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(NPR)   1920's hotness: Homemade alcohol. 2013 hotness: Homemade bullets   (npr.org) divider line 83
    More: Scary, homeMADE  
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2577 clicks; posted to Business » on 07 Jul 2013 at 8:09 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



83 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-07-07 06:04:12 PM  
Rally round the family with a pocket full of home made shells?

Meh, everyone needs a hobby.
 
2013-07-07 06:19:49 PM  
Sad when the author doesn't know the difference between a bullet and a cartridge.
 
2013-07-07 06:37:48 PM  
media.npr.org

So, if I want more than one, I can just open as many as I want, and you'll sell them to me?
 
2013-07-07 06:42:25 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: [media.npr.org image 462x346]

So, if I want more than one, I can just open as many as I want, and you'll sell them to me?


That's how I'm reading it.
 
2013-07-07 06:44:58 PM  
So much for Chris Rock's gun control plan
 
2013-07-07 07:10:10 PM  
Fears of government tightening of gun and ammunition controls

the scarcity of ready-made bullets has frustrated shooters to the point they're spending between $200 and $1,000 to get into the hobby known as "reloading."


Owning a gun shop just sounds like the most lucrative business you could have. The owners must all secretly vote democrat, they'd be idiots to do anything else.
 
2013-07-07 07:21:00 PM  
Oh my god!!! People are doing something that has been done for hundreds of years... everybody panic!!!

OMG they're making cartridges too!!! They're doing something that has been done for a hundred and fiftyish years... everybody panic... more!!!
 
2013-07-07 07:25:18 PM  

sentex: Sad when the author doesn't know the difference between a bullet and a cartridge.


No kidding, I came here to read about scrounging lead wheel weights & having a smelter out in the garage & this dufus is talking about the entire package.  I really was interested in hearing about how he could jacket his bullets or if not then what he was doing about lead fouling.

/much of the ammo 'shortage' is due to the decade long war that we've been stuck in.
//ammo companies tend to first fill the orders from the guys who give them permits to operate & also buy by the trainload
///any ammo/component manufacturer who hasn't been running 3 shifts for the past few years is missing out on some serious money
 
2013-07-07 07:35:42 PM  

Barfmaker: Fears of government tightening of gun and ammunition controls

the scarcity of ready-made bullets has frustrated shooters to the point they're spending between $200 and $1,000 to get into the hobby known as "reloading."

Owning a gun shop just sounds like the most lucrative business you could have. The owners must all secretly vote democrat, they'd be idiots to do anything else.


That and support the NRA, so Wayne can scare the suckers into stocking up every election year when a Democrat is poised to win.
 
2013-07-07 08:15:07 PM  
I really need to get into the arms industry.
 
2013-07-07 08:17:31 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: [media.npr.org image 462x346]

So, if I want more than one, I can just open as many as I want, and you'll sell them to me?


Genius.  I'm going to spread the word.
 
2013-07-07 08:21:55 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-07-07 08:23:02 PM  
Better start reload in quick before 0bummer, the empty suit, expertly tricks a Congress that can't pass a farking budget, into taking away your gun rights!

thepatriotperspective.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-07-07 08:28:54 PM  
Wasn't there a chapter on this in Little House in the Big Woods or something?
 
2013-07-07 08:32:52 PM  
When I need to reload I just shoot outside the battlefield.
 
2013-07-07 08:33:27 PM  
What bathtub gin might look like:

www.alconomics.com
 
2013-07-07 08:51:20 PM  
Whatever standards NPR had are slipping even further.

/fyi, google gas checks & swaging...more really old reloading tricks
//and they used to use spent .22 cases for jacketing material
///the lawn, you're on it.
 
2013-07-07 08:57:44 PM  
Well whoop dee doo.
On NPR, everything old is new again.
 
2013-07-07 09:07:54 PM  
Is NPR really that clueless? I've known people reloading for the last 25 years in order to save money on target shooting ammo. I remember reloading shot gun shells in college close to 40 years ago (ok. I'm old dammit) in order to save money for the skeet and trap shooting classes I was taking.

// Note: Never put 2x the powder in one shotgun shell and 2x the shot in the other.
 
2013-07-07 09:14:03 PM  

CujoQuarrel: Is NPR really that clueless? .


No, they're not. This is an article written by the NRA to tell its members that ammunition is super expense and hard to find due to manufacturing shortages, and its obvious intent is to get more people to stock up, since ammo is going to be so hard to find. Did you get to the part of the article where a guy that owns an ammo factory claimed he has so many customers his phones got overloaded and crashed? Motherf*cker, please.
 
2013-07-07 09:15:33 PM  
Reloading is old news, and always was a cheap way to shoot a lot, provided you had the time on your hands to piss away carefully measuring things and pulling a lever. I don't know why components wouldn't be scarce too, if fully assembled factory ammo is hard to come by. It is, after all, made of the exact same parts. I haven't even had time to go shooting, lately, so I have no idea what the situation really is at present.
 
2013-07-07 09:16:57 PM  

HotWingAgenda: CujoQuarrel: Is NPR really that clueless? .

No, they're not. This is an article written by the NRA to tell its members that ammunition is super expense and hard to find due to manufacturing shortages, and its obvious intent is to get more people to stock up, since ammo is going to be so hard to find. Did you get to the part of the article where a guy that owns an ammo factory claimed he has so many customers his phones got overloaded and crashed? Motherf*cker, please.


Um, my bad. I read that as NRA. The rest of my post stands, but now I am also wondering how NPR could get suckered by the guys they talked to for this article.
 
2013-07-07 09:24:31 PM  
www.ttellc.net

I'm getting a kick out of all these replies. There is a perfect storm of commodity panic (brass, lead and copper being used in emerging markets in China and India), along with ammo panic due to fear mongering from outside industry pundits, some panic due to knee jerk laws like the news ones here in Colorado and a host of other factors. People are really really scared.

And really really dumb.

I believe the story of the guys at Dillon Precision having to purchase phones, its been a madhouse since SHOT Show in January.
 
2013-07-07 09:29:34 PM  

CujoQuarrel: Is NPR really that clueless? I've known people reloading for the last 25 years in order to save money on target shooting ammo. I remember reloading shot gun shells in college close to 40 years ago (ok. I'm old dammit) in order to save money for the skeet and trap shooting classes I was taking.

