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(Gawker)   "It's not that Egypt doesn't have a recipe for a democratic transition. It seems to lack even the basic mental ingredients." - David Brooks   (gawker.com ) divider line
    More: Stupid  
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1317 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Jul 2013 at 8:02 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-07-05 05:29:01 PM  
I bet David Brooks thinks that the US and Israel have a "burden" to govern the "primitive" people of Egypt, too.
 
2013-07-05 08:02:06 PM  
mydoodleblog.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-07-05 08:03:56 PM  
The only thing more retarded than David Brooks talking about International Relations is Max Read commenting on it.
 
2013-07-05 08:17:56 PM  
Hey David, that shiat didn't happen overnight here either. Why don't we all calm the fark down and wait to see how they're doing 15 years from now, huh?
 
2013-07-05 08:21:19 PM  
While Brooks can be a retard, the coup was probably a good idea if they then ensure a transition to democracy with proper power sharing and democratic institutions. That was the chief complaint against Morsi, after all.
 
2013-07-05 08:44:27 PM  
We must teach them, then. It's our -- we being the white Europeans -- burden. Our white man's burden, as it were. Brown folk just need some good old paternal handholding in the ways of the modern world.
 
2013-07-05 08:47:47 PM  
After watching Al Jazeera  today, I'm somewhat convinced we're looking toward a civil war.  You can't just give someone a vote and then turn around and tell them it's worthless.

Egypt's economic problems have *a lot* to do with the Military owning vast swaths of the economy -- from real estate to durable goods, and they've moved to protect that from any civilian political interference.   They've clearly pissed off the Muslim Brotherhood, but it's going to take time for people to figure out that the military has too much power, and as long as it does the economy is going to continue to stall.
 
2013-07-05 08:48:18 PM  
If there's one thing that David Brooks knows, it's lacking basic mental ingredients.
 
2013-07-05 08:52:29 PM  
In the words of the great philosopher Townshend, "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."
 
2013-07-05 08:56:11 PM  
A look at Brooks' bio shows, yep, an East Coast-centered Whitey Whitebread McWhiterton with no indication that he's ever left the US or has any background in any foreign country or culture, and yet he's such an expert on the mindset, education and interests of all Egyptians that he can opine on whether they are capable of creating a democracy.

And no doubt next week he'll be an expert on what Iranians want, or why China has a real-estate bubble, or how France can never something something.

Any of y'all who's ever spent serious time in any foreign country must know how much more accurate your opinions of that place are compared to others who've never been there - can anyone show where Brooks got his expertise on Egypt?
 
2013-07-05 09:10:55 PM  

El Pachuco: A look at Brooks' bio shows, yep, an East Coast-centered Whitey Whitebread McWhiterton with no indication that he's ever left the US or has any background in any foreign country or culture, and yet he's such an expert on the mindset, education and interests of all Egyptians that he can opine on whether they are capable of creating a democracy.

And no doubt next week he'll be an expert on what Iranians want, or why China has a real-estate bubble, or how France can never something something.

Any of y'all who's ever spent serious time in any foreign country must know how much more accurate your opinions of that place are compared to others who've never been there - can anyone show where Brooks got his expertise on Egypt?


Same place I got mine - playing the Egyptians in Civilization on Warlord difficulty for nearly a full game.
 
2013-07-05 09:11:40 PM  
France took AGES to get on its feet after their revolution. They had a reign of terror, then a ruler that tried to conquer Europe, then was under control by European alliances, and then WWI and WWII shook it up. Unless it takes that farking long, let them scuffle as long as they don't take it out on is.
 
2013-07-05 09:13:33 PM  
David Brooks manages to talk a lot without ever actually saying anything.
 
2013-07-05 09:20:52 PM  
Just in case we've all forgotten, the first American government failed too.
 
2013-07-05 09:27:22 PM  

fusillade762: David Brooks manages to talk a lot without ever actually saying anything.


you might want to look at the column unfiltered through gawker's identity politics. it was actually a pretty good article. i dont agree with him alot of the time but he makes good arguments, and it is not helpful to attack the man.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/opinion/brooks-defending-the-coup. ht ml?ref=davidbrooks&_r=0
 
2013-07-05 09:41:01 PM  

GF named my left testicle thundercles: fusillade762: David Brooks manages to talk a lot without ever actually saying anything.

you might want to look at the column unfiltered through gawker's identity politics. it was actually a pretty good article. i dont agree with him alot of the time but he makes good arguments, and it is not helpful to attack the man.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/opinion/brooks-defending-the-coup. ht ml?ref=davidbrooks&_r=0


I didn't read the article in question, I was just commenting on his past editorials that I've read. As opposed to, say, Paul Krugman or David Ignatius, Brooks never seems to have a point. I'll give this one a read, though.
 
