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(IGN)   Bungie co-founder finally comes clean on Halo's overpowered pistol   (ign.com) divider line 46
    More: Interesting, Bungie, halos, Next Big Thing, creator deity, Howard Hughes  
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7237 clicks; posted to Geek » on 08 Jul 2013 at 9:09 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



46 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-07-08 09:32:50 AM  
I am proud to say I don't understand any of this.
 
2013-07-08 09:44:20 AM  
(Featured Partner)
 
2013-07-08 09:46:38 AM  
OK. So what does he know about Roller Derby?
 
2013-07-08 09:47:40 AM  
Honestly, this was a terrible interview.
It contained very little detail and sounded more the someone just randomly thinking about things than anything else.
I really learned nothing new from reading this.
 
2013-07-08 10:16:24 AM  
I want a new Myth game. Buy back the rights, Bungie!
 
2013-07-08 10:18:50 AM  
I could tell at the end of this why the guy avoids giving interviews... He is not very good at them.

And when the IGN writer treats every word as if it's some great revelation, it makes for a terrible and uninteresting piece of click bait.
 
2013-07-08 10:20:58 AM  

Msol: I want a new Myth game. Buy back the rights, Bungie!


Myth was that RTS where limbs could be hacked off, right?
 
2013-07-08 10:22:25 AM  
That interview sucked.  And Halo has sucked since the first game.  fark Bungie.
 
2013-07-08 10:29:28 AM  
Step 1: Fully charge Plasma Pistol, hoot at enemy
Step 2: Switch to pistol and head-shot enemy
Step 3: K/D PROFIT
 
2013-07-08 10:30:36 AM  
Overpowered my ass. It was the best-balanced, most versatile weapon in the game, and it was still weaker at close range than the AR or shotgun, slower at takedowns than a PP/headshot combo, less raw damage than the heavier weapons, and weaker at long range than the shotgun. Halo's pistol changed the entire FPS dynamic from spawning players with a weak weapon (and a strong disadvantage) and forcing them to find better (running the risk of feeding other players kills in the process), to spawning players with a competitive weapon with which self-defense was possible (which also meant everyone had equal access to it, and one player couldn't pick it up and run the map with it).

Ask yourself, how much spawn camping happened in Halo: CE? Much, much less than its contemporary shooters? Thank the pistol for that.
 
2013-07-08 10:30:51 AM  

Plant Rights Activist: (Featured Partner)


I hope nobody hurt themselves trying to fit that many adds on one page.
 
2013-07-08 10:33:51 AM  
Still no cure for CoD quickscoping.
 
2013-07-08 10:43:14 AM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Msol: I want a new Myth game. Buy back the rights, Bungie!

Myth was that RTS where limbs could be hacked off, right?


Sure was, though it was more real time tactics than strategy. One of the first to use a 3D landscape and free camera, I think. Unfortunately, the Bungie versions (1 and 2) used sprite animations for the units, and haven't aged terribly well. Still an exceptionally well balanced game though. I loved how much experience mattered for your units. You'd grow so attached to your best archer that you'd replay levels over and over just to save him.
 
2013-07-08 10:56:13 AM  
?????  I didn't realize it was "overpowerd" as much that the zoom turned it into a mini sniper rifle.   It still took multiple rounds to take down an opponent with full shields the thing was you could start picking at them from across the map with a pistol because of the zoom.
 
2013-07-08 11:04:11 AM  

that bosnian sniper: Overpowered my ass. It was the best-balanced, most versatile weapon in the game, and it was still weaker at close range than the AR or shotgun, slower at takedowns than a PP/headshot combo, less raw damage than the heavier weapons, and weaker at long range than the shotgun. Halo's pistol changed the entire FPS dynamic from spawning players with a weak weapon (and a strong disadvantage) and forcing them to find better (running the risk of feeding other players kills in the process), to spawning players with a competitive weapon with which self-defense was possible (which also meant everyone had equal access to it, and one player couldn't pick it up and run the map with it).

Ask yourself, how much spawn camping happened in Halo: CE? Much, much less than its contemporary shooters? Thank the pistol for that.


