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(CNN)   777 pilot had almost no experience flying that kind of jet. Farkers have logged more hours flying in Microsoft Flight Simulator than this guy   (cnn.com) divider line 384
    More: Dumbass, San Francisco General Hospital, Amateur video, flight data recorders, cockpit voice recorders, Microsoft Flight Simulator  
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7743 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jul 2013 at 8:40 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-08 08:09:53 AM
Subby can't read.
 
2013-07-08 08:17:33 AM
I wonder when or if the pilots were told the glide slope system was off.
 
2013-07-08 08:23:59 AM

Speaker2Animals: I wonder when or if the pilots were told the glide slope system was off.


That may be a factor, but it's no excuse.  That's part of navigate, which is second on the list or priorities.

/aviate, navigate, communicate
//fly the farking plane
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-07-08 08:25:57 AM

Speaker2Animals: I wonder when or if the pilots were told the glide slope system was off.


I think they would have noticed.
 
2013-07-08 08:26:40 AM
Well, 43 hours isn't "No experience" and the many thousands of flight hours he's had on other craft probably count for something.  Still:

"It's an entirely different kind of flying.  Altogether."
img51.imageshack.us
 
2013-07-08 08:28:48 AM

Ennuipoet: "It's an entirely different kind of flying.  Altogether."
[img51.imageshack.us image 640x480]


It's an entirely different kind of flying.
 
2013-07-08 08:41:26 AM

Ennuipoet: "It's an entirely different kind of flying. Altogether."


It's an entirely different kind of flying
 
2013-07-08 08:43:10 AM

nekom: Speaker2Animals: I wonder when or if the pilots were told the glide slope system was off.

That may be a factor, but it's no excuse.  That's part of navigate, which is second on the list or priorities.

/aviate, navigate, communicate
//fly the farking plane


There is also the possibility of the plane being overloaded and being ass heavy
 
2013-07-08 08:44:46 AM
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-07-08 08:46:02 AM

Speaker2Animals: I wonder when or if the pilots were told the glide slope system was off.



 The system had been off for days/weeks and hundreds of flights had landed without incident.

The pilots had about 20 alternative ways to navigate.
 
2013-07-08 08:47:02 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: nekom: Speaker2Animals: I wonder when or if the pilots were told the glide slope system was off.

That may be a factor, but it's no excuse.  That's part of navigate, which is second on the list or priorities.

/aviate, navigate, communicate
//fly the farking plane

There is also the possibility of the plane being overloaded and being ass heavy


Not likely on the pax 777.
 
2013-07-08 08:48:20 AM
crab66:
The pilots had about 20 alternative ways to navigate.

Not to mention pretty much ideal weather.  There's no excuse for this, it's becoming clear that this is pilot error.
 
2013-07-08 08:49:40 AM
IdBeCrazyIf:

There is also the possibility of the plane being overloaded and being ass heavy

Seems unlikely at the end of a long flight when most of the fuel is burned off.  But perhaps there was a shift of some heavy cargo...
 
2013-07-08 08:49:41 AM

nekom: Not to mention pretty much ideal weather. There's no excuse for this, it's becoming clear that this is pilot error  TERRORISM.

 
2013-07-08 08:52:06 AM
The ILS wasn't functioning, either.

/Lee Kang-gook.
//Lee Kang-gook.
///Lee Kang-gook.
 
2013-07-08 08:52:08 AM
I for one am astonished on how well that aircraft held up during the crash.  It was well built.

/that's all I've got for now
 
2013-07-08 08:52:58 AM
Obviously differences must exist between one large plane and another, but is there really that big of a difference between large commercial aircraft. I would assumed the answer was no, but apparently I would be wrong. Any educated farker able to weigh in on why aircraft-specific training would be an issue.
 
2013-07-08 08:53:36 AM
what happens when they reach 797.  then what, the boeinig 808 state??
 
2013-07-08 08:53:57 AM

nekom: it's becoming clear that this is pilot error.


What needs to be asked is WTF the dudes trainer was doing while his trainee was attempting a belly flop into the water?
 
2013-07-08 08:54:20 AM

nekom: crab66:
The pilots had about 20 alternative ways to navigate.

Not to mention pretty much ideal weather.  There's no excuse for this, it's becoming clear that this is pilot error.


the plane stalled.  Yes, pilot error is the most likely reason, but mechanical failures can cause that, too.  As the NTSB investigator said: it's why we have an investigation.
 
