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(WPTV)   Will the prosecution cry "Uncle" after GZ's uncle's testimony? Will the judge rule that the defense can't present a defense because it might cause the jury to decide "not guilty"? Will these Zimmerman trial threads ever end? Not today   (wptv.com) divider line 1158
    More: Followup, George Zimmerman, prosecutors, uncles, jury  
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5206 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jul 2013 at 9:36 AM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-08 10:16:56 AM
Thread is suffering some shrinkage already....
 
2013-07-08 10:17:30 AM

nekom: LasersHurt:
Neither way is good, if you ask me. And you didn't. But I told you anyway.

No outcome is good.  A couple of knuckleheads collided and a young man died.  It's not murder, but it is a sad situation for all involved.


This is about it.
 
2013-07-08 10:17:42 AM

ChaosStar: IdBeCrazyIf: Popcorn Johnny: The judge didn't grant the defense motion to throw out the case, so Zimmerman must be guilty. That's what Team Trayvon has been rolling with on Facebook and other sites. Never mind the fact that judges never grant a motion to dismiss after hearing half the case.

As much as I think the guy is guilty as hell of manslaughter, I did laugh when I saw that shiat.

It's like....yYou do realize people that this is standard operating procedure for defense teams right?

So you don't think he was defending himself?


Well, you see, people equate zimmerman getting out of his car with some guy starting a fight at a bar and losing.   Of course, there is no evidence at all that zimmerman started the confrontation, but that doesnt stop them.

They then backtrack and say, well maybe trayvon did, but who wouldnt.  If zimmerman was in his car, Trayvon wouldnt have been there to punch him in the face and get on top of him and wail away.

Trayvon had to do it, you know.. because what if he saw zimmermans gun, so the only logicial move is to run to him and get in a fistfight.
 
2013-07-08 10:17:46 AM

WillofJ2: Is there a person that does not get the rationale of having a bullet in the chamber?


There are plenty that are going to pretend not to, for the sake of their terrible arguments.
 
2013-07-08 10:17:46 AM

nekom: ChaosStar:
It's not a SYG "provision", this immunity to civil action is granted to anyone justifiably using the self defense statute.

So that's part of the general self defense statute and not specific to SYG?  I guess he'll be protected from litigation then.  Still what a mess.  This is a teachable moment here, don't go out looking for trouble, even if it's legal it's going to wreck your life.


Yes, this is part of the self defense law.
There is no "SYG" to be specific to, "stand" and "ground" are simply two words used to describe your lack of duty to retreat in the provision that removes said duty for anyone in a place they have a legal right to be.
 
2013-07-08 10:18:55 AM

ChaosStar: As soon as lethal force was used, or attempted to be used again GZ, he was within his rights as someone afraid for his life to use his ccw.
The concrete is a deadly weapon, and was used.
Reaching for GZ's gun was lethal force attempting to be utilized.

This completely nullifies not only a murder charge but a manslaughter or any other homicide charge.
Not my opinion, that's the law.


And this is why the prosecution called the ME who had never seen the injuries in person but only in photographs to testify. She kind of made her own testimony suspect when she was asked by the defense if a person bleeding from a broken and bleeding nose might swallow their own blood. She hemmed and hawed around that for a minute or two. Anyone who has ever had a bloody nose (not even broken) knows that you might swallow the blood just like everyone knows that having the sniffles means that your going to swallow some snot. There was absolutely no reason to say anything but yes to that question. I think that she didn't want to give the defense anything that she didn't know where it was going to lead up to ahead of time. In other words she was in the tank for the prosecution, which makes sense seeing as she is apparently a friend of the special prosecutor who decided that this case was going forward with Murder 2 no matter what, to the extent that she didn't convene a Grand Jury which is the normal thing to do.
 
2013-07-08 10:19:34 AM

Was it my imagination, or did the good doctor mention that Trayvon was able to fight a heart wound because of all the drugs in his system?


Wasn't that on the list of things they weren't supposed to bring up?



/how much weed does that even take?
/"trace ammounts" my arse.
 
2013-07-08 10:20:02 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: ChaosStar: See, you can't even answer the question without having to add things to it. That indicates deception.
Do you believe he defending himself, yes or no?

Because we are getting in legalese territory which always requires things being added. And I did answer the question, no he was not defending himself to the physical level the event elevated to.

Don't like the answer, go punch a lawyer in the face.

Mr. Eugenides: Would a reasonable person expect to be assaulted violently for walking in the same direction as someone else? If the answer to that is yes, then you live in a sad world and you can argue manslaughter. If the answer to that is no, then it's self-defense and not manslaughter.

