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(WPTV)   Will the prosecution cry "Uncle" after GZ's uncle's testimony? Will the judge rule that the defense can't present a defense because it might cause the jury to decide "not guilty"? Will these Zimmerman trial threads ever end? Not today   (wptv.com) divider line 1158
    More: Followup, George Zimmerman, prosecutors, uncles, jury  
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5208 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jul 2013 at 9:36 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-08 12:57:39 PM

give me doughnuts: The Muthaship: I listened to the testimony on satellite radio as I drove to Chicago Friday.  Jesus, Dr, Bao is a moron!


He's a doctor?

I wondered what he had been doing since "Joanie Loves Chachi" got cancelled.


Bob Loblaw.
 
2013-07-08 12:57:54 PM

Xenomech: The cognitive dissonance in these Zimmerman threads is astounding.

If Zimmerman didn't want to be put into a position where he'd have to use deadly force to protect himself from an attack, then he shouldn't have been investigating a suspicious person in his neighborhood while armed.  And if a woman didn't want to be put into a position where she'd be raped, then she should not be walking around sketchy areas while wearing skimpy clothing.  Right?


Wrong, there is a slight difference: with your skimpy dress, you would also have to carry a big sign saying $20/night. And after you get your $20, file for rape.
 
2013-07-08 12:58:01 PM

nekom: HAMMERTOE: Boojum2k: Wrong. If hypothetical "white kid" had beaten the black guy into the concrete, and was shot in self-defense, you'd find pretty much the same people here defending him for it.

This.

Yep.  If some white punk (and make no mistake, all races contain punks) attacked a black man under identical circumstances, I would say the very same.  Unfortunate that the kid is dead, but NOT murder.


Exactly.

I don't care what color the participants are, if the one getting his head beaten into the concrete by the one straddling his chest shoots the attacker, that's self defense.
 
2013-07-08 12:59:04 PM
Slight threadjack. Why does fark delete posts that reference posts that get deleted? It's happened a lot to me today.
 
2013-07-08 12:59:38 PM

Mr.BobDobalita: After the prosecution has rested its case and all their evidence is out in the open, I think it's pretty obvious to see that they did not meet the legal standard for proving that it was not self defense beyond a reasonable doubt.


Not much to say after that.


Well, I agree. But I'd also like to add that, because this Martin guy could not talk, they had an uphill battle to begin with.
 
2013-07-08 12:59:38 PM
sad times less hot cnn anchor
 
2013-07-08 12:59:39 PM

Radioactive Ass: Scerpes: There was no indictment.

"No person shall be held to answer for a  capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia when in actual service in time of War or public danger".

So says the 5th amendment. There are exceptions in some jurisdictions where instead of using a Grand Jury the same evidence that one would show to the Grand Jury can be shown to a judge instead to make a determination on whether the evidence is good enough to show that a jury may convict no matter by how slim of a margin it might be. Hence the old saying that a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich as the evidence bar is set very low at that point.

An indictment must always be signed off on by a judge although if a Grand Jury has signed off on it is simply signed as a matter of dotting the i's and crossing the t's in a legal sense. The judge isn't going to bother looking at the evidence.


They couldn't pursue 1st degree murder without an indictment in Florida.  They can and have gone for 2nd degree murder.
 
drp
2013-07-08 01:00:05 PM

OnlyM3: Defense lawyers = Private practice
Prosecutors = government jobs

Obviously the more skilled individuals will be in private practice.

/// can't wait till all medical jobs are government jobs.


Can't really compare the two.

Law school admission is not competitive at all, except at the big names.  You can get a law degree from a strip-mall diploma mill, and if you pass the bar, you're a lawyer.  Lawyers are VASTLY overproduced and the job market is extraordinarily tight.  There are huge numbers of terrible lawyers out there ... many so bad they don't even practice law because they're unemployable.

Medical school is very competitive at even the lowest ranked schools.  Doctors are constantly underproduced, to the point that people are seriously talking about expanding the scope of practice for midlevel nurses, just to make up the shortfall.  US doctors who work for the government (including the military) mostly have those specific jobs because one or another government program paid their medical school tuition.

