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(Washington Post)   Egypt underwent a military coup against a democratically elected government and we need to withhold aid to punish the innocent   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 166
    More: Dumbass, Egypt, United States, President Mohamad Morsi, democratic transition, guarantors, non-governmental organizations, two-thirds majority, rule by decree  
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1386 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Jul 2013 at 10:30 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-05 07:57:57 AM
We don't want any turnip truck riders gettin any ideas over here....
 
2013-07-05 09:29:45 AM
Egypt underwent a military coup against a democratically elected government that then turned around and said the constitution didn't apply to them, and cancelled all upcoming elections.
 
2013-07-05 09:40:45 AM

God Is My Co-Pirate: Egypt underwent a military coup against a democratically elected government that then turned around and said the constitution didn't apply to them, and cancelled all upcoming elections.



So, let's punish the peasants.
 
2013-07-05 09:50:06 AM
How will those poor regular Egyptians survive if we don't give their government $1.3 Billion to subsidize the military?
 
2013-07-05 10:15:10 AM
A democratically elected government with a president who attempted to rewrite the constitution and place the judicial system firmly under his control.

Truly the foundations of a functional democracy.
 
2013-07-05 10:22:55 AM
While the transition to reasonably stable democracy can be messy, I have to say Egypt's looking like a house from Hoarders.
 
2013-07-05 10:34:28 AM

TappingTheVein: A democratically elected government with a president who attempted to rewrite the constitution and place the judicial system firmly under his control.

Truly the foundations of a functional democracy.


Don't hate the player; hate the game.
 
2013-07-05 10:36:19 AM

Aarontology: How will those poor regular Egyptians survive if we don't give their government $1.3 Billion to subsidize the military?


This, don't get confused between money to buy weapons from US contractors and humanitarian aid
 
2013-07-05 10:36:21 AM
You had 20+ million people on the streets wanting him out.

Sounds pretty democratic to me.
 
2013-07-05 10:36:44 AM
Whoever wrote that article reminds me of that skinny little snarky fark at every D&D session that owns every core book and supplemental book and tries to argue the rules with the DM.

At the end of the day, the rules exist, but extenuating circumstances apply.

Yes, it was a coup against a democratically elected leader.

No, it wasn't a bad thing.

If you can't reconcile the two statements above, you have 'no' business talking politics.
 
2013-07-05 10:39:07 AM

acanuck: We don't want any turnip truck riders gettin any ideas over here....


Or worse, the average American hunter.
 
2013-07-05 10:40:43 AM
They are hunting down the Muslim extremists we were trying to put in charge, so... Yea, the president probably won't sign that check.
 
2013-07-05 10:42:50 AM
Holy crap, the Washington Post editorial board had know idea what was going on in Egypt.

I'm no expert, but even I knew that The Muslim Brotherhood tried to change Egypt into their personal country.
 
2013-07-05 10:43:06 AM

monoski: Aarontology: How will those poor regular Egyptians survive if we don't give their government $1.3 Billion to subsidize the military?

This, don't get confused between money to buy weapons from US contractors and humanitarian aid


But to be fair, $1.3b is a steal to ensure continuous operation of the Suez Canal and for Egypt to not go to war with Israel. Fairly cheap insurance policy.
 
2013-07-05 10:43:16 AM
Having not spoken up against the excesses of Mr. Morsi's government, the Obama administration has, with equal fecklessness, failed to forthrightly oppose the military intervention.

Can't we just mind our own farking business for once?
 
2013-07-05 10:46:59 AM

Aarontology: How will those poor regular Egyptians survive if we don't give their government $1.3 Billion to subsidize the military?


It's true that the aid is hardly humanitarian, but it makes removing the funding make less sense since:

A) The actions as of yet haven't endangered Israel, which is the real reason we provide them security funding.
B) Considering the military is the one consistent political influence in Egypt, trying to piss them off to stand up for the Muslim Brotherhood manages to do no one any good.
 
2013-07-05 10:48:13 AM

Smeggy Smurf: acanuck: We don't want any turnip truck riders gettin any ideas over here....

Or worse, the average American hunter.


I'm fine with the average American hunter taking up arms against our government. I get the feeling that sitting in a tree stand with a case of Bud Light isn't going to give them the skills to take on 4th grade hall monitors, let alone the American military.
 