// Note: Never put 2x the powder in one shotgun shell and 2x the shot in the other.


I hope you caught your mistake, the double charge could blow your weapons action to pieces
 
2013-07-07 09:31:14 PM  

Kyoki: [www.ttellc.net image 759x1012]

I'm getting a kick out of all these replies. There is a perfect storm of commodity panic (brass, lead and copper being used in emerging markets in China and India), along with ammo panic due to fear mongering from outside industry pundits, some panic due to knee jerk laws like the news ones here in Colorado and a host of other factors. People are really really scared.

And really really dumb.

I believe the story of the guys at Dillon Precision having to purchase phones, its been a madhouse since SHOT Show in January.


Nice progressive press, what do you reload for?
 
2013-07-07 09:42:04 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: Lionel Mandrake: [media.npr.org image 462x346]

So, if I want more than one, I can just open as many as I want, and you'll sell them to me?

Genius.  I'm going to spread the word.


Careful, it is a gun store, after all.
 
2013-07-07 09:51:37 PM  
Sagus:

Nice progressive press, what do you reload for?

Just mil calibers, 5.56, 7.62x51 and 9mm.
 
2013-07-07 09:55:13 PM  

HotWingAgenda: HotWingAgenda: CujoQuarrel: Is NPR really that clueless? .

No, they're not. This is an article written by the NRA to tell its members that ammunition is super expense and hard to find due to manufacturing shortages, and its obvious intent is to get more people to stock up, since ammo is going to be so hard to find. Did you get to the part of the article where a guy that owns an ammo factory claimed he has so many customers his phones got overloaded and crashed? Motherf*cker, please.

Um, my bad. I read that as NRA. The rest of my post stands, but now I am also wondering how NPR could get suckered by the guys they talked to for this article.


www.famouspeopleinfo.com
 
2013-07-07 10:07:12 PM  
Yeah, reloading is not the same as "making your own bullets."  Although more people are getting into cast lead bullets. . . We clean our local tireshops out of used wheel weights.  Next goal: making blackpowder.  Then I won't be paying the military industrial complex for all of those .50 and .54 caliber swaged lead balls, flints, and black powder. . .

/I do also reload modern rifle ammo
//I recently found some 165 gr. .30 caliber game king bullets at my local walmart after trying to find them everywhere. . . I squealed like a little girl.
 
2013-07-07 10:14:18 PM  

Sagus: Kyoki: [www.ttellc.net image 759x1012]

Nice progressive press, what do you reload for?


Oh, btw, there are 2 Dillon Precision 550b's and 1 Dillon 650b in that pic. ;)
 
2013-07-07 10:51:58 PM  
WTF--is Wisconsin really that different than the rest of the country?  Virtually every shooter I know for the last 30+ years reloads and has a jig or two in the basement.

/Old news is old.
 
2013-07-07 11:04:40 PM  

HotWingAgenda: This is an article written by the NRA to tell its members that ammunition is super expense and hard to find due to manufacturing shortages, and its obvious intent is to get more people to stock up, since ammo is going to be so hard to find. Did you get to the part of the article where a guy that owns an ammo factory claimed he has so many customers his phones got overloaded and crashed? Motherf*cker, please.


That guy was from Dillon, a company that makes the machines called reloading presses that one uses to assemble the components.  They are not an ammo company.

Those of us who shoot are well aware of the availability of ammo and reloading components.  There are people who compete in sporting competitions and leagues for recreation that go through a fair bit of ammo for practice, and we don't need the NRA or NPR to get the word out on the shortages.   You probably run in to us around your neighborhood.

Even though they downplayed it in the media, there is a great olympic champion you should be aware of.  Google Kim Rhode sometime.
 
2013-07-07 11:11:05 PM  

forgotmydamnusername: I don't know why components wouldn't be scarce too, if fully assembled factory ammo is hard to come by. It is, after all, made of the exact same parts.


They have been also.  Everything is starting to loosen up though.  The manufacturers have ramped up everywhere I think.  I bought shotgun shells made in France a while back, and Federal has been importing AR ammo from Israel and putting their name on it.
 
2013-07-07 11:11:23 PM  

Triptolemus: Yeah, reloading is not the same as "making your own bullets."  Although more people are getting into cast lead bullets. . . We clean our local tireshops out of used wheel weights.  Next goal: making blackpowder.  Then I won't be paying the military industrial complex for all of those .50 and .54 caliber swaged lead balls, flints, and black powder. . .

/I do also reload modern rifle ammo
//I recently found some 165 gr. .30 caliber game king bullets at my local walmart after trying to find them everywhere. . . I squealed like a little girl.


I tried my hand at casting bullets, but it was just too much work.  And it was ridiculously hard to find a shop that would let me buy their wheel weights.  All the corporate places have recycling programs and they can't divert the metal.  I eventually found an independent shop where I could buy them... for $1/lb.

I've still got about 800 230gr .452" bullets that need to be sized and lubed, and about 30lbs in ingots.  Things will have to get really desperate before I tackle that.  At least the ingots are useful for scuba diving.
 
2013-07-07 11:21:11 PM  

Fish in a Barrel: I tried my hand at casting bullets, but it was just too much work.  And it was ridiculously hard to find a shop that would let me buy their wheel weights.  All the corporate places have recycling programs and they can't divert the metal.  I eventually found an independent shop where I could buy them... for $1/lb.

I've still got about 800 230gr .452" bullets that need to be sized and lubed, and about 30lbs in ingots.  Things will have to get really desperate before I tackle that.  At least the ingots are useful for scuba diving.


Yeah, you have to be dedicated, but my friend and I knock them out in large batches, and we're in a small town with several tire shops that are happy to have us dispose of their old weights.  Not sure I'd pay for them though- next time you have to buy, remind them that disposal costs money and you'll take them for free. . . .Anyway, yeah, that's quite a bit of lead- I think you have enough to last you a while.  And you have some great toxic door stops and paper weights in the meantime. . .
 
2013-07-07 11:27:37 PM  

Triptolemus: next time you have to buy, remind them that disposal costs money and you'll take them for free


That's the thing: apparently none of the shops around here are paying to dispose of lead.  The only reason I was able to get the lead from that one shop was because I out-bid their regular guy.
 
2013-07-07 11:49:46 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: Barfmaker: Fears of government tightening of gun and ammunition controls

the scarcity of ready-made bullets has frustrated shooters to the point they're spending between $200 and $1,000 to get into the hobby known as "reloading."

