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(USA Today)   Criminals don't care about gun laws   (usatoday.com) divider line 453
    More: Obvious, camden, New Jersey, gun laws, Camden County, Second Amendment Foundation, gun regulation, America's Most Wanted, firearms dealer  
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8137 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jul 2013 at 9:27 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-08 09:44:30 AM  
More people are killed by drunk drivers every year than are killed by guns. I don't see anyone banning cars or trucks. The farking politicians are quick to jump on their soapbox, screaming about gun control, and banning this or that magazine, gun, or attachment. Blaming the farking tool the guy used is moranic. The gun didn't go on a rampage and murder people, the person did. There have been cases where a drunk has killed multiple people with his car, and i have yet to see any car bans. How can you justify taking a gun away, when cars kill more than guns do? Ah, because a car is NEEDED. We don't need guns to protect ourselves. I'm sure if criminals who totally respect gun laws knew that we had none, they would totally not take advantage of that for profit. Hell, they would probably be happy to hand them over and never touch one again. Let's make a law that everyone has to hand in their firearms, and see how that works out.
 
2013-07-08 09:45:08 AM  
I always hear about those damned lax gun laws. What they don't say is; it would be illegal to sell a New Jersy resident a pistol in Pennsylvania and Pennsylvania would have to abide by the rules in New Jersy if they wished to sell a rifle to a New Jersey resident. If I remember right; it's part of the interstate commerce thingy.

That leads me to the conclude one of two things; either there is 1) a source outside of all legal channels (read robbery) or 2) there is a epidemic of straw buys
 
2013-07-08 09:45:59 AM  

OnlyM3: MFAWG
2013-07-08 09:30:47 AM


Great Janitor: Gun laws don't make me any safer. They just make it harder for me to defend myself.

Because that's what you do, walk around terrified of everything. That must suck.Straw man
You only wear a seat belt because you plan on running down preschoolers and are terrified you'll get hurt when doing so, right?


Cars are used for the sole purpose of lethal defense by the average car owner?
 
2013-07-08 09:46:43 AM  

the_foo: monoski: "But no law stopped him from becoming a teenage drug dealer who could easily acquire, and use, his weapon of choice "

So do we stop passing drug laws too since they don't seem to care about them either?

Not a very good example for you to pick since the drug war has been an utter failure. Legalizing and redirecting the enforcement money into treatment programs is what a smart country would do.


Honestly, it was more of a troll than my opinion. I feel most of our approach to both problems have been more knee-jerk, ill-conceived reactions.
 
2013-07-08 09:46:45 AM  

Bit'O'Gristle: Let's make a law that everyone has to hand in their firearms, and see how that works out.


Because that's exactly what's going on...
 
2013-07-08 09:46:50 AM  

hailin: Ah I think I just realized why this crap happens. In the article, the kid said he saw his cousins go to prison and when they got out they were surrounded by girls. So we just need to teach women to respect themselves and not date sleezeballs who have been to prison. If they don't get girls then it won't be "cool" to be a criminal.

Not saying it is a realistic solution, but better than restrictive gun laws that protect no one.


Well, young girls are generally attracted to "bad boys" and are only interested in the nice guys after they don't want to have sex anymore and are ragged out from the 100 longhairs they have allowed to root around inside them.

/amidoingitright?
 
2013-07-08 09:48:03 AM  

dittybopper: vpb: Well, that's what prisons are for.

Bank robbers don't care about laws either, that doesn't mean that we don't need laws against robbing banks.

Laws against committing a violent act are fine.  That's not what you want, though:  You want laws against the possession of inanimate objects, which is something completely different.

Nice job trying to conflate the two, though.  I'm sure you'll get the usual group of useful idiots to agree with you.


Correct.  Now, where can I get my hands on a functional howitzer and rounds of ammo.  For home defense of course.  It's just an inanimate object so I should totally be allowed to have one.

/or as many as I choose for that matter.
 
