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(WPTV)   Will the prosecution cry "Uncle" after GZ's uncle's testimony? Will the judge rule that the defense can't present a defense because it might cause the jury to decide "not guilty"? Will these Zimmerman trial threads ever end? Not today   (wptv.com) divider line 1158
    More: Followup, George Zimmerman, prosecutors, uncles, jury  
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5206 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jul 2013 at 9:36 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-08 11:01:30 AM

ChaosStar: IdBeCrazyIf: ChaosStar: Yes, fights do happen, but when one person moves the fight from assault and/or battery to attempted murder, responsibilities for being in that fight have no bearing on the ensuing defense of life.

Never been in a fight have you?

Things escalate quickly, but just because they do...that does not absolve you of your responsibility of putting yourself there to begin with.

I've been in multiple fights, key word there: fights.
I have only once been part of an attempted murder, which is what a fight becomes when someone uses lethal force during the fight.
Escalating it to that level does, in fact, absolve you of your legal responsibilities for being in the fight, hence the Use of Force by Aggressor statute.


Where were you fighting, inside a padded room? I've been in play fights with friends where we came close to smashing a skull in on a concrete floor or a metal support beam. You cannot perform the simplest of take-downs on a hard surface with in a room with hard furniture without there being a risk of serious bodily harm, and nobody defending themselves against an assailant they don't know, who is attacking them for reasons they don't know, should ever be forced to hold back to meet whatever silly fighting etiquette you believe exists.

Giltric: He stopped following Trayvon therefore he broke off the confrontation as an aggressor. Trayvon doubled back and went after Zimmemrman after Trayvon went all the way home thus initiating Trayvons role as an aggressor.


I'm surprised. I didn't think you would be in support of a duty to retreat.
 
2013-07-08 11:01:40 AM
Smackledorfer:

It's not lethal provocation if they did it in defense of their own life because you're possibly taking their life by smacking their head into concrete. What position they do it in is irrelevant.

No, you claim self defense to the investigators, the investigators... you know... investigate, then they collaborate with the DA's office and bring charges against you. You can claim self defense, but it's not up to the jury to decide if you were defending yourself, it's up to them to decide if you're not guilty of murder, manslaughter, what have you. You're innocent until proven guilty, remember?

You really have no idea how the legal system works do you? Your reply to Scerpes indicates you do not.
 
2013-07-08 11:02:00 AM
For all the acquitters, would Zimmerman make a good cop?
 
2013-07-08 11:02:20 AM

limeyfellow: What I yet to see though is why stand your ground laws don't apply to Trayvon Martin.


They do apply, but it doesn't make much of a difference. It's quite true that Zimmerman's right to defend himself does not negate Martin's, but that cuts both ways: Martin's right to defend himself does not negate Zimmerman's either. If we're to determine that one or the other wasn't acting appropriately, then we need to use other factors.

That's the thing about deadly conflicts. They don't determine who is right, only who is left. It's more common to hear that said about war, but it scales down to interpersonal conflict when things turn that sour.

Isn't that what stand your ground laws are about. If you fear for your life you have the right to fight back with all weapons at your disposal?

Strictly speaking, that's the basic right of self-defense, not the stand-your-ground principle. But legally speaking, the basic right carries with it a number of restrictions, and one of the big ones is that you have to retreat first if you're able to do so.

Stand-your-ground laws, at their core, are about relaxing that restriction: they state that there are some circumstances where you do not have to retreat first. For example, some versions state that you don't have to retreat if you're already in your own home (when this is the only thing in the statute, it is often called the "castle doctrine" instead). Florida's law allows for a number of other situations, and what's at stake in the Zimmerman trial is whether or not his situation was one of them.
 
2013-07-08 11:02:30 AM
I have a question.  People keep on talking about Zimmerman getting convicted of Manslaughter.  I had read that Florida only charged him with Second Degree Murder.  I thought that the defence had the option of going for all or nothing, not allowing the jury to consider lesser included offences.  Either he gets convicted of murder or walks out a free man.  Is this true, not true in general, or just not true in Florida's bizarre legal system?