2013-07-05 10:06:08 PM  
Shall we note here, the day after Independence Day, that it took the United States of America 13 years after rejecting monarchy to settle on a stable constitutional form of government?

Yes we shall. And we shall note that the Egyptian military was merely enforcing the will of the Egyptian people when they unseated Morsi, after giving him 48 hours to reverse his dictatorial course and start behaving like a democratically elected official and not a tinpot dictator. That's kind of how an emerging democracy has to work.

If the generals fail to have the promised elections in a few months, then we'll talk.
 
2013-07-05 10:13:15 PM  
fusillade762: As opposed to, say, Paul Krugman or David Ignatius, Brooks never seems to have a point. I'll give this one a read, though.

Read Brooks' columns with an eye to how he sets up principled centrist middle ways that somehow always end up in favor of whatever the economic elite wing of the Republican party (i.e. the non-teahadist wing) wants. Everything is airways the fault of our decaying morals, as evidenced by the demands of poor and middle-class people to be treated as citizens rather than help.
 
2013-07-05 10:24:15 PM  
Dictatorships and oligarchies spend decades devouring the state from the inside out, destroying its civil society and making all forms of political and economic expression other than bribery and coercion pointless... and then when they finally eat themselves to death and collapse, all of the Serious People are shocked, SHOCKED that the state can't function anymore.

So maybe next year some famous person will end up totally riddled with cancer, and the doctors will nearly kill the the poor guy cutting, nuking and chemo'ing all the tumors out, leaving him a virtual cripple... and David farking Brooks will run to the bathroom and start shiatting out a column entitled "CANCER: UNDERAPPRECIATED AND MISUNDERSTOOD."
 
2013-07-05 10:26:07 PM  

GF named my left testicle thundercles: fusillade762: David Brooks manages to talk a lot without ever actually saying anything.

you might want to look at the column unfiltered through gawker's identity politics. it was actually a pretty good article. i dont agree with him alot of the time but he makes good arguments, and it is not helpful to attack the man.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/opinion/brooks-defending-the-coup. ht ml?ref=davidbrooks&_r=0


Gawker has a point, too. Brooks' article does start out OK, but then he goes way off the rails.
 
2013-07-05 10:30:15 PM  
Can we just acknowledge that anything from 30 degrees east through 105 degrees east is incapable of anything beyond a military strongman and let it go at that?  If they can't handle military strong men let them tend their goats and keep to their yurts and we'll happily relieve them of any mineral wealth they may possess. We'll ring them up in the 22nd century and see if they are inclined to join the rest of the world at that point.
 
2013-07-05 10:31:00 PM  
In Canada and the UK a leader can be brought  down by a no confidence vote.

In the US impeachment is always considered an option to consider when President's go sideways although it's not actually used that much.

In Egypt they kinda forgot to put one of those dealies into their infant democracy.

So, the people reverted to what worked last time.

They might wanna take this into consideration going forward.

/DNRFTA.
//It's David Brooks fer crying out loud.
///Maybe later if I get reaaaaal bored.
 
2013-07-05 10:49:41 PM  
Democracy is not an easy path and it's never quick.  It took us 13 years to figure out TWO different forms of governing documents, followed by a massive civil war that tore us apart, less than 75 years later.

We tried legislating morality and figured out that it didn't work.

And it took us nearly 175 years to get serious about enforcing racial equality.

So, how about we all STFU and let the Egyptians work out their own business in their own good time.
 
2013-07-05 11:07:17 PM  

Stile4aly: Just in case we've all forgotten, the first American government failed too.


Well, that's totally different.

Because Jesus.
 
2013-07-05 11:11:56 PM  

GF named my left testicle thundercles: fusillade762: David Brooks manages to talk a lot without ever actually saying anything.

you might want to look at the column unfiltered through gawker's identity politics. it was actually a pretty good article. i dont agree with him alot of the time but he makes good arguments, and it is not helpful to attack the man.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/opinion/brooks-defending-the-coup. ht ml?ref=davidbrooks&_r=0


Dude, he said the Egyptians are farking incompetent morons who lack the mental capacity to tie their loafers and button their t-shirts. How is that "pretty good"?
 
