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(Courthouse News Service)   Refusing to let the police use your home as a lookout? That's a smashed open door and assault and arresting and jailing and some looting by the police while you are away   (courthousenews.com) divider line 370
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14057 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Jul 2013 at 5:03 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-04 07:53:13 PM  

Mock26: And how do you propose to prevent criminals from acquiring firearms that civilians are not allowed to possess? Do you think a strongly worded letter would work? Maybe a stern lecture with some finger wagging and brow furrowing? OR MAYBE AN ALL CAPS POST ON THE INTERNET?


The fact that it may or not be difficult to get criminals to obey the law has never been a factor when people like you push gun control, so I see no reason why criminals' obeyance of the law should be used as a way to block laws from being applied to the police.

if you weren't so single-minded, you might realize that another option to stop infringing upon the rights of non-police officers such that they're ability to buy/possess/bear arms is identical to those of the police.
 
2013-07-04 07:54:03 PM  

hardinparamedic: HindiDiscoMonster: you are forgetting one thing... a seance cannot provide legal evidence in court, so it would be the word of the defendant against.... silence.

And you've just handed them everything they need to strap you to a table and put a needle in your arm.


How?  It's the empty words of the prosecutor against the homeowner.
 
2013-07-04 07:54:53 PM  

LrdPhoenix: Actually, empirically speaking, it was a great playbook.  Hitler did manage to rebuild the German economy and manufacturing capabilities from one of the worst conditions in the history of any country in the world to the point that it could compete on a global scale, and then very, very nearly used that to conquer the world, in only just a decade or so.

It's kinda like the lowest rated football team with 0 wins getting a new coach who manages to take them to the Superbowl which they only lose by 1 point.


Except for the 48,231,700 people who just wanted to watch the game with a beer and a hot dog, yeah.  User application error in module humanity.  System rebooted.
 
2013-07-04 07:56:15 PM  

eventhelosers: OnlyM3: This is why every time a cop dies, I laugh my ass off.

Fark every last god damned one of them

That says something about you.  Fark the ones that abuse power, appreciate the ones that protect and serve.


Hey, I appreciate both of the good cops who protect and serve.  It's not their fault that the other 99.9% ruin it for the rest.

BTW, do you feel the same way about gang members?  Is it wrong to assume that all members of MS13 are bad people?
 
2013-07-04 07:58:40 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: hardinparamedic: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: "Their duties" include illegally breaking into people's homes and shooting them and their pets with pepper balls?

You do not have the right to shoot the police. Alternatively, Quinton Tarantino movies do not adequately represent real life, feet and all.

Unless that cop breaks into your house without identifying himself AND is in the act of raping or murdering you, you have no chance of beating a murder or attempted murder rap for shooting one, and he is perfectly within the law for forcing entry at that time after identifying himself and the reason for entry. All you're actually doing is ensuring either you'll rot in prison, or go down in a hail of police gunfire.

In fact, most states with a CCW/HCP law blatantly state the only way you have an affirmative defense to shooting a cop is the exact act I stated.

The fact that it is illegal or unconstitutional, at that point, obviously doesn't matter to Officer Friendly. At that point, if you're already that far into a situation, discretion would say do not resist, and demand a lawyer immediately, don't say a word.

But yeah. Shoot a cop, and see how far that gets you.

you are forgetting one thing... a seance cannot provide legal evidence in court, so it would be the word of the defendant against.... silence.


Hold that thought, they're still adjudicating a case involving this.
 
2013-07-04 08:00:51 PM  

pedrop357: Is it wrong to assume that all members of MS13 are bad people?


I think the "I solemnly swear to be f*cking all dis sh*t up, shootin' motherf*ckers stone ass cold and gettin' dat money, yo" is sort of a tip off.  The honesty would be refreshing if it weren't for the fact that they're homicidal thugs.
 
2013-07-04 08:04:57 PM  
A few years ago some local cops were responding to an auto accident where the people involved only spoke Spanish.  At that point the cops saw a Hispanic looking woman, who was not involved in the the accident,  walking down the street.  The cops  asked this woman if she spoke Spanish.  She replied that she could speak Spanish.  The cops then demand....they didn't request.....that the woman act as an interceptor for them.  The woman refused, and was promptly arrested and held in the county lock-up over the weekend.  At the time she was on her way to pick up her kids at the local elementary school.