Because if it is possible, I think that would be the smartest move.
 
2013-07-08 11:03:28 AM

The Muthaship: Can we get some updates about the testimony for those of us that can't listen to the testimony at work instead of the needle endlessly skipping on the record player?


All of zimmermans friends think it was george zimmerman on 911 tape, they still havent called the janitor from his preschool but he will probably agree

Osterman the friend got up to talk about zimmermans gun training  tried to explain why having a bullet in the chamber is a bad idea and that zimmerman should have double tapped martin

Prosecutor taking every opportunity to play "farking punks" but is looking like an idiot each time
 
2013-07-08 11:03:32 AM

limeyfellow: Isn't that what stand your ground laws are about. If you fear for your life you have the right to fight back with all weapons at your disposal?


No.  The difference may seem subtle, but it is VERY important.

Stand Your Ground states that you have no duty to retreat and are justified in using deadly force to defend yourself.  The legal standard for the use of lethal force in self-defense is that you are in imminent fear of grievous bodily harm or death or another person is at risk of same (defense of others).  The key words are imminent and grievous bodily harm.

According to all accounts, Martin initiated the physical confrontation.  As soon as he threw the first punch it was assault, not self-defense.  There is also no evidence that he was in fear and witness testimony that he was actively seeking an engagement with Zimmerman.  I was afraid so I attacked him in self-defense doesn't fly, especially here.
 
2013-07-08 11:03:39 AM

The Muthaship: Can we get some updates about the testimony for those of us that can't listen to the testimony at work instead of the needle endlessly skipping on the record player?


The Defense has paraded 3(?) witnesses who knew Zimmerman and say that is his voice on the 911 call screaming help.  One talked a lot about concealed carry and that Zimmerman was appropriate in his carrying of the gun like he did (one in the chamber and a full magazine).

No one mentioned that the superior trained police routinely shoot a suspect in self-defense more than one time, though.
 
2013-07-08 11:03:52 AM

RaceBoatDriver: For all the acquitters, would Zimmerman make a good cop?


If he kills a black teen and gets away with it, I can imagine at least 3 cities asking him to be their police chief.
 
2013-07-08 11:04:06 AM
Pumpernickel bread
2013-07-08 10:47:03 AM


After watching OJ, Casey Anthony, and now this, I am guessing the very best defense attorneys are exponentially better lawyers than even the best of prosecutors.

Defense lawyers = Private practice
Prosecutors = government jobs

Obviously the more skilled individuals will be in private practice.

/// can't wait till all medical jobs are government jobs.
 
2013-07-08 11:04:08 AM
RaceBoatDriver

For all the acquitters, would Zimmerman make a good cop?

I don't think so. I wouldn't even want him as a neighbor.

/shrug
 
2013-07-08 11:04:22 AM

Mr. Eugenides: nekom: Mr. Eugenides:
Remember, the prosecution showed that Martin initiated the physical confrontation.

Well, it's more that they couldn't prove that Zimmerman did.  Martin PROBABLY did, we'll never know for sure, but there's certainly copious amounts of reasonable doubt, which means advantage: defense.

Nope, Martin's girlfriend testified that Martin turned back to confront Zimmerman.  There has been zero evidence presented to suggest that Zimmerman initiated the physical approach.


If you're trying to make a point and start with this, just stop and consider your other options.
 
2013-07-08 11:05:02 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: MyRandomName: You seem to believe that under florida law, a precursor to self defense is not putting oneself in a position of possible trauma/fighting. Youd be wrong on this fact, yet you believe it.

negligently putting yourself in a situation makes you responsible for the outcome of that situation

Click Click D'oh: Ah yes, she deserved to be raped because she walked down that dark alley...

She was so damn sexy

ChaosStar: I've been in multiple fights, key word there: fights.
I have only once been part of an attempted murder, which is what a fight becomes when someone uses lethal force during the fight.
Escalating it to that level does, in fact, absolve you of your legal responsibilities for being in the fight, hence the Use of Force by Aggressor statute.