Where you find the worst doctors is in private practice in poor rural areas where
- high earners don't want to live
- patients can't afford to choose their doctors
- there are so few doctors that there's no choosing to be done anyway

Direct gov-employed doctors have a reputation for being quacks, but that's mostly incorrect and a result of misunderstanding how doctors get those jobs.


No, the risk you're about to collide with when government fully takes over health care is that the government, or its delegated insurance bean-counter clown middlemen, will tell you that you don't get to see doctor, and that the nurse practitioner with a few extra months of OJT and some online classes is just as good as a doctor.
 
2013-07-08 01:01:12 PM

ELKAY: jaybeezey: ELKAY: I really hope GZ doesn't get off. The last thing we need in this country is a bunch of a$$hole vigilante's thinking they now have a hunting license for black teenagers.

He clearly did not act as a reasonable or responsible person that night and deserves a manslaughter charge.

Right? Because it's such a prevalent attitude now. I'd hate for it to get bolstered.

Most everyone i know is just chomping at the bit to have his/her life turned inside out on national TV so they can smoke some kid.

Don't live in fear and hate and everything will be OK.

Would you feels safe if George Zimmerman lived in your neighborhood?

Would you feel safe if a George Zimmerman wannabe lived in your neighborhood?

I wouldn't. I think this man with past assault charges and domestic violence charges who has now killed a teenager under questionable circumstances should not be allowed to own a fire arm.

He clearly acted with reckless disregard for human life, he is a proven liar, his story from that night does not add up, and while there is not enough evidence for murder I think manslaughter is a slam dunk. I hope the jury has that option.


1. I wouldn't feel unsafe.
2. I wouldn't feel unsafe.
3. Domestic violence charges were debunked a long time ago, and were cleared up in this case by his lawyer
4. How did Zimmerman act with reckless disregard for human life? That's what Trayvon Martin did when he assaulted Zimmerman for no reason. Zimmerman's story not only adds up perfectly, but is currently supported by all available evidence and witnesses. Not only is there absolutely no chance at a murder conviction, manslaughter is totally off the table as well because self defense is an absolute legal defense.

I feel bad that you're so woefully misinformed.
 
2013-07-08 01:01:47 PM

Deucednuisance: ChaosStar: To be fair, he really doesn't have to prove he's innocent with an affirmative defense, just show evidence that the self defense was justified. Reasonable doubt can still exist.

Actually, Counselor, that's exactly backwards. "Affirmative defense" means "defense that has to be proven". Not just "justified", but "that it occurred".

And reasonable doubt pertains to doubt about guilt, not defenses.

Don't quit your day job.



Go read the Montijo v. State case.  It's at 61 So. 3d 424 (Fla. 5th DCA 2011).

Reasonable doubt pertains to a claim of self-defense, too.

A defendant claiming self-defense only needs to be able to point to some evidence that justifies his assertion of the defense.  That evidence can come from anywhere -- the defendant's evidence (if he elects to present any), cross-examination of the state's witnesses, or even the inherent nature of the state's allegations.

A self-defense claimant is not required to prove anything. He merely needs to make a plausible, legitimate assertion of self-defense.

The State is required to disprove the self-defense claim, and do so beyond a reasonable doubt.

We'll be accepting your apologies any time you're ready to give them.
 
2013-07-08 01:01:48 PM

Phinn: TheWhoppah: Nabb1: Yes, but it was warranted here. This judge has been brazenly pro-prosecution from the jump, so Zimmerman's lawyers are just creating a record for appeal if the jury flakes out and convicts because they are afraid of the lynch mob surrounding this whole thing.


Granting this particular defense motion is only warranted when the prosecution does not put on any evidence that the defendant committed a crime.  How anyone feels about the quality of that evidence is irrelevant.  All judges everywhere are pro-prosecution.  We are so jaded to pro-prosecution judges that those with only a slight preference for the state are deemed "defense friendly" and those that somehow manage to be actually neutral are viewed a radically pro-criminal and replaced at the next election.