2013-07-08 09:48:37 AM  

Bit'O'Gristle: hailin: Ah I think I just realized why this crap happens. In the article, the kid said he saw his cousins go to prison and when they got out they were surrounded by girls. So we just need to teach women to respect themselves and not date sleezeballs who have been to prison. If they don't get girls then it won't be "cool" to be a criminal.

Not saying it is a realistic solution, but better than restrictive gun laws that protect no one.

Well, young girls are generally attracted to "bad boys" and are only interested in the nice guys after they don't want to have sex anymore and are ragged out from the 100 longhairs they have allowed to root around inside them.

/amidoingitright?


I guess, you're getting a couple bites.
 
2013-07-08 09:49:18 AM  

CapeFearCadaver: Bit'O'Gristle: Let's make a law that everyone has to hand in their firearms, and see how that works out.

Because that's exactly what's going on...


You are correct. The notion that any elected official would even desire to say "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in" is preposterous.
 
2013-07-08 09:49:41 AM  

Dimensio: StaleCoffee: Yeah great, compare a wealthy suburban school massacre perpetrated by a lunatic who stole his weapons from a "responsible" gun owner with a long term crime riddled ghetto steeped in poverty and a lack of education, because they share the same problems and should look at similar solutions.

Your criticism is appropriate. Gun ban advocacy groups recognize the difference, which is why they differentiate between such incidents rather than grouping all deaths resulting from firearm use, regardless of context and including all suicides, as "gun deaths" and advocating unreasonable restrictions based upon that single figure.


It would be nice if people differentiated gun control and regulation from gun bans, too.
 
2013-07-08 09:50:06 AM  

iserlohn: Selective gun laws in localities don't work? Well hello captain obvious.

To make gun laws work, it has to be done nationally unless you have the power to search everybody and everything coming in and out of your locality. Gun regulation is a national problem - like it is in other countries.


Spoiler: Its an international problem and national laws will fail.
 People buy guns because they want them, not because the government allows it.  Where you have crime and a society that idolizes murderers, you will have violence and that violence will include firearms or any weapon available.

Putting technology back in Pandora's box isn't a solution.

In the US if you set aside suicides (in countries with strict gun laws people hang themselves or jump off ledges at equally high rates) and drug related crimes (a black market we've made particularly profitable), you end up with a murder rate that's not much different from the rest of the world.

The solution, for us, is dealing with the drug war and wealth inequity.
No international arm twisting or magic arms ban needed.  We just have to face reality and make an honest attempt to fix our problems.
 
2013-07-08 09:50:13 AM  

CapeFearCadaver: Bit'O'Gristle: Let's make a law that everyone has to hand in their firearms, and see how that works out.

Because that's exactly what's going on...


But it WILL happen.... boogity boogity!
 
2013-07-08 09:51:17 AM  

jehovahs witness protection: Look how well the work in Chicago.


Indeed, how well the work
 
2013-07-08 09:52:45 AM  
So it looks like there's 2, maybe 3 separate issues.
1) People with dangerous mental illnesses obtaining weapons - Why not force prospective buyers to pass a recent mental health screen before purchasing?
2) Violence related to poverty - More generous social programs and education funding.
3) Suicide - Temporary firearm bans and confiscation?
 
2013-07-08 09:53:37 AM  
Or we need to find some way to counteract the current culture of "violence is the solution to all problems."  Kids in your yard?  Shoot them.  Guy cut you off in traffic?  Shoot him.  Caught your girlfriend cheating?  Shoot them.  Feeling depressed?  Shoot a bunch of people, then yourself.

I don't advocate gun control because it's trying to fix a symptom rather than the problem, but the number of people who shout "You can't take my guns otherwise I won't be able to _____" is indicative of the bigger cultural problem of dependency on violent solutions.
 
2013-07-08 09:54:39 AM  

chuggernaught: Correct. Now, where can I get my hands on a functional howitzer and rounds of ammo. For home defense of course. It's just an inanimate object so I should totally be allowed to have one.

