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(The Big Lead)   If you are on base and the batter hits a based loaded, walk-off single in the bottom of the 9th, be very, very careful you don't celebrate too early and forget to touch second base   (thebiglead.com) divider line 45
    More: PSA, second bases, first base, hitter, Lansing  
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1829 clicks; posted to Sports » on 03 Jul 2013 at 12:08 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-07-03 12:14:18 PM  
What a maroon... No question about it, the guy went halfway and turned around. Didn't even need a conference of the officials, really...
 
2013-07-03 12:17:33 PM  

Mikey1969: What a maroon Merkle... No question about it, the guy went halfway and turned around. Didn't even need a conference of the officials, really...


FTFY
 
2013-07-03 12:18:25 PM  
Why didn't they edit out the extraneous bullshiat at the beginning?
 
2013-07-03 12:22:08 PM  
1:13 for the relevant play.
 
2013-07-03 12:33:02 PM  

Mikey1969: What a maroon... No question about it, the guy went halfway and turned around. Didn't even need a conference of the officials, really...


From the headline, I was thinking it was a missed bag or something but this?  I mean, you do know what a forceout is, right?

Why would there possibly be a conference over this?  It was a clear force-out at 2nd.
 
2013-07-03 12:44:55 PM  

meanmutton: Mikey1969: What a maroon... No question about it, the guy went halfway and turned around. Didn't even need a conference of the officials, really...

From the headline, I was thinking it was a missed bag or something but this?  I mean, you do know what a forceout is, right?

Why would there possibly be a conference over this?  It was a clear force-out at 2nd.


Based on the celebration, the runner from 1st might have been passed by the guy who got the hit before the center fielder ran the ball in to get the force.  I'm not sure how that might factor in.
 
2013-07-03 12:44:57 PM  

meanmutton: Why would there possibly be a conference over this? It was a clear force-out at 2nd.


I can't watch the video at work, but did the defense actually throw the ball to 2nd and touch the bag? I can imagine there being a conference only in the case where that didn't happen and the runner from first base is called out for "abandoning his effort to touch the next base". I don't know how that would work in terms of whether or not the run would score since that wouldn't be considered a force-out, but if he only went halfway before turning around, I can't imagine it's very likely that the runner from 3rd had crossed the plate yet.
 
2013-07-03 12:45:00 PM  
This is little league bad.

If it were a home run or something, I'd understand kind of forgetting what you have to do.  But it's a live ball.  Run to 2nd.
 
2013-07-03 12:55:59 PM  
Meh, low A ball.  About the same skill set as a Tball team really.
 
2013-07-03 12:56:03 PM  

exick: meanmutton: Why would there possibly be a conference over this? It was a clear force-out at 2nd.

I can't watch the video at work, but did the defense actually throw the ball to 2nd and touch the bag? I can imagine there being a conference only in the case where that didn't happen and the runner from first base is called out for "abandoning his effort to touch the next base". I don't know how that would work in terms of whether or not the run would score since that wouldn't be considered a force-out, but if he only went halfway before turning around, I can't imagine it's very likely that the runner from 3rd had crossed the plate yet.


Upon reviewing the official (MLB) rules (specifically 7.08), it appears the runner going to 2nd could be called out as soon as he peeled off from running towards 2nd, at the discretion of the umpires.

However, if that didn't get called, if the batter rounded 1st and passed the runner, he should be called out and the force removed.  I'm not sure if passing a runner in that fashion would negate a run that already crossed the plate by that time.
 
2013-07-03 12:56:38 PM  

exick: meanmutton: Why would there possibly be a conference over this? It was a clear force-out at 2nd.

I can't watch the video at work, but did the defense actually throw the ball to 2nd and touch the bag? I can imagine there being a conference only in the case where that didn't happen and the runner from first base is called out for "abandoning his effort to touch the next base". I don't know how that would work in terms of whether or not the run would score since that wouldn't be considered a force-out, but if he only went halfway before turning around, I can't imagine it's very likely that the runner from 3rd had crossed the plate yet.


Bases loaded.  Ball is hit into right-center.  Runner from 3rd scores easily, runner from 2nd scores.  Runner on 1st takes two steps towards 2nd, turns back and runs over to give a hug to the batter after he rounds 1st.  The center fielder scoops the ball up, throws it to the 2B who is standing on the bag, ball in hand, waving his hands in the air.  Easy, obvious force-out at 2nd, end of inning.
 