Remember, the prosecution showed that Martin initiated the physical confrontation.

Would a reasonable person initiate contact with someone they felt threaten by who had been following them? Key point here is that Travon initiated contact because he reasonably felt threaten, contact escalated to where Zimmerman shot defending himself......HOWEVER

Had Zimmerman not initiated contact then the event would have never occurred, ergo he knowingly placed himself in that situation negligently and knowingly carrying an instrument that could result in death.

And yes, it could be argued that he was truly defending himself from what he thought was a life threatening situation, all I am arguing is that the prosecution were farking morons for attaching murder 2 to this when they could have almost assuredly slam dunked this as manslaughter.


I would say the reasonable response would have been to turn and ash "Why are you following me?"   Instead, he chose to assault Zimmerman and continued to assault him once Zimmerman was down.
 
2013-07-08 10:20:50 AM
How many times did we hear the word f*cking with the first witness?  I lost count
 
2013-07-08 10:21:58 AM

Popcorn Johnny: I don't think GZ is guilty of manslaughter, but it might not be a bad idea if he was convicted of it and sent to prison for a few years. It would send a strong message to people that you really want to do everything possible to avoid violent confrontations with people. If he walks, I guarantee you see a lot more of these kind of incidents in the future.


Your assumption is specious at best. Almost 2 years have past since Mr. Horner shot and killed 2 men robbing his next door neighbor in Pasadena, TX. That one didn't even go to trial even though the minority communties were up in arms. Both men were hispanic, both may have been "undocumented aliens".

No one has gone out of their way to replicate that day. Most people don't have an overwheling desire to kill someone. Personally, it seems like a real hassle, having to deal with the press and community activists.
 
2013-07-08 10:22:04 AM
Work obligations will keep me out of the thread for most of the morning and early afternoon.

I will, however, pop in from time to time with amusing material.

A reading of the script for "Murderous Racism: The George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin Story"

An amusing gif
 
2013-07-08 10:22:08 AM
"Well, Mr. Whipple, if one shot does the job, we don't usually shoot 50 times.  We aren't the LAPD."
 
2013-07-08 10:22:28 AM

limeyfellow: AeAe: nekom: LasersHurt:
Neither way is good, if you ask me. And you didn't. But I told you anyway.

No outcome is good.  A couple of knuckleheads collided and a young man died.  It's not murder, but it is a sad situation for all involved.

not murder.  manslaughter.

What I yet to see though is why stand your ground laws don't apply to Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman admitted to following the guy in a car for a number of blocks, then when he sees an appropiate time he jumps out and goes after the kid with no sort of announcement of intent, he enters the personal space of Trayvon Martin to confront himself. If Martin had been older and shot Zimmerman and survive the case would have been thrown out as self defense, especially with the phone calls that Zimmerman made that he is after the kid.

Isn't that what stand your ground laws are about. If you fear for your life you have the right to fight back with all weapons at your disposal?


Stand your ground could protect Martin if he were on trial for assault, manslaughter, murder, etc.  BHe'd have to prove it, but he's not on trial so it's completely irrelevant.  He'd very possibly lose on that.  Zimerman doesn't lose the right to self defense, especially when there's no compelling argument he started the physical altercation.  What you seem to be advocating is a situation where one person gets to declare "I stand my ground!" at the slightest provocation and then the other person is compelled to lie back and take a beating.
 
2013-07-08 10:22:31 AM
I dont get where the prosecution was going with the recross? wanted to say "double tap" on national tv?
 
2013-07-08 10:23:14 AM

ChaosStar: No, we're really not. There is no legalese.
So you don't think GZ had his head smacked into the concrete?


Perhaps, but then again he did follow Tray and put himself into that situation.

We'll never really know what touched it off, but one could reasonably argue that someone following you at night could be construed as threatening.
 
2013-07-08 10:23:16 AM
PCP, MUTHAFARKAS!!!
www.imfdb.org
 
2013-07-08 10:23:27 AM

way south: Was it my imagination, or did the good doctor mention that Trayvon was able to fight a heart wound because of all the drugs in his system?
Wasn't that on the list of things they weren't supposed to bring up?

/how much weed does that even take?
/"trace ammounts" my arse.


Did you hear the ruling the judge gave when Bao said his opinion changed on whether or not the amount of THC in Martin's system may have effected his behavior?

Even the CNN commentator said that would likely be reversible error.

This is a poor example of the administration of justice, and everybody is watching.
 
2013-07-08 10:24:10 AM

WillofJ2: I dont get where the prosecution was going with the recross? wanted to say "double tap" on national tv?