Eventually, the charges against her were dropped.  The woman's lawyer filed a lawsuit against the PD.  It was settle for some small amount, I think less than $10K
 
2013-07-04 08:06:18 PM  
I wanted to mention that, since we're on the topic of gangs, that - for anybody who thinks that jive assed, illiterate, gun toting, misery and addiction selling, SUV driving, dope addled, hateful, gutless, ball-less, sociopathic, thieving homicidal cowards are romantic or respectable - that those people are the stupidest, most gullible, piss ignorant no self esteem having boulder brained motherf*ckers on earth.  Thanks.
 
2013-07-04 08:09:24 PM  

bunner: jive assed, illiterate, gun toting, misery and addiction selling, SUV driving, dope addled, hateful, gutless, ball-less, sociopathic, thieving homicidal cowards


...but enough about the police...
 
2013-07-04 08:10:37 PM  
 

LrdPhoenix: bunner: HempHead: AngryDragon: Dear American Government,

THIS IS NOT A PLAYBOOK.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 200x310]

Actually it is, Hitler laid out his complete strategy and followed it.

OK, so empirically speaking, it wasn't a good playbook?

Actually, empirically speaking, it was a great playbook.  Hitler did manage to rebuild the German economy and manufacturing capabilities from one of the worst conditions in the history of any country in the world to the point that it could compete on a global scale, and then very, very nearly used that to conquer the world, in only just a decade or so.

It's kinda like the lowest rated football team with 0 wins getting a new coach who manages to take them to the Superbowl which they only lose by 1 point.



Yeah, but the losing team doesn't have it's hometown bombed to shiat and then the ruins divided for several decades and anyone that tries to cross over the dividing line gets shot at.
 
2013-07-04 08:12:43 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: If even a fraction of this story is true, this entire police department is getting their asses sued off.

If the resulting judgement is enough to raise taxes, they might even suffer some consequences, like paid vacations and such.


IF.

The whole thing doesn't make a lick of sense from a tactical standpoint--which means either the homeowner is lying his ass off OR the cops broke in to rummage around because the homeowner had some nice stuff and then they cobbled up the excuse after the fact when he actually complained about it.

I find either explanation entirely plausible. What I find entirely unlikely is the "we need to use your house as a lookout for a DV investigation." So one side or the other is full of total bullhookey.
 
2013-07-04 08:15:09 PM  

bunner: I wanted to mention that, since we're on the topic of gangs, that - for anybody who thinks that jive assed, illiterate, gun toting, misery and addiction selling, SUV driving, dope addled, hateful, gutless, ball-less, sociopathic, thieving homicidal cowards are romantic or respectable - that those people are the stupidest, most gullible, piss ignorant no self esteem having boulder brained motherf*ckers on earth.  Thanks.


Having had some dealing with some gang members, I just want to say it's a surprise they have enough brain cells to figure out how to tie their shoes.  We already know they don't have enough sense to pull up their pants.
 
2013-07-04 08:16:54 PM  

eventhelosers: You know some criminals are trying to obtain nuclear weapons, I think all police departments need nuclear weapons too.


www.angryflower.com
 
2013-07-04 08:18:35 PM  

OgreMagi: Having had some dealing with some gang members, I just want to say it's a surprise they have enough brain cells to figure out how to tie their shoes.


Nah, man.  Just boost some dope Nike's and have your b*tch tie them.  Then beat her ass for dissin' you.
 
2013-07-04 08:19:03 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Marcus Aurelius: If even a fraction of this story is true, this entire police department is getting their asses sued off.

If the resulting judgement is enough to raise taxes, they might even suffer some consequences, like paid vacations and such.

IF.

The whole thing doesn't make a lick of sense from a tactical standpoint--which means either the homeowner is lying his ass off OR the cops broke in to rummage around because the homeowner had some nice stuff and then they cobbled up the excuse after the fact when he actually complained about it.

I find either explanation entirely plausible. What I find entirely unlikely is the "we need to use your house as a lookout for a DV investigation." So one side or the other is full of total bullhookey.


If it were two homeowners having a pissing match, I'd say, "who the fark knows?"  But with one side being the police, I'm going to have to assume the police are the lying sacks o'shiat.  Too many instances of police misconduct going on, too many cases of the police thinking they can do whatever the fark they want, to whomever they want, and there will be no consequences.  They lost any benefit of the doubt a long time ago.
 
2013-07-04 08:26:01 PM  

bunner: pedrop357: Is it wrong to assume that all members of MS13 are bad people?

I think the "I solemnly swear to be f*cking all dis sh*t up, shootin' motherf*ckers stone ass cold and gettin' dat money, yo" is sort of a tip off.  The honesty would be refreshing if it weren't for the fact that they're homicidal thugs.


On that note I'll enter this conjecture:  Some kids join up to stay alive.  Maybe instead of spending money on military grade equipment for Mock26's what ifs, we spent it to help them find a better way, they would choose the better way.
 