/or as many as I choose for that matter.


Congratulations on giving Ditty another chance to show off his cannon.

/We can have more artillery regulation once someone actually uses a field piece in a crime.
 
2013-07-08 09:54:46 AM  

OnlyM3: MFAWG
2013-07-08 09:30:47 AM


Great Janitor: Gun laws don't make me any safer. They just make it harder for me to defend myself.

Because that's what you do, walk around terrified of everything. That must suck.Straw man
You only wear a seat belt because you plan on running down preschoolers and are terrified you'll get hurt when doing so, right?


The difference is unless you live in a dangerous area the chances of you needing a gun are less than needing a helmet in case you trip and hit your head. I propose anyone who thinks they need to be carrying at all times should also be wearing a helmet and some kind of utility built equipped with first aid and a fire extinguisher.
 
2013-07-08 09:55:17 AM  

John Buck 41: 4+ week old article. Nice going, everyone involved.


Has anything changed in the past 4 weeks re gun laws or American culture as it relates to violence?
 
2013-07-08 09:56:00 AM  

MFAWG: Great Janitor: Gun laws don't make me any safer.  They just make it harder for me to defend myself.

Because that's what you do, walk around terrified of everything. That must suck.


It's not because I'm terrified of everything.  It's because I know that there are bad guys out there who carry guns.  There are people who there who don't give a shiat about anyone but themselves, and use guns as tools to take what doesn't belong to them.  These people don't give a damn about gun laws.  Hell, they probably support any gun law that makes it difficult for those to obey the laws to defend themselves.
 
2013-07-08 09:56:03 AM  

browntimmy: OnlyM3: MFAWG
2013-07-08 09:30:47 AM


Great Janitor: Gun laws don't make me any safer. They just make it harder for me to defend myself.

Because that's what you do, walk around terrified of everything. That must suck.Straw man
You only wear a seat belt because you plan on running down preschoolers and are terrified you'll get hurt when doing so, right?

The difference is unless you live in a dangerous area the chances of you needing a gun are less than needing a helmet in case you trip and hit your head. I propose anyone who thinks they need to be carrying at all times should also be wearing a helmet and some kind of utility built equipped with first aid and a fire extinguisher.


that should be "utility belt"
 
2013-07-08 09:56:59 AM  

Dimensio: StaleCoffee: Yeah great, compare a wealthy suburban school massacre perpetrated by a lunatic who stole his weapons from a "responsible" gun owner with a long term crime riddled ghetto steeped in poverty and a lack of education, because they share the same problems and should look at similar solutions.

Your criticism is appropriate. Gun ban advocacy groups recognize the difference, which is why they differentiate between such incidents rather than grouping all deaths resulting from firearm use, regardless of context and including all suicides, as "gun deaths" and advocating unreasonable restrictions based upon that single figure.


Well done!

/I saw what you did there
 
2013-07-08 09:57:38 AM  

StaleCoffee


It would be nice if people differentiated gun control and regulation from gun bans, too.


That would be nice, but these discussions seem to devolve into two polar opposite positions:

1) All guns for everyone all the time, with no regulation or administrative control like background checks.

2) No guns for anyone ever.

There is middle ground but hardly anyone wants to look at it.
 
2013-07-08 09:57:47 AM  

dletter: CapeFearCadaver: Bit'O'Gristle: Let's make a law that everyone has to hand in their firearms, and see how that works out.

Because that's exactly what's going on...

But it WILL happen.... boogity boogity!


That's why I don't like registration; it's just too easily abused. If I remember correctly; we had an article on fark that made that point extreamly well. Basically; a town started a "Pit Bull registry", for the children. Before they were done; they sent police officers to confiscate said dogs from the owners that had registered them.
 