Just for fun, bring up that argument in a UT forum.
 
2013-07-08 11:15:26 AM  

DoBeDoBeDo: ?????  I didn't realize it was "overpowerd" as much that the zoom turned it into a mini sniper rifle.   It still took multiple rounds to take down an opponent with full shields the thing was you could start picking at them from across the map with a pistol because of the zoom.


Definitely op.the problem was people didn't understand holding the trigger down vs trigger pulls. Holding it down made it less accurate, and 3 shots would kill if the last was a head shot. People would try to shoot quicker rather than placing them. Semis usually aren't programmed that way.
 
2013-07-08 11:16:29 AM  

The_EliteOne: Step 1: Fully charge Plasma Pistol, hoot at enemy
Step 2: Switch to pistol and head-shot enemy
Step 3: K/D PROFIT


Beating the noob combo was easy in two with a crouch jump.
 
2013-07-08 11:36:26 AM  
This reminds me of my favorite pet peeve in FPS games - the pistol being very accurate. I've only played a few FPS games, but in all Halo games and Half-Life 2 the pistol was the non-sniper sniping weapon. How in the world does a weapon with that short a barrel have that kind of accuracy? Even the submachine gun would have double or triple its effective range.
 
2013-07-08 11:41:59 AM  
It's still the most viable weapon in certain forms of Mp. I always use it when playing Swat over either DMR or BR
 
2013-07-08 11:56:35 AM  
I still think Marathon had one of the best back stories of any game from that era. I may go back and reread all the terminal screen.


/Duradal was the shiat.
//The ship used to be a farking moon.
 
2013-07-08 11:59:43 AM  

SkittlesAreYum: This reminds me of my favorite pet peeve in FPS games - the pistol being very accurate. I've only played a few FPS games, but in all Halo games and Half-Life 2 the pistol was the non-sniper sniping weapon. How in the world does a weapon with that short a barrel have that kind of accuracy? Even the submachine gun would have double or triple its effective range.


It's because of auto aim. Console controllers don't give you the accuracy of a mouse, so there is a ton of auto aim added in. Combine that with developers that rarely touch an actual weapon and Bam, headshot
 
2013-07-08 12:02:58 PM  

TeamEd: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Msol: I want a new Myth game. Buy back the rights, Bungie!

Myth was that RTS where limbs could be hacked off, right?

Sure was, though it was more real time tactics than strategy. One of the first to use a 3D landscape and free camera, I think. Unfortunately, the Bungie versions (1 and 2) used sprite animations for the units, and haven't aged terribly well. Still an exceptionally well balanced game though. I loved how much experience mattered for your units. You'd grow so attached to your best archer that you'd replay levels over and over just to save him.


Myth was a fun game.  I still remember my first encounter with a Trow.  I had just discovered that you could speed up time in game, and I set it at maximum just to see what had happened.  The Trow showed up and kicked its way through my entire army, except for one lone dwarf, who killed it with one of his bombs just as the Trow came after him.  Fun times..
 
2013-07-08 12:12:37 PM  

Where wolf: SkittlesAreYum: This reminds me of my favorite pet peeve in FPS games - the pistol being very accurate. I've only played a few FPS games, but in all Halo games and Half-Life 2 the pistol was the non-sniper sniping weapon. How in the world does a weapon with that short a barrel have that kind of accuracy? Even the submachine gun would have double or triple its effective range.

It's because of auto aim. Console controllers don't give you the accuracy of a mouse, so there is a ton of auto aim added in. Combine that with developers that rarely touch an actual weapon and Bam, headshot


Nah, look again. The pistol in Half-Life has perfect accuracy. Also, the .45 is a one shot kill. Two real stupid weapon decisions.

If you want excellent gun mechanics in a FPS, check out the STALKER series. Either SoC or CoP. Best ballistics model in any FPS ever.
 
2013-07-08 12:32:56 PM  
Reads more like a diary entry than interview.
 