2013-07-04 08:26:14 PM  
Just a weird idea on how the cops who go beyond the bounds could be kept in check; require every cop to carry liability insurance which is paid for by the individual cops. When the idiot cops go all Judge Dredd and get sued for it, their rates will go up and if they are really big idiots, they might not be able to afford to be a cop anymore.

The cops in this situation need jail time as they went way, way too far.
 
2013-07-04 08:28:59 PM  

Fissile: they didn't request.....that the woman act as an interceptor for them.


Damn auto correct!
 
2013-07-04 08:29:14 PM  

eventhelosers: what ifs, we spent it to help them find a better way, they would choose the better way.


Interesting conjecture indeed.  So far the excursions into testing that hypothesis have been less than fruitful.  And as far as "don't hate the playa, hate the game"- No players, no game.
 
2013-07-04 08:30:46 PM  

prjindigo: TopoGigo: hardinparamedic: OgreMagi: They violated both the 3rd

No, they did not. There is NO Third Amendment Violation here, as the police are NOT considered under constitutional jurisprudence as members of the United States Military OR a State National Guard or Militia under the command of a Federal military commander.

Instead, it's a slam dunk for a fourth, and a fifth amendment violation of their rights.

Any judge who holds an original intent doctrine would say this violates the third. In fact, I'd guess the SCOUS would rule 6-3 against, depending on Scalia's mood.

No, SCOTUS would vote 9-0 on this one.  No warrant = no access, no exceptions.  SCOTUS has already said that no-knock-no-warrant entry of homes is a form of assisted suicide and homeowners cannot be prosecuted for defending their property.
If you're in an apartment you're screwed tho.


I meant that SCOTUS would rule 6-3 against a violation of the third only. The other merits, if TFA is accurate, are slam dunk. While the plain language of the third doesn't apply to this case, the original intent certainly does.
 
2013-07-04 08:32:37 PM  
What...what the hell kind of domestic dispute was this?

And, c'mon cops, really? What the shiat?
 
2013-07-04 08:35:21 PM  

Honest Bender: This is why we're supposed to have the right to defend ourselves with lethal force.  Good luck surviving such an encounter, though.


If it comes to a gunfight with the cops you will not win. 0% chance of winning. Which really just means that if you find yourself in said shootout your only option is to go for the high score before they get you.
 
2013-07-04 08:38:17 PM  

prjindigo: If you're in an apartment you're screwed tho.


Why would being in an apartment be different?  An apartment is still considered a private home for all intents and purposes.  The police still require an warrant to enter and search.  The apartment complex owner can't even override that.
 
2013-07-04 08:43:26 PM  
 
2013-07-04 08:50:52 PM  
i1172.photobucket.com
 
2013-07-04 08:57:21 PM  
What's wrong with people.

Ban police unions, institute licenses for cops that they must renew on a yearly basis by proving knowledge of law, institute REAL civilian review boards.

Problem solved.

Cops are not your friends, they are reactive and are trained in how to trick you.  This is not Russia or China and if you approve of gestapo tactics by thugs with a badge, you need to move to Communist China immediately and write us after a year of living there.

That's where we're headed.  Disgusting pigs.
 
2013-07-04 08:59:35 PM  
Normally I'd take the side against the pigs on any story but this one is as over the top as a 10 year old kid telling a lie about how mutant space Marines broke into the house and that's why the lamp is broken.  It's too much to possibly be true.
 
2013-07-04 09:00:13 PM  

destardi: This is not Russia or China and if you approve of gestapo tactics by thugs with a badge, you need to move to Communist China immediately and write us after a year of living there.


Well, yeah, but on the upside, we could visit our old jobs and money.
 
2013-07-04 09:04:18 PM  

Bravo Two: The actual complaint:

http://randazza.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/mitchell-v-hpd-complaint .p df


Thank you.
 
2013-07-04 09:10:03 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: Normally I'd take the side against the pigs on any story but this one is as over the top as a 10 year old kid telling a lie about how mutant space Marines broke into the house and that's why the lamp is broken.  It's too much to possibly be true.


At one time people would have thought the very idea of the police randomly stopping people on the street and frisking without cause as too far fetched to be believed.

That's the problem.  The police HAVE gone over the top.  This is how a "slippery slope" works in reality.  We're about halfway down that slope.  Do we ride it out or try to find some brakes on this farking thing?
 
2013-07-04 09:12:00 PM  

OgreMagi: Smeggy Smurf: Normally I'd take the side against the pigs on any story but this one is as over the top as a 10 year old kid telling a lie about how mutant space Marines broke into the house and that's why the lamp is broken.  It's too much to possibly be true.

