justified in spying on its citizens, but either inadvertently or deliberately, by being on the run, Snowden has made the story about him.  I think by holding himself accountable for the leak, he would have ultimately centered the debate on how much privacy we're willing to trade for security.

And, that's where Snowden's plight is ultimately kind of futile.  A good number of Americans do feel like privacy is a fair compromise for security; most of us assumed this kind of monitoring was going on anyway.  9/11 scarred the nation's psyche into thinking this way, with the insane wave of jingoism and nationalism and the seemingly arbitrary terror alerts that scared us into thinking another attack was inevitable. In the end, those who are acting surprised by this kind of intrusion are just wanting to criticize Obama.
 
2013-07-09 01:07:57 PM

Zerochance: I think what makes the merit of his actions debatable is that he leaked info and/or requested asylum from the Russians and the Chinese


And that's the thing - every country with the means (and esp. those with state-controlled media and telephone)not only knew that the USA was doing this, but do it within their own countries, too.  From Russia to China, to Egypt and Iran - even pissant countries like N. Korea are all just hoping that their Snowdens don't get out.  The same leaders who are saying "shame on you America" are now double-checking the backgrounds of their own [NSA-equivalent] spies.
 
2013-07-09 01:33:38 PM
Daniel Ellsberg, the former military analyst who faced espionage charges for releasing the Pentagon Papers in 1971

So he's kind of like a "Snowden" of yesteryear?
 
2013-07-09 01:33:52 PM

highendmighty: I hope he enjoys his new-found freedom in Venezuela; he's certain to find it less oppressive than the USA.  What a dumbass.


Yes that is exactly what this is all about.  Snowden was only thinking of himself, how he could escape US oppression.
 
2013-07-09 01:44:55 PM
All the CIA will have to do to catch Snowden is send him a candygram.
 
2013-07-09 01:44:55 PM

Esc7: highendmighty: I hope he enjoys his new-found freedom in Venezuela; he's certain to find it less oppressive than the USA.  What a dumbass.

Yes that is exactly what this is all about.  Snowden was only thinking of himself, how he could escape US oppression.


yeah, living in Hawaii with a stripper must have been hell on earth!
 
2013-07-09 01:53:38 PM

Evil High Priest: Has the character assassination, ignore the message, kill the messenger show moved along to Ellsberg now? Neato.


It's sad to see the Fark Moderates replacing the Fark Independents as the most boot lickinist farkers ever.
 
2013-07-09 02:06:50 PM

Serious Post on Serious Thread: Evil High Priest: Has the character assassination, ignore the message, kill the messenger show moved along to Ellsberg now? Neato.

It's sad to see the Fark Moderates replacing the Fark Independents as the most boot lickinist farkers ever.


What is this
I don't even
 
2013-07-09 02:18:06 PM

Esc7: highendmighty: I hope he enjoys his new-found freedom in Venezuela; he's certain to find it less oppressive than the USA.  What a dumbass.

Yes that is exactly what this is all about.  Snowden was only thinking of himself, how he could escape US oppression.


It doesn't matter what the misguided intentions of attention whores are - the ends are:
1) it looks like he now will live under a virtual dictatorship
2) nothing will change here or in any other country that employs the same type of surveillance - i.e. all of them.
 
2013-07-09 02:26:47 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Then again, he may well be a simple attention whore.


I never said he was a smart opportunist.  I wrote he was a self-important opportunist, i.e. an attention whore. Actually he's pretty much a dumbass as well, again, IMHO.

Obviously he did NOT think his cunning plan through.
I I
 
2013-07-09 02:53:21 PM
Interview with NSA expert James Bamford

Q: What do you make of Edward Snowden's actions?

A: With regard to the information he released on domestic surveillance, I consider him a whistleblower. He revealed details of massive violations by the NSA of the privacy rights of all Americans. The NSA has no constitutional right to secretly obtain the telephone records of every American citizen on a daily basis, subject them to sophisticated data mining and store them forever. It's time government officials are charged with criminal conduct, including lying to Congress, instead of going after those exposing the wrongdoing.
 