That's not true.  The defense motion for judgment of acquittal should have been granted, because the prosecution's evidence, even if taken as 100% true, did not rule out the reasonable hypothesis that GZ acted in an innocent manner.  The State's evidence, even if all of it is to be believed, failed to eliminate all of the scenarios whereby GZ is not guilty, leaving a guilty hypothesis as the only one.

That's the standard when the evidence is circumstantial.

No reasonable juror could conclude that GZ is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.  With this evidence, if believed, a juror could reasonably conclude he's probably guilty, but probably doesn't cut it.



You clearly can't divorce the proffered evidence from your feelings about said evidence.  Its like you can't even SEE that any evidence was presented that contradicts your opinion.
No offense, but you would make alousy judge.
 
2013-07-08 01:01:52 PM
apparently people in egypt attack the military with fireworks and laser pointers and find out bullets trump those toys
 
2013-07-08 01:02:09 PM

drp: No, the risk you're about to collide with when government fully takes over health care is that the government, or its delegated insurance bean-counter clown middlemen, will tell you that you don't get to see doctor, and that the nurse practitioner with a few extra months of OJT and some online classes is just as good as a doctor.


Weird. For the past 10+ years, my wallet and area health care providers/insurers have been telling me the exact same thing.
 
2013-07-08 01:03:27 PM
I'm hoping that the defense team gets Benjamin Crump up on the stand and tears his scheming, lying ass apart, causing him both to perjure himself and completely disqualify himself as a reasonable and ethical attorney. (I think that he's already done the latter to himself, BTW). Dump the Crump, you J4T folk, and you'll be that much better for it.....
 
2013-07-08 01:03:43 PM
If Martin had lived he would be serving a dime for aggravated assault.
 
2013-07-08 01:04:22 PM

Wangiss: ChaosStar: What people do not seem to be able to comprehend is nothing prior to the concrete being used and/or Martin reaching for the gun matters.
None of it. At all. Period.
Doesn't matter if GZ chased Martin calling him every racial slur in the book.
Doesn't matter if GZ threw the first punch or Martin did.

As soon as lethal force was used, or attempted to be used again GZ, he was within his rights as someone afraid for his life to use his ccw.
The concrete is a deadly weapon, and was used.
Reaching for GZ's gun was lethal force attempting to be utilized.

This completely nullifies not only a murder charge but a manslaughter or any other homicide charge.
Not my opinion, that's the law.

Well put.



Unless GZ displayed the gun FIRST and TM was attempting to use the concrete to disarm him... In that scenario the use of the concrete was justified and GZ is guilty of murder.
 
2013-07-08 01:04:32 PM

lantawa: I'm hoping that the defense team gets Benjamin Crump up on the stand and tears his scheming, lying ass apart, causing him both to perjure himself and completely disqualify himself as a reasonable and ethical attorney. (I think that he's already done the latter to himself, BTW). Dump the Crump, you J4T folk, and you'll be that much better for it.....


Can he claim some legal immunity because he represents the victims as a civil attorney?
 
2013-07-08 01:06:43 PM

billwill: If Martin had lived he would be serving a dime for aggravated assault.


I think this what many people miss out on, unless people really think Zimmerman touched him or tried to detain him, seeing they established following and confronting are not illegal, but punching someone for doing it is
 
2013-07-08 01:07:45 PM

TheWhoppah: You clearly can't divorce the proffered evidence from your feelings about said evidence. Its like you can't even SEE that any evidence was presented that contradicts your opinion.
No offense, but you would make alousy judge.



I can read the law.

More importantly, I can understand it.

The law says that in circumstantial-evidence cases, the prosecution's evidence must rule out the not-guilty hypotheses.

Not even the FAP Team is prepared to embarrass themselves by claiming that, in this case, the State's evidence accomplishes this task.

I get it.  Due Process sticks in your craw when you have a bloodlust for a guy you really, really hate.  It's a bitter pill for you.  But just choke it on down, just the same.
 
