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(WPTV)   Will the prosecution cry "Uncle" after GZ's uncle's testimony? Will the judge rule that the defense can't present a defense because it might cause the jury to decide "not guilty"? Will these Zimmerman trial threads ever end? Not today   (wptv.com) divider line 1159
    More: Followup, George Zimmerman, prosecutors, uncles, jury  
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5206 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jul 2013 at 9:36 AM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-08 01:48:05 PM

Cletus C.: Boojum2k: siva: because it is readily apparent that Trayvon Martin wouldn't have died if Zimmerman had acted with a small bit of restraint and common decency.

He should totally have let Trayvon beat him to death, that would have been the decent thing to do.

You think if Zimmerman had left it with the cops after calling them, Martin then would have followed him to his home and beaten him to death as Georgie Boy was sitting down for his evening constitutional?


Well, the prosecution has shown the Martin pursued Zimmerman and then started beating him. Why doesn't Trayvon get called out for having no restraint or decency?
 
2013-07-08 01:48:33 PM

siva: I only saw about 20 minutes of testimony from the lead investigator being examined by the defense a few days ago, so I could be wroung.  However, it seemed very clear that the prosecution didn't have the kind of evidence to prove much of anything.

It's sad, because it is readily apparent that Trayvon Martin wouldn't have died if Zimmerman had acted with a small bit of restraint and common decency.  However, with respect to the law, I don't think being a POS is illegal.  So as it stands I can't see him being convicted, despite morally reprehensible behavior that cost a young man his life.  I just hope that if he walks, this follows Zimmerman around for the rest of his life.


I am curious what behavior Mr. Zimmerman engaged in that was "morally reprehensible".  Calling the police when he saw someone suspicious and reporting everything that happened as it happened?

I know a lot of people want to bank on "we don't need you to do that" as some kind of command, but tend to forget that earlier in the call, the dispatcher said "tell us if he does anything else" or something similar.  So, he actually FOLLOWED that instructions of the police.  He gave descriptions of the actions of the youth (admittedly there could have been more of them, but there always can).  He broke off when he was told to break off.  From Trayvon's friend's testamony, we find that he confronted Zimmerman.  The evidence largely points to Zimmerman being struck first, repeatedly, and struggling to defend himself.  When he was struck multiple times about the head (with fist and then his head impacting concrete), he was able to get his weapon and discharge a single shot that killed Trayvon.

What part was Morally Reprehensible about his actions?  The outcome was TRAGIC, but providing that his actions actually conformed to what the evidence shows, what did he do that was reprehensible?
 
2013-07-08 01:49:18 PM

s2s2s2: Why can't we hear what Martin's dad originally said upon hearing the call?


Heresay.  That's probably why they're putting Serino on the stand next, to get it straight from him.
 
2013-07-08 01:49:48 PM

Radioactive Ass: Facetious_Speciest: AngryDragon

So does the Census Bureau as of 2020

The Census Bureau is a silly place, and they say silly things. Bill Clinton and Osama bin Laden (to pick two examples) are of the same "race" under their categorisation.

If Bin Laden had been an Afghanistani then yes he would have been considered the same race however he was Arab (having his roots in Saudi Arabia). Most, if not all, of the members of the Taliban in Afghanistan for example would be considered Caucasian which is generally considered white.


Arabs are considered Caucasian/white too.
 
2013-07-08 01:50:00 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Cletus C.: Boojum2k: siva: because it is readily apparent that Trayvon Martin wouldn't have died if Zimmerman had acted with a small bit of restraint and common decency.

He should totally have let Trayvon beat him to death, that would have been the decent thing to do.

You think if Zimmerman had left it with the cops after calling them, Martin then would have followed him to his home and beaten him to death as Georgie Boy was sitting down for his evening constitutional?

I like how Zimmerman is the one who "acted without restraint", not the guy who attacked him for no reason.


Exactly.  Following and reporting to police is outrageous but ambushing someone and beating their head against a concrete sidewalk is rational.  Do these people really think like this?
 
2013-07-08 01:50:03 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: This text is now purple: nekom: Poverty, the destruction of the black family, racism, there are a ton of reasons for the situation, and in many ways we're STILL seeing the results of slavery turned into an underclass.

I get the first two, but what do racism and slavery have to do with black-on-black violence?

No one has time to re-explain the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, Jim Crow, and segregation to you. I'm sure there's a 5th grade summer school course going on somewhere right now that may be able to help you.


