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(The Verge)   B..b..b..but Lincoln   (theverge.com) divider line 97
    More: Interesting, Abraham Lincoln, NSA, telegraphs, Western Union  
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6139 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 Jul 2013 at 1:35 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-06 10:55:51 PM
Lincoln made some tough decisions that were unpopular.  He at least showed some remorse and recognized the dilemma in those choices.
 
2013-07-06 11:41:44 PM
The Verge needs to shave some space from its CSS or something. That site takes so much RAM on my laptop it's insane.
 
2013-07-06 11:44:45 PM
Call me when we are in the midst of a shooting civil war. Until then, stuff your constitutional violations in the name of security right up your ass.
 
2013-07-06 11:55:29 PM
Yeah, some of the earliest articles on the NSA domestic spying have mentioned Lincoln's war time commandeering of the telegraph tech available at the time to spy domestically which was news to me as I had never heard the tale before. The analogy is not apt in that the Civil War was a real war that had a real beginning middle and end whereas the War on Terror is a war on a tactic being used to perpetuate a Forever War mentality but the key point that this kind of thing has been going on for a while is good.
 
2013-07-07 12:37:50 AM
No.
 
2013-07-07 01:06:23 AM
I was pissed then, too

/get off my lawn
 
2013-07-07 01:15:40 AM
FTFA: For those that take issue with the current NSA procedures, he says, the only real solution is to end the war

Wow. If only there was some sort of authorizing law that could be repealed---some law claiming to act in the name of patriotism or something.
 
2013-07-07 01:37:30 AM
memory.loc.gov

second amendment solutions
 
2013-07-07 01:44:00 AM
Smart can get you killed
 
2013-07-07 01:46:22 AM

Frederick: Lincoln made some tough decisions that were unpopular.  He at least showed some remorse and recognized the dilemma in those choices.


yeah, because as long as you show remorse, everything is okay.

Geesh, another Lincoln apologist.
 
2013-07-07 01:48:17 AM
Bunch of reconstructionist carpetbaggers in this thread.
 
2013-07-07 01:49:36 AM

Somacandra: FTFA: For those that take issue with the current NSA procedures, he says, the only real solution is to end the war

Wow. If only there was some sort of authorizing law that could be repealed---some law claiming to act in the name of patriotism or something.


There is one.  It is the Patriot Act.
It won't be repealed since Obama seems to really like it.  He is keeping it alive.

This is NOT the Change I was Hoping for
(e.g. Hope and Change is not happening...get it now?)
 
2013-07-07 01:50:48 AM
So Bush is Lincoln?
 
2013-07-07 01:52:16 AM
Lincoln also imprisoned many Marylanders in Fort McHenry to rig elections and ensure that it would stay with the union.... many of our greatest heroes have a mixed record at best, not that I would put any of Lincolns contemporaries in the category of "greatest heroes."
 
2013-07-07 01:57:39 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: Frederick: Lincoln made some tough decisions that were unpopular.  He at least showed some remorse and recognized the dilemma in those choices.

yeah, because as long as you show remorse, everything is okay.

Geesh, another Lincoln apologist.


I didnt say everything is okay -you did.
 
2013-07-07 01:58:17 AM

firefly212: Lincoln also imprisoned many Marylanders in Fort McHenry to rig elections and ensure that it would stay with the union.... many of our greatest heroes have a mixed record at best, not that I would put any of Lincolns contemporaries in the category of "greatest heroes."


Lincoln wasn't in the category of "greatest heroes" at the time either.

(Protip:  John Wilkes Booth didn't like Lincoln.  Study it out.  It is true.)
 
2013-07-07 01:58:31 AM
Unfortunately, government spying has been going on for a long time.  You can't trust any of them.

"Every government is run by liars and nothing they say should be believed."
-- I.F. Stone
 
2013-07-07 01:58:54 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: He is keeping it alive.


It's got a veto proof he can't over ride. Congress and the Senate are keeping it alive would be more correct.

Especially the GOPhers.

But you knew that.
 
2013-07-07 01:59:26 AM
Would you expect anything less from a Republican.
 
2013-07-07 02:03:33 AM
Ironically, Booth helped enshrine Lincoln as a holy paragon of humanity by killing him at the height of his success in keeping the country united. I've often wondered how Lincoln's legacy would look if we had seen his plan for Reconstruction play out, rather than the do-nothing farce that Andrew Johnson perpetrated on the American people, to the chagrin of both political parties.