2013-07-05 10:48:15 AM

furiousxgeorge: Having not spoken up against the excesses of Mr. Morsi's government, the Obama administration has, with equal fecklessness, failed to forthrightly oppose the military intervention.

Can't we just mind our own farking business for once?


If it means that they get to snark on the President, those loonies would white-knight for Stalin and/or Pol Pot.
 
2013-07-05 10:49:57 AM

furiousxgeorge: Having not spoken up against the excesses of Mr. Morsi's government, the Obama administration has, with equal fecklessness, failed to forthrightly oppose the military intervention.

Can't we just mind our own farking business for once?


Nope. Unless you have some alternative to oil, we need to keep the Suez open. Though, I will disagree that we failed to oppose the military intervention. We fund their military. They don't sneeze without us knowing. We probably assisted in some way.
 
2013-07-05 10:52:19 AM

Diogenes: While the transition to reasonably stable democracy can be messy, I have to say Egypt's looking like a house from Hoarders.


I dunno, as long as the military do a sort of proto-Turkey thing and kick out the abusive government but avoid messing with the process of replacing them and pushing the process to military friendly figures, etc., it might be a reasonable transitional strategy. There is the implicit risk that the government will feel under pressure to be "nice" to the military because they might use any popular protests as an excuse to pursue their own agenda and hold the government to ransom, but it seems a reasonable risk given the alternatives.
 
2013-07-05 10:52:33 AM
The only thing this does in reinforce the idea Egypt's true government is the military.  Because it happens to be popular with the people (is it really? The Muslim Brotherhood got won majorities less than a few months ago) doesn't mean this is a good precedent.  Those of you cheerleading it aren't thinking long term.  They're just going from one puppet dictatorship to another that's controlled by a U.S. funded military.
 
2013-07-05 10:53:54 AM

INeedAName: Smeggy Smurf: acanuck: We don't want any turnip truck riders gettin any ideas over here....

Or worse, the average American hunter.

I'm fine with the average American hunter taking up arms against our government. I get the feeling that sitting in a tree stand with a case of Bud Light isn't going to give them the skills to take on 4th grade hall monitors, let alone the American military.


You do realize that a large portion of our hunters are also military right?  Only a dumbass city slicker would make that mistake. You're not a dumbass city slicker are you?
 
2013-07-05 10:55:08 AM

illegal.tender: You had 20+ million people on the streets wanting him out.

Sounds pretty democratic to me.


People seem to forget that the military "stepped in" the last time around as well. Then Egypt held elections. The military didn't "step in" and not leave. The elections turned out to be something Egyptians realize was a huge mistake. They rose back up, and the military stepped in again.

So yeah, I'm not really having a problem with this.
 
2013-07-05 10:55:11 AM

cameroncrazy1984: We probably assisted in some way.


I doubt it was anything more than saying "look man, do what you gotta do".

And as far as stopping the aid because the coup wasn't democratic: you didn't stop it under three decades of Mubarak rule, so what's the big deal now that they're actually working on building a functioning democracy?
 
2013-07-05 10:56:00 AM

Darth_Lukecash: Holy crap, the Washington Post editorial board had know idea what was going on in Egypt.

I'm no expert, but even I knew that The Muslim Brotherhood tried to change Egypt into their personal country.


Yes and no. Morsi did say that the courts could not dispute the legality of his decrees and there was plenty of patronage towards the Muslim Brotherhood going on, but it was actually the courts that indefinitely suspended elections.

Also: most Egyptians still say they want church-state mixing, their problems were with how the MB was going about it and how the economy was in the gutter and Morsi wasn't doing anything about it. Chances are with new elections we'll see another Islamist party with the majority, the only question is how radical it will be/how much they will focus on the economy/how much room the military will give them to function.
 
2013-07-05 10:57:04 AM
Funny.
The banner on Huffpo yesterday was FREEDOM above a picture of an Egyptian army general.
Because nothing says freedom to Americans like a military coup!

/You're all Good Germans and don't even know it.
 
2013-07-05 10:57:20 AM

DarnoKonrad: The only thing this does in reinforce the idea Egypt's true government is the military.  Because it happens to be popular with the people (is it really? The Muslim Brotherhood got won majorities less than a few months ago) doesn't mean this is a good precedent.  Those of you cheerleading it aren't thinking long term.  They're just going from one puppet dictatorship to another that's controlled by a U.S. funded military.