Owning a gun shop just sounds like the most lucrative business you could have. The owners must all secretly vote democrat, they'd be idiots to do anything else.

That and support the NRA, so Wayne can scare the suckers into stocking up every election year when a Democrat is poised to win.


So, what you're saying is that there have been no serious pushes for increased gun control legislation in the past year or so?

Is it shiny in your world?
 
2013-07-07 11:52:50 PM  
I need a couple of 5,000 bricks of small and large pistol primers.  The panic buying can't stop soon enough.  It has been going on for like 4 years now.  when you shoot 10-15,000 rounds a year this shortage is really frustrating.

One would think that there is a market saturation point and we passed it long ago.  That or like the article says...it is a really big bubble about to pop.

I remember in the early 90's before AWB it did the same, and the prices DID come down.  Same thing in the mid 80's machine gun grandfathering.
 
2013-07-07 11:55:51 PM  

knbwhite: HotWingAgenda: This is an article written by the NRA to tell its members that ammunition is super expense and hard to find due to manufacturing shortages, and its obvious intent is to get more people to stock up, since ammo is going to be so hard to find. Did you get to the part of the article where a guy that owns an ammo factory claimed he has so many customers his phones got overloaded and crashed? Motherf*cker, please.

That guy was from Dillon, a company that makes the machines called reloading presses that one uses to assemble the components.  They are not an ammo company.

Those of us who shoot are well aware of the availability of ammo and reloading components.  There are people who compete in sporting competitions and leagues for recreation that go through a fair bit of ammo for practice, and we don't need the NRA or NPR to get the word out on the shortages.   You probably run in to us around your neighborhood.

Even though they downplayed it in the media, there is a great olympic champion you should be aware of.  Google Kim Rhode sometime.


Bingo... I burn through around 3k rounds per month just staying in shape (mostly .45 ACP, 5.56 and 7.62X51).  Primers and certain types of powder are becoming really hard to find.

/Primers are starting to come back on line
//Powder doesn't seem to be much better yet.
 
2013-07-07 11:58:30 PM  

CujoQuarrel: Is NPR really that clueless? I've known people reloading for the last 25 years in order to save money on target shooting ammo. I remember reloading shot gun shells in college close to 40 years ago (ok. I'm old dammit) in order to save money for the skeet and trap shooting classes I was taking.

// Note: Never put 2x the powder in one shotgun shell and 2x the shot in the other.


I only skimmed the article, but I don't see NPR as being clueless.  Not all of us are gun nuts.  I've been aware that people pack their own ammo for a while.  I'm tying hard not to look stupid and use the wrong lingo, but ammo is what guns fire, is it not?

NPR is one of the better news sources out there.  Some of the cable "news" services like to spend a lot of time repeating people's tweets, FFS.

I really miss the old days when I got a paper thrown in my yard every evening and I'd just sit down and read it.  Sure, I only got 1 newspaper delivered each day so it may have been biased, but a lot less of it was opinion and what was opinion was relegated to a few pages of editorials and letters to the editor.

The actual news portion reported what happened, when it happened and how it happened.
 
2013-07-08 01:12:26 AM  
There's a reloading bench in the next room. I don't see the big deal. Most of the factory ammo has inconsistent quality leading to less delicious game. Therefore, we load all ammunition for a particular gun to our preferences.
 
2013-07-08 01:31:18 AM  

Kyoki: Sagus: Kyoki: [www.ttellc.net image 759x1012]

Nice progressive press, what do you reload for?

Oh, btw, there are 2 Dillon Precision 550b's and 1 Dillon 650b in that pic. ;)


What are you trying to make me jealous?
/Rcbs Rock chucker for the win, now off my lawn!
// single stage all the way in 9mm
/// do you use plated bullets
 
2013-07-08 01:33:13 AM  
I_Like_Pie: 5,000 bricks of small and large pistol primers

Good god are you dreaming?
 
2013-07-08 01:37:38 AM  
www.phossil.com
 
2013-07-08 01:52:31 AM  
Sagus (my tablet won't. quote)No not trying man. just got tired of paying someone else to do what I had the ability to do. I've tried moly coated lead bullets in the past without luck, now I'm giving some Sierra Xtreme plated 124gr bullets a try. EIP, I'll keep you posted if you remind me. Take care.
 
2013-07-08 03:14:32 AM  

forgotmydamnusername: I don't know why components wouldn't be scarce too, if fully assembled factory ammo is hard to come by.


Well, they do get to re-use spent casings, but yeah, no one makes their own primers so far as I know.

I also don't understand why survivalists are into re-loading...come the collapse, you have no more primers or modern powder.  Black powder is only easy to make when you have ready access to sulfur and potassium nitrate.  In any scenario where you can't buy powder, you won't be able to buy chemicals used to make powder either.  Does anyone take it as far as trying to process nitrate out of guano on their own?
 
2013-07-08 03:20:02 AM  

wildcardjack: [www.phossil.com image 350x500]


But let's not talk about the the fine, upstanding men who have undertaken field tests of various firearms. Those who have demonstrated their ease of use, magazine capacity, quick reloading time, and grievous bodily harm.
 
2013-07-08 06:02:25 AM  

zerkalo: wildcardjack: [www.phossil.com image 350x500]

But let's not talk about the the fine, upstanding men who have undertaken field tests of various firearms. Those who have demonstrated their ease of use, magazine capacity, quick reloading time, and grievous bodily harm.


Exactly!  Bless you boys!

cdn.cnwimg.com
 
2013-07-08 07:28:15 AM  
For quality control reasons alone, I don't see the point in making your own.  It isn't about how much you care.  It's about metrology.  It's about geometry differences that the naked eye misses and basic tools aren't designed to measure.  If you make your own, then you probably love your guns too much to use it on them.
 
2013-07-08 07:44:34 AM  

Recoil Therapy: I really was interested in hearing about how he could jacket his bullets or if not then what he was doing about lead fouling.


Greased linen patches.
 
2013-07-08 07:49:01 AM  

Dracolich: For quality control reasons alone, I don't see the point in making your own.  It isn't about how much you care.  It's about metrology.  It's about geometry differences that the naked eye misses and basic tools aren't designed to measure.  If you make your own, then you probably love your guns too much to use it on them.


Actually, you can hand-load ammunition to much finer tolerances than most factory made ammunition.