When you're about to get your ass handed to you in front of millions of people, you start to grasp at straws.
 
2013-07-08 10:24:37 AM

Nutsac_Jim: LasersHurt: "Will the jury likely acquit because he was the only survivor of stupid shiat?"

Because he is the only survivor and thus, tweaks his story, and other witnesses clarify that the dead guy was a bit of a racist.


His story wasn't tweaked much.

Maybe I'm just conditioned by civil trials, though, there the story told to the police, the EMTs, and to the jury often is mutually contradictory.
 
2013-07-08 10:24:48 AM

Pumpernickel bread: I would say the reasonable response would have been to turn and ash "Why are you following me?" Instead, he chose to assault Zimmerman and continued to assault him once Zimmerman was down.


He did do that, you can even hear it on the cell phone recording
 
2013-07-08 10:25:07 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: ChaosStar: No, we're really not. There is no legalese.
So you don't think GZ had his head smacked into the concrete?

Perhaps, but then again he did follow Tray and put himself into that situation.

We'll never really know what touched it off, but one could reasonably argue that someone following you at night could be construed as threatening.


You're purposely being obtuse, because your stance has nothing solid to stand on.
Following Martin doesn't justify lethal force, if the concrete was used, that's lethal force. What touched it off, if following is threatening, neither matter.
 
2013-07-08 10:25:10 AM

Elegy: An amusing gif


Why are they driving backwards in that?
 
2013-07-08 10:25:23 AM

jehovahs witness protection: Bauer: i hope that zimmerman gets the maximum sentence.

if he wasn't such a wannabe cop...this wouldn't have happened.

i blame florida, too.

what a bunch of maroons.

And the maximum sentence for being innocent is?


18 and life to go
 
2013-07-08 10:26:45 AM
Can the prosecution just stand up and say, ok for the next 10 or how ever many witnesses we accept they all are gonna say its Zimmermans voice on the tape? and get to some meat
 
2013-07-08 10:26:51 AM

s2s2s2: I want to hear "Well, if the targets at the range were pinning him down, it would be a lot easier to hit them. I'm not certain that being beaten by the target would make it easier or more difficult."


Some, not me of course, will pay extra for that...
 
2013-07-08 10:27:01 AM

jehovahs witness protection: And the maximum sentence for being innocent is?


Probably a lifetime of harassment.
 
2013-07-08 10:27:36 AM

ChaosStar: What people do not seem to be able to comprehend is nothing prior to the concrete being used and/or Martin reaching for the gun matters.
None of it. At all. Period.
Doesn't matter if GZ chased Martin calling him every racial slur in the book.
Doesn't matter if GZ threw the first punch or Martin did.

As soon as lethal force was used, or attempted to be used again GZ, he was within his rights as someone afraid for his life to use his ccw.
The concrete is a deadly weapon, and was used.
Reaching for GZ's gun was lethal force attempting to be utilized.

This completely nullifies not only a murder charge but a manslaughter or any other homicide charge.
Not my opinion, that's the law.


Somehow I doubt that if treyvon had killed zimmerman if zimmermans gun had misfired that you would be in all these threads rabidly attacking anyone saying treyvon was guilty.

What you also leave out is that it is up to the jury to decide whether one person's actions rise to a level justifying lethal force. You cannot simply say 'hurr I thought he'd kill me' and you definitely cannot expect the jury to ignore a little thing like how you were running around playing cop for fun in the first place.

And by the way, you have serious ignorance about what justifies lethal force. Nobody gets to go around punching people in the face and then murder the person who is too good at defending themselves. Is concrete lethal force? Sure.
Depending on the situation, so is the angry guy stalking you at night, being racist, and physically assaulting you. That is what this trial is about.

If I was out for a walk and you started beating me up, I would be justified in slipping a knife in you. You would not be justified in shooting me as I pulled it. I am under no obligation to presume you are only going to hurt me in a manner other than serious bodily harm, nor to trust that those couple mma matches I watched will let me fend you off.
 
2013-07-08 10:28:57 AM
So the only person to definitively say that it was Trayvon is his mom?
 
2013-07-08 10:29:04 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: He did do that, you can even hear it on the cell phone recording


No. No you can not. What we have is W#8 saying that's what she thought that she heard. There is no recording of that phone call (in evidence, (maybe go ask the NSA if they have a copy in their servers somewhere).
 
2013-07-08 10:29:11 AM

genepool lifeboat: jehovahs witness protection: And the maximum sentence for being innocent is?

Probably a lifetime of harassment.


Yeah, but probably a short lifetime.  If you really want to see race riots, just wait until they convict whoever kills him.
 