In any case, no one should be surprised that civil liberties go out the door in the midst of a civil war. Suspending habeas corpus was a worse oversight than simply observing telegraphs.
 
2013-07-07 02:06:32 AM

Frederick: Lincoln made some tough decisions that were unpopular.  He at least showed some remorse and recognized the dilemma in those choices.


The last time a Republican showed remorse for a decision.
 
2013-07-07 02:07:11 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: There is one.  It is the Patriot Act.
It won't be repealed since Obama seems to really like it.  He is keeping it alive.


Please explain.
 
2013-07-07 02:08:42 AM
cloud-2.steampowered.com
 
2013-07-07 02:09:09 AM

quatchi: tenpoundsofcheese: He is keeping it alive.

It's got a veto proof he can't over ride. Congress and the Senate are keeping it alive would be more correct.

Especially the GOPhers.

But you knew that.


What proof do you have that it is veto-proof?  Did Obama even try?

You do know that the job of a politician is to do politics, right?  For example, threaten to not support key votes in the mid terms, that whole deal.
 
2013-07-07 02:11:15 AM

quatchi: tenpoundsofcheese: He is keeping it alive.

It's got a veto proof he can't over ride. Congress and the Senate are keeping it alive would be more correct.

Especially the GOPhers.


oh wait, you are wrong again.
 
2013-07-07 02:12:39 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: This is NOT the Change I was Hoping for
(e.g. Hope and Change is not happening...get it now?)


How DARE Obama not live up to what some right wing shill thought his campaign slogan meant!?!?!!?!? I am OUTRAGED and will never vote for Obama again!
 
2013-07-07 02:14:00 AM
Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus, right? He basically stopped paying attention to the Constitution during the war.
 
2013-07-07 02:14:32 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: What proof do you have that it is veto-proof?


http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-s990/show
 
2013-07-07 02:22:54 AM

Smelly McUgly: Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus, right? He basically stopped paying attention to the Constitution during the war.


It bugs me when people use his suspension of Habeas Corpus as ignoring the Constitution, since the Constitution specifically mentions it can be suspended in case of rebellion and invasion.

Half the country seceding and attacking the other half counts as rebellion and/or invasion, doesn't it?
 
2013-07-07 02:24:25 AM
Lincoln did it because of those pesky Vampires!
 
2013-07-07 02:24:30 AM

Nobodyn0se: tenpoundsofcheese: This is NOT the Change I was Hoping for
(e.g. Hope and Change is not happening...get it now?)

How DARE Obama not live up to what some right wing shill thought his campaign slogan meant!?!?!!?!? I am OUTRAGED and will never vote for Obama again!


Haha I don't have to type my thoughts out, thank you!

=^D
 
2013-07-07 02:26:33 AM
Look, let's get serious about this whole NSA thing.

We all know that the government spies on us.  We know it.  Some of us pretend that we don't know it, but we all do.  It's obvious.  It's predictable.  It's almost expected.

What we don't like is when it's forcibly brought to our attention, or the end result of that domestic spying is a downgrade in our standard of living.

See, we don't really want 'freedom.'  We just want to be allowed to have something of a comfortable life while other men run the country for us.  That's why there's no overflowing fountain of fury and outrage over this NSA thing.  We don't really 'care' about it.

And that's why it won't be seen as a real scandal by anyone.  The vast majority of Americans only care about something if it personally effects their day to day enjoyment of life, and that's it.
 
2013-07-07 02:27:24 AM

Stoker: Lincoln did it because of those pesky Vampires!


What, they didn't send messages by carrier bat?
 
2013-07-07 02:28:27 AM
For those that take issue with the current NSA procedures, he says, the only real solution is to end the war

Gee, isn't it great that we are participating in a perpetually continuous war against an idea, instead of a single war against a country which would eventually end.
 
2013-07-07 02:28:49 AM

1000 Ways to Dye: It bugs me when people use his suspension of Habeas Corpus as ignoring the Constitution, since the Constitution specifically mentions it can be suspended in case of rebellion and invasion.


Like 9/11?
 
2013-07-07 02:33:08 AM

Infernalist: Look, let's get serious about this whole NSA thing.

We all know that the government spies on us.  We know it.  Some of us pretend that we don't know it, but we all do.  It's obvious.  It's predictable.  It's almost expected.

What we don't like is when it's forcibly brought to our attention, or the end result of that domestic spying is a downgrade in our standard of living.