Maybe it's because I don't automatically assume that any form of discrimination or violence is "racism."

But I'm struggling to see how intraracial violence is caused by racism. Even if you want to argue about Uncle Toms or alleged race traitors, the fundamental argument is rarely racial in origin (the argument you're looking for is poverty).

But when all you have is racism, you might as well pound the table.
 
2013-07-08 01:50:41 PM

TaskMan: What part was Morally Reprehensible about his actions?


FACT: It was George Zimmerman who put Baby in the corner.
 
2013-07-08 01:50:55 PM
Radioactive Ass

If Bin Laden had been an Afghanistani then yes he would have been considered the same race however he was Arab (having his roots in Saudi Arabia).

Regardless, Arabs are "white" according to the Census Bureau.

Most, if not all, of the members of the Taliban in Afghanistan for example would be considered Caucasian which is generally considered white.

"Caucasian" is a silly term based on Biblical pseudo-science when used in the American sense. Seriously. In most of the world, it's more accurately used to refer to actual Caucasians (i.e., people from the Caucasus region).
 
2013-07-08 01:51:08 PM

ChaosStar: Yes, that's brandishing, but that doesn't give Martin fear of lethal force.
GZ would actually have to make to draw the weapon or draw the weapon, before TM could use the self defense claim of preemptive striking.
Self defense goes out the window during commission of a felony unless you are protecting your own life from unwarranted lethal force and have made every reasonable means to escape unless you're in a place where you have a right to be.
Credit card fraud is a felony, but you don't have to allow someone to shoot you over it for instance.


Hold on...so if someone approaches me and flashes his/her gun, that doesn't give me fear of lethal force?  I guess I'm a giant candy-ass, because I would fear for my life in that situation, and if I felt I had a better chance to disarm him than run faster than his bullet, I would try.

I am not saying this happened in this case.  I'm just trying to understand the law.
 
2013-07-08 01:51:19 PM
Magorn: ...If a 17 year old redneck posed with his favorite shotguns, you'd think he was a good ol' boy standing up for the second Amendment, not a "gang-banger wanna be..."

FAIL.

Look up "Justin Hall" in the Augusta, GA area on facebook. He is a local thug on trial for trying to burn down his ex-girlfriend's house for breaking up with him. Link from a local radio personality's radio show's facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151579200473280&set=a.2418 00 248279.137388.75430353279&type=1&theater

Much as the people who want to convict Zimmerman on color want it to not be the case, "thugs" come in all colors and sizes.
 
2013-07-08 01:51:35 PM

lantawa: daRog: lantawa: I have decreed that there shall be no race riots, and so shall it be.....

You might want to change the grammar on that statement, hoss.

It shall be that what I have decreed shall come to pass?  Peace shall reign in the valley?  My ass, you say?


Or a basic "Y'all better just STFU and GBTW" would have been acceptable.
 
2013-07-08 01:52:20 PM

TheSup3rN0va: s2s2s2: Why can't we hear what Martin's dad originally said upon hearing the call?

because that would hurt the prosecution's case


www.blogcdn.com
 
2013-07-08 01:54:11 PM
Maybe it's just me, but Serino reminds me a lot of Christopher Meloni.
 
2013-07-08 01:55:24 PM

redmid17: Arabs are considered Caucasian/white too.


Huh. I could have sworn that the last census form that I filled out had Arab\Middle Eastern as a choice but I may be wrong.
 
2013-07-08 01:56:33 PM
Serino's back on?  Anyone want to give a periodic account of how it's going?  No video feed at work.

This should be good.
 
2013-07-08 01:56:35 PM
Radioactive Ass

Huh. I could have sworn that the last census form that I filled out had Arab\Middle Eastern as a choice but I may be wrong.

If you put down "Arab" or "Middle Eastern," you're tallied as "white."
 
2013-07-08 01:56:40 PM
Court girls.

i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-08 01:56:53 PM

Nytfall: I'm going to have to disagree. A black killing a mexican with a solid self defense claim? Probably never even get to trial.


seriable.com
 
2013-07-08 01:56:56 PM

Southern100: Maybe it's just me, but Serino reminds me a lot of Christopher Meloni.