2013-07-08 08:54:45 AM
That's a weak excuse. You can't become experienced without actually logging hours.

/if you know what I mean
//and I think that you do
 
2013-07-08 08:55:03 AM
Something tells me SUBBY has logged extensive hours as a CNN mouthpiece.
 
2013-07-08 08:55:28 AM

nekom: crab66:
The pilots had about 20 alternative ways to navigate.

Not to mention pretty much ideal weather.  There's no excuse for this, it's becoming clear that this is pilot error.


And landing at sea level in moderate temperatures which means no Air Density problems.

/I guess the Air Speed Indicator could have been significantly off but yeah sounds a lot like pilot error.
 
2013-07-08 08:56:03 AM
Can the 777 land itself? Or does it have to be something newer like the A380?
 
2013-07-08 08:56:20 AM
reillan:
the plane stalled.  Yes, pilot error is the most likely reason, but mechanical failures can cause that, too.  As the NTSB investigator said: it's why we have an investigation.

Of course.  My initial guess as to what happened was completely wrong, so my new guess may be as well.  The NTSB knows what they're doing, and they have plenty to work with.  I have no doubt they'll find out pretty conclusively what happened.
 
2013-07-08 08:56:26 AM

Speaker2Animals: I wonder when or if the pilots were told the glide slope system was off.


Just to add on to what others are saying, it's not even uncommon for this to be the case at airports of any size. Smaller airports may let the glide slope go out of service and pilots can either fly the localizer-only approach or a GPS approach. Larger airports will just use their parallel runways if they need a full ILS approach.

To answer your question more specifically, the pilots absolutely should have been aware from their preflight briefings, regardless of the source. Then, since they were cleared for the visual (I assume) they would not have been told again by any controllers, but should have noticed that the instrument wasn't working (there'd be a flag indicating as much on a smaller plane and probably 100 different warnings on a 777).

Regardless, something else happened. The pilots either just straight-up misjudged the approach and didn't get away with it because of the seawall, or weren't familiar with the 777, or God knows what else. I won't even discount the possibility of some kind of mechanical or instrumentation failure contributing, simply to avoid pinning this on the pilot before we really know all the facts.
 
2013-07-08 08:56:46 AM
He only had 40-something hours experience with this plane and this was his first SFO landing.

PYROT ERRAH.

SUPPLIES!
 
2013-07-08 08:56:57 AM

Endive Wombat: I for one am astonished on how well that aircraft held up during the crash.  It was well built.

/that's all I've got for now


came here to say this.

/expected a wing to break off and cartwheels o fun on this one.
 
2013-07-08 08:57:51 AM
TERRAIN. TERRAIN. PULL UP.
 
2013-07-08 08:58:03 AM

Jon iz teh kewl: what happens when they reach 797.  then what, the boeinig 808 state??


Nope 808 is taken

upload.wikimedia.org

It makes the Girlies get Dumb
 
2013-07-08 08:58:41 AM
I wonder how much CNN paid this guy for exclusive rights to the crash video. He just hit the lottery I'm sure. Without this kind of thing, no one would give a fark about CNN.
 
2013-07-08 08:58:59 AM
The pilot had only a few hours in the 777, but thousands of hours in other big planes. Additionally, the copilot had thousands of hours in the 777. As someone in the article said, professionals have to train, too. It seems likely that there was some kind of breakdown in crew performance, but I don't think it is as simple as "he didn't have enough seat time".

I will admit that I do not know what the normal method of pilot training at big airlines is. Maybe someone who is a professional pilot for a large airline can tell us?
 
2013-07-08 08:59:19 AM

HotIgneous Intruder: The ILS wasn't functioning, either.

/Lee Kang-gook.
//Lee Kang-gook.
///Lee Kang-gook.


Damn, guy is a racist against himself. Paging Dr. Chapelle...
 
2013-07-08 09:00:39 AM
The pilot probably had at least a month of classroom and simulator training before actually flying the 777.  Everyone has to start somewhere.
 
2013-07-08 09:01:22 AM

Speaker2Animals: I wonder when or if the pilots were told the glide slope system was off.


That's been a published NOTAM (notice to airmen) for a long time and should have been part of the preflight briefing package from dispatch. They shut it down because the landing threshold was newly displaced and the glideslope antenna was not. To keep it active would require physical relocation of the ant and recertification (costly and time-consuming, just to move it back in a few months). There were plenty of alternatives and there isn't an airline transport pilot out there that shouldn't have been able to make a visual landing without external glideslope indication.