2013-07-08 09:58:22 AM  

thecpt: Bit'O'Gristle: It always makes me laugh that they ban this gun or that gun, or make it 20 times harder for a law abiding person who has common sense to get a good weapon for either self defense, hunting, or target shooting. After all those poor kids were killed by that asshole with the AR-15, all the gun hating libtards said "WE must do something to ban these guns, or make it much harder for people to get them. We must keep guns out of the hands of mentally disturbed people."

Durrrrrrrrr

/The guy who killed all those kids? The guns weren't his. They belonged to his mother, who was a valid non crazy weapon owner. He killed her and stole her guns. Banning guns, or making it hard for honest law abiding people to get them does nothing, beyond your knee jerk reaction. He STOLE THEM. Make all the stupid moranic laws you want, criminals and crazy people don't give a fark. Jesus, get a farking brain and stop making new laws that the criminals ignore, or make it harder for honest people to defend themselves. Get a brain morans.

Funny thing is the gun shop the Lanza guns were purchased from was just busted for selling guns illegally. The fine is amazingly hefty too.


How responsible of a gun owner was she if she kept firearms in the house with a kid with obvious mental health issues?
 
2013-07-08 09:59:35 AM  

KrispyKritter: Great Janitor: Gun laws don't make me any safer.  They just make it harder for me to defend myself.

a truly Great Janitor need only a mop and broom to right all wrongs. Son, I am disappoint.


My broom is custom built, based on the design of the cane sword.  However, a range weapon is always nice.
 
2013-07-08 09:59:38 AM  

StaleCoffee: OnlyM3: MFAWG
2013-07-08 09:30:47 AM


Great Janitor: Gun laws don't make me any safer. They just make it harder for me to defend myself.

Because that's what you do, walk around terrified of everything. That must suck.Straw man
You only wear a seat belt because you plan on running down preschoolers and are terrified you'll get hurt when doing so, right?

Cars are used for the sole purpose of lethal defense by the average car owner?


That was my takeaway from every time I've ever encountered a driver with an Ohio plate.
 
2013-07-08 10:06:32 AM  
Well! I guess that ends that argument
 
2013-07-08 10:07:29 AM  
Thanks for admitting that the NRA are criminals.
 
2013-07-08 10:07:46 AM  
I enjoy how the irony is lost on the "everyone has a gun so I need a gun" crowd.
 
2013-07-08 10:09:45 AM  
Should have performed a DUH Test....
 
2013-07-08 10:11:22 AM  

UNC_Samurai: thecpt: Bit'O'Gristle: It always makes me laugh that they ban this gun or that gun, or make it 20 times harder for a law abiding person who has common sense to get a good weapon for either self defense, hunting, or target shooting. After all those poor kids were killed by that asshole with the AR-15, all the gun hating libtards said "WE must do something to ban these guns, or make it much harder for people to get them. We must keep guns out of the hands of mentally disturbed people."

Durrrrrrrrr

/The guy who killed all those kids? The guns weren't his. They belonged to his mother, who was a valid non crazy weapon owner. He killed her and stole her guns. Banning guns, or making it hard for honest law abiding people to get them does nothing, beyond your knee jerk reaction. He STOLE THEM. Make all the stupid moranic laws you want, criminals and crazy people don't give a fark. Jesus, get a farking brain and stop making new laws that the criminals ignore, or make it harder for honest people to defend themselves. Get a brain morans.

Funny thing is the gun shop the Lanza guns were purchased from was just busted for selling guns illegally. The fine is amazingly hefty too.

How responsible of a gun owner was she if she kept firearms in the house with a kid with obvious mental health issues?


Oh that wasn't my point. I don't think I could speculate on that. Plus moms can't make a rational emotionless decision like "my kid might be more likely to kill people." I just think it is kind of disturbing that the legally purchased firearms did that damage, and there were illegal firearms sold on top of all that.
 
2013-07-08 10:14:25 AM  

CapeFearCadaver: dittybopper: CapeFearCadaver: dittybopper: I'm sure you'll get the usual group of useful idiots to agree with you.