On technicality a fist is a lethal object

Stop being a abject obtuse moron

Giltric: He stopped following Trayvon therefore he broke off the confrontation as an aggressor. Trayvon doubled back and went after Zimmemrman after Trayvon went all the way home thus initiating Trayvons role as an aggressor.

Possible aggressor, we'll honestly never know. I've just been arguing from the point that the prosecution were idiots for attaching murder 2 when it could have been much easier for a manslaughter charge.

I personally feel that Zimmerman bears some responsibility for trying to play pretend cop that night, even if he was attacked his ass shouldn't have been out there playing cops and robbers.





The various cops, 911 operator and watch teacher have proved Zimmerman was not Barney Fife on patrol.
 
2013-07-08 11:05:36 AM

RaceBoatDriver: For all the acquitters, would Zimmerman make a good cop?


No such thing.
 
2013-07-08 11:05:59 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: ChaosStar: So you don't think he was defending himself?

He brazenly put himself in that situation which lead to the death of a person.through culpable negligence

Manslaughter


The nasty skank that charged me with rape was told by her mother not to go out dressed like that, but she didn't listen and it was her fault for getting raped. Luckily she couldn't defend herself so I didn't get shot or stabbed, but my case has no similarity to this case. Had she defended herself I would be sueing her and charging her with battery since she put herself into a rape position by not listening to her mother.
 
2013-07-08 11:06:15 AM

RaceBoatDriver: For all the acquitters, would Zimmerman make a good cop?


Well, he shot and killed with one shot.  LAPD can't even do that with 50+ shots.

Also, for those needing a fresher on the law in Florida, and one reporter's opinion.

Link
 
2013-07-08 11:06:17 AM

I_C_Weener: The Defense has paraded 3(?) witnesses who knew Zimmerman and say that is his voice on the 911 call screaming help.  One talked a lot about concealed carry and that Zimmerman was appropriate in his carrying of the gun like he did (one in the chamber and a full magazine).

No one mentioned that the superior trained police routinely shoot a suspect in self-defense more than one time, though.


WillofJ2: All of zimmermans friends think it was george zimmerman on 911 tape, they still havent called the janitor from his preschool but he will probably agree

Osterman the friend got up to talk about zimmermans gun training  tried to explain why having a bullet in the chamber is a bad idea and that zimmerman should have double tapped martin

Prosecutor taking every opportunity to play "farking punks" but is looking like an idiot each time


Facetious_Speciest: We're currently going through people who know Zimmerman testifying it's him yelling for help on the 911 calls.


Thanks!
 
2013-07-08 11:06:32 AM

Facetious_Speciest: The Muthaship

We're currently going through people who know Zimmerman testifying it's him yelling for help on the 911 calls.


Sure sounds like him.

images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-07-08 11:06:34 AM

HK-MP5-SD: I have a question.  People keep on talking about Zimmerman getting convicted of Manslaughter.  I had read that Florida only charged him with Second Degree Murder.  I thought that the defence had the option of going for all or nothing, not allowing the jury to consider lesser included offences.  Either he gets convicted of murder or walks out a free man.  Is this true, not true in general, or just not true in Florida's bizarre legal system?

Because if it is possible, I think that would be the smartest move.


I have been wondering that also, someone implied if they dont include the lessers he can be tried for them at a later day, but I have no idea, no one really explains it well

Side note, isnt the prosecutor buffing up all these claims that they know zimmermans voice by doing this?  They have basically just certified all these people in experts of zimmermans voice
 
2013-07-08 11:06:48 AM
WillofJ2

Osterman the friend got up to talk about zimmermans gun training tried to explain why having a bullet in the chamber is a bad idea and that zimmerman should have double tapped martin

Osterman said one should carry with a round chambered. The prosecution tried to make it look bad and talked about double-tapping. Is that what you meant?
 
