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(Some Guy)   The talking points have been given: If You're a Progressive, You Have To Be Critical of the NSA   (inthesetimes.com) divider line 150
    More: Dumbass, NSA, Najibullah Zazi, for-profit college, President of Bolivia, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, Zazi, mass surveillance, Ari Fleischer  
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980 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Jul 2013 at 1:11 PM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-08 11:50:14 AM
So the lines have been drawn. I was expecting the Republicans to fall on the anti-NSA side because Obama. But I guess their authoritarian side is stronger than the anti-Obama
 
2013-07-08 12:07:42 PM
I don't know about "have to be," but EVERYONE should be.

But, enough of that, let's talk about that weasel Snowden and his hot girlfriend some more!!
 
2013-07-08 12:15:14 PM
If you're care about privacy at all and your right to it, you don't give a damn about what side you're on because you know that privacy shouldn't be given up because someone pisses themselves at the slightest hint of "omg bad men!!!"
 
2013-07-08 12:25:45 PM
If you're not critical of the NSA, then you're a blithering idiot.
 
2013-07-08 01:12:54 PM

Marcus Aurelius: If you're not critical of the NSA, then you're a blithering idiot.


In other words, a progressive
 
2013-07-08 01:13:32 PM
ok
 
2013-07-08 01:13:51 PM
I see no reason whatsoever for the left and right to disagree on the NSA and warrantless wiretapping.  People need to find some courage on both sides and resist the slide into a police state.
 
2013-07-08 01:13:57 PM
If You're a Progressive, You Have To _________

Anyone who writes sentence like this is a blithering idiot.
 
2013-07-08 01:14:53 PM
Um, liberals and progressives have been critical of the NSA for decades now.
 
2013-07-08 01:14:58 PM

Lionel Mandrake: I don't know about "have to be," but EVERYONE should be.

But, enough of that, let's talk about that weasel Snowden and his hot girlfriend some more!!


Dude, she's so f'in hot, dude! They could find some AMNESTY in my BEDROOM (Snowden not invited LOLOL KNOWWHATIMEAN, BRO?!?!?!)

/I'mincapableofbasichumaninteractionohGodpleasehelpme!
 
2013-07-08 01:16:00 PM

Fart_Machine: Um, liberals and progressives have been critical of the NSA for decades now.


Shhhhh, just let the Republican spin machine pump this out as something that has only happened under Obama...maybe some good will come out of it.
 
2013-07-08 01:16:24 PM
Weird, I would have thought conservatives would have been critical the NSA since they're all about limited government and personal freedom. Maybe this time we can all agree that the NSA has gotten a little too big for its britches
 
2013-07-08 01:21:33 PM
I'm shocked that the NSA apologists aren't threadshiatting here yet.

I'd revise the headline of the Op-Ed to: "If you have any conception on the principles upon which this country was founded, you have to should be critical of the NSA"
 
2013-07-08 01:23:22 PM
You know who else was critical of the NSA's poor handling of the whole Snowden mess...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN96ugY9YGM
 
2013-07-08 01:24:04 PM
If you're a progressive or liberal or conservative or communist or anarchist or libertarian or teabagger or space alien or anyone except the NSA, you should be critical of the NSA.
 
2013-07-08 01:28:24 PM
A lot of us were openly critical at the time when they were passing this shiat.

Unfortunately, I remember these same jack offs calling us unamerican traitors for voicing our concerns with the post 9/11 security state they were implementing
 
2013-07-08 01:28:26 PM

Smeggy Smurf: Marcus Aurelius: If you're not critical of the NSA, then you're a blithering idiot.

In other words, a progressive


It's cute that you want to base your entire world view around petty schoolyard partisanship, but wouldn't it be more productive to discuss whether you support the NSA's programs or not?
 
2013-07-08 01:29:25 PM

Fart_Machine: Um, liberals and progressives have been critical of the NSA for decades now.


I, too, seem to recall feelings of frustration and anger, even disappointment at finding out the level of NSA spying.  I don't know if that makes me a progressive or conservative, but I'm pretty sure it makes me an American (as opposed to a Murikin!)
 
