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(WPTV)   Will the prosecution cry "Uncle" after GZ's uncle's testimony? Will the judge rule that the defense can't present a defense because it might cause the jury to decide "not guilty"? Will these Zimmerman trial threads ever end? Not today   (wptv.com) divider line 1158
    More: Followup, George Zimmerman, prosecutors, uncles, jury  
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5207 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jul 2013 at 9:36 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-08 09:54:50 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: ChaosStar: So you don't think he was defending himself?

He brazenly put himself in that situation which lead to the death of a person.through culpable negligence

Manslaughter


You didn't answer the question.
 
2013-07-08 09:54:55 AM

The Muthaship: LasersHurt: The Muthaship: But, there's no evidence to support that conclusion.

There's also no evidence to support that he's an innocent man who was attacked and had to defend himself. It's just that he's the only one alive to tell his side.

There is certainly evidence of that (Guy and Zimmerman's injuries, etc), but that's not the point.  He doesn't have to prove himself innocent.


That "evidence" would be exactly the same if Zimmerman started the confrontation and lost.

The latter part is right, but does not mean he IS innocent. Just that, legally speaking, he'll be found not guilty in this trial.
 
2013-07-08 09:54:59 AM

LasersHurt: The Muthaship: But, there's no evidence to support that conclusion.

There's also no evidence to support that he's an innocent man who was attacked and had to defend himself. It's just that he's the only one alive to tell his side.


He is entitled to a legal presumption of innocence.
 
2013-07-08 09:55:17 AM
stellarossa: ...acquittal for Zimm

NOT GUILTY!
th00.deviantart.net


 
2013-07-08 09:56:39 AM

LasersHurt: There's also no evidence to support that he's an innocent man who was attacked and had to defend himself. It's just that he's the only one alive to tell his side.


Well aside from Good's and W#8's testimony that is.
 
2013-07-08 09:57:28 AM

nekom: The Muthaship:
I can understand how someone would think he's guilty of manslaughter based on what they believe happened.  But, there's no evidence to support that conclusion.

I WANT him to be guilty because I think what he did was way out of line, but I'd agree, there's just no evidence to find for murder or manslaughter.  There may be grounds for a civil case of wrongful death, if the law doesn't shield him from that.  The whole situation just sucks for all involved, and nobody is going to bring that kid back to life, but this trial is a farce.


I believe that under Florida state law, if he's found not guilty by the jury, that shields him from any civil suit:

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.-
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force,


The way I read that, if he's acquitted by reason of self-defense, he's not liable, and can't be sued.
 
2013-07-08 09:57:30 AM

AeAe: nekom: LasersHurt:
Neither way is good, if you ask me. And you didn't. But I told you anyway.

No outcome is good.  A couple of knuckleheads collided and a young man died.  It's not murder, but it is a sad situation for all involved.

not murder.  manslaughter.


What I yet to see though is why stand your ground laws don't apply to Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman admitted to following the guy in a car for a number of blocks, then when he sees an appropiate time he jumps out and goes after the kid with no sort of announcement of intent, he enters the personal space of Trayvon Martin to confront himself. If Martin had been older and shot Zimmerman and survive the case would have been thrown out as self defense, especially with the phone calls that Zimmerman made that he is after the kid.

Isn't that what stand your ground laws are about. If you fear for your life you have the right to fight back with all weapons at your disposal?
 
2013-07-08 09:57:36 AM
How come no questions about the content of his CHL class? In TX, they go over SYG in great detail. The instructor will also proudly tell you that you can kill a person for stealing your neighbor's TV. Yet we "value l
 
2013-07-08 09:57:40 AM
boot up the riot machine?
 
2013-07-08 09:58:07 AM

dittybopper: nekom: The Muthaship:
I can understand how someone would think he's guilty of manslaughter based on what they believe happened.  But, there's no evidence to support that conclusion.

I WANT him to be guilty because I think what he did was way out of line, but I'd agree, there's just no evidence to find for murder or manslaughter.  There may be grounds for a civil case of wrongful death, if the law doesn't shield him from that.  The whole situation just sucks for all involved, and nobody is going to bring that kid back to life, but this trial is a farce.

I believe that under Florida state law, if he's found not guilty by the jury, that shields him from any civil suit:

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.-
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force,

The way I read that, if he's acquitted by reason of self-defense, he's not liable, and can't be sued.


That's precisely correct
 
2013-07-08 09:58:43 AM

QueenMamaBee: stellarossa: Popcorn Johnny: The judge didn't grant the defense motion to throw out the case, so Zimmerman must be guilty. That's what Team Trayvon has been rolling with on Facebook and other sites. Never mind the fact that judges never grant a motion to dismiss after hearing half the case.