They just stopped a dictator from consolidating power and removed him from office, most likely with our approval and possibly with our covert aid.

I fail to see how this translates into a puppet dictatorship.
 
2013-07-05 10:58:03 AM

way south: They are hunting down the Muslim extremists we were trying to put in charge, so... Yea, the president probably won't sign that check.


Lolwut?
 
2013-07-05 10:58:09 AM
Look, this was the educated, liberal, urban population of Egypt rebelling against a leader who was elected primarily with support from rural populations.
 
2013-07-05 10:58:15 AM
I'm sure all the voters that elected Morsi will just go away and not vote next time.
 
2013-07-05 10:58:29 AM
Coup coup Ka chew,

I am the walrus
 
2013-07-05 10:59:59 AM

TappingTheVein: A democratically elected government with a president who attempted to rewrite the constitution and place the judicial system firmly under his control.

Truly the foundations of a functional democracy.


But enough about Bush.
 
2013-07-05 11:00:06 AM

furiousxgeorge: Having not spoken up against the excesses of Mr. Morsi's government, the Obama administration has, with equal fecklessness, failed to forthrightly oppose the military intervention.

Can't we just mind our own farking business for once?


The Obama administration knows that Egypt needs to handle this by itself. This isn't a case of a free government being toppled by a power mad general. This is a case of a elected government, abusing their power to promote a single religion and way of life.

And the military in Egypt is its own branch of Government...and they have a vested interest in a peaceful, prosperous and open government.
 
2013-07-05 11:00:08 AM
I have nothing intelligent to post - so here is a pic of the Bangles (cuz they used to be hawt & stuff):
bestofthe80s.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-07-05 11:01:50 AM

Infernalist: DarnoKonrad: The only thing this does in reinforce the idea Egypt's true government is the military.  Because it happens to be popular with the people (is it really? The Muslim Brotherhood got won majorities less than a few months ago) doesn't mean this is a good precedent.  Those of you cheerleading it aren't thinking long term.  They're just going from one puppet dictatorship to another that's controlled by a U.S. funded military.

They just stopped a dictator from consolidating power and removed him from office, most likely with our approval and possibly with our covert aid.

I fail to see how this translates into a puppet dictatorship.



You'll see this is a lot more complicated than the easy narrative you're trying to digest.  This is not good.  And you people are forgetting when the people took to the streets to protest military abuse prior to the elections.  This is not the road to freedom.
 
2013-07-05 11:01:55 AM

HotWingConspiracy: I'm sure all the voters that elected Morsi will just go away and not vote next time.


Many of those who voted for him did so only because he swore to respect the various minorities and promised to govern from the middle of the road.

They learned otherwise.  I don't suspect they're going to be so naive next time around.  But we'll see, won't we?
 
2013-07-05 11:02:03 AM

hinten: God Is My Co-Pirate: Egypt underwent a military coup against a democratically elected government that then turned around and said the constitution didn't apply to them, and cancelled all upcoming elections.


So, let's punish the peasants.


.


They did ask for it


static.ibnlive.in.com
www.theblaze.com
 
2013-07-05 11:02:04 AM

Infernalist: DarnoKonrad: The only thing this does in reinforce the idea Egypt's true government is the military.  Because it happens to be popular with the people (is it really? The Muslim Brotherhood got won majorities less than a few months ago) doesn't mean this is a good precedent.  Those of you cheerleading it aren't thinking long term.  They're just going from one puppet dictatorship to another that's controlled by a U.S. funded military.

They just stopped a dictator from consolidating power and removed him from office, most likely with our approval and possibly with our covert aid.

I fail to see how this translates into a puppet dictatorship.


If your military routinely deposes the government in your country, you have a dictatorship. Relatively benevolent in this case, but there's no promise that future military leaders will be so judicious with their ability to overthrow the government on a whim.
 
2013-07-05 11:03:09 AM

oldfarthenry: I have nothing intelligent to post - so here is a pic of the Bangles (cuz they used to be hawt & stuff):


Susanna Hoffs... Oh man...
 