2013-07-08 10:29:22 AM

WillofJ2: Can the prosecution just stand up and say, ok for the next 10 or how ever many witnesses we accept they all are gonna say its Zimmermans voice on the tape? and get to some meat


Are they going to call Martin's dad to say he didn't think it was Trayvon until after he spoke to a lawyer?  That's better than 10 witnesses who are sympathetic to Zimmerman.
 
2013-07-08 10:29:33 AM

LasersHurt: nekom: LasersHurt: "Will the jury likely acquit because he was the only survivor of stupid shiat?"

That's probably what's going to happen in a nutshell.  UNLESS the jury lets emotions override the letter of the law.

Neither way is good, if you ask me. And you didn't. But I told you anyway.


Move to strike! Malicious accusery.
 
2013-07-08 10:30:11 AM

ChaosStar: You're purposely being obtuse, because your stance has nothing solid to stand on.
Following Martin doesn't justify lethal force, if the concrete was used, that's lethal force. What touched it off, if following is threatening, neither matter.


Yes because obviously just before the fight occurred Martin was thinking to himself "That concrete is going to kill this cracker ass fool"

Fights do and happen, but just because they escalate to specific levels does not absolve you of your responsibilities for being in that fight.
 
2013-07-08 10:30:45 AM

limeyfellow: AeAe: nekom: LasersHurt:
Neither way is good, if you ask me. And you didn't. But I told you anyway.

No outcome is good.  A couple of knuckleheads collided and a young man died.  It's not murder, but it is a sad situation for all involved.

not murder.  manslaughter.

What I yet to see though is why stand your ground laws don't apply to Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman admitted to following the guy in a car for a number of blocks, then when he sees an appropiate time he jumps out and goes after the kid with no sort of announcement of intent, he enters the personal space of Trayvon Martin to confront himself. If Martin had been older and shot Zimmerman and survive the case would have been thrown out as self defense, especially with the phone calls that Zimmerman made that he is after the kid.

Isn't that what stand your ground laws are about. If you fear for your life you have the right to fight back with all weapons at your disposal?


If Martin did what you just described, he would be on trial for for Murder-2 like Zimmerman or manslaughter. You cannot defend yourself from someone who is following, but not attacking, you.
 
2013-07-08 10:30:54 AM

Radioactive Ass: No. No you can not. What we have is W#8 saying that's what she thought that she heard. There is no recording of that phone call (in evidence, (maybe go ask the NSA if they have a copy in their servers somewhere).


"The prosecution calls Edward Snowden"
 
2013-07-08 10:31:04 AM
Smackledorfer

Depending on the situation, so is the angry guy stalking you at night, being racist, and physically assaulting you.

...but enough about Martin.

/ba-dum-chhh
 
2013-07-08 10:31:14 AM

The Muthaship: WillofJ2: Can the prosecution just stand up and say, ok for the next 10 or how ever many witnesses we accept they all are gonna say its Zimmermans voice on the tape? and get to some meat

Are they going to call Martin's dad to say he didn't think it was Trayvon until after he spoke to a lawyer?  That's better than 10 witnesses who are sympathetic to Zimmerman.


They just said he is on the depth chart for today, i dont think they would close with him because the prosecutor is gonna get him to say he changed his mind
 
2013-07-08 10:31:49 AM
They should get the woman that had the restraining order testify. She's heard Georgie scream in a pleading manner, I bet.
 
2013-07-08 10:31:49 AM

s2s2s2: So the only person to definitively say that it was Trayvon is his mom?


And she's obviously biased.  As is Zimmerman himself, of course.  Personally, I couldn't say who it is though common sense would at least SUGGEST that the person losing the fight would be the one screaming.
 
2013-07-08 10:32:33 AM
This seems like a weird line of questioning. "Why did you think he was out of work?"
 
2013-07-08 10:32:33 AM

TenaciousP: How come no questions about the content of his CHL class? In TX, they go over SYG in great detail. The instructor will also proudly tell you that you can kill a person for stealing your neighbor's TV. Yet we "value l


If your TX CHL instructor told you that, go find a new instructor immediately because the one you took your class from has put you in grave danger.

/TX CHL instructor.
 
2013-07-08 10:32:49 AM

Smackledorfer: You cannot simply say 'hurr I thought he'd kill me' and you definitely cannot expect the jury to ignore a little thing like how you were running around playing cop for fun in the first place.


The jury is going to be instructed to do exactly that.  It's irrelevant under Florida law.

Smackledorfer: Nobody gets to go around punching people in the face and then murder the person who is too good at defending themselves. Is concrete lethal force?