2013-07-08 11:07:21 AM

HK-MP5-SD: I have a question.  People keep on talking about Zimmerman getting convicted of Manslaughter.  I had read that Florida only charged him with Second Degree Murder.  I thought that the defence had the option of going for all or nothing, not allowing the jury to consider lesser included offences.  Either he gets convicted of murder or walks out a free man.  Is this true, not true in general, or just not true in Florida's bizarre legal system?

Because if it is possible, I think that would be the smartest move.


The jury can still get him on manslaughter, but even that's a pipe dream at this point with the way the pros has handled this case
 
2013-07-08 11:07:23 AM
IdBeCrazyIf:

No, a fist is not legally a deadly weapon. Try again.
 
2013-07-08 11:08:22 AM
My heart can scarcely bear the warmth and goodwill that this court case brings out:

i466.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-08 11:08:32 AM

Facetious_Speciest: WillofJ2

Osterman the friend got up to talk about zimmermans gun training tried to explain why having a bullet in the chamber is a bad idea and that zimmerman should have double tapped martin

Osterman said one should carry with a round chambered. The prosecution tried to make it look bad and talked about double-tapping. Is that what you meant?


Exactly, sorry, reading that didnt come out the way I meant
 
2013-07-08 11:08:53 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: On technicality a fist is a lethal object


This actually was the law in parts of France, a few centuries ago. In response, people developed the fighting style that later came to be called savate, which specializes in kicks, open-handed slaps, and other means of dancing around the "a fist is a deadly weapon" rule.
 
2013-07-08 11:09:44 AM
The uncle was incredible, and the old lady testifying right now is another great witness. The prosecution is failing so hard right now.
 
2013-07-08 11:09:59 AM
This is like a bad hypnotist saying "you are getting sleepy, very sleepy"
 
2013-07-08 11:10:03 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: negligently putting yourself in a situation makes you responsible for the outcome of that situation


Not when the outcome of the situation is because of criminal activity on the part of another.  Negligence requires a person to ignore the likely result of a situation.  Criminal activity can never be required for consideration as a likely result.  Or else you are negligent for not wearing body armor every time you go to the bank.  It might be robbed you know.
 
2013-07-08 11:10:18 AM
RaceBoatDriver


For all the acquitters, would Zimmerman make a good cop?

No, the only good cop is...

so of the two, treyvon would be the better cop.
 
2013-07-08 11:10:47 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: I personally feel that Zimmerman bears some responsibility for trying to play pretend cop that night, even if he was attacked his ass shouldn't have been out there playing cops and robbers.


Says who?
 
2013-07-08 11:11:12 AM

WillofJ2: Osterman the friend got up to talk about zimmermans gun training tried to explain why having a bullet in the chamber is a bad idea and that zimmerman should have double tapped martin


I think you have that really backward.

BDLR tried to make it sound like a round in the chamber and not double-tapping was a bad idea. Osterman most certainly said he does advise a round in the chamber and topping off the magazine because it is 'better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it' as well as saying that you shoot to stop the threat, not to kill.
 
2013-07-08 11:12:15 AM

heili skrimsli: WillofJ2: Osterman the friend got up to talk about zimmermans gun training tried to explain why having a bullet in the chamber is a bad idea and that zimmerman should have double tapped martin

I think you have that really backward.

BDLR tried to make it sound like a round in the chamber and not double-tapping was a bad idea. Osterman most certainly said he does advise a round in the chamber and topping off the magazine because it is 'better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it' as well as saying that you shoot to stop the threat, not to kill.


yeah, just typed it wrong, watching and typing at the same time
 
2013-07-08 11:12:23 AM

Smackledorfer: ChaosStar: IdBeCrazyIf: ChaosStar: Yes, fights do happen, but when one person moves the fight from assault and/or battery to attempted murder, responsibilities for being in that fight have no bearing on the ensuing defense of life.

Never been in a fight have you?

Things escalate quickly, but just because they do...that does not absolve you of your responsibility of putting yourself there to begin with.