2013-07-05 11:04:05 AM

DarnoKonrad: Infernalist: DarnoKonrad: The only thing this does in reinforce the idea Egypt's true government is the military.  Because it happens to be popular with the people (is it really? The Muslim Brotherhood got won majorities less than a few months ago) doesn't mean this is a good precedent.  Those of you cheerleading it aren't thinking long term.  They're just going from one puppet dictatorship to another that's controlled by a U.S. funded military.

They just stopped a dictator from consolidating power and removed him from office, most likely with our approval and possibly with our covert aid.

I fail to see how this translates into a puppet dictatorship.


You'll see this is a lot more complicated than the easy narrative you're trying to digest.  This is not good.  And you people are forgetting when the people took to the streets to protest military abuse prior to the elections.  This is not the road to freedom.


Open and free protest, freedom of speech and the freedom to peaceably assemble...that isn't the road to freedom?

Demanding a 'do-over' when their President loses his mind and tries for President-for-life nonsense?  That's not the road to freedom?

I suggest that people wait for something bad to happen 'before' they get all gloom and doom.

I'm actually remarkably impressed with how the Egyptian military is showing restraint and resolve and dedication to their people.
 
2013-07-05 11:05:20 AM
If major U.S. news outlets are against Egypt's revolution, then the revolution is probably a good thing.  If the U.S. government is against any revolution, that revolution is probably a good thing.
 
2013-07-05 11:05:31 AM
"Had the armed forces not intervened, democracy probably would have led to the defeat within months of the Muslim Brotherhood in legislative elections. "

Maybe, but most likely not. There is little doubt the Muslim Brotherhood was attempting to establish a religious dictatorship, and people intent on seizing and keeping power often find ways to ensure that elections go their way. The bigger problem is, why do Arab countries consistently go theocratic when given the opportunity to be a democracy? The result of the very first vote is for the people to disenfranchise themselves and put the country in the hands of religious fanatics. It happened in Algeria, it happened in Egypt, it happened in Gaza,it's happening in Libya and Tunisia right now. Frankly if a national party called the Christian Brotherhood consistently scored 50% or more in American elections, we'd have a very serious problem (as it is, the "Christian Brotherhood" makes up about 25% of the electorate, which is already pretty scary). It may be that Egypt will be obliged to follow the Turkish model, with secular norms enforced by a watchful military. Not a true democracy but better than the persistent kleptocracy associated with a secular dictator like Mubarak or the harsh misogynist religious rule found in Iran or Gaza.
 
2013-07-05 11:06:11 AM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Infernalist: DarnoKonrad: The only thing this does in reinforce the idea Egypt's true government is the military.  Because it happens to be popular with the people (is it really? The Muslim Brotherhood got won majorities less than a few months ago) doesn't mean this is a good precedent.  Those of you cheerleading it aren't thinking long term.  They're just going from one puppet dictatorship to another that's controlled by a U.S. funded military.

They just stopped a dictator from consolidating power and removed him from office, most likely with our approval and possibly with our covert aid.

I fail to see how this translates into a puppet dictatorship.

If your military routinely deposes the government in your country, you have a dictatorship. Relatively benevolent in this case, but there's no promise that future military leaders will be so judicious with their ability to overthrow the government on a whim.


I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.  In both cases, they removed a dictator or someone trying to be a dictator.  Should they move against someone who hasn't broken their laws, violated their Constitution and made moves to install himself as a dictator, then I reserve my right to change my mind on them.

Right now, though?  They're on the side of the angels.   Good on the Egyptian military.
 
2013-07-05 11:06:13 AM
Thank you, DaveCoyne, for not only being reasonable, but somehow also being the top comment.

/when your "fairly elected" government screws up, you don't let it slide
//you knock the farkers over and start again
 
2013-07-05 11:06:18 AM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: oldfarthenry: I have nothing intelligent to post - so here is a pic of the Bangles (cuz they used to be hawt & stuff):

Susanna Hoffs... Oh man...


www.aceshowbiz.com
STILL worth a military coup or two.
 
2013-07-05 11:07:10 AM

mediablitz: illegal.tender: You had 20+ million people on the streets wanting him out.

Sounds pretty democratic to me.

People seem to forget that the military "stepped in" the last time around as well. Then Egypt held elections. The military didn't "step in" and not leave. The elections turned out to be something Egyptians realize was a huge mistake. They rose back up, and the military stepped in again.