In fact, most serious bench-rest competitors (the guys who shoot quarter-inch groups at 200 yards) reload their own ammo, because they can adjust the particular load to their gun, and they can take the time to make it more consistent than pretty much any mass-produced factory load.

What you wrote is pretty much 180 degrees opposite of the reality of the situation.  Reloading your own ammo actually has the potential to be more accurate than any factory can possibly make it.  Not everyone who reloads does so for that reason, of course, but the potential is definitely there.
 
2013-07-08 07:56:11 AM  

HotWingAgenda: CujoQuarrel: Is NPR really that clueless? .

No, they're not. This is an article written by the NRA to tell its members that ammunition is super expense and hard to find due to manufacturing shortages, and its obvious intent is to get more people to stock up, since ammo is going to be so hard to find. Did you get to the part of the article where a guy that owns an ammo factory claimed he has so many customers his phones got overloaded and crashed? Motherf*cker, please.


Yes, because NPR is a well-know right wing mouthpiece.
 
2013-07-08 08:01:53 AM  

Triptolemus: //I recently found some 165 gr. .30 caliber game king bullets at my local walmart after trying to find them everywhere. . . I squealed like a little girl.


Back when I used to shoot a modern rifle for hunting, I *LOVED* the 165 grain .30 caliber Sierra GameKings.  In my gun, they shot to the same point of aim as the 168 grain MatchKings, so I didn't have to change my sights to bounce between hunting and target ammo.

Plus, their terminal performance on deer was superb.  They expanded correctly without blowing up like some 150 grain bullets I had used prior to that.

The problem was that it just got too easy for me to hunt deer with a scoped .30'06 bolt action.  I got bored with being able to reliably drop a deer from over 100 yards away.  So now I just exclusively hunt with either the flintlock, or my longbow.
 
2013-07-08 08:03:16 AM  

dittybopper: Recoil Therapy: I really was interested in hearing about how he could jacket his bullets or if not then what he was doing about lead fouling.

Greased linen patches.


Well certainly if we're talking about shooting something like that beautiful flintlock of yours.  However I'm sure that's NOT what the NPR type had in mind when writing the story.  After all his talk on making bullets, I was just wondering how he managed to keep his 'Glock' clean when shooting all that unjacketed soft lead (especially knowing about the true Glock's notorious fouling issues).
 
2013-07-08 08:04:17 AM  

dittybopper: Dracolich: For quality control reasons alone, I don't see the point in making your own.  It isn't about how much you care.  It's about metrology.  It's about geometry differences that the naked eye misses and basic tools aren't designed to measure.  If you make your own, then you probably love your guns too much to use it on them.

Actually, you can hand-load ammunition to much finer tolerances than most factory made ammunition.

In fact, most serious bench-rest competitors (the guys who shoot quarter-inch groups at 200 yards) reload their own ammo, because they can adjust the particular load to their gun, and they can take the time to make it more consistent than pretty much any mass-produced factory load.

What you wrote is pretty much 180 degrees opposite of the reality of the situation.  Reloading your own ammo actually has the potential to be more accurate than any factory can possibly make it.  Not everyone who reloads does so for that reason, of course, but the potential is definitely there.


I'm willing to bet that your statement is more of a boast than something of comparable SPC and TQM data.  If I had a nickel for every time I heard a home-made quality boast...
 
2013-07-08 08:11:26 AM  

Kyoki: Sagus (my tablet won't. quote)No not trying man. just got tired of paying someone else to do what I had the ability to do. I've tried moly coated lead bullets in the past without luck, now I'm giving some Sierra Xtreme plated 124gr bullets a try. EIP, I'll keep you posted if you remind me. Take care.


Try Barry's plated or xtreme plated bullets they worked well for me in the 9mm. You need to load them about half way on the jacketed powder charge
http://www.berrysmfg.com/
http://www.xtremebullets.com/
 
2013-07-08 08:13:01 AM  

flondrix: forgotmydamnusername: I don't know why components wouldn't be scarce too, if fully assembled factory ammo is hard to come by.

Well, they do get to re-use spent casings, but yeah, no one makes their own primers so far as I know.

I also don't understand why survivalists are into re-loading...come the collapse, you have no more primers or modern powder.  Black powder is only easy to make when you have ready access to sulfur and potassium nitrate.  In any scenario where you can't buy powder, you won't be able to buy chemicals used to make powder either.  Does anyone take it as far as trying to process nitrate out of guano on their own?


Actually, the chemistry to make your own primers is over 200 years old now.  Nobody really does it because it's been cheaper just to buy new ones, but you can reload primers using paper caps (like your old capguns used), old-timey percussion caps (which are still sold), and even the tips of strike anywhere matches.

As far as making powder, there is an article in the current issue of "Backwoodsman" magazine on how to make your own potassium nitrate from chicken poop.  There are any number of articles on the internet or even in old books that tell you precisely how to make black powder and how to get it's components.

Sulfur is of course a problem, but you can make black powder without the sulfur.  It's harder to ignite, but that's really only a problem with flintlock-type guns.  I'm guessing it would work in percussion or center-fire cartridge type guns.
 
2013-07-08 08:25:34 AM  

Dracolich: dittybopper: Dracolich: For quality control reasons alone, I don't see the point in making your own.  It isn't about how much you care.  It's about metrology.  It's about geometry differences that the naked eye misses and basic tools aren't designed to measure.  If you make your own, then you probably love your guns too much to use it on them.

Actually, you can hand-load ammunition to much finer tolerances than most factory made ammunition.

In fact, most serious bench-rest competitors (the guys who shoot quarter-inch groups at 200 yards) reload their own ammo, because they can adjust the particular load to their gun, and they can take the time to make it more consistent than pretty much any mass-produced factory load.

What you wrote is pretty much 180 degrees opposite of the reality of the situation.  Reloading your own ammo actually has the potential to be more accurate than any factory can possibly make it.  Not everyone who reloads does so for that reason, of course, but the potential is definitely there.

I'm willing to bet that your statement is more of a boast than something of comparable SPC and TQM data.  If I had a nickel for every time I heard a home-made quality boast...


The most common caliber used for bench rest shooting is the 6mm PPC.   To my knowledge, there is no significant commercial manufacturing of that round.  It is almost exclusively handloaded.