See, we don't really want 'freedom.'  We just want to be allowed to have something of a comfortable life while other men run the country for us.  That's why there's no overflowing fountain of fury and outrage over this NSA thing.  We don't really 'care' about it.

And that's why it won't be seen as a real scandal by anyone.  The vast majority of Americans only care about something if it personally effects their day to day enjoyment of life, and that's it.


Bingo.

The big bad government has been collecting and monitoring communications and shiat for as long as the technology has allowed it. We only pretend to care for a few weeks whenever it's exposed, then go back to not giving a shiat once some celebrity does something especially stupid, or someone spots what might be a shark, or some pretty white girl goes missing.
 
2013-07-07 02:33:26 AM

rnld: 1000 Ways to Dye: It bugs me when people use his suspension of Habeas Corpus as ignoring the Constitution, since the Constitution specifically mentions it can be suspended in case of rebellion and invasion.

Like 9/11?


9/11 was neither invasion nor rebellion.
 
2013-07-07 02:48:03 AM

Strolpol: Ironically, Booth helped enshrine Lincoln as a holy paragon of humanity by killing him at the height of his success in keeping the country united. I've often wondered how Lincoln's legacy would look if we had seen his plan for Reconstruction play out, rather than the do-nothing farce that Andrew Johnson perpetrated on the American people, to the chagrin of both political parties.


It would take more research than I have time for right now, but I was under the impression that a large part of Reconstruction was based on Lincoln's own plans/policies for such things. With that understanding, I've often wondered what Lincoln's legacy would have been if he had been alive to carry out his vision of what we now know as Reconstruction.

Frederick: Lincoln made some tough decisions that were unpopular.  He at least showed some remorse and recognized the dilemma in those choices.


I thought about that rather often while Dubya was prez. I was outraged by many of the things he did. Yet Lincoln did things, that if I had been alive at the time, I would also have been outraged by. I do not believe that history will be kind to Dubya, certainly not to the degree that is has for Lincoln. But I did think about it sometimes and it probably helped temper my outrage to some extent.
 
2013-07-07 02:50:21 AM
Lincoln was garbage, and got what he deserved.
 
2013-07-07 02:53:44 AM
Wow. During a bloody, nasty civil war where countrymen kill their fellow countrymen, rights are apparently thrown out the window. I can't imagine. That animal. I'm burning all my $5's and melting my pennies into bullets, too far Abraham Hussein McTophat. Too far.
 
2013-07-07 03:05:40 AM

violentsalvation: Wow. During a bloody, nasty civil war where countrymen kill their fellow countrymen, rights are apparently thrown out the window. I can't imagine. That animal. I'm burning all my $5's and melting my pennies into bullets, too far Abraham Hussein McTophat. Too far.


I guess i missed the part in the constitution where it specifies exceptions to our basic, natural rights.
 
2013-07-07 03:05:45 AM

Philbb: Frederick: Lincoln made some tough decisions that were unpopular. He at least showed some remorse and recognized the dilemma in those choices.

I thought about that rather often while Dubya was prez. I was outraged by many of the things he did. Yet Lincoln did things, that if I had been alive at the time, I would also have been outraged by. I do not believe that history will be kind to Dubya, certainly not to the degree that is has for Lincoln. But I did think about it sometimes and it probably helped temper my outrage to some extent.


The difference to me is recognizing the pros and cons of the decision.  Also a difference in the wars fought.  Lincoln was trying to weigh the lesser of two evils with, for example, suspending Habeas Corpus to keep a country together.  And Lincoln knew it was a terrible decision that he felt necessary to make.  (I dont personally endorse the decision)

Bush never voiced any concern with his decisions stating things like "a dictatorship is good when you're the dictator".  Nor do I believe Bush ever had the people of this country best interests in mind.  I think his concern was with the best interests of the government.
 
2013-07-07 03:11:04 AM

Philbb: Strolpol: Ironically, Booth helped enshrine Lincoln as a holy paragon of humanity by killing him at the height of his success in keeping the country united. I've often wondered how Lincoln's legacy would look if we had seen his plan for Reconstruction play out, rather than the do-nothing farce that Andrew Johnson perpetrated on the American people, to the chagrin of both political parties.

It would take more research than I have time for right now, but I was under the impression that a large part of Reconstruction was based on Lincoln's own plans/policies for such things. With that understanding, I've often wondered what Lincoln's legacy would have been if he had been alive to carry out his vision of what we now know as Reconstruction.

Frederick: Lincoln made some tough decisions that were unpopular.  He at least showed some remorse and recognized the dilemma in those choices.