2013-07-08 01:08:24 PM
TheWhoppah:
Unless GZ displayed the gun FIRST and TM was attempting to use the concrete to disarm him... In that scenario the use of the concrete was justified and GZ is guilty of murder.

That's a difficult argument to make.  The proper response to seeing someone with a gun is making sure they don't feel threatened, not attacking them, that would just be foolish.  "Woah, now let's not escalate this!" is the smart response.
 
2013-07-08 01:08:58 PM

stellarossa: LasersHurt: stellarossa: Popcorn Johnny: The judge didn't grant the defense motion to throw out the case, so Zimmerman must be guilty. That's what Team Trayvon has been rolling with on Facebook and other sites. Never mind the fact that judges never grant a motion to dismiss after hearing half the case.

Plus judge wants the jury to take the heat from the AA community for acquittal. She doesn't want them turning up at her house demanding answers.

So we're both surprised that the Prosecution/Martin camp still maintains their side of the argument? Because we're scared of black people?

The hell is wrong with you people?

Go ask her that. She doesn't want to the the one to make the call and therefore be the focal point for AA rage that, inevitabley, will come from an acquittal for Zimm.


I thought one of the 12 Steps had to do with making amends.
 
2013-07-08 01:11:10 PM

TheWhoppah: Wangiss: ChaosStar: What people do not seem to be able to comprehend is nothing prior to the concrete being used and/or Martin reaching for the gun matters.
None of it. At all. Period.
Doesn't matter if GZ chased Martin calling him every racial slur in the book.
Doesn't matter if GZ threw the first punch or Martin did.

As soon as lethal force was used, or attempted to be used again GZ, he was within his rights as someone afraid for his life to use his ccw.
The concrete is a deadly weapon, and was used.
Reaching for GZ's gun was lethal force attempting to be utilized.

This completely nullifies not only a murder charge but a manslaughter or any other homicide charge.
Not my opinion, that's the law.

Well put.


Unless GZ displayed the gun FIRST and TM was attempting to use the concrete to disarm him... In that scenario the use of the concrete was justified and GZ is guilty of murder.


Wrong
GZ could have pulled up his shirt and said "see my gat!" and TM still couldn't have attacked him and certainly couldn't have used the concrete to disarm him, however in the world that would work.
 
2013-07-08 01:11:10 PM

Magorn: on this subject your views are colored by bias



Heh .. colored.
 
2013-07-08 01:11:42 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: I'm pretty sure Aaron Hernandez has a story too. Should we take his word as well?


Probably not. Hernandez wasn't smart enough to get rid of the evidence. Ray Lewis was smart enough to make sure that suit never got found.

\coincidentally, he won't be receiving a lethal injection in the near future
 
2013-07-08 01:12:22 PM

Mid_mo_mad_man: It's very clear Martin wasn't just walking home. A ten minute trip was taking 30+ minutes. That being said he wasn't scared or worried over the " cracker" following him. He wanted to teach him a lesson for dissing him.


I ten tend to agree. If he was really afraid he would have hidden or just out run fat Zimmerman and headed home to call the cops.

To some degree Trayvon died of testosterone poisoning.
 
2013-07-08 01:12:59 PM
Magorn

TP, I'mma lay it on the line, You seem like a decent person by and large, if a reflexively conservative one poltically. but on this subject your views are colored by bias. You, and a half a dozen of the most vocal Zimmerman defenders on this thread are, whether you realize it or not, stone cold racists, and your worldview is so warped you don't even realize it.

Dude, this goes both ways. I've never talked about Martin's pictures of guns, called him a thug, or mentioned his drug-use save to assert it doesn't mean anything. And there have been people telling me that literally the only reason I think Zimmerman should walk is because I "secretly want to kill black people."

It's that crazy. And it's spinning from every angle.
 
2013-07-08 01:12:59 PM

iucpa: The Muthaship: I listened to the testimony on satellite radio as I drove to Chicago Friday.  Jesus, Dr, Bao is a moron!

what channel is broadcasting it on SirsXM?


It was on HLN, I think.
 