That's because a person sitting at a reloading bench can precisely measure out exact measures of powder to a much greater degree than a machine can by weighing each and every single powder charge on a precision scale, which ammo manufacturers don't (and really *CAN'T*) do.  Also, a person with a set of micrometers can measure things like case length to the closest thousandths of an inch, along with case diameter, neck wall thickness,  etc. for every single individual cartridge case, and they can reject any that don't fit their exacting requirements.   Again, manufacturers can't really do that.

You can buy some pretty darn good target ammunition commercially:  I used to get Federal Premium .30'06 Springfield with the 168 grain Sierra MatchKing bullets, and those would shoot groups of under an inch at 100 yards in my Remington 700 ADL long action until the barrel warmed up.  That's excellent accuracy from a basic hunting rifle, btw.

However, that doesn't match the potential that you can get from a target rifle shooting handloaded 6mm PPC, where groups are commonly 0.200" at 200 yards.
 
2013-07-08 08:28:40 AM  

Dracolich: I'm willing to bet that your statement is more of a boast than something of comparable SPC and TQM data.  If I had a nickel for every time I heard a home-made quality boast...


BTW, while I do have a single-stage press, case trimmer, capper, and a few other reloading doo-dads, I don't reload, unless of course you count shooting the flintlock as 'reloading'.

I should look into getting some .30'06 dies.
 
2013-07-08 08:57:12 AM  

Sagus: CujoQuarrel: Is NPR really that clueless? I've known people reloading for the last 25 years in order to save money on target shooting ammo. I remember reloading shot gun shells in college close to 40 years ago (ok. I'm old dammit) in order to save money for the skeet and trap shooting classes I was taking.

// Note: Never put 2x the powder in one shotgun shell and 2x the shot in the other.

I hope you caught your mistake, the double charge could blow your weapons action to pieces


Actually, it probably wouldn't, because there was nothing in front of it except perhaps for a lightweight wad.  In essence, it would be a blank.

Now, a double charge behind an ounce of shot (if that's possible), *WOULD* be a safety problem, but that's not what  CujoQuarrel says happened:  He put double powder in one shell, and double shot in the other, so the implication is no shot in shell A, and no powder in shell B.
 
2013-07-08 09:00:46 AM  

Kyoki: Sagus:

Nice progressive press, what do you reload for?

Just mil calibers, 5.56, 7.62x51 and 9mm.


Nice, I have a plastic shopping bag full of brass that I've fired this year with those calibers, and plan on doing some re-loading this winter.
 
2013-07-08 09:21:50 AM  

Barfmaker: Owning a gun shop just sounds like the most lucrative business you could have. The owners must all secretly vote democrat, they'd be idiots to do anything else.


Mine does. 'Gun control' just means his aging, not-so-computer-savvy competition can't keep up with his business as well, 'scandals' mean sales and he's making a fortune just by being the most gay-friendly shop in town. Lesbians, trans folk and gay guys do actually tend to love them some guns. You wouldn't think so to look at the NRA, but yeah, the pink dollar buys some serious ammo.

But then, he had the sense to lay in a lavish supply of .22 LR, reasoning that after the panic of 'Obama got re-elected oh noes!' died down, there'd be a demand for more inexpensive plinking ammo as newbie shooters from both sides came to see what all the fuss was about. And then Newtown happened.

I understand he bought a boat recently.

Me, I'm spending the ammo drought restoring a Mosin Nagant rifle. It's reliable, fun and still fairly cheap to shoot and so very inexpensive, I could afford two, one for use and one to experiment with. (I swear, I couldn't smell a thing but cosmoline for days, but it's so worth it.) I've stripped the stock down and am refinishing it with multiple hand-rubbed coats of linseed oil to bring up the grain and as soon as I finish designing it, I'm going to add little handmade brass inlays like the ones you see on old Kentucky rifles from the 1700s to the one side, and I'm planning to route out a little place where I can put in a 'patch box' like the Kentucky rifles had for a little miniature survival kit, as well as just enough lead to maintain the balance.

Then I shall use it for minimalist-camping during deer season and as a display piece, hung next to a machete, kukri and this old military-surplus entrenchment tool husband found at a flea market for $5 and is restoring/modifying into the 'Lobo' from Max Brooks' books.  We thought zombie-slayer chic mixed with Forties-style pinups would be best for the den. My fancy Mosin should look splendid next to the kegerator we're building from a dorm minifridge into an old military-surplus foot locker.
 
2013-07-08 09:31:00 AM  

SpiderQueenDemon: Lesbians, trans folk and gay guys do actually tend to love them some guns. You wouldn't think so to look at the NRA, but yeah, the pink dollar buys some serious ammo.


Like the saying goes, "You can't bash a .38".
 
2013-07-08 09:31:58 AM  

HotWingAgenda: CujoQuarrel: Is NPR really that clueless? .

No, they're not. This is an article written by the NRA to tell its members that ammunition is super expense and hard to find due to manufacturing shortages, and its obvious intent is to get more people to stock up, since ammo is going to be so hard to find. Did you get to the part of the article where a guy that owns an ammo factory claimed he has so many customers his phones got overloaded and crashed? Motherf*cker, please.


You need your eyes checked or a quick google search.

Dillon precision makes reloading presses, not ammo.
 
2013-07-08 09:36:36 AM  

Kyoki: I'm getting a kick out of all these replies. There is a perfect storm of commodity panic (brass, lead and copper being used in emerging markets in China and India), along with ammo panic due to fear mongering from outside industry pundits, some panic due to knee jerk laws like the news ones here in Colorado and a host of other factors. People are really really scared.

And really really dumb.

I believe the story of the guys at Dillon Precision having to purchase phones, its been a madhouse since SHOT Show in January.


Nice, 650xl? What do you think of it vs a super1050?

I'm working with some (shudder) lee pro 1000 presses right now but I'm looking at upgrading in the next month or two. The lees are not bad for low volume stuff but I've started to get into uspsa more and as my round counts go up the lees start to break more.
 
2013-07-08 09:42:32 AM  

AngryDragon: zerkalo: wildcardjack: [www.phossil.com image 350x500]

But let's not talk about the the fine, upstanding men who have undertaken field tests of various firearms. Those who have demonstrated their ease of use, magazine capacity, quick reloading time, and grievous bodily harm.

Exactly!  Bless you boys!


Do you have a pic of the NYPD clowns that went to that homicide and committed a mass shooting?
 