2013-07-08 12:40:20 PM  

SkittlesAreYum: This reminds me of my favorite pet peeve in FPS games - the pistol being very accurate. I've only played a few FPS games, but in all Halo games and Half-Life 2 the pistol was the non-sniper sniping weapon. How in the world does a weapon with that short a barrel have that kind of accuracy? Even the submachine gun would have double or triple its effective range.


Until they fixed it, in Battlefield Bad Company 2 you could snipe across the map with a shotgun.  Man would that piss people off.
 
2013-07-08 12:53:17 PM  
maybe it's because i grew up with games like doom and quake, but i wish more games had nothing but overpowered weapons

/why yes, i had a lot of fun with fc3 blood dragon
 
2013-07-08 12:53:40 PM  

thecpt: DoBeDoBeDo: ?????  I didn't realize it was "overpowerd" as much that the zoom turned it into a mini sniper rifle.   It still took multiple rounds to take down an opponent with full shields the thing was you could start picking at them from across the map with a pistol because of the zoom.

Definitely op.the problem was people didn't understand holding the trigger down vs trigger pulls. Holding it down made it less accurate, and 3 shots would kill if the last was a head shot. People would try to shoot quicker rather than placing them. Semis usually aren't programmed that way.


You see the same stuff at pistol ranges. Someone will fire off ten rounds really fast and wonder why that can't keep it on the paper. Whereas if they slowed down, they would have much better accuracy.

//I blame the media and movies
 
2013-07-08 12:57:44 PM  
Thinking about how guns (small arms) would be balanced to match real world lethality in games is kind of interesting.  There really shouldn't be much difference between a rifle, shotgun, or pistol, except for the range at which they are accurate.
 
Any single hit to the head or spine equals instant death no matter the caliber or weapon fired from.  Any hit to the torso should cause you to bleed out in some random amount of time, like 2-5 seconds with the screen blurring and function either diminishing or not randomly to mimic shock effects  ( I like this because it means people who rush into rooms to spray and prey stand a good chance to die from wounds inflicted before their enemy dies),

 Hits to the limbs could either cause you to lose mobility and function and also bleed out but a bit longer than the torso shot.  Except at really long distance a limb hit would probably take you out of the fighht or kill you in real life.
 
2013-07-08 12:58:41 PM  

Lumbar Puncture: SkittlesAreYum: This reminds me of my favorite pet peeve in FPS games - the pistol being very accurate. I've only played a few FPS games, but in all Halo games and Half-Life 2 the pistol was the non-sniper sniping weapon. How in the world does a weapon with that short a barrel have that kind of accuracy? Even the submachine gun would have double or triple its effective range.

Until they fixed it, in Battlefield Bad Company 2 you could snipe across the map with a shotgun.  Man would that piss people off.


I remember that. Stupid slug. It's not why I stopped playing, but it didn't help.

/people are why I stopped playing
//people are farking stupid
///I wanted that helicopter/tank/truck but you got in first, so now I'm going to blow it up.
 
2013-07-08 01:03:19 PM  

SkittlesAreYum: This reminds me of my favorite pet peeve in FPS games - the pistol being very accurate. I've only played a few FPS games, but in all Halo games and Half-Life 2 the pistol was the non-sniper sniping weapon. How in the world does a weapon with that short a barrel have that kind of accuracy? Even the submachine gun would have double or triple its effective range.


IIRC, the accuracy of the weapons changes based on the player level you choose: Easy, Normal or Hard.
At the very least the amount of ammo damage to enemies was decreased.
 
2013-07-08 01:05:09 PM  

TeamEd: If you want excellent gun mechanics in a FPS, check out the STALKER series. Either SoC or CoP. Best ballistics model in any FPS ever.


I still think the hardest mission in CoP is the first.  "Here is a handgun that cannot hit anything 15ft away, now take out those 6 guys with shotguns"

/I have never did that mission with help.... I wonder how that would change the encounter.
 
2013-07-08 01:18:36 PM  

smoky2010: thecpt: DoBeDoBeDo: ?????  I didn't realize it was "overpowerd" as much that the zoom turned it into a mini sniper rifle.   It still took multiple rounds to take down an opponent with full shields the thing was you could start picking at them from across the map with a pistol because of the zoom.