Article may be confusing the two Misters Lee. At least I hope the guy in the left seat wasn't the one with 43 hours in type. Yeesh. That could explain why the pilot not flying in the right seat wasn't saying anything.

As I said in the old thread, featureless water right up to the threshold creates interesting visual illusions and may be a factor in why the approach was too high and the resulting energy management problem. It wouldn't surprise me to see a "special crewman qualification needed" regulation pop up at KSFO in the wake of this.
 
2013-07-08 09:01:29 AM
This is a weird accident. Didn't the pilot in command have something like 10,000 hours in the 737? How did he make a mistake that even someone who spent a few hours flying a 777 in MSFS would have recognized?
 
2013-07-08 09:02:06 AM

pho75: Obviously differences must exist between one large plane and another, but is there really that big of a difference between large commercial aircraft. I would assumed the answer was no, but apparently I would be wrong. Any educated farker able to weigh in on why aircraft-specific training would be an issue.


Systems.

Not sure what other aircraft models he has flown, but the 777 has much more capable (read: needs very specific training on how to use) systems than Boeings earlier aircraft.

I wouldn't be surprised if the autothrottles were improperly set if they were trying to use them. From what I understand, the AR system on the 777 is much different than the 747, particularly the classics.
 
2013-07-08 09:02:09 AM

Jon iz teh kewl: what happens when they reach 797.  then what, the boeinig 808 state??


they'll move from analog to digital numbering

/that or they'll go with the 909, an altogether better alternative to the 808, or most other drum machiens/ sequencers of the time.
 
2013-07-08 09:02:35 AM

reillan: nekom: crab66:
The pilots had about 20 alternative ways to navigate.

Not to mention pretty much ideal weather.  There's no excuse for this, it's becoming clear that this is pilot error.

the plane stalled.  Yes, pilot error is the most likely reason, but mechanical failures can cause that, too.  As the NTSB investigator said: it's why we have an investigation.


FTA: "The plane's voice and flight data recorders show that the flight from South Korea was coming in too slow and too low and that the pilots appear to have increased speed seven seconds before impact, Deborah Hersman said. A stall warning sounded four seconds before the crash..."

It doesn't sound like it stalled, but that they came in way too low and slow to the point where a stall warning sounded. Seems like pure pilot error to me.
 
2013-07-08 09:04:39 AM
www.rareelectricguitar.com
What an experienced 777 pilot may look like.
 
2013-07-08 09:05:28 AM

LockeOak: That's a weak excuse. You can't become experienced without actually logging hours.

/if you know what I mean
//and I think that you do


Yeah it's like all the guys who want their girls to be experienced but without logging the hours.
 
2013-07-08 09:05:51 AM

Mad Scientist: Seems unlikely at the end of a long flight when most of the fuel is burned off. But perhaps there was a shift of some heavy cargo...


Also a possibility and more likely IMHO that they were coming in slow, head wind comes into slowing the plane to near stall speeds, drop of altitude and the pilot with lack of experience doesn't correct in time.

Couple that with perhaps wrongly loaded cargo......

Because by all accounts so far, it appears the fly by wire was working exactly as intended.
 
2013-07-08 09:06:45 AM

Charlie Freak: Speaker2Animals: I wonder when or if the pilots were told the glide slope system was off.

That's been a published NOTAM (notice to airmen) for a long time and should have been part of the preflight briefing package from dispatch. They shut it down because the landing threshold was newly displaced and the glideslope antenna was not. To keep it active would require physical relocation of the ant and recertification (costly and time-consuming, just to move it back in a few months). There were plenty of alternatives and there isn't an airline transport pilot out there that shouldn't have been able to make a visual landing without external glideslope indication.

Article may be confusing the two Misters Lee. At least I hope the guy in the left seat wasn't the one with 43 hours in type. Yeesh. That could explain why the pilot not flying in the right seat wasn't saying anything.

As I said in the old thread, featureless water right up to the threshold creates interesting visual illusions and may be a factor in why the approach was too high and the resulting energy management problem. It wouldn't surprise me to see a "special crewman qualification needed" regulation pop up at KSFO in the wake of this.


For clarification, the 28L threshold was recently displaced to comply with FAA AC150/5300-13A in regards to having a 600 ft. RSA prior to the landing threshold. It won't be moving back... The glide slope antenna will be moved in the next few months to coincide with the new threshold.
 