2013-07-08 01:29:41 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: If you're a progressive or liberal or conservative or communist or anarchist or libertarian or teabagger or space alien or anyone except the NSA, you should be critical of the NSA.


Well, at least critical of the executive, judicial and Congress' oversight, guidance and support of the NSA.
 
2013-07-08 01:30:12 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: If you're a progressive or liberal or conservative or communist or anarchist or libertarian or teabagger or space alien or anyone except the NSA, you should be critical of the NSA.


Post Of The Hour, Day, Week, Month, Year and Epoch.  The NSA isn't interested in national security.  They're interested in ubiquity.
 
2013-07-08 01:38:29 PM

somedude210: If you're care about privacy at all and your right to it, you don't give a damn about what side you're on because you know that privacy shouldn't be given up because someone pisses themselves at the slightest hint of "omg bad men!!!"


Privacy wasn't "given up because someone pisses themselves at the slightest hint of 'omg bad men!!!'", it was given up because we value it less than the convenience of modern communication.

The NSA hasn't collected anything that we haven't freely handed over to businesses to do with what they please.
 
2013-07-08 01:42:45 PM

Marcus Aurelius: If you're not critical of the NSA, then you're a blithering idiot.


the NSA doesn't spy of its own volition.   On the contrary, people blaming the NSA for what their democratically elected representatives voted for are blithering idiots.

Or even the electorate as a whole, which is largely okay with the spying.
 
2013-07-08 01:44:41 PM
But don't worry, conservatives. Nobody will stick to a mission like you have with your orders of "troll every site you can under multiple accounts."
 
2013-07-08 01:46:25 PM

Fart_Machine: Um, liberals and progressives have been critical of the NSA for decades now.


Exactly.
 
2013-07-08 01:52:37 PM

Wendy's Chili: Privacy wasn't "given up because someone pisses themselves at the slightest hint of 'omg bad men!!!'", it was given up because we value it less than the convenience of modern communication.

The NSA hasn't collected anything that we haven't freely handed over to businesses to do with what they please.


that and we keep getting told that it's to "prevent another 9/11!!!!!" despite the fact that the odds of a terrorist attack happening again at such a grand scale is akin to getting shot while being hit by lightning twice in a summer thunderstorm in the middle of winter.
 
2013-07-08 01:52:41 PM

MooseUpNorth: Fart_Machine: Um, liberals and progressives have been critical of the NSA for decades now.

Exactly.


Actually, if you are a Progressive, you've been extremely critical of the NSA since the Patriot Act was passed 12 years ago. Welcome aboard Republicans... assuming you aren't just all hot air on the subject [and you know you are].
 
2013-07-08 01:54:24 PM
While TFA makes very cogent points, that I happen to agree with, your blog still sucks
 
2013-07-08 01:55:48 PM
Well, if inthesetimes.com says so...
 
2013-07-08 01:59:29 PM
Why should you be against NSA domestic spying?

Imagine that you're a researcher at a minor institution. You're working on something big, keeping it a secret until you apply for your patent. Now, imagine that Raytheon patents the exact thing you're working on. Wouldn't it be tempting to believe that the NSA had grabbed your phone calls and given the information to a preferred contractor to serve its own ends? Even if it isn't true, how would you know? How would you maintain a belief in the current power structures knowing that power is so consolidated with one group?

Imagine you're suing the government to prevent them from taking some action you find reprehensible. You are, within the course of one year, audited by the IRS, issued a citation for building code violations, and denied your disability claim in a manner that's inconsistent with previous rulings. Wouldn't it be tempting to believe that you've been placed on a shiat list somewhere in the government?

Imagine you're running for office against an incumbent, and you receive an anonymous phone call telling you that they have information that you slept with your secretary in 2005 and it would stay secret if you simply suspended your campaign and stepped aside. Wouldn't it be easy to assume that your opponent has access to information that you don't currently have? Wouldn't your supporters find it easy to believe that you've been targeted by this large cabal of highly informed spies?