Definitely op.the problem was people didn't understand holding the trigger down vs trigger pulls. Holding it down made it less accurate, and 3 shots would kill if the last was a head shot. People would try to shoot quicker rather than placing them. Semis usually aren't programmed that way.

You see the same stuff at pistol ranges. Someone will fire off ten rounds really fast and wonder why that can't keep it on the paper. Whereas if they slowed down, they would have much better accuracy.

//I blame the media and movies


The difference here being you could fire just as fast, if you released the trigger and had any sense of rhythm. At the range, I have to pause and move it back Slowing me down. Not in halo 1 though
 
2013-07-08 01:25:42 PM  

manimal2878: Thinking about how guns (small arms) would be balanced to match real world lethality in games is kind of interesting.  There really shouldn't be much difference between a rifle, shotgun, or pistol, except for the range at which they are accurate.
 
Any single hit to the head or spine equals instant death no matter the caliber or weapon fired from.  Any hit to the torso should cause you to bleed out in some random amount of time, like 2-5 seconds with the screen blurring and function either diminishing or not randomly to mimic shock effects  ( I like this because it means people who rush into rooms to spray and prey stand a good chance to die from wounds inflicted before their enemy dies),

 Hits to the limbs could either cause you to lose mobility and function and also bleed out but a bit longer than the torso shot.  Except at really long distance a limb hit would probably take you out of the fighht or kill you in real life.


That sounds severely not-fun to play. 1-2 shot and dead is not a fun mechanic, and it's a great way to get players to go back to CoD:4000.  You spend 9/10 of your time watching the respawn counter click down, then spend 5 seconds running to play, then get killed by a much better player, and repeat.

I generally like Halo (1 and 2 at least, haven't played any others) approach of giving you a regenerating shield and non regenerating health, so you can sponge up 2-10 shots.  But I also dislike snipers (gee, I get 1 shot from across the map every time I leave the base, and I can't get near the guy because see previous, and/or just generally anti-fun having someone camp and snipe).

Problem with Halos pistol was that it was a not-so-mini sniper. A skilled player could 2-3 shot you from across the map with his starting weapon faster than you could react to the first shot (i.e. less than a second), and it didn't leave a contrail like the sniper rifle.
 
2013-07-08 01:33:52 PM  

Famous Thamas: TeamEd: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Msol: I want a new Myth game. Buy back the rights, Bungie!

Myth was that RTS where limbs could be hacked off, right?

Sure was, though it was more real time tactics than strategy. One of the first to use a 3D landscape and free camera, I think. Unfortunately, the Bungie versions (1 and 2) used sprite animations for the units, and haven't aged terribly well. Still an exceptionally well balanced game though. I loved how much experience mattered for your units. You'd grow so attached to your best archer that you'd replay levels over and over just to save him.

Myth was a fun game.  I still remember my first encounter with a Trow.  I had just discovered that you could speed up time in game, and I set it at maximum just to see what had happened.  The Trow showed up and kicked its way through my entire army, except for one lone dwarf, who killed it with one of his bombs just as the Trow came after him.  Fun times..


Yeeeeaaahhhh Myth! That shiat was hot, and had a robust online/mod community. Was a big fan of the LotR and WW2 modsets, i sank hours into playing that online.

CASUALTY
CASUALTY
SUDDEN DEATH

devine: I still think Marathon had one of the best back stories of any game from that era. I may go back and reread all the terminal screen.


/Duradal was the shiat.
//The ship used to be a farking moon.


Durandal WAS the shiat. I fondly recall having friends over in grade school to play 6-8 way games over an Appletalk network. You'd always know when someone would get the flamethrower cuz they'd yell TOASTY and start laughing. That thing was a hallway plow.

/frog blast the vent core
 
2013-07-08 01:41:00 PM  

kroonermanblack: You spend 9/10 of your time watching the respawn counter click down, then spend 5 seconds running to play, then get killed by a much better player, and repeat.


If the mechanics were that you died in one shot you really shouldn't be rushing through the map from point to point dieing every few seconds.