So yeah, I'm not really having a problem with this.


The Egyptian military has been basically independent for decades. Look up the Arab Organization for Industrialization. The military basically controls utilities in the state and (IIRC) actually run a good chunk of the farms. Their relationship to the presidency is similar to that of lords to a king: his power ultimately relies on them not turning on him.
 
2013-07-05 11:08:31 AM

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Infernalist: DarnoKonrad: The only thing this does in reinforce the idea Egypt's true government is the military.  Because it happens to be popular with the people (is it really? The Muslim Brotherhood got won majorities less than a few months ago) doesn't mean this is a good precedent.  Those of you cheerleading it aren't thinking long term.  They're just going from one puppet dictatorship to another that's controlled by a U.S. funded military.

They just stopped a dictator from consolidating power and removed him from office, most likely with our approval and possibly with our covert aid.

I fail to see how this translates into a puppet dictatorship.

If your military routinely deposes the government in your country, you have a dictatorship. Relatively benevolent in this case, but there's no promise that future military leaders will be so judicious with their ability to overthrow the government on a whim.



Indeed, if this keeps up, they're just following the Pakistani model, and I've been reading they're jailing Muslim Brotherhood members on various charges.  So even if they do hold elections in the future, they're using political suppression to shape the election -- just like Mubarak did.

I can't help but wonder if neoconservatives are behind all this.  They've always had close ties with both the military and Mubarak.  The uprising really though a monkey wrench into their plan to install Gamal Mubarak into the presidency.   If that dude shows up, we'll know exactly what's going on.
 
2013-07-05 11:08:37 AM

Infernalist: HotWingConspiracy: I'm sure all the voters that elected Morsi will just go away and not vote next time.

Many of those who voted for him did so only because he swore to respect the various minorities and promised to govern from the middle of the road.

They learned otherwise.  I don't suspect they're going to be so naive next time around.


Yeah that sure is uncommon, a democratically elected president not living up to his promises.

There will simply be another coup next time if this is the standard. Or maybe the military just decides its pointless to keep intervening and stays. How many times can they really go to this well?

They already killed a protestor today. Military coup, people being shot in the street, and everyone is saying this is an expression of freedom. I don't follow, but I don't have a dog in the fight.

 
2013-07-05 11:09:32 AM

clambam: "Had the armed forces not intervened, democracy probably would have led to the defeat within months of the Muslim Brotherhood in legislative elections. "

Maybe, but most likely not. There is little doubt the Muslim Brotherhood was attempting to establish a religious dictatorship, and people intent on seizing and keeping power often find ways to ensure that elections go their way. The bigger problem is, why do Arab countries consistently go theocratic when given the opportunity to be a democracy? The result of the very first vote is for the people to disenfranchise themselves and put the country in the hands of religious fanatics. It happened in Algeria, it happened in Egypt, it happened in Gaza,it's happening in Libya and Tunisia right now. Frankly if a national party called the Christian Brotherhood consistently scored 50% or more in American elections, we'd have a very serious problem (as it is, the "Christian Brotherhood" makes up about 25% of the electorate, which is already pretty scary). It may be that Egypt will be obliged to follow the Turkish model, with secular norms enforced by a watchful military. Not a true democracy but better than the persistent kleptocracy associated with a secular dictator like Mubarak or the harsh misogynist religious rule found in Iran or Gaza.


For the same reason that every American politician swears an oath on a Holy Bible(For the most part), and most of them are corrupt as hell.

Politicians wear religion as a cloak and a shield against people peeking too close at their activities.  Good, pious Muslims in Egypt believe instinctively that their politicians are pious good Muslims just like them.  Just like here in America, the good pious Christians believe that those loud about God and Jesus in the government are good pious Christians, too, the opposite is often true.

In short, they're naive in the ways of politics and elections and politicians, but first-hand experience tends to fix that in the long run.
 
2013-07-05 11:10:00 AM

monoski: Aarontology: How will those poor regular Egyptians survive if we don't give their government $1.3 Billion to subsidize the military?

This, don't get confused between money to buy weapons from US contractors and humanitarian aid


Do you suppose that the military will not try to get money from another source if we cut aid?  Who might have to do without in that case?
 
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