2013-07-03 12:57:25 PM  

wxboy: Based on the celebration, the runner from 1st might have been passed by the guy who got the hit before the center fielder ran the ball in to get the force. I'm not sure how that might factor in.


by rule, in a dead ball situation (meaning, had the winning run touched plate if and only if that run occurs on teh bottom of the inning and puts the scoring team ahead -- meaning the pitching team won't get another at-bat -- then if a baserunner passes another runner, in a dead ball situation, then it is not deemed running out of order which is an automatic out provided that the pitching team appeals, which is what happened here.  But, if the runner deemed passed never touched the bag, then the runner deemed as passing is out if he also fails to touch the bag unless the passed runner touches the bag prior to being passed and if the passing runner touches the bag afterwards.  In a live ball situation, then the passing runner is deemed out whether or not there is an appeal or if the passed runner touches back unless the base in question is home plate in which case catcher's interference could be in play.
 
2013-07-03 01:00:37 PM  
Fred Merkle not impressed.
 
2013-07-03 01:01:28 PM  
David Murphy out at 2nd on a Jurickson Profar walk was a better learning experience.
 
2013-07-03 01:01:45 PM  

bacongood: Mikey1969: What a maroon Merkle... No question about it, the guy went halfway and turned around. Didn't even need a conference of the officials, really...

FTFY


This is not a repeat from 1908.
 
2013-07-03 01:06:27 PM  

Hoopy Frood: bacongood: Mikey1969: What a maroon Merkle... No question about it, the guy went halfway and turned around. Didn't even need a conference of the officials, really...

FTFY

This is not a repeat from 1908.


At least Fred Merkle had an excuse. It was a new rule, wasn't being enforced, and he was the youngest player in the National League, and a rookie.
 
2013-07-03 01:24:55 PM  

Saiga410: Meh, low A ball.  About the same skill set as a Tball team really.


Low A ball players are in the top 0.001% of all players in the world.
 
2013-07-03 01:59:20 PM  

exick: meanmutton: Why would there possibly be a conference over this? It was a clear force-out at 2nd.

I can't watch the video at work, but did the defense actually throw the ball to 2nd and touch the bag? I can imagine there being a conference only in the case where that didn't happen and the runner from first base is called out for "abandoning his effort to touch the next base". I don't know how that would work in terms of whether or not the run would score since that wouldn't be considered a force-out, but if he only went halfway before turning around, I can't imagine it's very likely that the runner from 3rd had crossed the plate yet.


Yep.  The runner on first only made it halfway to second before he started celebrating.  The centerfielder fielded the grounder and threw it to the second baseman who stood on the bag with his hands in the air like, "Hey- WTF!"
 
2013-07-03 02:01:37 PM  

rickythepenguin: wxboy: Based on the celebration, the runner from 1st might have been passed by the guy who got the hit before the center fielder ran the ball in to get the force. I'm not sure how that might factor in.

by rule, in a dead ball situation (meaning, had the winning run touched plate if and only if that run occurs on teh bottom of the inning and puts the scoring team ahead -- meaning the pitching team won't get another at-bat -- then if a baserunner passes another runner, in a dead ball situation, then it is not deemed running out of order which is an automatic out provided that the pitching team appeals, which is what happened here.  But, if the runner deemed passed never touched the bag, then the runner deemed as passing is out if he also fails to touch the bag unless the passed runner touches the bag prior to being passed and if the passing runner touches the bag afterwards.  In a live ball situation, then the passing runner is deemed out whether or not there is an appeal or if the passed runner touches back unless the base in question is home plate in which case catcher's interference could be in play.


I definitely need to remember to favorite you "Delightful poster who, from time to time, trolls the hell out of baseball rules threads"
 
2013-07-03 02:05:01 PM  

rickythepenguin: wxboy: Based on the celebration, the runner from 1st might have been passed by the guy who got the hit before the center fielder ran the ball in to get the force. I'm not sure how that might factor in.

by rule, in a dead ball situation (meaning, had the winning run touched plate if and only if that run occurs on teh bottom of the inning and puts the scoring team ahead -- meaning the pitching team won't get another at-bat -- then if a baserunner passes another runner, in a dead ball situation, then it is not deemed running out of order which is an automatic out provided that the pitching team appeals, which is what happened here.  But, if the runner deemed passed never touched the bag, then the runner deemed as passing is out if he also fails to touch the bag unless the passed runner touches the bag prior to being passed and if the passing runner touches the bag afterwards.  In a live ball situation, then the passing runner is deemed out whether or not there is an appeal or if the passed runner touches back unless the base in question is home plate in which case catcher's interference could be in play.