Plus judge wants the jury to take the heat from the AA community for acquittal. She doesn't want them turning up at her house demanding answers.

I can see where my mind is headed.... I took that as Alcoholics Anonymous.

/not caffinated enough this morning


Well, we *did* start drinking (or, rather, imbibing) in the boobies...
 
2013-07-08 09:58:53 AM

Mid_mo_mad_man: The only thing tragic is the railroading of Zimmerman. Martin is the one to blame for his death. His actions led to his own death.


yeah walking home from the store talking to a girl is illegal. he didn't have a right to defend himself from a stalker in the dark who never identified himself.
a man who's word we're supposed to take as gospel. a known liar with a violent past that should have made him ineligible to license a firearm. a hot head who lost his job as a bouncer because he had anger management and is a recovering alcoholic. who's story sounds like a Dirty Harry movie with the strained dialogue. Who was negligent in his watch captain's training and duties.
 
2013-07-08 09:59:11 AM

I_C_Weener: dittybopper: Popcorn Johnny: Why did this go from green to red? Farkers demand their GZ vs TM thread!!!!!

This.

Not saying you guys are scary, but you guys are scary.  Fark is more than just a Zimmerman trial clearinghouse .  For now, we have the trial threads though.  So, in order to keep them, please fasten your seatbelts, use etiquette suitable for a dinner party, and try not to upset the apple cart too much.

Got it?  Good.

Now, what have I missed in the trial this morning?  And who has the best feed?


Also, lets focus more on today's hearing than the over-arching theme of racial violence or gun rights, and lets not jump on the people just tuning in and thinking that the information they had in March 2012 is unchanged, mkay?  

Let's play nice.
 
2013-07-08 09:59:12 AM

I_C_Weener: dittybopper: Popcorn Johnny: Why did this go from green to red? Farkers demand their GZ vs TM thread!!!!!

This.

Not saying you guys are scary, but you guys are scary.  Fark is more than just a Zimmerman trial clearinghouse .  For now, we have the trial threads though.  So, in order to keep them, please fasten your seatbelts, use etiquette suitable for a dinner party, and try not to upset the apple cart too much.

Got it?  Good.

Now, what have I missed in the trial this morning?  And who has the best feed?


Hey, if you look at the breasts of this thread, you'll see I'm the one trying to inject a bit of class.
 
2013-07-08 09:59:16 AM

AeAe: nekom: LasersHurt:
Neither way is good, if you ask me. And you didn't. But I told you anyway.

No outcome is good.  A couple of knuckleheads collided and a young man died.  It's not murder, but it is a sad situation for all involved.

not murder.  manslaughter.


Yes it was, but political pressure made them seek a murder trail, so if acquitted for murder he walks.
 
2013-07-08 09:59:19 AM

QueenMamaBee: stellarossa: Popcorn Johnny: The judge didn't grant the defense motion to throw out the case, so Zimmerman must be guilty. That's what Team Trayvon has been rolling with on Facebook and other sites. Never mind the fact that judges never grant a motion to dismiss after hearing half the case.

Plus judge wants the jury to take the heat from the AA community for acquittal. She doesn't want them turning up at her house demanding answers.

I can see where my mind is headed.... I took that as Alcoholics Anonymous.

/not caffinated enough this morning


It looks like he'll walk. Maybe the judge will declare a mistrial, but I doubt it.

Honestly, this is a case of poor prosecution. Negligent homicide would have been easy to prove -his pursuit of Martin pretty much clinches that- but they got greedy and went straight for murder even though they couldn't prove malice aforethought. That wasn't a wise tactical decision, and they never really recovered from it.

And that, my friends, is the ultimate lesson to take away from cases like this: if you want any semblance of justice, the charge must stick, and you're not going to get a second chance at that. Go only for what you can prove. If this means using words that don't mesh so well with your definition of what happened, then so be it: save your words for outside the court.
 
2013-07-08 09:59:44 AM
I don't think GZ is guilty of manslaughter, but it might not be a bad idea if he was convicted of it and sent to prison for a few years. It would send a strong message to people that you really want to do everything possible to avoid violent confrontations with people. If he walks, I guarantee you see a lot more of these kind of incidents in the future.
 
2013-07-08 09:59:56 AM

ChaosStar: IdBeCrazyIf: ChaosStar: So you don't think he was defending himself?

He brazenly put himself in that situation which lead to the death of a person.through culpable negligence

Manslaughter

You didn't answer the question.