You should be going slow using tactics to move through an area.  With a bleed out function that gives you a few seconds to avenge your death, it takes most of the incentive of rushing into a room away since even if your reflexes are quicker it is suicidal to run around like that.
 
2013-07-08 01:50:20 PM  

mooseyfate: Lumbar Puncture: SkittlesAreYum: This reminds me of my favorite pet peeve in FPS games - the pistol being very accurate. I've only played a few FPS games, but in all Halo games and Half-Life 2 the pistol was the non-sniper sniping weapon. How in the world does a weapon with that short a barrel have that kind of accuracy? Even the submachine gun would have double or triple its effective range.

Until they fixed it, in Battlefield Bad Company 2 you could snipe across the map with a shotgun.  Man would that piss people off.

I remember that. Stupid slug. It's not why I stopped playing, but it didn't help.

/people are why I stopped playing
//people are farking stupid
///I wanted that helicopter/tank/truck but you got in first, so now I'm going to blow it up.


i just started playing BF3 - waay late to the party i know.  my friend says i'm stubborn & as much fun as i'm having playing it now, i think he's right.

people always suck online.  i've played halo a lot and the amount of team killing - killing your mates vehicles - etc is more noticeable on halo than i've noticed on BF3 so far.  (i have no idea how to fly the planes or choppers... jeebus i just crash & burn)

OT - the pistol in halo has always been my favorite (except for H3 - they just turned it into a piece of crap shooting soft crap bullets) but it was my ToD in Reach & up there in H4 - until i put it down and started playing BF3

/4 drops shields & 1 to the dome
 
2013-07-08 02:50:44 PM  

TeamEd: You'd grow so attached to your best archer that you'd replay levels over and over just to save him.


Yeah, nothing sucked more than finishing a mission well, only to realize that one of your veteran archers was killed.  *reload*

/make a hole!
 
2013-07-08 03:01:30 PM  

thecpt: Definitely op.


Again, no. It was a default spawn weapon, and everyone had access to it meaning a given player could not pick it up and run the map with it while denying everyone use of the weapon. It was an equalizer. A given weapon or item is only overpowered when it gives one player a disproportionate advantage over others, and since  everyone had the pistol at spawn  nobody had a disproportionate advantage over  anyone else.

Even then, it was still severely outclassed by other weapons at their respective ranges -- the AR blew the pistol straight out of the water at close range. Which means, surprise surprise, you had to learn the maps -- not for item spawn points or rotations, but also for firing lanes, visibility, ambush spots, traffic, and areas best-suited for the weapon you currently have.

the problem was people didn't understand holding the trigger down vs trigger pulls. Holding it down made it less accurate, and 3 shots would kill if the last was a head shot. People would try to shoot quicker rather than placing them. Semis usually aren't programmed that way.

That wasn't the "problem"...at all. The "problem" was the pistol's shot spread wasn't actually random -- those first three shots  always went up and to the right of the reticle, slightly down and to the left, and down and to the right if I remember right. Letting go of the trigger reset the shot pattern, which meant if you let go with each pull your shots would  always hit in exactly one spot, up and to the right of the reticle. Considering if your timing was good you could single-pull and fire faster than just holding the trigger down, you could line up three headshots with perfect accuracy in the time it took to get off two by holding down the trigger.
 
2013-07-08 03:13:09 PM  

that bosnian sniper: thecpt: Definitely op.

Again, no. It was a default spawn weapon, and everyone had access to it meaning a given player could not pick it up and run the map with it while denying everyone use of the weapon. It was an equalizer. A given weapon or item is only overpowered when it gives one player a disproportionate advantage over others, and since  everyone had the pistol at spawn  nobody had a disproportionate advantage over  anyone else.

Even then, it was still severely outclassed by other weapons at their respective ranges -- the AR blew the pistol straight out of the water at close range. Which means, surprise surprise, you had to learn the maps -- not for item spawn points or rotations, but also for firing lanes, visibility, ambush spots, traffic, and areas best-suited for the weapon you currently have.

the problem was people didn't understand holding the trigger down vs trigger pulls. Holding it down made it less accurate, and 3 shots would kill if the last was a head shot. People would try to shoot quicker rather than placing them. Semis usually aren't programmed that way.