Government consolidation of information power makes it impossible to have a rational democracy. It is a poison pill. Given that the government has at times abused every single power granted to it, how can this new power be somehow kept without it adding to the corruption in the government? Oh, sure, if you keep your head down, never stand out, never stand for anything, never run for office, never become interesting to anyone, you'll probably be safe- but how can you be sure you'll never become interesting to anyone who has power?
 
2013-07-08 02:01:20 PM

somedude210: Wendy's Chili: Privacy wasn't "given up because someone pisses themselves at the slightest hint of 'omg bad men!!!'", it was given up because we value it less than the convenience of modern communication.

The NSA hasn't collected anything that we haven't freely handed over to businesses to do with what they please.

that and we keep getting told that it's to "prevent another 9/11!!!!!" despite the fact that the odds of a terrorist attack happening again at such a grand scale is akin to getting shot while being hit by lightning twice in a summer thunderstorm in the middle of winter.


You're missing my point.

If you chose to live in a transparent house, you didn't lose your privacy when the mailman saw you naked; you lost it when you moved in.
 
2013-07-08 02:04:26 PM
I find it highly telling that the fright wing can't just state it is opposed to the NSA high jinks without it becoming "but the progressives aren't against it enough"

Its always a flopping out of the "I MA BETTER 'MERICUN THEN YOU IS" wang on the table. In stead of a "WE oppose this as fellow citizens" concerted effort.

Do you fancy the R on my jersery or are you evil and wear a D on yours traitor?

/yes feel free to substitute letters in that last sentence cause both sides ARE bad
 
2013-07-08 02:05:48 PM
Pardon me while I worry more about income inequality than NSA surveillance.
 
2013-07-08 02:06:58 PM

EyeballKid: But don't worry, conservatives. Nobody will stick to a mission like you have with your orders of "troll every site you can under multiple accounts."


Are you running short of tin foil?

I am a conservative and i am opposed to what the NSA has been doing. It is unconstitutional for them to collect the type and amount of data that they have on U.S. citizens. By the same token, Snowden committed a criminal act and the U.S. has every right to try to prosecute him.
 
2013-07-08 02:14:56 PM

EvilEgg: So the lines have been drawn. I was expecting the Republicans to fall on the anti-NSA side because Obama. But I guess their authoritarian side is stronger than the anti-Obama


Clearly you made it real far in TFA considering you missed the subheading:

When the government overreaches, the Left may indeed find common cause with some on the Right.
 
2013-07-08 02:16:34 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: If you're a progressive or liberal or conservative or communist or anarchist or libertarian or teabagger or space alien or anyone except the NSA, you should be critical of the NSA.


But I'm a socialist space alien who thinks this is a bunch of penny-ante hand-wringing about nothing by people who understand neither the Constitution nor police (you know, iLibertarians).
 
2013-07-08 02:16:54 PM

ChaoticLimbs: Why should you be against NSA domestic spying?

Imagine that you're a researcher at a minor institution. You're working on something big, keeping it a secret until you apply for your patent. Now, imagine that Raytheon patents the exact thing you're working on. Wouldn't it be tempting to believe that the NSA had grabbed your phone calls and given the information to a preferred contractor to serve its own ends? Even if it isn't true, how would you know? How would you maintain a belief in the current power structures knowing that power is so consolidated with one group?

Imagine you're suing the government to prevent them from taking some action you find reprehensible. You are, within the course of one year, audited by the IRS, issued a citation for building code violations, and denied your disability claim in a manner that's inconsistent with previous rulings. Wouldn't it be tempting to believe that you've been placed on a shiat list somewhere in the government?

Imagine you're running for office against an incumbent, and you receive an anonymous phone call telling you that they have information that you slept with your secretary in 2005 and it would stay secret if you simply suspended your campaign and stepped aside. Wouldn't it be easy to assume that your opponent has access to information that you don't currently have? Wouldn't your supporters find it easy to believe that you've been targeted by this large cabal of highly informed spies?