I thought about that rather often while Dubya was prez. I was outraged by many of the things he did. Yet Lincoln did things, that if I had been alive at the time, I would also have been outraged by. I do not believe that history will be kind to Dubya, certainly not to the degree that is has for Lincoln. But I did think about it sometimes and it probably helped temper my outrage to some extent.


Lincoln had more stringent oversight for the Confederacy in mind, but it's impossible to know exactly how things would have been executed if he lived. Johnson essentially gave a free pass to people that participated in the Confederacy, allowing a huge number of former Confederates to take political office and pass black codes to all but reinstate slavery. Johnson hated slavery due to the political power it accorded plantation owners, not because he thought black people deserved human rights, and his policies reflected it. The way Johnson utterly short-shifted the Freedmen's Bureau (because 900 or so agents is good enough for the entirety of the South, right?) helped to create problems that we're still enjoying generations down the line.
 
2013-07-07 03:56:28 AM

themindiswatching: The Verge needs to shave some space from its CSS or something. That site takes so much RAM on my laptop it's insane.


thats the *SA mouselogger sending back your personally identifiable jitter-pattern when the mouse is moving over the page. It could use a little optimization. Nothing to worry about citizen!
 
m00
2013-07-07 05:23:08 AM
So this implies we're in a perpetual civil war? ok...
 
2013-07-07 05:31:56 AM
Yeah, in so much as I'm a homer for Mr. Lincoln (huba huba), it's time for some pragmatic evaluation of history. Mr. Lincoln was faced with an insurrectionist army marching through Pennsylvania. If there was any crisis in American history to warrant "disregard all the liberties", I would take the most catastrophic war in American history as the best instance to do so.
 
2013-07-07 05:52:06 AM

Strolpol: Philbb: Strolpol: Ironically, Booth helped enshrine Lincoln as a holy paragon of humanity by killing him at the height of his success in keeping the country united. I've often wondered how Lincoln's legacy would look if we had seen his plan for Reconstruction play out, rather than the do-nothing farce that Andrew Johnson perpetrated on the American people, to the chagrin of both political parties.

It would take more research than I have time for right now, but I was under the impression that a large part of Reconstruction was based on Lincoln's own plans/policies for such things. With that understanding, I've often wondered what Lincoln's legacy would have been if he had been alive to carry out his vision of what we now know as Reconstruction.

Frederick: Lincoln made some tough decisions that were unpopular.  He at least showed some remorse and recognized the dilemma in those choices.

I thought about that rather often while Dubya was prez. I was outraged by many of the things he did. Yet Lincoln did things, that if I had been alive at the time, I would also have been outraged by. I do not believe that history will be kind to Dubya, certainly not to the degree that is has for Lincoln. But I did think about it sometimes and it probably helped temper my outrage to some extent.

Lincoln had more stringent oversight for the Confederacy in mind, but it's impossible to know exactly how things would have been executed if he lived. Johnson essentially gave a free pass to people that participated in the Confederacy, allowing a huge number of former Confederates to take political office and pass black codes to all but reinstate slavery. Johnson hated slavery due to the political power it accorded plantation owners, not because he thought black people deserved human rights, and his policies reflected it. The way Johnson utterly short-shifted the Freedmen's Bureau (because 900 or so agents is good enough for the entirety of the South, right?) helped to create problems that we ...


But don't forget, Lincoln finally came around to thinking (as far as we can tell) that blacks were not inherently inferior to whites, However, evidence indicates that he did believe that back and white people would not be able to live in the same society and because of that, the freed blacks should be encouraged to leave the US.

I still say that we will never be able to know what would have happened if Lincoln had lived and oversaw what came after the Civil War. Yet, I still think that his legacy is what it is because he didn't live long enough to put his "after war" plans. ideas, policies, in place. If he had, Johnson would never have been president and maybe some/many of the ideas and policies of Reconstruction would have been attributed to him. Of course, if that had happened we have no way at all to know how he would have responded or altered his ideas.

This is, of course, all speculation. There is now way to know how things "might have been".
 
2013-07-07 06:21:33 AM
Given the laundry list of crimes Lincoln committed for the greater good I can basically just overlook this one. It was a "new" technology and how the Constitution applies to a new technology is always a point of contention.
 
2013-07-07 06:24:01 AM
I didn't know Obama's Time Machine went back that far.
 
2013-07-07 06:26:12 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: I was pissed then, too

/get off my lawn


Veranda?
 
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