2013-07-08 01:13:30 PM

bigpete53: KellyX: You still really consider Florida to be the "deep south"... There's a reason it's purple

Everything north of Orlando is pretty deep South. Especially when you get up to the point where you're even with the panhandle.


Somehow I don't consider Daytona Beach as "deep south" nor Jacksonville for that matter... (Palm Coast, St. Augustine, or Sanford...) I don't know the panhandle region as well, but somehow I don't think it's rapid racism like you'd find in SC or AL areas...
 
2013-07-08 01:14:49 PM

nekom: Poverty, the destruction of the black family, racism, there are a ton of reasons for the situation, and in many ways we're STILL seeing the results of slavery turned into an underclass.


I get the first two, but what do racism and slavery have to do with black-on-black violence?
 
2013-07-08 01:15:39 PM

Scerpes: They couldn't pursue 1st degree murder without an indictment in Florida. They can and have gone for 2nd degree murder.


I have read differently regarding this. I've read that a Grand Jury is required for Murder 1 but for anything less a judge can review the evidence and go from there based upon what was before him. Essentially a Grand Jury finding from the bench if you will. This is done to prevent malicious prosecutions from occurring by adding a level of judicial review instead of just letting prosecutors run amok. I mean otherwise a prosecutor with an axe to grind could really cause some damage financially and to a persons reputation as they defend themselves on trumped up charges right?
 
2013-07-08 01:15:43 PM

Thunderpipes: Sad thing is, the vast majority of black kids killed are killed by other black people, and nobody bats an eye.



I know you're just doing your little thing hre, but I'm going to use your post to expose this frequently told lie.

NAACP march against black-on-black crime
http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2011/07/sclc_organizing_march_against.htm l">http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2011/07/sclc_organizing_march_against. html

Even giving you the counter-point from an African-American who crusades against black-on-black crime and says that the NAACPs methods are not helping
http://withintheblackcommunity.blogspot.com/2009/05/naacp-marches-aga i nst-pirate-on-black.html">http://withintheblackcommunity.blogspot.com /2009/05/naacp-marches-agai nst-pirate-on-black.html


Stop the violence Hip-Hop concert in Philly
http://hiphopwired.com/2011/07/26/trina-joins-stop-the-violence-movem e nt-in-philadelphia/">http://hiphopwired.com/2011/07/26/trina-joins-st op-the-violence-moveme nt-in-philadelphia/


Hip-Hop artists joining with Mayor Bloomberg to unite against violence
http://allhiphop.com/2011/10/18/swizz-beatz-rappers-joins-mayor-bloom b erg-to-denounce-violenxe/">http://allhiphop.com/2011/10/18/swizz-beat z-rappers-joins-mayor-bloomb erg-to-denounce-violenxe/


The lie may help you to keep the boogeyman alive, but as a black man, I'm as troubled by violence as any of you. To suggest otherwise would be foolish.
 
2013-07-08 01:17:17 PM

KellyX: bigpete53: KellyX: You still really consider Florida to be the "deep south"... There's a reason it's purple

Everything north of Orlando is pretty deep South. Especially when you get up to the point where you're even with the panhandle.

Somehow I don't consider Daytona Beach as "deep south" nor Jacksonville for that matter... (Palm Coast, St. Augustine, or Sanford...) I don't know the panhandle region as well, but somehow I don't think it's rapid racism like you'd find in SC or AL areas...


Man go to clay county, south past middleburg and all that area in between saint augustine and the gulf all that farming and logging area you will feel really out of place confederate flags everywhere, its wild almost seems like a different place completely
 
2013-07-08 01:17:49 PM

KellyX: bigpete53: KellyX: You still really consider Florida to be the "deep south"... There's a reason it's purple

Everything north of Orlando is pretty deep South. Especially when you get up to the point where you're even with the panhandle.

Somehow I don't consider Daytona Beach as "deep south" nor Jacksonville for that matter... (Palm Coast, St. Augustine, or Sanford...) I don't know the panhandle region as well, but somehow I don't think it's rapid racism like you'd find in SC or AL areas...


