Had nothing to do with the cost of employing Americans vs. Indians.

Has everything to do with the cost of employing Americans vs. Indians. Why pay some schmuck with an "I'm entitled" attitude and if you're lucky a relevant degree when in Hyderabad you can hire a PhD that speaks 3 or more languages for $18K p.a. or less who'll kiss your ass everyday for the chance to earn some money.

boils down to the cash the CEO's can pocket.


what's there to debate about ?

Bangalore techies work smarter, cheaper, harder. Why do these links keep getting greenlighted? In other news buggy whip manufacturers may face economic troubles with the invention of the automobile.

2001: "Blame the layoffs on 9/11, and Clinton"
2002: "Blame the layoffs on cheaper outsourcing, and 9/11"
2003: "Blame the layoffs on hypothetical bad employees, and cheaper outsourcing, and uh, no I guess we can't milk 9/11"
2004: "Blame the layoffs on the previous layoffs who have now been laid off"
2005: "All corrupt CEOs that were not killed in the revolution were sent to India"

Greed is good.

/Gecko

pretty much hit that one on the nose.

my mother-in-laws company, E-funds, outsources to india because of the dirtcheap labor and the fact that indians have a high aptitude for mathematics. they can do mind-boggling mathematic equations in their head.

ah, this is why I dropped my CS major.

I thought stupid kids and bad schools were the reason for words like "ur" and "roxor"

Well, you have to admit that the american school system isn't particularly known for it's excellence.

This is why we should have elected Perot back in '92. Or '96. Don't go crying to him tomorrow, when all the country's jobs have gone flying down the crapper and you're out of luck. Don't go crying into his gigantic, floppy ears.

They have a point about Bush's education policy of "Test the students, then fudge the numbers so it looks they are learning things." Our education system is turning into an assembly line to produce drones for coporations.

However the companies in this article can not claim that this is the reason that they are moving jobs overseas as the poeple of age that they are looking to hire are not victims of this disturbing trend.

Because techs who spent time and money on training and certs won't work for minimum wage, they feel it's ok to send the jobs overseas.

I hope they all die slow, horrible, lingering deaths that involve some sort of fungus or rash.

Tech companies cite stupid kids, bad schools as reason they are moving their tech jobs to India

great, so we can blame politicians for the same reasons, and then outsource them as well. PROFIT FOR THE USofA

Companies dont care about the people of the United States, just the ones who hold their stock.

While a lot of this has to do with just finding cheaper labor, which is corporate greed and bad, there is something else behind the trend. The simple fact is that American schools often do not prepare students very well in general, and specifically in math and science. Also, American students on the whole view math and science as a waste of time.

For example, on a Family Feud (hey, it comes on right before Jeopardy), the question was "Name subjects in school which are not useful to you" or something along those lines. Of course Science was first and Math second with the two taking like 85% of the whole.

Lets get real here folks, Americans are poorly educated in many cases and expect to be paid more. Sorry, but there is a problem here, and its not all greedy CEOs.

I know quite a few math/science/cs people from other parts of the world and on the whole they come in with a far superior knowledge of math/science than I or many of my American peers came into college with.

Yet funding for American education contintues to be pretty bad, and now with that stupid "No Child Left Behind" business teachers spend a lot of time teaching test taking skills, not useful knowledge. Plus you always have the "New Math" attitude running around which is just nonsense.

Make them choose between outsourcing jobs or keeping their tax breaks. They'll suddenly think of many reasons to keep jobs from going overseas.

HenryFnord

Why pay some schmuck with an "I'm entitled" attitude and if you're lucky a relevant degree when in Hyderabad you can hire a PhD that speaks 3 or more languages for $18K p.a.

And if you're really lucky, they'll speak English perfectly when you get routed to their call centre.

You'll need to translate it into 'mer'c'n, though....

sorry, Krazikarl.. I am not hip. What is the "New Math" attitude?

There are around 300 million people in this country. You would think they could actually find a few hundred thousand who were educated enough to do white-collar and tech-work.

I think it's just them trying to justify paying people crap wages. Now what's really going to be interesting is how they respond when the Indians or Chinese start demanding higher wages.

So they are saying we have shiatty schools... then moving jobs to India, the Phillipines, Indonesia, and Eastern Europe... because we all know their educational systems are oh so superior.

KoolAid Man's Fluffer:

I'm a cs grad, June this year. I have a decent paying job. If you know what you're doing and enjoy programming, there's work for you all over the place. And good paying work, too.