I've been in multiple fights, key word there: fights.
I have only once been part of an attempted murder, which is what a fight becomes when someone uses lethal force during the fight.
Escalating it to that level does, in fact, absolve you of your legal responsibilities for being in the fight, hence the Use of Force by Aggressor statute.

Where were you fighting, inside a padded room? I've been in play fights with friends where we came close to smashing a skull in on a concrete floor or a metal support beam. You cannot perform the simplest of take-downs on a hard surface with in a room with hard furniture without there being a risk of serious bodily harm, and nobody defending themselves against an assailant they don't know, who is attacking them for reasons they don't know, should ever be forced to hold back to meet whatever silly fighting etiquette you believe exists.

Giltric: He stopped following Trayvon therefore he broke off the confrontation as an aggressor. Trayvon doubled back and went after Zimmemrman after Trayvon went all the way home thus initiating Trayvons role as an aggressor.

I'm surprised. I didn't think you would be in support of a duty to retreat.


In a perfect world nobody should be forced by the law to run from the person attacking them.

In this case I am just trying to put the timeline in perspective for those who thought Zimmerman should have walked away....which he did.

When I am with my family, my first order of business is to extricate them from the situation and not jump up and start blasting people in the head like they were steel plates at 25 yards.

There are different rules when I am flying solo.
 
2013-07-08 11:12:28 AM
Prosecutor is grasping at straws trying to make a case that Zimmerman was running based on that old lady.
 
2013-07-08 11:13:00 AM

RaceBoatDriver: For all the acquitters, would Zimmerman make a good cop?


No, because he didn't shoot Trayvon 52 times the moment Trayvon pretended to have a gun in his waistband.
 
2013-07-08 11:13:07 AM
This line of questioning is as dead horse sand BDLR is beating it over and over again
 
2013-07-08 11:13:09 AM
Hi guys, I'm just tuning in now... Is this woman another voice recognition expert or something?
 
2013-07-08 11:13:24 AM
I can't believe the judge overruled the objection for that farking ridiculous question!
 
2013-07-08 11:13:25 AM

Cletus C.: Zimmerman playing Paul Blart is, was and always will be the problem. Without that asshattery a person isn't dead and another on trial. Farking dumbass.


Haven't you ever seen an "uplifting" news report, or movie or story where the citizens of a rough neighborhood "take back" their streets from the thugs/ prostitutes/ gang-bangers/ hoods? At some point in every one of these offerings, there is an early climactic moment where a confrontation occurs. Usually multiple confrontations. Early in the story, the confrontation goes in favor of the antagonist(s) of the story. And, the "turning point" involves the confrontation going in favor of the people trying to "take back their streets." Well, this is no different. This country is built upon the foundational principle that we as citizens, bear the personal right (and responsibility) of seeing to the protection of our selves, our neighbors, and our neighborhoods.

What's really on trial here is the continued viability of using "Angry Black Man Syndrome" as a mitigating factor in anti-social behavior. Zimmerman observed Martin coming out of a neighbor's back yard, dressed in clothing which obscured him enough to prevent positive identification, so he followed Martin, and summoned the authorities. Nowhere here is antisocial behavior displayed. Martin, on the other hand, led Zimmerman into a secluded area, where the confrontation and altercation took place. Martin was not only taller than Zimmerman, he was also a football player. One does not become a football player by displaying traits tending towards passivity. The testimony of Martin's "friend" clearly demonstrates the antisocial, racist mindset of his clique.

Ironically, Obama claims that Martin "could have been his son". If Martin was Obama's son, Obama would never have been elected President. The "Creepy-ass Cracker" mentality would have instantly doomed him from the start.
 
2013-07-08 11:13:25 AM

Smackledorfer: Where were you fighting, inside a padded room? I've been in play fights with friends where we came close to smashing a skull in on a concrete floor or a metal support beam. You cannot perform the simplest of take-downs on a hard surface with in a room with hard furniture without there being a risk of serious bodily harm, and nobody defending themselves against an assailant they don't know, who is attacking them for reasons they don't know, should ever be forced to hold back to meet whatever silly fighting etiquette you believe exists.