2013-07-05 11:31:36 PM  
Right! What they really need is American-style democracy: An entrenched finance-based elite class allows about 25% of the population to have a privileged lifestyle (the "middle class") in exchange for being the enforcers of economic exploitation of the other 75% (who, the population is assured, don't exist), with a first-past-the-post electoral system that makes it effectively impossible for there to be any competition for the two organized and well-funded parties of the aforementioned top 25% (and particularly the top 1%) but which allows any debate over political economy within the top 25% to be shut down by screaming that the voting within this system is the pinnacle of possible decision-making schemes; and when members of the bottom 75% raise concerns, they just get ignored, or, if they start to organize, arrested and/or assassinated. If it works for us, it can work for Egypt.
 
2013-07-06 12:44:44 AM  

Serious Black: GF named my left testicle thundercles: fusillade762: David Brooks manages to talk a lot without ever actually saying anything.

you might want to look at the column unfiltered through gawker's identity politics. it was actually a pretty good article. i dont agree with him alot of the time but he makes good arguments, and it is not helpful to attack the man.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/opinion/brooks-defending-the-coup. ht ml?ref=davidbrooks&_r=0

Dude, he said the Egyptians are farking incompetent morons who lack the mental capacity to tie their loafers and button their t-shirts. How is that "pretty good"?


i know it must be hard to look at things objectively nowadays, being a professionally offended person is fashionable, but that is not what he said. he said that the muslim brotherhood's insular, paranoid, authoritarian, self righteous, destructive and centralized mindset is the antithesis of what is required for a representative government to function. And that the people who have the skills and ideas that could make a government work have mostly been exiled or imprisoned. what is mostly left are people who don't have those knowledge, skills, or ideas. He did not say that the egyptian mind is fundamentally and permanently incapable of understanding democracy. He is talking about ideological foundations, not racial intelligence.
 
2013-07-06 02:17:09 AM  
I don't seem to recall David Brooks as having a real good track record on Middle East predictions...
 
2013-07-06 02:33:42 AM  

fusillade762: David Brooks manages to talk a lot without ever actually saying anything.


Sure he says things.  And the things he says are "David Brooks is talking, David Brooks is talking, David Brooks is talking, . . . ."
 
2013-07-06 08:57:13 AM  
img.gawkerassets.com

I'm sorry, but until you take this down, I cannot even recognize you as an adult, let alone a writer with thoughts and ideas that deserve any meaningful consideration.

/obviously DNRTFA
 
2013-07-06 09:09:04 AM  
Remember when Republicans used to at least act like they might not be completely and totally racist?

They switched from dog whistles to steam whistles.
 
2013-07-06 09:19:04 AM  
Didn't Jackie Chan say something similar about China?
 
2013-07-06 09:24:16 AM  

bartink: While Brooks can be a retard, the coup was probably a good idea if they then ensure a transition to democracy with proper power sharing and democratic institutions. That was the chief complaint against Morsi, after all.


From Nasser until Mubarak, Egypt was run by a Western-backed(particularly British and US) Military in tandem with the Westernized urban elite, forcing their will on everyone else. Last week, the military threw out a democratically elected government, after being "asked to" by elite urban protesters(whose protests the foreign, particularly British and USian, press has exaggerated the size of). You might be right about this, but given how much this looks like the behavior of the old military dictatorship Egyptians just overthrew and how upset Western govs were with Morsi's anti-Israel, isolationist stance, I'd say it's best to remain skeptical until we see genuine moves towards free, open, representative elections by the military.
 
2013-07-06 09:27:21 AM  

El Pachuco: A look at Brooks' bio shows, yep, an East Coast-centered Whitey Whitebread McWhiterton with no indication that he's ever left the US or has any background in any foreign country or culture, and yet he's such an expert on the mindset, education and interests of all Egyptians that he can opine on whether they are capable of creating a democracy.

And no doubt next week he'll be an expert on what Iranians want, or why China has a real-estate bubble, or how France can never something something.

Any of y'all who's ever spent serious time in any foreign country must know how much more accurate your opinions of that place are compared to others who've never been there - can anyone show where Brooks got his expertise on Egypt?


He's a white, protestant, het male who was born to wealth; that's all the expertise he's ever needed. It is truly breath-taking how much of US policy discussion consists of Mansplaning.
 
2013-07-06 09:45:33 AM  

Heron: El Pachuco: A look at Brooks' bio shows, yep, an East Coast-centered Whitey Whitebread McWhiterton with no indication that he's ever left the US or has any background in any foreign country or culture, and yet he's such an expert on the mindset, education and interests of all Egyptians that he can opine on whether they are capable of creating a democracy.