Watch out! They're storming into your house and into your gun cabinet to take all your guns away!!! Might as well shot your dog before they do!

English isn't your first language, is it?

My grammar is impeccable.

/gun owner, CCW carrier


You're having some problems with tense.  "Shot" is past tense, and we're way past tents.  We're living in bungalows now, this being the Mechanical Age of course.
 
2013-07-08 10:15:05 AM  

chuggernaught: Correct.  Now, where can I get my hands on a functional howitzer and rounds of ammo.  For home defense of course.  It's just an inanimate object so I should totally be allowed to have one.

/or as many as I choose for that matter.


Howitzer for Sale!

Here's a few more

They aren't illegal to own or operate, you just need to have your paperwork in order.
 
2013-07-08 10:15:30 AM  

doglover: MFAWG: Guns do not

Cartman, you're not gonna fool the judges so stop trying to get into the Special Olympics.


Do they have another use? Please enlighten me.

Target shooting is really just practicing getting better at making things dead.
 
2013-07-08 10:16:53 AM  

dittybopper: vpb: Well, that's what prisons are for.

Bank robbers don't care about laws either, that doesn't mean that we don't need laws against robbing banks.

Laws against committing a violent act are fine.  That's not what you want, though:  You want laws against the possession of inanimate objects, which is something completely different.

Nice job trying to conflate the two, though.  I'm sure you'll get the usual group of useful idiots to agree with you.


"I am convinced that we can do to guns what we've done to drugs: create a multi-billion dollar underground market over which we have absolutely no control." - George L. Roman

It's basic economics, if there is a demand they will be suppliers.  Gun control rests on the idea that government can actually CONTROL guns.  It can't, it can only make an example here and there while making really bad people rich because they were the only ones who were brave enough to disobey the law and sell the things. Oh, and then the bad people are going to kill good people by accident during disputes over distribution rights.

Just like alcohol, just like pot, or coke or crack or heroin or five gallon tolliet tanks or fark all else.
 
2013-07-08 10:17:02 AM  
The important point in this article is the call for a more holistic approach to crime in areas with high levels of violent crimes. Kids who live in the worst areas of the country do not have people that they look up to who haven't been in jail, or who aren't criminals. A great step to take in working toward a solution would be to invest in education, and recruit great teachers for areas like Camden. Then, instead of having primarily drug dealers and violent criminals as role models, kids might start looking up to their teachers as a mentor, and see a way out of the cycle of crime and failure. I support tougher gun laws, but that cannot be the only thing that happens if we truly do wan to find a solution that works. We really need to get to the core of the problem.
 
2013-07-08 10:19:28 AM  

monoski: So do we stop passing drug laws too since they don't seem to care about them either?


Yes.
 
2013-07-08 10:20:52 AM  
see if we get rid of drug laws, then we'd have a secular society.  "illegal" would then be equivalent to "morally wrong".  and it's bad to mix religion and state
 
2013-07-08 10:21:20 AM  
MFAWG: Drivers ED Target shooting is really just practicing getting better at making things dead Plowing through farmers markets.

Redcato ad absurdium returned.
 
2013-07-08 10:23:19 AM  
I'm sure this has nothing to do with the fact that Camden is completely broke and laid off half its police force.

It's the result of that ugly spiral wherein school and police funding are tied to local taxes.  Smaller tax base, worse services.  Worse services, fewer responsible adults.  Fewer responsible adults, smaller tax base.

It either needs a bailout from New Jersey or for someone to bulldoze the whole place (or for Philadelphia to turn into New York II and for people to try to gentrify it, but good luck with that in the next 30 years).
 
2013-07-08 10:24:02 AM  

PanicMan: John Buck 41: 4+ week old article. Nice going, everyone involved.

Has anything changed in the past 4 weeks re gun laws or American culture as it relates to violence?


Illinois governor and shameless liar Pat Quinn used an amendatory veto to alter the recently passed concealed weapons permit law into uselessness while citing the crime rates of Chicago, which imposes very strict restrictions upon civilian firearm possession, as justification.
 