"Hey Billy, are you a proud hardwarking American who believes in freedom and capitalism? You aren't some damn commie who has everything handed to him on a plate, are ya?"

"No sir! Communists can go to hell! We're Americans."

"Well good Billy, because I'm giving this job to an Indian guy who's smarter than you and will work for less. Your degree in Communications and desire for a high salary to support your SUV/DVD player lifestyle does not benefit my company."

"Indian??! That isn't very American of you sir!!"

"Oh Billy, the irony of what you say."

People, history tells us when a man has it good, he screams capitalism. When he has it bad, he screams socialism. The dog eat dog world we create eventually does come back to bite us in the ass. Now the question is are we brave enough to stay the course? Or are we gonna go Euro? The choice is ours. Still, it is amusing when these little moments in economic history happen. Hypocrites galore come crawling out of the woodwork.

If you think that employers are going to India for smarts, you should check out the want ads of some Indian body shops.

hahahahhahaahah

This isn't even funny, just today I recieved a letter from my former graduate school saying they can't re-admit any more graduate students (read: can't get back in to get a PhD after getting a Master's) due to budget cuts. I think I was the only one in the department who spoke American or English.

It's a very immature attitude, really.

"We want people who are highly motivated, highly skilled, and highly intelligent. But those darn potential employees actually want to be paid what they're worth, instead of next to nothing ... so selfish! How are we going to be able to afford my five-million-dollar salary if we do that!? We'll go find some people who have no choice but to take any job we give them!"

Outsourced labor is, plain and simple, dumping. A foreign power is selling its product for less than it is worth purely to steal business from domestic traders. We should deal with it the same way we did in the 18th century -- tariffs. HUGE tariffs. LOTS of tariffs. Make it so that it costs five times more to outsource than to hire locals, and let other countries get their own damned economies.

SmitetheRighteous, you make a good point, a very good point indeed..

I'm willing to work for less, but whenever I get an interview they tell me I'm overqualified!

Kind of an overview of New Math and other similar programs. They are a big part of the problem mentioned in the article I think:

http://mathematicallycorrect.com/intro.htm#doyou

Gee, why don't these companies try to get people from Humboldt County? I'm sure we would work for alot less then people in San Fran, and we are only 300 miles away.

I say we tax the unholy fark outta these companies, just for shiats and giggles.

SmitetheRighteous you would have a point if it weren't for the massive tax breaks and government funding that these companies enjoy. Not only do they want to keep this money, but they want the government to increase the amount while the companies send jobs overseas. As I said before, they should be given the choice of either outsourcing jobs (and being classified as a foreign company) or keeping the governmental benefits.

AbbyNormal I know that one... I am making half what I did six years ago. Ten years of experience, a degree, and a page of references and I can still not get better pay than some ignorant fark just out of college.

Krazikarl Thanks!

AbbyNormal I actually decided to go back to school fulltime and find I am hitting the same overqualified wall and I had worked at the same place for nearly 4 years so it's a little hard to just dumb that part of my resume down.

I dont disagree with tariffs, but tariffs dont solve the fundamental problem. The fundamental problem is that India DOES have more qualified (and better) people than we do. Now granted part of it is because they have more people in general, and part of it may (with emphasis on may, lets not debate this here) be because they are somehow genetically better at math. However, a big part of the problem is how qualified American workers are. Forcing companies to hire equally qualified or even (shudder) inferior employees at a higher cost isnt going a good idea. Superior employees at a higher cost would be the ideal for everybody.

This is just another example of the wage gap, the rich get richer while the poor get poorer.

i can guarandamntee you there are some excellent programmers in america, who are losing their jobs due to the fact that excellent programmers in india cost 1/6th as much.

and it isn't that indian programmers are working for that much less- it's that the whole cost of living is less there.

what's the endgame of all this? sadly, the gulf between rich and poor will get wider. people need living wages. now, i'm not saying that everybody deserves a cushy $120k a year job- but more and more the skills positions- remember, these are the ones that are replacements for manufacturing, right?- are leaving.
i fear for america when that gulf gets too large- because you can really kiss this wonderful republic goodbye via mob rule. and the greedy selfish corporations who are only concerned about stock price will be hoist on their own petards.

Krazikarl That is funny. India does not have better people... what they have is cheaper people. And the loss of service from using inferior workers is usually overcome by the money saved.