And no doubt next week he'll be an expert on what Iranians want, or why China has a real-estate bubble, or how France can never something something.

Any of y'all who's ever spent serious time in any foreign country must know how much more accurate your opinions of that place are compared to others who've never been there - can anyone show where Brooks got his expertise on Egypt?

He's a white, protestant Jewish, het male who was born to wealth; that's all the expertise he's ever needed. It is truly breath-taking how much of US policy discussion consists of Mansplaning.


Bah. FTFM. Guess my brain was in too anti-WASP a mood right there >:/
 
2013-07-06 09:46:52 AM  

Heron: bartink: While Brooks can be a retard, the coup was probably a good idea if they then ensure a transition to democracy with proper power sharing and democratic institutions. That was the chief complaint against Morsi, after all.

From Nasser until Mubarak, Egypt was run by a Western-backed(particularly British and US) Military in tandem with the Westernized urban elite, forcing their will on everyone else. Last week, the military threw out a democratically elected government, after being "asked to" by elite urban protesters(whose protests the foreign, particularly British and USian, press has exaggerated the size of). You might be right about this, but given how much this looks like the behavior of the old military dictatorship Egyptians just overthrew and how upset Western govs were with Morsi's anti-Israel, isolationist stance, I'd say it's best to remain skeptical until we see genuine moves towards free, open, representative elections by the military.


oi41.tinypic.com
 
2013-07-06 09:48:01 AM  
Heron:

He's a white, protestant, het male who was born to wealth; that's all the expertise he's ever needed. It is truly breath-taking how much of US policy discussion consists of Mansplaning.

I thought he was Jewish.

/Usually find what he writes or says makes me think
 
2013-07-06 10:34:15 AM  

fusillade762: David Brooks manages to talk a lot without ever actually saying anything.


Good grief, this.

His original article was positively Friedman-esque, in terms of condescending douchiness.
 
2013-07-06 11:06:38 AM  

SomeoneDumb: Heron:

He's a white, protestant, het male who was born to wealth; that's all the expertise he's ever needed. It is truly breath-taking how much of US policy discussion consists of Mansplaning.

I thought he was Jewish.

/Usually find what he writes or says makes me think


Yeah he is, thus my FTFM following the post. My brain does stuff like that to me on occasion to keep my head from getting too inflated :p
 
2013-07-06 11:12:10 AM  

LewDux: Heron: bartink: While Brooks can be a retard, the coup was probably a good idea if they then ensure a transition to democracy with proper power sharing and democratic institutions. That was the chief complaint against Morsi, after all.

From Nasser until Mubarak, Egypt was run by a Western-backed(particularly British and US) Military in tandem with the Westernized urban elite, forcing their will on everyone else. Last week, the military threw out a democratically elected government, after being "asked to" by elite urban protesters(whose protests the foreign, particularly British and USian, press has exaggerated the size of). You might be right about this, but given how much this looks like the behavior of the old military dictatorship Egyptians just overthrew and how upset Western govs were with Morsi's anti-Israel, isolationist stance, I'd say it's best to remain skeptical until we see genuine moves towards free, open, representative elections by the military.

[oi41.tinypic.com image 302x229]


Morsi certainly had his problems and I sympathize with those who wanted him gone, but I'm not going to ignore the historical context of this event for the sake of sympathy and optimism. That men with guns are doing what you'd like them to right now doesn't mean they will in the future, particularly when "what you'd like them to" matches up with what Western govs with a long history of interference and a recent history of revisiting it(Libya and Syria) want as well.
 
2013-07-06 11:52:01 AM  
Just to Godwin the thread, would it have been against democracy if the German army had arrested Hitler after he was elected chancellor and started purging the other political parties?
 
2013-07-06 11:54:46 AM  

fusillade762: David Brooks manages to talk a lot without ever actually saying anything.


He says it only once, why say it again?
 
2013-07-06 12:25:47 PM  

Heron: LewDux: Heron: bartink: While Brooks can be a retard, the coup was probably a good idea if they then ensure a transition to democracy with proper power sharing and democratic institutions. That was the chief complaint against Morsi, after all.