2013-07-09 03:11:57 PM

Evil High Priest: Serious Post on Serious Thread: Evil High Priest: Has the character assassination, ignore the message, kill the messenger show moved along to Ellsberg now? Neato.

It's sad to see the Fark Moderates replacing the Fark Independents as the most boot lickinist farkers ever.

What is this
I don't even


I see it, there's a lot of farkers who would wouldn't think would like the idea of this kind of invasion of privacy based on their other political views but yet they cheerlead it and apologize like a republican covering for the Iraq debacle.
 
2013-07-09 03:13:47 PM

neversubmit: Interview with NSA expert James Bamford

Q: What do you make of Edward Snowden's actions?

A: With regard to the information he released on domestic surveillance, I consider him a whistleblower. He revealed details of massive violations by the NSA of the privacy rights of all Americans. The NSA has no constitutional right to secretly obtain the telephone records of every American citizen on a daily basis, subject them to sophisticated data mining and store them forever. It's time government officials are charged with criminal conduct, including lying to Congress, instead of going after those exposing the wrongdoing.


But did they ask him the important stuff? Like, why did Snowden go to Hong Kong? Or how hot, exactly, is his gf? We need more data for studying out purposes.
 
2013-07-09 03:16:40 PM

Headso: Evil High Priest: Serious Post on Serious Thread: Evil High Priest: Has the character assassination, ignore the message, kill the messenger show moved along to Ellsberg now? Neato.

It's sad to see the Fark Moderates replacing the Fark Independents as the most boot lickinist farkers ever.

What is this
I don't even

I see it, there's a lot of farkers who would wouldn't think would like the idea of this kind of invasion of privacy based on their other political views but yet they cheerlead it and apologize like a republican covering for the Iraq debacle.


Yeah, it's been interesting watching otherwise greenied farkers devolve into putrid orangeness..
 
2013-07-09 03:25:11 PM
Apparently, Snowden isn't the only party that should be given some slack due to his reasons for committing a crime.

The NSA, if it is acting criminally, might have various reasons as to why it is behaving illegally.  Here's a scenario.

A few years ago, some FBI agents were denied a search warrant by a federal judge. The agents had sought to search a computer of a Middle Eastern man who was in this country learning to fly commercial airliners.

His fellow terrorists were able to execute the plan that was contained on that computer, murdering several thousand Americans on live television.

The POTUS stood in the wreckage of WTC and told Americans and the rest of the world that we would hunt down the men who murdered those thousands of Americans. Thousands of young Americans saw the killings and heard the POTUS and volunteered for the job of hunting down OBL and killing him.

Those volunteers ended up on multiple 15 month combat tours in an oil war in Iraq. Undermanned, underarmored, under ridiculous ROEs, and under fire.

Trillions of dollars wasted, countless lives destroyed...

So, if the NSA is breaking the law to stop another attack so that another oil war won't be started (as in Iran), then maybe they should be given some slack. I'm not excusing illegal behavior but I understand if people who know from personal experience what Big Business can do to patriotic volunteers strive to keep the next generation from being used as corporate cannon fodder in war unrelated to a successful terror attack.

I'm just saying what's good for the Snowden is good for the NSA.
 
2013-07-09 04:08:09 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: I'm not excusing illegal behavior


Yes, you are.
 
2013-07-09 04:16:34 PM
You know, Noam Chomsky says, "Out of order comes chaos"
 
2013-07-09 04:38:37 PM

neversubmit: It's time government officials are charged with criminal conduct, including lying to Congress, instead of going after those exposing the wrongdoing.


I think the shiatty part about all this is that none of what the NSA is doing is actually illegal, and the FISA provisions they're operating under were actually granted by Congress.
 
2013-07-09 04:44:24 PM

Zerochance: neversubmit: It's time government officials are charged with criminal conduct, including lying to Congress, instead of going after those exposing the wrongdoing.

I think the shiatty part about all this is that none of what the NSA is doing is actually illegal, and the FISA provisions they're operating under were actually granted by Congress.


The part you left out

 The NSA has no constitutional right

Is the Constitution less than whatever the NSA is operating under?
 
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