Florida isn't the deep south. There are some areas, like Live Oak, that are indistinguishable from rural Georgia, but no one lives in those areas. Coastal Florida (where the people live) is very cosmopolitan. Anyone suggesting that 2013 Florida is "deep south" is either an idiot, or lying for political reasons.
 
2013-07-08 01:17:55 PM
Have not followed the case for half a week or so (too much BBQ, you know). I come back to more or less the same things going back and forth. So, let me get a few things clear for both sides

1. There is no independent source to verify that TM was actually acting suspicious. He may have been walking as fast as possible without looking at anything. There is no way to know. The time stamp from 7-Eleven does not say anything either. He may waited someone for the rain to slow down, or talk to someone or whatever. Simply, there is nothing to show one way or another that he was acting suspicious.

2. For either group, whatever the court verdict is, that is what justice, for of them. If you are saying we want justice for TM/GZ and therefore we want him convicted/not convicted, you are contradicting yourself. You may say, you don't agree with the law then, but that is what still considered justice.

3. With his "insignificant" injury, less than a minute long fight with a guy 40lb lighter than he is, there is nothing to prove that his life was ever in danger. You may say, that is what he felt, but if I just look at a big black guy in a dark alley, and feel my life is in danger, that is my problem, not the other guy's.

4. There are more than one way to start a fight than physically throwing the first punch.

5. Martin acted stupidly. Was it because he was high, or it came natural, does not matter.

6. When a dispatcher said, we don't need you to do that, is in their jargon, do not do it. Because he is not the boss of GZ, he could not directly say that. That may not be illegal, but sure as hell stupid.
 
2013-07-08 01:18:53 PM

This text is now purple: nekom: Poverty, the destruction of the black family, racism, there are a ton of reasons for the situation, and in many ways we're STILL seeing the results of slavery turned into an underclass.

I get the first two, but what do racism and slavery have to do with black-on-black violence?


Well, there is no doubt in my mind that slavery is ultimately responsible for creating the black underclass.  It's obviously gotten a LOT better over the years, but the statistics still show that blacks are nowhere near economic parity with whites.  Racism probably also originated from slavery, you'd really have to completely dehumanize a race of people in order to treat them as property and still be able to sleep at night.
 
2013-07-08 01:19:12 PM

The Muthaship: Hobodeluxe: Nah George will get rich

How much money would he have to make from this in order for you to want to trade places with him?

And where will this money come from?


Book money. TV appearance money. His website. etc.
 
2013-07-08 01:19:40 PM

lantawa: I'm hoping that the defense team gets Benjamin Crump up on the stand and tears his scheming, lying ass apart, causing him both to perjure himself and completely disqualify himself as a reasonable and ethical attorney. (I think that he's already done the latter to himself, BTW). Dump the Crump, you J4T folk, and you'll be that much better for it.....


He will just claim attorney client privilege on any question asked. You're better off taking him in front of the state bar which has looser standards in that regard.
 
2013-07-08 01:20:01 PM

ChaosStar: TheWhoppah: Wangiss: ChaosStar: What people do not seem to be able to comprehend is nothing prior to the concrete being used and/or Martin reaching for the gun matters.
None of it. At all. Period.
Doesn't matter if GZ chased Martin calling him every racial slur in the book.
Doesn't matter if GZ threw the first punch or Martin did.

As soon as lethal force was used, or attempted to be used again GZ, he was within his rights as someone afraid for his life to use his ccw.
The concrete is a deadly weapon, and was used.
Reaching for GZ's gun was lethal force attempting to be utilized.

This completely nullifies not only a murder charge but a manslaughter or any other homicide charge.
Not my opinion, that's the law.

Well put.


Unless GZ displayed the gun FIRST and TM was attempting to use the concrete to disarm him... In that scenario the use of the concrete was justified and GZ is guilty of murder.

Wrong
GZ could have pulled up his shirt and said "see my gat!" and TM still couldn't have attacked him and certainly couldn't have used the concrete to disarm him, however in the world that would work.