At one time people would have thought the very idea of the police randomly stopping people on the street and frisking without cause as too far fetched to be believed.

That's the problem.  The police HAVE gone over the top.  This is how a "slippery slope" works in reality.  We're about halfway down that slope.  Do we ride it out or try to find some brakes on this farking thing?


I have no doubt that at least half of the story is true.  But all of it?  That's even more farked up than the buddy pig movies come up with.
 
2013-07-04 09:15:29 PM  

teenage mutant ninja rapist: Honest Bender: This is why we're supposed to have the right to defend ourselves with lethal force.  Good luck surviving such an encounter, though.

If it comes to a gunfight with the cops you will not win. 0% chance of winning. Which really just means that if you find yourself in said shootout your only option is to go for the high score before they get you.


This. The penalties are the same whether it's 1, 1000, or 1000000.

You have a 99.99% chance of dying due to it, whether you die in the shootout, are executed at the scene, are suicided in jail, are sentenced to death or spend the rest of your life in prison.

the upside is that you take a bunch of scumbag cops with you and send a message that thr police can listen to and stop doing that shiat, OR act even worse in which case hopefully your acts encourage/inspire others to do what you did. thus restarting the cycle.

The police can stop what will be a huge backlash against their profession at any time by just acting with a bit more restraint as well as accepting that they aren't the only people in the world.
 
2013-07-04 09:15:54 PM  

OgreMagi: This is how a "slippery slope" works in reality.


You have just summarized the state the union, as it were, for the last 35 years.  You have rendered the ponderous addresses issued from their respective administrations moot.
 
2013-07-04 09:19:16 PM  

hardinparamedic: OregonVet: You do realize Military Police is a modern concept, don't you?

That was my point. Sorry I did not communicate it as well as I intended.

Civilian Police are NOT Military Police. They are not members of the Military, nor are they members of the State National Guard.

bunner: Aren't these the same motherf*ckers who aren't legally obliged to intervene in activities harmful to citizens or halt criminal activity?

You're referring to DC V. Heller, right, with no idea what the definition of "Special Relationship" means in that case, or the fact that it was not the SCOTUS?


Except when they pint out farking constantly that they are not 'civilians' like the unwashed masses of those of us who don't wear badges, that is.

They're not 'civilians' then.
 
2013-07-04 09:20:35 PM  

bunner: OgreMagi: This is how a "slippery slope" works in reality.

You have just summarized the state the union, as it were, for the last 35 years.  You have rendered the ponderous addresses issued from their respective administrations moot.


bunner, just for the record; sometimes you make me lol, sometimes you piss me the fark off, sometimes you annoy the me, sometimes you make me think, and sometimes it's a combination. So thanks for being a type of weird that I hate and enjoy.

/no snark intended
 
2013-07-04 09:21:07 PM  
oh, can we please hear all about how it's ok to let cops set up random checkpoints, monitor our phone, email and cam conversations and seize our assets by forfeiture etc and so on from the goddam police state apologists a little bit more?
 
2013-07-04 09:24:41 PM  

bunner: OgreMagi: This is how a "slippery slope" works in reality.

You have just summarized the state the union, as it were, for the last 35 years.  You have rendered the ponderous addresses issued from their respective administrations moot.


Long ago, when I said, "I don't think I like where this is going", people said I was paranoid.
 
2013-07-04 09:27:01 PM  

megarian: bunner: OgreMagi: This is how a "slippery slope" works in reality.

You have just summarized the state the union, as it were, for the last 35 years.  You have rendered the ponderous addresses issued from their respective administrations moot.

bunner, just for the record; sometimes you make me lol, sometimes you piss me the fark off, sometimes you annoy the me, sometimes you make me think, and sometimes it's a combination. So thanks for being a type of weird that I hate and enjoy.

/no snark intended


I am in the habit of simply saying what I mean and trying to do so in an engaging manner.  And, to quote Chaim Witz, "If everybody loves you, you're probably an idiot".
 
2013-07-04 09:32:28 PM  

hardinparamedic: OgreMagi: How many similar incidents of this nature have occurred since then?

West Memphis in 2010 comes to mind.

Weber, NY in 2012.


A better question would be how many deaths/injuries could the militarization of police prevented in shootouts like this vs. how many deaths/injuries have been caused by military style SWAT raids.
 
2013-07-04 09:37:04 PM  

OgreMagi: bunner: OgreMagi: This is how a "slippery slope" works in reality.

You have just summarized the state the union, as it were, for the last 35 years.  You have rendered the ponderous addresses issued from their respective administrations moot.