2013-07-08 10:24:05 AM  

UNC_Samurai: How responsible of a gun owner was she if she kept firearms in the house with a kid with obvious mental health issues?


So she loses her rights through no fault of her own?

Also, while he may have had mental issues, I have yet to hear that he had violent tendencies from any source.  *THAT* might be a problem, but again, she shouldn't have lost any rights because of that.

Also, the shooter was an adult.  He was 19 years old at the time, not a 'kid' in the legal sense of the term.  In addition, we don't really know if she had the guns locked up and he just managed to steal the key or figure out the combination.  She had an actual gun safe, so for all we know at this point they may have been locked up.

He *PLANNED* the shootings ahead of time, and if he kept his plans to himself, there is essentially nothing anyone could have done.  Connecticut had fairly strict gun laws at the time, and they were followed by his mother.  All the guns she had were legally owned, and she had to get background checks on all of them.

Of course, no laws will ever close the "steal the guns and shoot the owner in the face with them" loophole.
 
2013-07-08 10:27:02 AM  

monoski: "But no law stopped him from becoming a teenage drug dealer who could easily acquire, and use, his weapon of choice "

So do we stop passing drug laws too since they don't seem to care about them either?


Yes.
 
2013-07-08 10:28:46 AM  

MFAWG: Great Janitor: Gun laws don't make me any safer.  They just make it harder for me to defend myself.

Because that's what you do, walk around terrified of everything. That must suck.


Being prepared is not walking around terrified of everything. Do you consider having insurance to mean that you are terrified of everything?
 
2013-07-08 10:29:04 AM  
www.everythingaction.com
 
2013-07-08 10:30:33 AM  

Dimensio: PanicMan: John Buck 41: 4+ week old article. Nice going, everyone involved.

Has anything changed in the past 4 weeks re gun laws or American culture as it relates to violence?

Illinois governor and shameless liar Pat Quinn used an amendatory veto to alter the recently passed concealed weapons permit law into uselessness while citing the crime rates of Chicago, which imposes very strict restrictions upon civilian firearm possession, as justification.


Tomorrow's thread on the override vote is gonna be EPIC!
 
2013-07-08 10:30:40 AM  

Jon iz teh kewl: MFAWG: Great Janitor: Gun laws don't make me any safer.  They just make it harder for me to defend myself.

Because that's what you do, walk around terrified of everything. That must suck.

conservatism isn't about being rational, dude.


Actually, it is.
 
2013-07-08 10:31:13 AM  

Click Click D'oh: chuggernaught: Correct.  Now, where can I get my hands on a functional howitzer and rounds of ammo.  For home defense of course.  It's just an inanimate object so I should totally be allowed to have one.

/or as many as I choose for that matter.

Howitzer for Sale!

Here's a few more

They aren't illegal to own or operate, you just need to have your paperwork in order.


Actually, if you go with muzzleloading artillery, you don't need any paperwork.  I have a modest 76mm mortar that I shoot on very rare occasions.
 
2013-07-08 10:31:25 AM  

Englebert Slaptyback: StaleCoffee

It would be nice if people differentiated gun control and regulation from gun bans, too.


That would be nice, but these discussions seem to devolve into two polar opposite positions:

1) All guns for everyone all the time, with no regulation or administrative control like background checks.

2) No guns for anyone ever.

There is middle ground but hardly anyone wants to look at it.


This just isn't true, it's the false dichotomy presented by those who think that even a conversation about what COULD be done is tyranny being persecuted against them by Commies who want to destroy America.
 
2013-07-08 10:31:45 AM  

MFAWG: doglover: MFAWG: Guns do not

Cartman, you're not gonna fool the judges so stop trying to get into the Special Olympics.

Do they have another use? Please enlighten me.

Target shooting is really just practicing getting better at making things dead.


Learning how to type is really just practicing to get better at posting stupid analogies on Fark.
 
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