Government consolidation of information power makes it impossible to have a rational democracy. It is a poison pill. Given that the government has at times abused every single power granted to it, how can this new power be somehow kept without it adding to the corruption in the government? Oh, sure, if you keep your head down, never stand out, never stand for anything, never run for office, never become interesting to anyone, you'll probably be safe- but how can you be sure you'll never become interesting to anyone who has power?


This is a rather nice post. Well said.
 
2013-07-08 02:17:22 PM

Cowboy Spencer: Pardon me while I worry more about income inequality than NSA surveillance.


Everything's falling apart, and we are at the mercy of a monied ruling class,  but someone might be reading my emails (they're not, but I believe they are!)
 
2013-07-08 02:17:24 PM

Wendy's Chili: You're missing my point.

If you chose to live in a transparent house, you didn't lose your privacy when the mailman saw you naked; you lost it when you moved in.


no no, I get your point and I acknowledge that yes, the tech world has made privacy a thing of the past in many ways, but just because you're in your glass house naked, doesn't mean everyone outside absolutely must stare at you at all times
 
2013-07-08 02:18:07 PM

SpankMeJohnny: I am a conservative and i am opposed to what the NSA has been doing.


...as of 1/21/09, right?
 
2013-07-08 02:19:41 PM

Wendy's Chili: somedude210: If you're care about privacy at all and your right to it, you don't give a damn about what side you're on because you know that privacy shouldn't be given up because someone pisses themselves at the slightest hint of "omg bad men!!!"

Privacy wasn't "given up because someone pisses themselves at the slightest hint of 'omg bad men!!!'", it was given up because we value it less than the convenience of modern communication.

The NSA hasn't collected anything that we haven't freely handed over to businesses to do with what they please.


THIS

We've already sold ourselves to AT&T, Google, Comcast, Facebook, etc. in exchange for a couple of Groupons.  The government is getting all this from companies we've given permission to do whatever they want with "our" information.
 
2013-07-08 02:21:13 PM

Cowboy Spencer: Pardon me while I worry more about income inequality than NSA surveillance.


Shouldn't you be off in another thread then?
 
2013-07-08 02:21:57 PM

ArkPanda: Wendy's Chili: somedude210: If you're care about privacy at all and your right to it, you don't give a damn about what side you're on because you know that privacy shouldn't be given up because someone pisses themselves at the slightest hint of "omg bad men!!!"

Privacy wasn't "given up because someone pisses themselves at the slightest hint of 'omg bad men!!!'", it was given up because we value it less than the convenience of modern communication.

The NSA hasn't collected anything that we haven't freely handed over to businesses to do with what they please.

THIS

We've already sold ourselves to AT&T, Google, Comcast, Facebook, etc. in exchange for a couple of Groupons.  The government is getting all this from companies we've given permission to do whatever they want with "our" information.


But the free market has such oversight! It's only when that power is given to a democratically elected government that it's a problem.
 
2013-07-08 02:24:44 PM

AndreMA: Shouldn't you be off in another thread then?


No, because it would be nice to refocus on priorities on things that can actually destroy our country, instead of things that are just bad.
 
2013-07-08 02:29:30 PM

Wendy's Chili: somedude210: If you're care about privacy at all and your right to it, you don't give a damn about what side you're on because you know that privacy shouldn't be given up because someone pisses themselves at the slightest hint of "omg bad men!!!"

Privacy wasn't "given up because someone pisses themselves at the slightest hint of 'omg bad men!!!'", it was given up because we value it less than the convenience of modern communication.

The NSA hasn't collected anything that we haven't freely handed over to businesses to do with what they please.


So you'd be fine with the NSA intercepting, opening, recording and storing copies of all your mail?  Or is it only "modern communication" that has no presumption of privacy?  How modern?

Yeah, those durned millenials and what not, with their newfangled facebox are certainly pumping loads of personal information into the ether with no regard for their privacy.  But *private communication* is different.  A tweet isn't private.  A phone call is.  A blog post isn't private.  An email is.  An OPEN letter is open because it's... not private.  And a regular letter is private.  We "trust" (read: we have vehicles to hold them accountable) private and public entities to transfer our information without opening the letter and reading it.