Reminds me of tom sizemore in some of his cop movies
 
2013-07-08 01:57:03 PM
(This comment has been removed)
 
2013-07-08 01:57:05 PM

Radioactive Ass: Facetious_Speciest: AngryDragon

So does the Census Bureau as of 2020

The Census Bureau is a silly place, and they say silly things. Bill Clinton and Osama bin Laden (to pick two examples) are of the same "race" under their categorisation.

If Bin Laden had been an Afghanistani then yes he would have been considered the same race however he was Arab (having his roots in Saudi Arabia). Most, if not all, of the members of the Taliban in Afghanistan for example would be considered Caucasian which is generally considered white.


I actually did some ennumerator work for the 2010 census and, basically, the census bureau will accept any answer you choose. Every Arab, Latino and Persian family that I interviewed claimed "White."
 
2013-07-08 01:58:43 PM

Cletus C.: Boojum2k: siva: because it is readily apparent that Trayvon Martin wouldn't have died if Zimmerman had acted with a small bit of restraint and common decency.

He should totally have let Trayvon beat him to death, that would have been the decent thing to do.

You think if Zimmerman had left it with the cops after calling them, Martin then would have followed him to his home and beaten him to death as Georgie Boy was sitting down for his evening constitutional?


Zimmerman would never had made it back to his truck.....when dispatch suggests not to follow, George complies, Trayvon went as far as his home and then doubled back and confronted Zimmerman before Zimmerman reached his vehicle..

So what you suggest, happened.
 
2013-07-08 01:58:51 PM

Facetious_Speciest: Magorn

TP, I'mma lay it on the line, You seem like a decent person by and large, if a reflexively conservative one poltically. but on this subject your views are colored by bias. You, and a half a dozen of the most vocal Zimmerman defenders on this thread are, whether you realize it or not, stone cold racists, and your worldview is so warped you don't even realize it.

Dude, this goes both ways. I've never talked about Martin's pictures of guns, called him a thug, or mentioned his drug-use save to assert it doesn't mean anything. And there have been people telling me that literally the only reason I think Zimmerman should walk is because I "secretly want to kill black people."

It's that crazy. And it's spinning from every angle.


and that's a fair point, there are those exploiting race on both sides of the argument, but I do find it more prevalent among Zimmerman;s defenders, and it seems almost intrinsic to the narrative that bit by bit has taken hold among and increasing number of them them that somehow MARTIN started the fight, that he was the agressor who "jumped Zimmerman" who was walking back to his car (something even Zimmerman never claimed at first) etc etc
 
2013-07-08 01:59:14 PM
Serino looks farking THRILLED to be back
 
2013-07-08 01:59:51 PM

Elegy: Court girls.

[i.imgur.com image 198x212]

[i.imgur.com image 300x218]

[i.imgur.com image 300x175]

[i.imgur.com image 300x220]


Blonde's got an ass like a couple of coconut shells, too.  Saw her in a going-away shot.
 
2013-07-08 01:59:52 PM
Serino testimony incoming!

Watch the defense get  yet another fatal blow.
 
2013-07-08 02:00:42 PM

Facetious_Speciest: If you put down "Arab" or "Middle Eastern," you're tallied as "white."


Ok. I'll take your word for that. It's not really germane to the trial anyway.
 
2013-07-08 02:00:43 PM
Jaffa calling

The original image from in trial:
i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-08 02:01:04 PM

TheSup3rN0va: Have you really completely ruled out the possibility that Trayvon Martin was acting out the "Thug Lyfe" stereotype by trying to teach this "crazy ass cracka" a lesson? If the "script was flipped", as it were, and black gentleman Jeron Brown had shot white, wannabe thug Brayden Martin after Martin had attacked Brown either out of (a) extreme racism or (b) trying to prove he was a tough guy, I'd be advocating the innocence of Brown as well as pointing out that Braypack was a bad example instead of voraciously defending him because he's white.

I know I'm crazy for thinking you might actually be an intelligent individual who is truly concerned about the racial inequalities in our society instead of a perpetrator of racist hyperbole and "the white man be keepin' us down" nonsense.



I'll start by letting you know that your opinion of me isn't important so save yourself some time. I think that it is possible that Trayvon Martin was angry that he was being followed. I totally disagree with your idiotic, racist characterization of his anger. If YOU get angry about something are you channeling Tony Soprano or Lucky Luciano? Why isn't your anger considered being "gangster"? You can also save your hypotheticals. I don't know what you would do if the situation were different and I have no reason to believe your assertion.
 