That wasn't the "problem"...at all. The "problem" was the pistol's shot spread wasn't actually random -- those first three shots  always went up and to the right of the reticle, slightly down and to the left, and down and to the right if I remember right. Letting go of the trigger reset the shot pattern, which meant if you let go with each pull your shots would  always hit in exactly one spot, up and to the right of the reticle. Considering if your timing was good you could single-pull and fire faster than just holding the trigger down, you could line up three headshots with perfect accuracy in the time it took to get off two by holding down the trigger.


Yeah your recoil paragraph is what I meant to say, but it is a problem that you had to figure out that unconventional wisdom.

But really, I think it's op if it beat an AR at medium range, and it beat it and practically every weapon hands down. It was pretty much the only gun you should use in that game, barring the limited sniper and rocket launcher.

I say that as someone who really like staying in the middle with a pistol on blood gulch.
 
2013-07-08 03:48:55 PM  

thecpt: I say that as someone who really like staying in the middle with a pistol on blood gulch.


In other words, you stayed in a spot where the pistol's range and accuracy were at a premium.
 
2013-07-08 04:02:20 PM  

AdamK: maybe it's because i grew up with games like doom and quake, but i wish more games had nothing but overpowered weapons

/why yes, i had a lot of fun with fc3 blood dragon


You might be interested in the new Rise of the Triad game.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/217140/
 
2013-07-08 04:06:43 PM  

that bosnian sniper: A given weapon or item is only overpowered when it gives one player a disproportionate advantage over others


No. I'm not jumping into the "Pistol OP or Not" debate, but just because something is always available doesn't mean it can't be overpowered.

Example: change the pistol to a one-body-shot kill. Is it still balanced, just because everyone has it? No, of course not - no one has an advantage, but no one uses any other weapons, thus depriving the game of any balance.
 
2013-07-08 04:07:36 PM  

that bosnian sniper: thecpt: I say that as someone who really like staying in the middle with a pistol on blood gulch.

In other words, you stayed in a spot where the pistol's range and accuracy were at a premium.


Exactly. For the majority of levels there was no reason to use any other gun. Hang em high comes to mind. There was a shotgun that was only useful in the area you got it, which was tiny. I understand your argument, if everyone has it then its not op. that is both true and what set it apart. But there was little reason to use anything else at all other than super weapons. The pistol was just too good.
 
2013-07-08 04:18:13 PM  

AdamK: maybe it's because i grew up with games like doom and quake, but i wish more games had nothing but overpowered weapons

/why yes, i had a lot of fun with fc3 blood dragon


Agreed.  I'm also not a fan of the quasi-religious-commandment status that "balance" has taken on.  Not every game needs to be a tournament game, designed to test only reflex and aiming-- although I have no objection to balanced games.  It's okay, once in a while, if a game has a weapon or map feature that really IS better than others.  It adds another level of depth and strategy that games that attempt to evenly balance everything lose.
 
2013-07-08 04:34:37 PM  

raygundan: Agreed.  I'm also not a fan of the quasi-religious-commandment status that "balance" has taken on.  Not every game needs to be a tournament game, designed to test only reflex and aiming-- although I have no objection to balanced games.  It's okay, once in a while, if a game has a weapon or map feature that really IS better than others.  It adds another level of depth and strategy that games that attempt to evenly balance everything lose.


I can see that.  I remember way back in my LAN party days hearing "Oh, fark!  X has the Y!" and the game suddenly turned into semi-coop as we all tried to kill the newly minted God of Death.  And those glorious times when I had the death stick....
 
2013-07-08 07:38:57 PM  

Msol: I want a new Myth game. Buy back the rights, Bungie!


Yeah. :-/
I miss Myth.

Also I liked the pistol in Halo 1 when I played it on PC. You needed headshots for it to be worth it, so it was one of those "risk vs reward" things that I thought added to the game. This is the same game where you can instantly kill people with a melee smack to the back of the head.
This stuff probably doesn't work well in the auto-aiming gameplay of consoles, though.
 
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