Maybe your thank you letters don't seem incriminating.  What about a letter or correspondence between you and your lawyer?  Your accountant?

You give up on your own self interests way too easily.

Don't be dumb.
 
2013-07-08 02:36:21 PM

ChaoticLimbs: Why should you be against NSA domestic spying?

Imagine that you're a researcher at a minor institution. You're working on something big, keeping it a secret until you apply for your patent. Now, imagine that Raytheon patents the exact thing you're working on. Wouldn't it be tempting to believe that the NSA had grabbed your phone calls and given the information to a preferred contractor to serve its own ends? Even if it isn't true, how would you know? How would you maintain a belief in the current power structures knowing that power is so consolidated with one group?

Imagine you're suing the government to prevent them from taking some action you find reprehensible. You are, within the course of one year, audited by the IRS, issued a citation for building code violations, and denied your disability claim in a manner that's inconsistent with previous rulings. Wouldn't it be tempting to believe that you've been placed on a shiat list somewhere in the government?

Imagine you're running for office against an incumbent, and you receive an anonymous phone call telling you that they have information that you slept with your secretary in 2005 and it would stay secret if you simply suspended your campaign and stepped aside. Wouldn't it be easy to assume that your opponent has access to information that you don't currently have? Wouldn't your supporters find it easy to believe that you've been targeted by this large cabal of highly informed spies?

Government consolidation of information power makes it impossible to have a rational democracy. It is a poison pill. Given that the government has at times abused every single power granted to it, how can this new power be somehow kept without it adding to the corruption in the government? Oh, sure, if you keep your head down, never stand out, never stand for anything, never run for office, never become interesting to anyone, you'll probably be safe- but how can you be sure you'll never become interesting to anyone who has power?


Oh no!

We're all doomed if conspiracy theorists lose their faith in government!
 
2013-07-08 02:36:29 PM

dehehn: with some on the Right.


But only when a Dem is in the White House, of course. Republican President? It's to protect our freedoms, dontcha know.
 
2013-07-08 02:36:40 PM

somedude210: Wendy's Chili: You're missing my point.

If you chose to live in a transparent house, you didn't lose your privacy when the mailman saw you naked; you lost it when you moved in.

no no, I get your point and I acknowledge that yes, the tech world has made privacy a thing of the past in many ways, but just because you're in your glass house naked, doesn't mean everyone outside absolutely must stare at you at all times


Well then stop shouting "LOOK AT ME!  LOOK AT ME!  WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE LOOK AT ME!"

And cover up - we aren't interested.  Use encryption damn it.
 
2013-07-08 02:39:47 PM

Fart_Machine: Um, liberals and progressives have been critical of the NSA for decades now.


Indeed, though anyone thinking Snowden's actions will change anything really has the unreflective libertarian superhero they deserve in him, but the rest of us won't be getting the well-considered patriot and ponderous thinker we really need.
 
2013-07-08 02:43:14 PM

carpbrain: I see no reason whatsoever for the left and right to disagree on the NSA and warrantless wiretapping.  People need to find some courage on both sides and resist the slide into a police state.


If you'd bother being informed you'd know that Obama discontinued Bush's warrantless wiretapping. The issue now is how easy a lot of those warrants can be to get, and to the storage of (meta)data of third parties AND how proper it is that the government can subpoena etc. them. These aren't issues easily decided but are being drowned out by ignorant and misinformed derp... like that there is anything illegal about PRISM (which is perfectly legal but there are aspects of it I'd argue should not be).
 
2013-07-08 02:44:26 PM

Crotchrocket Slim: Fart_Machine: Um, liberals and progressives have been critical of the NSA for decades now.

Indeed, though anyone thinking Snowden's actions will change anything really has the unreflective libertarian superhero they deserve in him, but the rest of us won't be getting the well-considered patriot and ponderous thinker we really need.


WHERE'S RACHEL!?
 
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