2013-07-08 10:03:54 AM  

Dracolich: dittybopper: Dracolich: For quality control reasons alone, I don't see the point in making your own.  It isn't about how much you care.  It's about metrology.  It's about geometry differences that the naked eye misses and basic tools aren't designed to measure.  If you make your own, then you probably love your guns too much to use it on them.

Actually, you can hand-load ammunition to much finer tolerances than most factory made ammunition.

In fact, most serious bench-rest competitors (the guys who shoot quarter-inch groups at 200 yards) reload their own ammo, because they can adjust the particular load to their gun, and they can take the time to make it more consistent than pretty much any mass-produced factory load.

What you wrote is pretty much 180 degrees opposite of the reality of the situation.  Reloading your own ammo actually has the potential to be more accurate than any factory can possibly make it.  Not everyone who reloads does so for that reason, of course, but the potential is definitely there.

I'm willing to bet that your statement is more of a boast than something of comparable SPC and TQM data.  If I had a nickel for every time I heard a home-made quality boast...


Maybe you should spend less time running your mouth and more time on google/working on your loads.

Search "6.5 creedmoor" or "6mm ppc" with "hand loads"

I'll leave the reading to you.

Basic tools you will need - chamber check gauge - dial caliper - micrometer - runout meter - electronic scale - powder measure - propane torch for annealing - bucket of water - tray of water filled to the start of the shoulder on the brass - reloading press (I recommend single stage for bench rest work)


Or look at up 230gr round nose over 3.7 clays 1.22oal (what my pistol loves)

That combo in a 1911 gives you nothing but 10ring if you're up for it. Closer and it's just a ragged hole.
 
2013-07-08 10:24:30 AM  

HotWingAgenda: CujoQuarrel: Is NPR really that clueless? .

No, they're not. This is an article written by the NRA to tell its members that ammunition is super expense and hard to find due to manufacturing shortages, and its obvious intent is to get more people to stock up, since ammo is going to be so hard to find. Did you get to the part of the article where a guy that owns an ammo factory claimed he has so many customers his phones got overloaded and crashed? Motherf*cker, please.


NRA members listen to NPR?   Actually, NRA members (and most gun owners) already know ammo is hard to find and expensive when you do find it.  This is a typical concern troll story to their target audience to start getting worried their "redneck" neighbor is going to blow up their house by storing powder for reloading.
 
2013-07-08 10:32:33 AM  

Dracolich: dittybopper: Dracolich: For quality control reasons alone, I don't see the point in making your own.  It isn't about how much you care.  It's about metrology.  It's about geometry differences that the naked eye misses and basic tools aren't designed to measure.  If you make your own, then you probably love your guns too much to use it on them.

Actually, you can hand-load ammunition to much finer tolerances than most factory made ammunition.

In fact, most serious bench-rest competitors (the guys who shoot quarter-inch groups at 200 yards) reload their own ammo, because they can adjust the particular load to their gun, and they can take the time to make it more consistent than pretty much any mass-produced factory load.

What you wrote is pretty much 180 degrees opposite of the reality of the situation.  Reloading your own ammo actually has the potential to be more accurate than any factory can possibly make it.  Not everyone who reloads does so for that reason, of course, but the potential is definitely there.

I'm willing to bet that your statement is more of a boast than something of comparable SPC and TQM data.  If I had a nickel for every time I heard a home-made quality boast...


You could not be more wrong if you were really trying.

One of the primary reasons to reload (beyond the cost issue) is to produce ammunition of much higher quality and much tighter tolerance than factory ammunition, and/or to produce loads specifically tailored to a given purpose.

Tell you what, do a search for reloading forums on the internet.  What you'll find is generally a bunch of discussion as to how you can get your resizing operation more precise because someone is currently running +/- 0.001", or how to meter out IMR 4064 because this other guy is only getting +/- 0.3 of a grain.   Then get on a website like Sinclair International, Graf's and Son's or MidwayUSA and look for reloading tools. It's pretty easy to drop a grand on tools to mic everything down to a thousandths of an inch.

I'm not saying that after that you'd have any idea what you were talking about, but you might just realize how wrong you are.
 
2013-07-08 10:36:59 AM  

youmightberight: Dracolich: dittybopper: Dracolich: For quality control reasons alone, I don't see the point in making your own.  It isn't about how much you care.  It's about metrology.  It's about geometry differences that the naked eye misses and basic tools aren't designed to measure.  If you make your own, then you probably love your guns too much to use it on them.

Actually, you can hand-load ammunition to much finer tolerances than most factory made ammunition.

In fact, most serious bench-rest competitors (the guys who shoot quarter-inch groups at 200 yards) reload their own ammo, because they can adjust the particular load to their gun, and they can take the time to make it more consistent than pretty much any mass-produced factory load.

What you wrote is pretty much 180 degrees opposite of the reality of the situation.  Reloading your own ammo actually has the potential to be more accurate than any factory can possibly make it.  Not everyone who reloads does so for that reason, of course, but the potential is definitely there.

I'm willing to bet that your statement is more of a boast than something of comparable SPC and TQM data.  If I had a nickel for every time I heard a home-made quality boast...

Maybe you should spend less time running your mouth and more time on google/working on your loads.

Search "6.5 creedmoor" or "6mm ppc" with "hand loads"

I'll leave the reading to you.

Basic tools you will need - chamber check gauge - dial caliper - micrometer - runout meter - electronic scale - powder measure - propane torch for annealing - bucket of water - tray of water filled to the start of the shoulder on the brass - reloading press (I recommend single stage for bench rest work)


Or look at up 230gr round nose over 3.7 clays 1.22oal (what my pistol loves)

That combo in a 1911 gives you nothing but 10ring if you're up for it. Closer and it's just a ragged hole.


I need to dial in a load with Clays and 185gr. LSWC.  I had been running 4.2gr. of Bullseye for IDPA, but it's getting really hard to come by.  I grabbed 16 pounds of Clays based on everyone raving about it, so I can save my remaining Bullseye for full-power ball.

Does it run as clean as everyone says it does?
 