Justifiably to the level of force used?

No
 
2013-07-08 10:00:02 AM

limeyfellow: What I yet to see though is why stand your ground laws don't apply to Trayvon Martin.


Because he was the attacker. TA-DA!
 
2013-07-08 10:00:10 AM

doglover: Mid_mo_mad_man: Martin is the one to blame for his death.

While I don't feel any laws were broken and Martin earned his death, it's still a loss when a 17 year old kid is so farked up they need to be put down.

If society had a place for violent young thugs to get out of that life one step at a time, instead of just kicked out of regular people school, we might have caught him and people like him before shiat like this goes down. If Martin hadn't been suspended from school it would have been better for Zimmerman, better for Martin, better for everyone.

When citizens kill each other instead of helping expand prosperity, it's always a tragedy.




I firmly beleave his parents failed him. On the night of the shooting he was allowed to walk the streets even thou he was suspended for a drug incident. Dad didn't check up on him till morning. Wtf dad!
 
2013-07-08 10:01:55 AM

LasersHurt: "Will the jury likely acquit because he was the only survivor of stupid shiat?"


Because he is the only survivor and thus, tweaks his story, and other witnesses clarify that the dead guy was a bit of a racist.
 
2013-07-08 10:01:58 AM

LasersHurt: Nabb1: LasersHurt: The Muthaship: But, there's no evidence to support that conclusion.

There's also no evidence to support that he's an innocent man who was attacked and had to defend himself. It's just that he's the only one alive to tell his side.

He is entitled to a legal presumption of innocence.

Yes, and for the thirtieth time for the illiterates in the back, he'll likely be found innocent because there isn't enough to convict.


Which is probably because no laws were broken by Zimmerman.

There's lots of evidence, even witnesses. What there isn't is evidence of anything but self defense.
 
2013-07-08 10:03:01 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: ChaosStar: IdBeCrazyIf: ChaosStar: So you don't think he was defending himself?

He brazenly put himself in that situation which lead to the death of a person.through culpable negligence

Manslaughter

You didn't answer the question.

Justifiably to the level of force used?

No


See, you can't even answer the question without having to add things to it. That indicates deception.
Do you believe he defending himself, yes or no?
 
2013-07-08 10:03:22 AM

LasersHurt: The Muthaship: But, there's no evidence to support that conclusion.

There's also no evidence to support that he's an innocent man who was attacked and had to defend himself. It's just that he's the only one alive to tell his side.


Except the law doesn't require evidence that you are innocent.
 
2013-07-08 10:03:57 AM
dittybopper:
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.-
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force,

The way I read that, if he's acquitted by reason of self-defense, he's not liable, and can't be sued.


Sounds that way, but I've heard conflicting stories on that.  I've also heard that the SYG provision specifically does this, but of course this isn't a SYG case at all.
 
2013-07-08 10:04:30 AM

TenaciousP: How come no questions about the content of his CHL class?


His professor was on the stand (for the prosecution) and he gave testimony that the actual nickname "Stand your ground" was not used but that he did use the term "Castle Doctrine" instead when discussing self-defense laws.
 
2013-07-08 10:04:57 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: ChaosStar: So you don't think he was defending himself?

He brazenly put himself in that situation which lead to the death of a person.through culpable negligence

Manslaughter


Would a reasonable person expect to be assaulted violently for walking in the same direction as someone else? If the answer to that is yes, then you live in a sad world and you can argue manslaughter.  If the answer to that is no, then it's self-defense and not manslaughter.

 
Remember, the prosecution showed that Martin initiated the physical confrontation.
 
2013-07-08 10:05:35 AM
Something I haven't noticed before. On the 911 call with the screaming, does the dude in the background say "he's holding a gun" a bout 2-4 seconds before the shot?
 
2013-07-08 10:05:59 AM

Popcorn Johnny: I don't think GZ is guilty of manslaughter, but it might not be a bad idea if he was convicted of it and sent to prison for a few years. It would send a strong message to people that you really want to do everything possible to avoid violent confrontations with people. If he walks, I guarantee you see a lot more of these kind of incidents in the future.


I doubt it.  Who wants to be:

1. Put into the poorhouse by defense costs (GZ got donations, but would you?)
2. Be essentially unemployable for years, if it's a public trial.
3. Always have to look over your shoulder.
4. Worry, in some states, about permanently being beholden to the family of the person you shot, because they sued your ass and won, even though you were acquitted in criminal court.

Besides which, according to a new report by the CDC, it's already quite common to legally defend yourself with a firearm.
 