2013-07-08 09:06:54 AM
rack.3.mshcdn.com

Looking at this, he was coming in steep the whole time, but seemed to level off.. something happened at the last few moments that made the plane drop like a rock
 
2013-07-08 09:07:04 AM

tungub: I will admit that I do not know what the normal method of pilot training at big airlines is.


The very first time the pilot actually flies the real plane, there are paying passengers in the back. All the training is done in the sim. Depending on where you are in the planet, the rules vary, but generally until you have X hours in the aircraft (more than 43, for sure) there are experience requirements for the other pilot, so that the cumulative experience on type meets a certain threshold.

It doesn't look good that a guy with less than 50 hours on type planted it into the seawall at San Fransisco, but it's certainly not abnormal that somebody with that little time was flying; everybody starts at 0 hours sometime.

/professional pilot, not at a large airline

destrip: Can the 777 land itself? Or does it have to be something newer like the A380?


The ability of aircraft to land themselves is pretty much always overstated, but yes, on the right runway, at the right airport, with the right equipment in service, with the right crew and with all the appropriate paperwork filed away safely, yes, a 777 can autoland.
 
2013-07-08 09:07:07 AM

poot_rootbeer: [www.rareelectricguitar.com image 536x691]
What an experienced 777 pilot may look like.


t0.gstatic.com
 
2013-07-08 09:08:23 AM
So this Pilot was used to a 737, so my question is...what is the landing speed of a 737 vs a 777?  Could this whole thing be explained by a simple "brain fart"..."Sorry, I had it in my mind that for the last 30 seconds of flight I was in a 737, hence my super slow approach..."
 
2013-07-08 09:10:37 AM

joness0154: Charlie Freak: Speaker2Animals: I wonder when or if the pilots were told the glide slope system was off.

That's been a published NOTAM (notice to airmen) for a long time and should have been part of the preflight briefing package from dispatch. They shut it down because the landing threshold was newly displaced and the glideslope antenna was not. To keep it active would require physical relocation of the ant and recertification (costly and time-consuming, just to move it back in a few months). There were plenty of alternatives and there isn't an airline transport pilot out there that shouldn't have been able to make a visual landing without external glideslope indication.

Article may be confusing the two Misters Lee. At least I hope the guy in the left seat wasn't the one with 43 hours in type. Yeesh. That could explain why the pilot not flying in the right seat wasn't saying anything.

As I said in the old thread, featureless water right up to the threshold creates interesting visual illusions and may be a factor in why the approach was too high and the resulting energy management problem. It wouldn't surprise me to see a "special crewman qualification needed" regulation pop up at KSFO in the wake of this.

For clarification, the 28L threshold was recently displaced to comply with FAA AC150/5300-13A in regards to having a 600 ft. RSA prior to the landing threshold. It won't be moving back... The glide slope antenna will be moved in the next few months to coincide with the new threshold.


Ok, thanks.

Also, apparently the PNF in the right seat was a training captain. He is going to be shouldered with a lot of the responsibility on this one.
 
2013-07-08 09:11:14 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: Mad Scientist: Seems unlikely at the end of a long flight when most of the fuel is burned off. But perhaps there was a shift of some heavy cargo...

Also a possibility and more likely IMHO that they were coming in slow, head wind comes into slowing the plane to near stall speeds, drop of altitude and the pilot with lack of experience doesn't correct in time.

Couple that with perhaps wrongly loaded cargo......

Because by all accounts so far, it appears the fly by wire was working exactly as intended.


A sudden increase in headwind won't bring an aircraft closer to a stall. In fact it will do the opposite.

Regardless, an approach at 1.3Vs adds plenty of margin for changes in wind other than windshear.

This accident was pilot error, pure and simple. Not surprising when 95% of aviation accidents are human factors/pilot error related.
 
2013-07-08 09:13:16 AM

Endive Wombat: So this Pilot was used to a 737, so my question is...what is the landing speed of a 737 vs a 777?  Could this whole thing be explained by a simple "brain fart"..."Sorry, I had it in my mind that for the last 30 seconds of flight I was in a 737, hence my super slow approach..."


Possibly, landing speed for a 737 ranges between 110 to 150 depending on load, but NTSB said the plane was well below 137 knots which even if you try to account for a brain fart is outside the range of what he was used to. Besides, typically most of these flights anymore are just fly by wire, including the landing. Sorta set it and forget it Ronco style, the pilot just shadows the computer making sure everything is ok.
 
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