I actually remember a drug dealer/buyer getting shot because he told another person he was packing heat. I'm trying to find it via google but I am getting lazier and lazier as my search continues.
 
2013-07-08 01:20:46 PM

mayIFark: Have not followed the case for half a week or so (too much BBQ, you know). I come back to more or less the same things going back and forth. So, let me get a few things clear for both sides

1. There is no independent source to verify that TM was actually acting suspicious. He may have been walking as fast as possible without looking at anything. There is no way to know. The time stamp from 7-Eleven does not say anything either. He may waited someone for the rain to slow down, or talk to someone or whatever. Simply, there is nothing to show one way or another that he was acting suspicious.

2. For either group, whatever the court verdict is, that is what justice, for of them. If you are saying we want justice for TM/GZ and therefore we want him convicted/not convicted, you are contradicting yourself. You may say, you don't agree with the law then, but that is what still considered justice.

3. With his "insignificant" injury, less than a minute long fight with a guy 40lb lighter than he is, there is nothing to prove that his life was ever in danger. You may say, that is what he felt, but if I just look at a big black guy in a dark alley, and feel my life is in danger, that is my problem, not the other guy's.

4. There are more than one way to start a fight than physically throwing the first punch.

5. Martin acted stupidly. Was it because he was high, or it came natural, does not matter.

6. When a dispatcher said, we don't need you to do that, is in their jargon, do not do it. Because he is not the boss of GZ, he could not directly say that. That may not be illegal, but sure as hell stupid.


NOPE. Go back to your BBQ.
 
2013-07-08 01:20:57 PM

Elegy: Work obligations will keep me out of the thread for most of the morning and early afternoon.

I will, however, pop in from time to time with amusing material.

A reading of the script for "Murderous Racism: The George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin Story"

An amusing gif


LOL!

That's pretty much all of NBC's coverage.
 
2013-07-08 01:21:03 PM

WillofJ2: lantawa: I'm hoping that the defense team gets Benjamin Crump up on the stand and tears his scheming, lying ass apart, causing him both to perjure himself and completely disqualify himself as a reasonable and ethical attorney. (I think that he's already done the latter to himself, BTW). Dump the Crump, you J4T folk, and you'll be that much better for it.....

Can he claim some legal immunity because he represents the victims as a civil attorney?


He can claim he's a ham sandwich, if he wants to.
 
2013-07-08 01:21:11 PM

ChaosStar: TheWhoppah: Wangiss: ChaosStar: What people do not seem to be able to comprehend is nothing prior to the concrete being used and/or Martin reaching for the gun matters.
None of it. At all. Period.
Doesn't matter if GZ chased Martin calling him every racial slur in the book.
Doesn't matter if GZ threw the first punch or Martin did.

As soon as lethal force was used, or attempted to be used again GZ, he was within his rights as someone afraid for his life to use his ccw.
The concrete is a deadly weapon, and was used.
Reaching for GZ's gun was lethal force attempting to be utilized.

This completely nullifies not only a murder charge but a manslaughter or any other homicide charge.
Not my opinion, that's the law.

Well put.


Unless GZ displayed the gun FIRST and TM was attempting to use the concrete to disarm him... In that scenario the use of the concrete was justified and GZ is guilty of murder.

Wrong
GZ could have pulled up his shirt and said "see my gat!" and TM still couldn't have attacked him and certainly couldn't have used the concrete to disarm him, however in the world that would work.


Are you sure?  If he pulled his shirt up and said "see my gat!", isn't that brandishing, which is a felony?  Doesn't self-defense go out the window during the commission of a felony?
 
2013-07-08 01:21:32 PM

Hobodeluxe: The Muthaship: Hobodeluxe: Nah George will get rich

How much money would he have to make from this in order for you to want to trade places with him?

And where will this money come from?

Book money. TV appearance money. His website. etc.


Skipped the tough one, eh?

I don't blame you.

/and IMO you are wrong about how much his "book deal" gets him.
//paid TV appearances...$600 or so?
///website?  No idea what you are thinking here.
 