Long ago, when I said, "I don't think I like where this is going", people said I was paranoid.


That means "If think there's a problem that isn't affecting me or I can't agree exists, you must be a loon".  Worked for the USSR for  years.  Most people can't be arsed enough to step back three feet and look at the whole forest.  They sort of count on this  phenomenon.
 
2013-07-04 09:42:05 PM  

hardinparamedic: eventhelosers: I like how they name the units "rescue 2".

Riiiight.

First - those vehicles are used for rescue in active shooter situations. They allow tactical teams to deliver care safely to victims that otherwise would set and bleed until the shooter was neutralized. Second - they're not patrol vehicles. They don't rumble down the streets all the time. They're basically kept locked up until needed.


I respectfully beg to differ. When I lived in Tucson ('99-'01), the TPD would roll their M113 APC down the street I lived on, a main artery, by the way, every Saturday morning. Early. Waking me up from my peaceful slumber.

Why? Who knows. I have my reasons. I think it was to 'flex', and as Mr. Hicks puts it, "...so you know that state power will win and we'll bust your house down and we'll f*ckin' bust you anytime we want...".

As evidenced in the article we are commenting on.
 
2013-07-04 09:48:22 PM  

Rincewind53: Jesus farking Christ.

They're right, that is a Third Amendment violation. Do you know how rare that is?




fark you. These are heroes, deserving our respect.
 
2013-07-04 09:51:04 PM  

megarian: So thanks for being a type of weird that I hate and enjoy.


Are you related to my ex wife?   :  )
 
2013-07-04 09:56:32 PM  

hardinparamedic: License them at the state level, like every other regulated profession. Take the departments out of this, and appoint a board to oversee those licensed by the state.


You mean like the  POST certification they have in Nevada where this occurred?

These programs are run by Officers to certify Officers, and they don't see anything wrong with the behavior described in this article.
 
2013-07-04 09:57:47 PM  
This is a case where the public needs to stand up together and correct this kind of injustice.
And that is why Homeland Security is stock piling bullets.

There is a war going on in America, and it's against just about all of us.
 
2013-07-04 10:01:05 PM  

bunner: megarian: So thanks for being a type of weird that I hate and enjoy.

Are you related to my ex wife?   :  )


I...um...I hope not because I might face jail-time.

Oh. OH.

I mean, "who?"
 
2013-07-04 10:05:24 PM  
I'm surprised the cops got this excited about a domestic violence call.  Wonder if the victim has a relative on the police force.
 
2013-07-04 10:06:56 PM  

Stoker: This is a case where the public needs to stand up together and correct this kind of injustice.
And that is why Homeland Security is stock piling bullets.

There is a war going on in America, and it's against just about all of us.


The war is being packaged and sold to us as something we need to wage against each other.  If you can create a social zeitgeist wherein people are willing to believe the idea that the cause of their woes and their fears and the reason they  don't have a pot to piss in is the fault of the other poor sonofab*tch up yonder road who is hiding under his bed, too, without a  pot to piss in, you can keep society fragmented and mistrustful and not focused on your shenanigans.  Everything since Sep. 2001 has been straight out of Goebbels and Khrushchev's playbooks.  All of it.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-07-04 10:08:08 PM  

megarian: bunner: megarian: So thanks for being a type of weird that I hate and enjoy.

Are you related to my ex wife?   :  )

I...um...I hope not because I might face jail-time.

Oh. OH.

I mean, "who?"


Not sure what the first part means but she's a very nice girl and I got nothing bad to say about her.
 
2013-07-04 10:09:38 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: hardinparamedic: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: "Their duties" include illegally breaking into people's homes and shooting them and their pets with pepper balls?

You do not have the right to shoot the police. Alternatively, Quinton Tarantino movies do not adequately represent real life, feet and all.

Unless that cop breaks into your house without identifying himself AND is in the act of raping or murdering you, you have no chance of beating a murder or attempted murder rap for shooting one, and he is perfectly within the law for forcing entry at that time after identifying himself and the reason for entry. All you're actually doing is ensuring either you'll rot in prison, or go down in a hail of police gunfire.

In fact, most states with a CCW/HCP law blatantly state the only way you have an affirmative defense to shooting a cop is the exact act I stated.

The fact that it is illegal or unconstitutional, at that point, obviously doesn't matter to Officer Friendly. At that point, if you're already that far into a situation, discretion would say do not resist, and demand a lawyer immediately, don't say a word.

But yeah. Shoot a cop, and see how far that gets you.

you are forgetting one thing... a seance cannot provide legal evidence in court, so it would be the word of the defendant against.... silence.


The cop would be painted the hero while you, the lowly scum.
 
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