2013-07-08 02:01:48 PM
creepy ass-cracka:
I actually did some ennumerator work for the 2010 census and, basically, the census bureau will accept any answer you choose. Every Arab, Latino and Persian family that I interviewed claimed "White."

They're all pretty generic terms.  Skin coloration can vary a lot.  I've seen Native Americans with skin so dark you'd swear they were Africans, and others as white as I am.  I've seen Indian and Pakistani people in the same range.

My guess is that Americans tend to use the term white because most European immigrants mixed with others.  Myself, for example, it's a lot easier to say I'm white than to say I'm Welsh, Irish, Scottish, English, French and German.
 
2013-07-08 02:03:51 PM
Magorn

and that's a fair point, there are those exploiting race on both sides of the argument, but I do find it more prevalent among Zimmerman;s defenders...

I won't question your subjective impression, but might assert that this may appear so because (in my impression) there are a lot more "Zimmerman defenders" than "Martin defenders" these days. If we were to assume there are a roughly equal percentage of racist asshats on both "sides," you'd see more on the "pro-Zimmerman" side mainly because the most ardent "Martin supporters" seem to have largely disappeared from these threads since the trial started.

But I could be completely wrong.

/shrug
 
2013-07-08 02:04:14 PM

Elegy: Jaffa calling

The original image from in trial:
[i.imgur.com image 300x123]

[i.imgur.com image 300x245]

[i.imgur.com image 300x387]


KREE!
 
2013-07-08 02:04:18 PM
Cool, they got exception to hearsay.
 
2013-07-08 02:04:34 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Cletus C.: Boojum2k: siva: because it is readily apparent that Trayvon Martin wouldn't have died if Zimmerman had acted with a small bit of restraint and common decency.

He should totally have let Trayvon beat him to death, that would have been the decent thing to do.

You think if Zimmerman had left it with the cops after calling them, Martin then would have followed him to his home and beaten him to death as Georgie Boy was sitting down for his evening constitutional?

I like how Zimmerman is the one who "acted without restraint", not the guy who attacked him for no reason.


No reason that he can give anyway.
 
2013-07-08 02:04:53 PM
Can the prosecutor call his father later to argue his change of opinion?
 
2013-07-08 02:05:15 PM

Radioactive Ass: redmid17: Arabs are considered Caucasian/white too.

Huh. I could have sworn that the last census form that I filled out had Arab\Middle Eastern as a choice but I may be wrong.


You might have written it down in the "other race here" section, but it wasn't a standard option to check. I remember because my best friend was biatching about never knowing which box to check -- he is half Saudi -- so I told him to check white. He was only partially amused.

i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-08 02:05:32 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: TheSup3rN0va: Have you really completely ruled out the possibility that Trayvon Martin was acting out the "Thug Lyfe" stereotype by trying to teach this "crazy ass cracka" a lesson? If the "script was flipped", as it were, and black gentleman Jeron Brown had shot white, wannabe thug Brayden Martin after Martin had attacked Brown either out of (a) extreme racism or (b) trying to prove he was a tough guy, I'd be advocating the innocence of Brown as well as pointing out that Braypack was a bad example instead of voraciously defending him because he's white.

I know I'm crazy for thinking you might actually be an intelligent individual who is truly concerned about the racial inequalities in our society instead of a perpetrator of racist hyperbole and "the white man be keepin' us down" nonsense.


I'll start by letting you know that your opinion of me isn't important so save yourself some time. I think that it is possible that Trayvon Martin was angry that he was being followed. I totally disagree with your idiotic, racist characterization of his anger. If YOU get angry about something are you channeling Tony Soprano or Lucky Luciano? Why isn't your anger considered being "gangster"? You can also save your hypotheticals. I don't know what you would do if the situation were different and I have no reason to believe your assertion.


That, in and of itself, is an answer; not the one I was hoping for, but, unfortunately, the one I expected.
 
2013-07-08 02:05:59 PM
I'm watching HLN and they just had a shot of Tracie Martin and there's a woman directly behind him with blonde hair that's kinda mussed up whose face is completely blocked by Martins and I did a double take because for a second there it looked like he was wearing a blonde wig.
 
2013-07-08 02:06:39 PM

Magorn: it seems almost intrinsic to the narrative


Racism was intrinsic to the initial narrative.  NBC saw to it.  They fanned the flames by editing the tape, and ran with the racist angle.  Their motives were transparent and despicable.
 