No, most of the time I was fighting in a bar because it was my job to eject them and they decided to take the matter physical.
You're confusing consensual activity with illegal attacks, you said it yourself "play fights".
You're also, I would hope, not continuing to strike your friends in a way that could end their life after the first mistake. Had you actually smashed your friend's skull into that concrete floor or metal support beam would you have continued to do so?
Hopefully your answer is no. This is where yet another dovetail happens, as your friend doesn't reasonably believe you're trying to kill him.

This isn't fighting etiquette, this is the law. You can rave against it all you want, but it's still the law.
 
2013-07-08 11:14:06 AM
The judge finally overruled a defense objection, thank god she was looking biased
 
2013-07-08 11:14:09 AM

Tatsuma: I can't believe the judge overruled the objection for that farking ridiculous question!


By now, it should be easy to believe.
 
2013-07-08 11:14:22 AM

ChaosStar: IdBeCrazyIf:

No, a fist is not legally a deadly weapon. Try again.


Well, unless you're Chuck Norris of course.
 
2013-07-08 11:14:23 AM
Tatsuma

Prosecutor is grasping at straws trying to make a case that Zimmerman was running based on that old lady.

Seriously.
 
2013-07-08 11:15:01 AM
This case is an example of what happens when a "wanna be cop" crosses paths with a "wanna be gangsta*".


*How Trayvon self Identified.
 
2013-07-08 11:15:08 AM

Cataholic: Only if you think that it was reasonably forseeable that walking up to someone and asking them what they are up to would result in having your nose broken and your head bashed against a sidewalk.


It is always a possibility. Outside of the movies it is highly unlikely that everyone wakes up just fine the next day after an actual fight. A fifteen year old in my high school got pushed by a student, punched him in the face in response, resulting in his falling into a locker.  They had to hospitalize and drain pressure building up inside his skull because he fell against the locker so badly.  Without the trip to the hospital he would have died.  One punch from a teenager that went wrong.

It is why I don't walk my streets at night playing cop and attempting to force everyone I deem suspicious to stop and explain themselves to me.  Well, that and I'm not a wannabe cop retard.   So far it has saved me a lot of trouble.


This situation is one in which we have an adult making extremely stupid decisions and a youth (who yes, I give far more leeway to in terms of doing stupid shiat) making perhaps equally stupid decisions, all of which wound up with someone dead. It sucks for everyone involved.  I don't think either had any intent to kill the other at the start of the confrontation. I think both of them made decisions that lead to a physical encounter. I think physical encounters between angry strangers stand a good chance of getting out of hand.

Who got physical first (and fwiw there are a variety of pre-assault indicators that can justify a first strike, too)? I have no idea. What specifically was said? I also have no idea. Either could have been the aggressor here. Both likely could have made different decisions that resulted in a better outcome for all involved.
 
2013-07-08 11:15:09 AM

Yes please: genepool lifeboat: jehovahs witness protection: And the maximum sentence for being innocent is?

Probably a lifetime of harassment.

Yeah, but probably a short lifetime.  If you really want to see race riots, just wait until they convict whoever kills him.


White people haven't rioted since the 20's.
 
2013-07-08 11:15:38 AM
Did anyone imagine this lady would be on the stand longer then martins mother?
 
2013-07-08 11:15:42 AM

The Muthaship: By now, it should be easy to believe.


I guess I'm naive, I'd expect her to at least pretend to be somewhat objective.

Facetious_Speciest: Seriously.


Yeah he's doing such a bad job right now. He must be drinking so hard when he comes back at night, and just cry in his drink that he's been cursed pursuing that case.
 
2013-07-08 11:15:50 AM

Radioactive Ass: ChaosStar: IdBeCrazyIf:

No, a fist is not legally a deadly weapon. Try again.

Well, unless you're Chuck Norris of course.


Stop helping the derp lol :p
 
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