From Nasser until Mubarak, Egypt was run by a Western-backed(particularly British and US) Military in tandem with the Westernized urban elite, forcing their will on everyone else. Last week, the military threw out a democratically elected government, after being "asked to" by elite urban protesters(whose protests the foreign, particularly British and USian, press has exaggerated the size of). You might be right about this, but given how much this looks like the behavior of the old military dictatorship Egyptians just overthrew and how upset Western govs were with Morsi's anti-Israel, isolationist stance, I'd say it's best to remain skeptical until we see genuine moves towards free, open, representative elections by the military.

[oi41.tinypic.com image 302x229]

Morsi certainly had his problems and I sympathize with those who wanted him gone, but I'm not going to ignore the historical context of this event for the sake of sympathy and optimism. That men with guns are doing what you'd like them to right now doesn't mean they will in the future, particularly when "what you'd like them to" matches up with what Western govs with a long history of interference and a recent history of revisiting it(Libya and Syria) want as well.


www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net
 
2013-07-06 01:19:24 PM  

GF named my left testicle thundercles: Serious Black: GF named my left testicle thundercles: fusillade762: David Brooks manages to talk a lot without ever actually saying anything.

you might want to look at the column unfiltered through gawker's identity politics. it was actually a pretty good article. i dont agree with him alot of the time but he makes good arguments, and it is not helpful to attack the man.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/opinion/brooks-defending-the-coup. ht ml?ref=davidbrooks&_r=0

Dude, he said the Egyptians are farking incompetent morons who lack the mental capacity to tie their loafers and button their t-shirts. How is that "pretty good"?

i know it must be hard to look at things objectively nowadays, being a professionally offended person is fashionable, but that is not what he said. he said that the muslim brotherhood's insular, paranoid, authoritarian, self righteous, destructive and centralized mindset is the antithesis of what is required for a representative government to function. And that the people who have the skills and ideas that could make a government work have mostly been exiled or imprisoned. what is mostly left are people who don't have those knowledge, skills, or ideas. He did not say that the egyptian mind is fundamentally and permanently incapable of understanding democracy. He is talking about ideological foundations, not racial intelligence.


Let's suppose you're right and that, instead of impugning all Egyptians, he intended to impugn all Muslim Brotherhood members. Let's take a look at what he accused them of doing:

"Those who emphasize substance, on the other hand, argue that members of the Muslim Brotherhood are defined by certain beliefs. They reject pluralism, secular democracy and, to some degree, modernity. When you elect fanatics, they continue, you have not advanced democracy. You have empowered people who are going to wind up subverting democracy. The important thing is to get people like that out of power, even if it takes a coup. The goal is to weaken political Islam, by nearly any means."

Rejecting pluralism...you know, I hear a lot from self-identified Tea Party supporters that Obama and the liberals are destroying America. Worse, they reflexively treat compromise with people who think differently than them as akin to consorting with the spawn of Hitler and Satan

Rejecting secular democracy...how often have Tea Party members argued that America is a Judeo-Christian nation and that America must follow Biblical law if we are to fulfill our destiny as the greatest country on the planet?

Rejecting modernity...how often do the Tea Party members say they want to "take America back?" Most of that taking America back seems to be stopping modern inventions and discoveries like contraception, financial regulation, universal health care, and ensuring every person has a minimum level of security. Instead, they pass laws that seem to drag us back into the age of feudalism.

Yeah, I like that interpretation of David Brooks's article a lot more. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
 
2013-07-06 01:47:07 PM  
Serious Black:

Smarted.
 
2013-07-06 03:50:26 PM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Just to Godwin the thread, would it have been against democracy if the German army had arrested Hitler after he was elected chancellor and started purging the other political parties?


Don't be silly. Hitler was a Christian.
 
2013-07-06 05:35:15 PM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Just to Godwin the thread, would it have been against democracy if the German army had arrested Hitler after he was elected chancellor and started purging the other political parties?


He was appointed chancellor, or was that part of a joke?
 
2013-07-06 06:04:06 PM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Just to Godwin the thread, would it have been against democracy if the German army had arrested Hitler after he was elected chancellor and started purging the other political parties?


The army and the wealthy were the ones behind the Nazi movement, so why would they stop him?
 
2013-07-07 06:25:10 AM  

El Pachuco: Any of y'all who's ever spent serious time in any foreign country must know how much more accurate your opinions of that place are compared to others who've never been there - can anyone show where Brooks got his expertise on Egypt?


While I agree that Brooks is a complete douchebag tool, personal experience may be overrated. Doctors successfully diagnose and treat all sorts of ailments they have not personally seen before, after all. More damning is the fact that he only has an undergrad degree in history for an academic credential. That would be like letting a first year med student give a consult on a heart procedure.
 
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