2013-07-08 10:06:06 AM

dittybopper: The Muthaship: I listened to the testimony on satellite radio as I drove to Chicago Friday.  Jesus, Dr, Bao is a moron!

Great Scott!


What??!!
 
2013-07-08 10:07:10 AM

limeyfellow: Zimmerman admitted to following the guy in a car for a number of blocks,


The entire distance from the place where the truck was parked to Brandy Green's house is less than one block.
 
2013-07-08 10:07:13 AM
Mr. Eugenides:
Remember, the prosecution showed that Martin initiated the physical confrontation.

Well, it's more that they couldn't prove that Zimmerman did.  Martin PROBABLY did, we'll never know for sure, but there's certainly copious amounts of reasonable doubt, which means advantage: defense.
 
2013-07-08 10:08:18 AM

gregscott: dittybopper: The Muthaship: I listened to the testimony on satellite radio as I drove to Chicago Friday.  Jesus, Dr, Bao is a moron!

Great Scott!

What??!!


Korean Penis.
 
2013-07-08 10:09:13 AM

limeyfellow: AeAe: nekom: LasersHurt:
Neither way is good, if you ask me. And you didn't. But I told you anyway.

No outcome is good.  A couple of knuckleheads collided and a young man died.  It's not murder, but it is a sad situation for all involved.

not murder.  manslaughter.

What I yet to see though is why stand your ground laws don't apply to Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman admitted to following the guy in a car for a number of blocks, then when he sees an appropiate time he jumps out and goes after the kid with no sort of announcement of intent, he enters the personal space of Trayvon Martin to confront himself. If Martin had been older and shot Zimmerman and survive the case would have been thrown out as self defense, especially with the phone calls that Zimmerman made that he is after the kid.

Isn't that what stand your ground laws are about. If you fear for your life you have the right to fight back with all weapons at your disposal?


Zimmerman claims that Trayvon Martin was banging his head against the cement and reaching for the gun when he shot Martin.  Therefore Zimmerman had no real option to retreat at the time of the gunshot, and it's ordinary self-defense.  Stand your Ground would have applied if Trayvon were slowly advancing towards him, Zimmerman had time to run or pull out his gun, and decided that the gun was the better choice.  In short, Stand your Ground is about when you don't fear for your life, but instead fear for your property.  In practice, of course, people who actually fear for their life at the time (but in retrospect could probably have gotten away) may use the Stand your Ground defense.
 
2013-07-08 10:09:17 AM
What people do not seem to be able to comprehend is nothing prior to the concrete being used and/or Martin reaching for the gun matters.
None of it. At all. Period.
Doesn't matter if GZ chased Martin calling him every racial slur in the book.
Doesn't matter if GZ threw the first punch or Martin did.

As soon as lethal force was used, or attempted to be used again GZ, he was within his rights as someone afraid for his life to use his ccw.
The concrete is a deadly weapon, and was used.
Reaching for GZ's gun was lethal force attempting to be utilized.

This completely nullifies not only a murder charge but a manslaughter or any other homicide charge.
Not my opinion, that's the law.
 
2013-07-08 10:10:23 AM

Popcorn Johnny: I don't think GZ is guilty of manslaughter, but it might not be a bad idea if he was convicted of it and sent to prison for a few years. It would send a strong message to people that you really want to do everything possible to avoid violent confrontations with people. If he walks, I guarantee you see a lot more of these kind of incidents in the future.


It sounds like you are suggesting we become a nation of cowards.  I fully expect people charged with monitoring my community, be they cops or neighborhood watch, investigate suspicious behavior.  999,999 times out of a million, nothing horrible comes of it, but sometimes it does.   Such is life.  We all meet our fate one way or another and some of us will die in violent confrontations.
 
2013-07-08 10:11:24 AM

nekom: dittybopper:
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.-
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force,

The way I read that, if he's acquitted by reason of self-defense, he's not liable, and can't be sued.

Sounds that way, but I've heard conflicting stories on that.  I've also heard that the SYG provision specifically does this, but of course this isn't a SYG case at all.


It's not a SYG "provision", this immunity to civil action is granted to anyone justifiably using the self defense statute.
 
2013-07-08 10:11:59 AM

Hobodeluxe: Mid_mo_mad_man: The only thing tragic is the railroading of Zimmerman. Martin is the one to blame for his death. His actions led to his own death.

yeah walking home from the store talking to a girl is illegal. he didn't have a right to defend himself from a stalker in the dark who never identified himself.
a man who's word we're supposed to take as gospel. a known liar with a violent past that should have made him ineligible to license a firearm. a hot head who lost his job as a bouncer because he had anger management and is a recovering alcoholic. who's story sounds like a Dirty Harry movie with the strained dialogue. Who was negligent in his watch captain's training and duties.