Under Florida law, you can do exactly that, so long as you're unable to escape and in fear of great bodily harm at the moment you pull the trigger.  Section 776.032, Florida Statutes.
 
2013-07-08 10:33:16 AM

s2s2s2: So the only person to definitively say that it was Trayvon is his mom?


No, the brother also said that, but at first (for at least 2 weeks) he was uncertain. Other than that there is the father who at first said definitively stated that it wasn't his son then later said that it was. There's a reason why the defense didn't call him to the stand.
 
2013-07-08 10:33:37 AM

WillofJ2: i dont think they would close with him because the prosecutor is gonna get him to say he changed his mind


You're probably right, but him changing his mind can actually be viewed as even more powerful for the defense.

Due to the circumstances.

/and the ensuing HOA settlement....
 
2013-07-08 10:34:20 AM
What is going to be very interesting is the number of TV's, sneakers, etc. that will be stolen due to rioting after Zimmerman is found 'Not Guilty'.
 
2013-07-08 10:34:23 AM

Radioactive Ass: There's a reason why the defense didn't call him to the stan


Prosecution dammit. The defense might call him to the stand but maybe not.
 
2013-07-08 10:34:49 AM

Radioactive Ass: s2s2s2: So the only person to definitively say that it was Trayvon is his mom?

No, the brother also said that, but at first (for at least 2 weeks) he was uncertain. Other than that there is the father who at first said definitively stated that it wasn't his son then later said that it was. There's a reason why the defense didn't call him to the stand.


There is also a reason why they asked about "being coached to say [who it was]."

The only good questions the Pros has asked are just as applicable to Sabrina.
 
2013-07-08 10:37:00 AM

Smackledorfer: ChaosStar: What people do not seem to be able to comprehend is nothing prior to the concrete being used and/or Martin reaching for the gun matters.
None of it. At all. Period.
Doesn't matter if GZ chased Martin calling him every racial slur in the book.
Doesn't matter if GZ threw the first punch or Martin did.

As soon as lethal force was used, or attempted to be used again GZ, he was within his rights as someone afraid for his life to use his ccw.
The concrete is a deadly weapon, and was used.
Reaching for GZ's gun was lethal force attempting to be utilized.

This completely nullifies not only a murder charge but a manslaughter or any other homicide charge.
Not my opinion, that's the law.

Somehow I doubt that if treyvon had killed zimmerman if zimmermans gun had misfired that you would be in all these threads rabidly attacking anyone saying treyvon was guilty.

What you also leave out is that it is up to the jury to decide whether one person's actions rise to a level justifying lethal force. You cannot simply say 'hurr I thought he'd kill me' and you definitely cannot expect the jury to ignore a little thing like how you were running around playing cop for fun in the first place.

And by the way, you have serious ignorance about what justifies lethal force. Nobody gets to go around punching people in the face and then murder the person who is too good at defending themselves. Is concrete lethal force? Sure.
Depending on the situation, so is the angry guy stalking you at night, being racist, and physically assaulting you. That is what this trial is about.

If I was out for a walk and you started beating me up, I would be justified in slipping a knife in you. You would not be justified in shooting me as I pulled it. I am under no obligation to presume you are only going to hurt me in a manner other than serious bodily harm, nor to trust that those couple mma matches I watched will let me fend you off.


Of course I wouldn't, because Martin would have killed GZ without lethal provocation. Martin escalated it to lethal force, so he has no legal standing to kill GZ when GZ attempts to protect himself.

No, it's really not up to the jury to decide if whether a person's actions justify lethal force in self defense. That's the job of the investigators.

So you say I'm ignorant about lethal force, then say that what I attest was lethal force was, in fact, lethal force..? Some angry guy following you (not stalking), being racist, and even physically assaulting you is not lethal force.

If you were out for a walk, and I started beating you up, you would not be justified in putting a knife in me unless you felt your life was in danger. If I'm punching you in the arm or shoulder, pushing you around, slapping you in the face, your life is not in danger. If I'm beating your head into the concrete, or punching you squarely in the face over and over, you have legitimate fear for your life.
 
2013-07-08 10:37:14 AM

ferretman: What is going to be very interesting is the number of TV's, sneakers, etc. that will be stolen due to rioting after Zimmerman is found 'Not Guilty'.




Hopefully they have Korean store owners. They know how to handle rioters
 
2013-07-08 10:39:16 AM
So did we go red? If we did, I like it - only the hardcore trial watchers will be left in the thread.

i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com

The best one, that fark won't let me post inline because 403 forbidden.
 
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