2013-07-08 02:06:46 PM

omeganuepsilon: Cool, they got exception to hearsay.


Not watching right now, Sereno's testimony about Tracy Martin is coming in?
 
2013-07-08 02:07:00 PM

nekom: creepy ass-cracka:
I actually did some ennumerator work for the 2010 census and, basically, the census bureau will accept any answer you choose. Every Arab, Latino and Persian family that I interviewed claimed "White."

They're all pretty generic terms.  Skin coloration can vary a lot.  I've seen Native Americans with skin so dark you'd swear they were Africans, and others as white as I am.  I've seen Indian and Pakistani people in the same range.

My guess is that Americans tend to use the term white because most European immigrants mixed with others.  Myself, for example, it's a lot easier to say I'm white than to say I'm Welsh, Irish, Scottish, English, French and German.


We don't want the Irish!
 
2013-07-08 02:08:20 PM

Millennium: IdBeCrazyIf: On technicality a fist is a lethal object

This actually was the law in parts of France, a few centuries ago. In response, people developed the fighting style that later came to be called savate, which specializes in kicks, open-handed slaps, and other means of dancing around the "a fist is a deadly weapon" rule.


static.giantbomb.com

Approves.
 
2013-07-08 02:09:01 PM
'hearing that his son is dead - in heaven hopefully'


Yeah, judgement is G-d's alone, but based on the Tanach, fairly sure He doesn't approve of attempting murder, while killing in self-defense is absolutely allowed.
 
2013-07-08 02:09:02 PM
Elegy

Not watching right now, Sereno's testimony about Tracy Martin is coming in?

Yep.
 
2013-07-08 02:09:22 PM

The Muthaship: justtray: Take it away Phinn.

I was honored that the nuisance chose my post to vent his spleen (and ignorance).


Will an actual definition honor you as well?

An affirmative defense exonerates a defendant of a criminal charge. Even if the defendant could otherwise be found guilty, a successful affirmative defense results in an acquittal. Among the most familiar affirmative defenses are "insanity" and "self-defense."

Because affirmative defenses require the consideration of facts and arguments beyond those asserted by the prosecution, the defendant generally has to prove the defense. The burden of proof is typically lower than beyond a reasonable doubt. It can either be "clear and convincing evidence" or "preponderance of the evidence".


 How about Wiki?

An  affirmative defense is a complete or partial defense to a or that affirms the complaint or charges but raises facts other than those alleged by the plaintiff or prosecutor which, if proven by the defendant, would defeat or reduce a claim even if the allegations alleged are all proven.

Heck, even the State's Attorney in the case in question says so!

Florida State Attorney Angela Corey announced on Thursday that George Zimmerman had been arrested and would be  In response, she explained that the law provides Zimmerman with an "affirmative defense," and that if it was raised, it would be dealt with in court. She further vowed to fight the "affirmative defense."

It is truly blissful to in such "ignorant" company.
 
2013-07-08 02:09:52 PM

Elegy: omeganuepsilon: Cool, they got exception to hearsay.

Not watching right now, Sereno's testimony about Tracy Martin is coming in?


Yup, Sereno got to testify that Tracy said it wasn't his son's voice.

On cross now, prosecution is pursuing emotional trauma for Tracy, and ergo not meaning/knowing or in denial, etc.
 
2013-07-08 02:09:54 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: You... you know that's not a population map... Right?


You ... you know you have to drive for 4-8 hours to get to the "not Deep South" parts of FL, right?

lantawa: Why would you say this even after you saw how it worked out for the movie character who chose to say it? I mean, it sounds real tough and all, but it sorta puts a kabosh on you before you even get started.


I just like the line.
 
2013-07-08 02:09:57 PM
The prosecution keeps trying sway with emotion. It's all they got. Even though it has nothing to do with GZ's culpability.
 
2013-07-08 02:10:23 PM
Emotion can lead to not recognizing, but it can never lead to falsely recognizing!
 
2013-07-08 02:10:28 PM

redmid17: You might have written it down in the "other race here" section, but it wasn't a standard option to check. I remember because my best friend was biatching about never knowing which box to check -- he is half Saudi -- so I told him to check white. He was only partially amused.


Ok, I was mistaken. Memory can be a funny thing. I may have simply wondered why that wasn't an option seeing as I have some Persian in me (but only a quarter) while the rest is all British Isles based (all three of them) so I picked white anyway (my BC says Caucasian so it's moot anyway).
 
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