Following does not equal stalking nor is an aggressive act or even illegal. The girl he was talking plus a neighbor make it clear that Martin was an angry bigot that wanted to beat the cracker following him. And we all know of Martins past violent acts. This case shouldn't have came to trail
 
2013-07-08 10:12:14 AM

ChaosStar: See, you can't even answer the question without having to add things to it. That indicates deception.
Do you believe he defending himself, yes or no?


Because we are getting in legalese territory which always requires things being added. And I did answer the question, no he was not defending himself to the physical level the event elevated to.

Don't like the answer, go punch a lawyer in the face.

Mr. Eugenides: Would a reasonable person expect to be assaulted violently for walking in the same direction as someone else? If the answer to that is yes, then you live in a sad world and you can argue manslaughter. If the answer to that is no, then it's self-defense and not manslaughter.

Remember, the prosecution showed that Martin initiated the physical confrontation.


Would a reasonable person initiate contact with someone they felt threaten by who had been following them? Key point here is that Travon initiated contact because he reasonably felt threaten, contact escalated to where Zimmerman shot defending himself......HOWEVER

Had Zimmerman not initiated contact then the event would have never occurred, ergo he knowingly placed himself in that situation negligently and knowingly carrying an instrument that could result in death.

And yes, it could be argued that he was truly defending himself from what he thought was a life threatening situation, all I am arguing is that the prosecution were farking morons for attaching murder 2 to this when they could have almost assuredly slam dunked this as manslaughter.
 
2013-07-08 10:12:38 AM

Popcorn Johnny: Why did this go from green to red? Farkers demand their GZ vs TM thread!!!!!


These threads are great.

Go to one thread for your daily gun control, death penalty, racism, anti cops  comments all in one

One thread to rule them all.

the only think missing is abortion.
 
2013-07-08 10:13:06 AM
This guy reminds me of the guy from hot tub time machine
 
2013-07-08 10:13:27 AM

ChaosStar: What people do not seem to be able to comprehend is nothing prior to the concrete being used and/or Martin reaching for the gun matters.
None of it. At all. Period.
Doesn't matter if GZ chased Martin calling him every racial slur in the book.
Doesn't matter if GZ threw the first punch or Martin did.

As soon as lethal force was used, or attempted to be used again GZ, he was within his rights as someone afraid for his life to use his ccw.
The concrete is a deadly weapon, and was used.
Reaching for GZ's gun was lethal force attempting to be utilized.

This completely nullifies not only a murder charge but a manslaughter or any other homicide charge.
Not my opinion, that's the law.


Zimmerman playing Paul Blart is, was and always will be the problem. Without that asshattery a person isn't dead and another on trial. Farking dumbass.
 
2013-07-08 10:13:42 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: ChaosStar: See, you can't even answer the question without having to add things to it. That indicates deception.
Do you believe he defending himself, yes or no?

Because we are getting in legalese territory which always requires things being added. And I did answer the question, no he was not defending himself to the physical level the event elevated to.


No, we're really not. There is no legalese.
So you don't think GZ had his head smacked into the concrete?
 
2013-07-08 10:14:40 AM
DLR is a rube.
 
2013-07-08 10:14:51 AM
Is there a person that does not get the rationale of having a bullet in the chamber?
 
2013-07-08 10:15:22 AM
Prosecution not doing a great job with Geroge's friend.
 
2013-07-08 10:15:23 AM
ChaosStar:
It's not a SYG "provision", this immunity to civil action is granted to anyone justifiably using the self defense statute.

So that's part of the general self defense statute and not specific to SYG?  I guess he'll be protected from litigation then.  Still what a mess.  This is a teachable moment here, don't go out looking for trouble, even if it's legal it's going to wreck your life.
 
2013-07-08 10:15:55 AM

Bauer: i hope that zimmerman gets the maximum sentence.

if he wasn't such a wannabe cop...this wouldn't have happened.

i blame florida, too.

what a bunch of maroons.


And the maximum sentence for being innocent is?
 
2013-07-08 10:15:58 AM

WillofJ2: Is there a person that does not get the rationale of having a bullet in the chamber?


It's all "for show"
 
2013-07-08 10:16:50 AM
I want to hear "Well, if the targets at the range were pinning him down, it would be a lot easier to hit them. I'm not certain that being beaten by the target would make it easier or more difficult."
 
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