2013-07-08 10:41:59 AM  

SpiderQueenDemon


Me, I'm spending the ammo drought restoring a Mosin Nagant rifle. It's reliable, fun and still fairly cheap to shoot and so very inexpensive, I could afford two, one for use and one to experiment with. (I swear, I couldn't smell a thing but cosmoline for days, but it's so worth it.) I've stripped the stock down and am refinishing it with multiple hand-rubbed coats of linseed oil to bring up the grain and as soon as I finish designing it, I'm going to add little handmade brass inlays like the ones you see on old Kentucky rifles from the 1700s to the one side, and I'm planning to route out a little place where I can put in a 'patch box' like the Kentucky rifles had for a little miniature survival kit, as well as just enough lead to maintain the balance.


The 91/30 weighs almost nine pounds, and most of that is in the receiver area. I don't think routing a little bit of wood out of the stock will affect the balance all that much. I'll assume you're working on something like a wartime round receiver (of which bajillions were made) and not something comparatively rare or interesting.

Is the stock original or is it a Cold War refurb (birch) stock?

And cosmo is a nice smell. :-)
 
2013-07-08 10:42:36 AM  

youmightberight: Kyoki: I'm getting a kick out of all these replies. There is a perfect storm of commodity panic (brass, lead and copper being used in emerging markets in China and India), along with ammo panic due to fear mongering from outside industry pundits, some panic due to knee jerk laws like the news ones here in Colorado and a host of other factors. People are really really scared.

And really really dumb.

I believe the story of the guys at Dillon Precision having to purchase phones, its been a madhouse since SHOT Show in January.

Nice, 650xl? What do you think of it vs a super1050?

I'm working with some (shudder) lee pro 1000 presses right now but I'm looking at upgrading in the next month or two. The lees are not bad for low volume stuff but I've started to get into uspsa more and as my round counts go up the lees start to break more.


If you're looking to upgrade a Lee 1000, give the Hornady L-N-L progressive a hard look.  I've cranked out 10's of thousands of rounds of rounds on it and I LOVE it.  Feature-wise, it's about the equivalent of the Dillon 650.  While they're both solid choices, I think the Dillon is probably a little faster for reloading pistol rounds, and the Hornady is probably a little better for bottleneck rifle rounds.

The Hornady is a solid choice, at a good price and really easy to upgrade with case feeders, bullet feeders, etc.  With my case feeder I can crank out 600-700 rounds per hours without breaking a sweat.
 
2013-07-08 10:51:37 AM  
And clueless people don't understand why I would "need" to buy 500 rounds of ammo at a time. If I find it on sale, I get it. I got lucky and bought a bunch right before Obama got elected and the morons panicked, and I got some for my .45 in between the first panic and the second. As a result, I can go shooting when I want, and don't have to scour the shelves hoping that I can find a store that not only has some ammo in stock, but isn't charging a kidney and a leg for a 20 round box.

And no, the shortage isn't from the war, it's from all of these morons screaming about how Obama's coming fer their guns, and buying up all the available supplies.
 
2013-07-08 11:00:00 AM  

Dracolich: dittybopper: Dracolich: For quality control reasons alone, I don't see the point in making your own.  It isn't about how much you care.  It's about metrology.  It's about geometry differences that the naked eye misses and basic tools aren't designed to measure.  If you make your own, then you probably love your guns too much to use it on them.

Actually, you can hand-load ammunition to much finer tolerances than most factory made ammunition.

In fact, most serious bench-rest competitors (the guys who shoot quarter-inch groups at 200 yards) reload their own ammo, because they can adjust the particular load to their gun, and they can take the time to make it more consistent than pretty much any mass-produced factory load.

What you wrote is pretty much 180 degrees opposite of the reality of the situation.  Reloading your own ammo actually has the potential to be more accurate than any factory can possibly make it.  Not everyone who reloads does so for that reason, of course, but the potential is definitely there.

I'm willing to bet that your statement is more of a boast than something of comparable SPC and TQM data.  If I had a nickel for every time I heard a home-made quality boast...


You just don't understand the economics and realities of cartridge production.

First point- cartridges are churned out by the thousands. Ammunition manufacturing is more akin to fireworks manufacture than precision machining. They do use process control, but the name of the game is quantity not quality.

Second point- there are two variables in precision shooting: the ammunition and the gun. Even if the cartridges produced by the factory are perfectly identical, there is no guarantee that those cartridges will perform equally well in two guns of the same make and model. There are some military sniper programs that try to have perfectly reproducible rifles AND ammunition, so that any shooter can use any rifle and ammo, but those are predictably very expensive operations. Worth noting, those operations also use hand loaded ammunition, not factory loaded.

Hence, has been said multiple times already, people reload so that they can match their ammunition to their specific guns, and they can (and do) achieve better tolerances than factory-made ammunition.
 
2013-07-08 12:27:39 PM  

Ontos: youmightberight: Dracolich: dittybopper: Dracolich: For quality control reasons alone, I don't see the point in making your own.  It isn't about how much you care.  It's about metrology.  It's about geometry differences that the naked eye misses and basic tools aren't designed to measure.  If you make your own, then you probably love your guns too much to use it on them.

Actually, you can hand-load ammunition to much finer tolerances than most factory made ammunition.

In fact, most serious bench-rest competitors (the guys who shoot quarter-inch groups at 200 yards) reload their own ammo, because they can adjust the particular load to their gun, and they can take the time to make it more consistent than pretty much any mass-produced factory load.

What you wrote is pretty much 180 degrees opposite of the reality of the situation.  Reloading your own ammo actually has the potential to be more accurate than any factory can possibly make it.  Not everyone who reloads does so for that reason, of course, but the potential is definitely there.

I'm willing to bet that your statement is more of a boast than something of comparable SPC and TQM data.  If I had a nickel for every time I heard a home-made quality boast...

Maybe you should spend less time running your mouth and more time on google/working on your loads.

Search "6.5 creedmoor" or "6mm ppc" with "hand loads"

I'll leave the reading to you.

Basic tools you will need - chamber check gauge - dial caliper - micrometer - runout meter - electronic scale - powder measure - propane torch for annealing - bucket of water - tray of water filled to the start of the shoulder on the brass - reloading press (I recommend single stage for bench rest work)


Or look at up 230gr round nose over 3.7 clays 1.22oal (what my pistol loves)

That combo in a 1911 gives you nothing but 10ring if you're up for it. Closer and it's just a ragged hole.

I need to dial in a load with Clays and 185gr. LSWC.  I had been running 4.2gr. of Bullseye for IDPA, but it's getting really hard to come by.  I grabbed 16 pounds of Clays based on everyone raving about it, so I can save my remaining Bullseye for full-power ball.