2013-07-08 01:21:35 PM

Facetious_Speciest: oldfarthenry

Kinda looks like Michael Moore was right about the dangers of armed paranoid white 'merikuns.

The only armed white 'merikuns were the cops that showed up.


I'm guessing that you think that Hispanic is a race and not an ethnic category, yes?
 
2013-07-08 01:21:41 PM

TheWhoppah: You clearly can't divorce the proffered evidence from your feelings about said evidence. Its like you can't even SEE that any evidence was presented that contradicts your opinion.
No offense, but you would make alousy judge.


What evidence?

Remember to be specific.
 
2013-07-08 01:21:54 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: KellyX: bigpete53: KellyX: You still really consider Florida to be the "deep south"... There's a reason it's purple

Everything north of Orlando is pretty deep South. Especially when you get up to the point where you're even with the panhandle.

Somehow I don't consider Daytona Beach as "deep south" nor Jacksonville for that matter... (Palm Coast, St. Augustine, or Sanford...) I don't know the panhandle region as well, but somehow I don't think it's rapid racism like you'd find in SC or AL areas...

Florida isn't the deep south. There are some areas, like Live Oak, that are indistinguishable from rural Georgia, but no one lives in those areas. Coastal Florida (where the people live) is very cosmopolitan. Anyone suggesting that 2013 Florida is "deep south" is either an idiot, or lying for political reasons.


Drive I-10 through northern Florida and tell me it isn't deep South. Just because the large metro areas aren't deep South doesn't mean the rural areas aren't. I live in NOLA, and I have no problem saying that areas just 30 minutes outside the city limits are still Deep South. Heck, 90% of those swamp shows are shot within 100 miles of NOLA.
 
2013-07-08 01:22:03 PM

WillofJ2: KellyX: bigpete53: KellyX: You still really consider Florida to be the "deep south"... There's a reason it's purple

Everything north of Orlando is pretty deep South. Especially when you get up to the point where you're even with the panhandle.

Somehow I don't consider Daytona Beach as "deep south" nor Jacksonville for that matter... (Palm Coast, St. Augustine, or Sanford...) I don't know the panhandle region as well, but somehow I don't think it's rapid racism like you'd find in SC or AL areas...

Man go to clay county, south past middleburg and all that area in between saint augustine and the gulf all that farming and logging area you will feel really out of place confederate flags everywhere, its wild almost seems like a different place completely


I don't deny there are areas that are very redneck, but Florida is so far from being described as "deep south"... I guess it's so "deep south" it elected a black democrat to be President of the US twice in a row...
 
2013-07-08 01:22:23 PM

This text is now purple: nekom: Poverty, the destruction of the black family, racism, there are a ton of reasons for the situation, and in many ways we're STILL seeing the results of slavery turned into an underclass.

I get the first two, but what do racism and slavery have to do with black-on-black violence?


No one has time to re-explain the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, Jim Crow, and segregation to you. I'm sure there's a 5th grade summer school course going on somewhere right now that may be able to help you.
 
2013-07-08 01:22:33 PM

Deucednuisance: Tatsuma: No problems. So many idiots just screaming about how Zimmerman is a racist that it's easy to forget that there is no credible proof of that, while we do have proof that Martin used racist epithets.

Sigh, so many wasted electrons by so many posters.

How are the words either one used speaking to third parties relevant to how they interacted with one another?

ChaosStar: To be fair, he really doesn't have to prove he's innocent with an affirmative defense, just show evidence that the self defense was justified. Reasonable doubt can still exist.

Actually, Counselor, that's exactly backwards. "Affirmative defense" means "defense that has to be proven".  Not just "justified", but "that it occurred".

And reasonable doubt pertains to doubt about guilt, not defenses.

Don't quit your day job.


Umm... affirmative defense means you are saying "Yes, I did it, but here's why it isn't a crime"

At least that's the way I've always seen it presented
 
2013-07-08 01:22:40 PM
Some 'Splainin' To Do

I'm guessing that you think that Hispanic is a race and not an ethnic category, yes?

No.
 
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