It has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with padding those profits and building that bonus for the CEO.

Winterborn:
I think it's just them trying to justify paying people crap wages.

They don't need to justify anything and they know that.

Now what's really going to be interesting is how they respond when the Indians or Chinese start demanding higher wages.

No-brainer: They'll move the work to another country. I'm wondering what that country'll be? Perhaps the US, when we become considered a third-world country?

I'm ultimately talking the bigger picture here too. Corporations can be just as socialistic and money grubbing as well. My ultimate point is that those who gripe about out sourcing while using the argument that it's un American blah blah, and then appeal to politicians to make some knee jerk reactionary policy...well....just bug me. I'm falling back to the really saddening fact that nobody seems informed enough to complain about anything in a rational, educated manner.

If I were dictator supreme, I'd decree that all citizens be required to study intro, intermediate, and advanced economics or else be summarily be executed. Course then my role as dictator wouldn't be conducive to capitalism now would it.... oh well

Can't have it all people.

This has the potential to be a HUGE issue in the 2004 race. The Democrats will cite this as proof the economy is not doing better and trot out the sob stories of good workers who can't find work.

Just a quick bit of research I did. The primary group that was making this arguement The Computer Systems Policy Project represents Dell, HP, IBM, Intel, NCR, Unisys, and Motorola. If you were to take the 2002 salaries and bonuses of the seven CEOs of those companies you could re-hire 700 tech workers back at $30,000 a year (kind of low wage but I would not pass it up if I was out of work)

Carleton S Fiorina, Chairman and CEO of HP $3,930,602... 131 tech workers
Craig R. Barrett CEO of Intel $1,680,400... 56 tech workers
Michael S. Dell Chairman of the Board and CEO of Dell$3,429,500... 114 tech workers
S. J. Palmisano Chairman, President and CEO of IBM $5,933,333... 197 tech workers
Mark Hurd, President and CEO of NCR $893,270... 29 tech workers
Lawrence A. Weinbach; Chairman, President and CEO of Unisys $2,430,000... 81 tech workers
Christopher B Galvin, Chairman and CEO of Motorola $2,775,000... 92 tech workers


Oh but pity the poor CEOs... I they did not send your job to India they would not be able to buy their fifth house.

The problem is a lack of highly educated workers willing to work for the minimum wage or lower

No sh*t... I'd like to also postulate that the worldwide software, music and movie piracy problem is due to the lack of producers of such goods willing to continue producing these things for pennies, or even less!

soporific yep, you are likely correct. And it will win a lot of votes. Unless Bush betrays his ideology, but that will cause a whole mess of fisical conservatives who are already unhappy with him to go into open revolt.

As much as I'd like to side with good ol' Americans, it's simply been my experience that my co-workers can't be bothered to do any more than a minimum effort (help desk support work, I'll note that programmers are a different breed). I'm talking top to bottom -- people that spend more time outside smoking and chatting, people that stroll in late and leave for "emergencies" with great frequency, people that abuse any company policy (sick leave, vacation, etc), people that simply can't sit still and do their job for 5 minutes straight (or need to be medicated to do so). I believe I was raised with a high work ethic and since graduating from college I've seen that ethic reduced to nothing because it simply isn't getting me anywhere. Middle management is too busy fidgeting with imaginary numbers to please the suits to commend a job well done. Solid numbers, perfect attendance, outstanding quality -- here's your check the same as the bozo next to you. So should I be surprised that companies are selling IT workers down the river? Hell no.

True, GoodyearPimp, true. America is a confusing place. I think we may be in some sort of trouble.

To be honest, I gotta say a lot of people here are farking idiots. 90% of people taking computer science have no business starting up a compiler. LEARN WHAT A POINTER IS AND HOW POINTER ARITHMETIC WORKS you goddam Java freaks.

Still not an excuse to offshore companies, though.

"India does not have better people... what they have is cheaper people."

India has a slew of excellent mathemeticians, physicists, and tech people. To say otherwise shows that you are ignorant.

Do they have more of those excellent people than the US? I dont know, but if I had to guess I'd say yes. First off, their selection pool is 4 times as large, and secondly their school systems emphasize high tech stuff and math. While a lot of people go to college in the US, remember that so many of them go into fields like psychology and poly sci. At my school there are roughly 10x as many psychology majors as physics majors and 10x as many poly sci majors as math majors.