Does it run as clean as everyone says it does?


It's fairly clean but if you have ANY wet oil on your gun it will gunk into something akin to tar.

I think it's 4.2 gr of clays under a 185 swc. I'd have to break out my bible to be sure though.
 
2013-07-08 12:42:20 PM  

Ontos: youmightberight: Kyoki: I'm getting a kick out of all these replies. There is a perfect storm of commodity panic (brass, lead and copper being used in emerging markets in China and India), along with ammo panic due to fear mongering from outside industry pundits, some panic due to knee jerk laws like the news ones here in Colorado and a host of other factors. People are really really scared.

And really really dumb.

I believe the story of the guys at Dillon Precision having to purchase phones, its been a madhouse since SHOT Show in January.

Nice, 650xl? What do you think of it vs a super1050?

I'm working with some (shudder) lee pro 1000 presses right now but I'm looking at upgrading in the next month or two. The lees are not bad for low volume stuff but I've started to get into uspsa more and as my round counts go up the lees start to break more.

If you're looking to upgrade a Lee 1000, give the Hornady L-N-L progressive a hard look.  I've cranked out 10's of thousands of rounds of rounds on it and I LOVE it.  Feature-wise, it's about the equivalent of the Dillon 650.  While they're both solid choices, I think the Dillon is probably a little faster for reloading pistol rounds, and the Hornady is probably a little better for bottleneck rifle rounds.

The Hornady is a solid choice, at a good price and really easy to upgrade with case feeders, bullet feeders, etc.  With my case feeder I can crank out 600-700 rounds per hours without breaking a sweat.


I've loaded around 10k on my lee. It's been good and its pretty quick (45acp is hard to screw up though) I run a single stage with a lee FCD for final crimp and just so I can slow down and look at the round for less obvious defects. Then it goes to chamber check and then into the box. Plated for comp and lead for practice. I like xtreme and rainier for plated and use local JK lead for practice.
 
2013-07-08 01:30:24 PM  
IMO the Dillon 650 with their case feeder and a Mr BulletFeeder is the best of both worlds. Less expensive than the 1050, lifetime warranty and fairly simple and reliable.

You don't get a couple of features that you can add to the 1050 like the swager for crimped brass, or the trimmer option, but I do all that seperately anyhow.

Regarding the X-treme plated bullets, I said Sierra up there, but they are the Carson City NV version, not Sierra. Anyhow, I use 5.9gr of PowerPistol since everyone is saying use jacketed data.
 
2013-07-08 03:28:50 PM  
For plated I always use plain lead load data. I'm not sure what the presure curve looks like compared to jacketed data as I'm only shooting for major pf and a little room for error 170ish pf
 
2013-07-08 04:38:13 PM  

youmightberight: For plated I always use plain lead load data. I'm not sure what the presure curve looks like compared to jacketed data as I'm only shooting for major pf and a little room for error 170ish pf


I've always used jacket loads for my plated .45ACP, and I use exclusively plated these days.  I've never had a problem, but the .45 is probably pretty forgiving, with its low velocity.
 
2013-07-08 06:05:38 PM  

Kyoki: IMO the Dillon 650 with their case feeder and a Mr BulletFeeder is the best of both worlds. Less expensive than the 1050, lifetime warranty and fairly simple and reliable.

You don't get a couple of features that you can add to the 1050 like the swager for crimped brass, or the trimmer option, but I do all that seperately anyhow.

Regarding the X-treme plated bullets, I said Sierra up there, but they are the Carson City NV version, not Sierra. Anyhow, I use 5.9gr of PowerPistol since everyone is saying use jacketed data.


I've heard the same regarding the X-treme's... Supposedly they have an extra thick plating so you should use jacked data or some such?  Anyways, I've been using jacketed data and they've been A-OK.
 
2013-07-08 09:35:29 PM  

Ontos: Kyoki: IMO the Dillon 650 with their case feeder and a Mr BulletFeeder is the best of both worlds. Less expensive than the 1050, lifetime warranty and fairly simple and reliable.

You don't get a couple of features that you can add to the 1050 like the swager for crimped brass, or the trimmer option, but I do all that seperately anyhow.

Regarding the X-treme plated bullets, I said Sierra up there, but they are the Carson City NV version, not Sierra. Anyhow, I use 5.9gr of PowerPistol since everyone is saying use jacketed data.

I've heard the same regarding the X-treme's... Supposedly they have an extra thick plating so you should use jacked data or some such?  Anyways, I've been using jacketed data and they've been A-OK.


For my 9mm, with xtreme plated hollow points. I use Power Pistol @ 4.9 gr. Everything function fine, has a seasonable mild recoil.

/ Is this thread in Fark being taking over by reloaders  passing reloading data
// Are we making  few people paranoid?
 
2013-07-08 09:37:25 PM  

Sagus: Ontos: Kyoki: IMO the Dillon 650 with their case feeder and a Mr BulletFeeder is the best of both worlds. Less expensive than the 1050, lifetime warranty and fairly simple and reliable.

You don't get a couple of features that you can add to the 1050 like the swager for crimped brass, or the trimmer option, but I do all that seperately anyhow.

Regarding the X-treme plated bullets, I said Sierra up there, but they are the Carson City NV version, not Sierra. Anyhow, I use 5.9gr of PowerPistol since everyone is saying use jacketed data.

I've heard the same regarding the X-treme's... Supposedly they have an extra thick plating so you should use jacked data or some such?  Anyways, I've been using jacketed data and they've been A-OK.

For my 9mm, with xtreme plated hollow points. I use Power Pistol @ 4.9 gr. Everything function fine, has a seasonable mild recoil.

/ Is this thread in Fark being taking over by reloaders  passing reloading data
// Are we making  few people paranoid?


Fark that was supposed to be reasonable
 
2013-07-08 11:46:29 PM  

youmightberight: I'm working with some (shudder) lee pro 1000 presses right now but I'm looking at upgrading in the next month or two.


I recently brought out my 25 year old pro 1000 to load some 9mm, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies.  Same as I remember.  Keep the primer feeder full and put a rubber band around the cover.  Maintain a medium speed on the lever all the way through the stroke so the primers get the right amount of shake to drop them down, etc.  That thing can really crank them out when everything is working though.  I also reload shotgun shells on a MEC, and it requires a similar amount of attention to the primers and sliding parts.
 
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