This wasn't an appeal; it was a run-of-the-mill force-out.  The ball got to 2nd before the baserunner.
 
2013-07-03 02:23:29 PM  
That wasn't even a single.  It was your ordinary, everyday 8-4 fielder's choice.

rickythepenguin: by rule, in a dead ball situation (meaning, had the winning run touched plate if and only if that run occurs on teh bottom of the inning and puts the scoring team ahead -- meaning the pitching team won't get another at-bat -- then if a baserunner passes another runner, in a dead ball situation, then it is not deemed running out of order which is an automatic out provided that the pitching team appeals, which is what happened here.  But, if the runner deemed passed never touched the bag, then the runner deemed as passing is out if he also fails to touch the bag unless the passed runner touches the bag prior to being passed and if the passing runner touches the bag afterwards.  In a live ball situation, then the passing runner is deemed out whether or not there is an appeal or if the passed runner touches back unless the base in question is home plate in which case catcher's interference could be in play.


And they say Americans will never be able to figure out cricket.
 
2013-07-03 02:26:06 PM  

Slow To Return: David Murphy out at 2nd on a Jurickson Profar walk was a better learning experience.


What was this situation? I am not familiar with this and I am a little curious because someone asked my a similar question the other day.
 
2013-07-03 02:38:08 PM  
Actually let me throw this question out to someone who has a few mins to look it up...

Exact same situation as the vid...bases loaded, 2 out....the batter walks to force the winning run home but the guy on 1st does the same thing. Just runs in to celebrate. What is that ruling?
 
2013-07-03 02:49:22 PM  

JohnnyCanuck: Actually let me throw this question out to someone who has a few mins to look it up...

Exact same situation as the vid...bases loaded, 2 out....the batter walks to force the winning run home but the guy on 1st does the same thing. Just runs in to celebrate. What is that ruling?


I am not an expert, but I believe Rule 7.08(a)(2) would apply:

Any runner is out when --
(a) (2) after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base;


I still don't know whether the run would count, or if it would depend on whether the runner from 3rd touched the plate before the runner from 1st peeled off.
 
2013-07-03 02:53:42 PM  

wxboy: (a) (2) after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base;


This is what I think as well. Walk or hit...I think you have to touch the next base.
 
2013-07-03 02:56:32 PM  
Just not sure if there is a special provision for walks seeing as how there would be no force out rule, per se.
 
2013-07-03 02:57:05 PM  

JohnnyCanuck: Slow To Return: David Murphy out at 2nd on a Jurickson Profar walk was a better learning experience.

What was this situation? I am not familiar with this and I am a little curious because someone asked my a similar question the other day.


3-2 pitch, Murphy takes off from first base, Profar checks his swing. Throw goes down to second and beats the runner, but since it's a walk, it doesn't matter. Except that Murphy apparently thought it was a strike 'em out, throw 'em out double play and kinda wandered around the bag, allowing Cano to apply the tag
 
2013-07-03 03:00:24 PM  

Rex_Banner: 3-2 pitch, Murphy takes off from first base, Profar checks his swing. Throw goes down to second and beats the runner, but since it's a walk, it doesn't matter. Except that Murphy apparently thought it was a strike 'em out, throw 'em out double play and kinda wandered around the bag, allowing Cano to apply the tag


I gotcha. That is definitely an out. He touched the bag to establish possession, then came off again. If he slid short (Like Willie Mays Hayes) and didn't leave the baseline before he found out it was a walk he would be fine.
 
2013-07-03 03:23:27 PM  
I also once saw a guy take a walk then do a stretching trot down to first base. He touched the bag but continued to take an extra step passed the bag for once last real good stretch. The pitcher tossed it over and the first baseman tagged him out.

Guy was a major douche too. So even a few of his own mates enjoyed the moment as he went off on a rant.
 
2013-07-03 03:46:07 PM  

JohnnyCanuck: Actually let me throw this question out to someone who has a few mins to look it up...

Exact same situation as the vid...bases loaded, 2 out....the batter walks to force the winning run home but the guy on 1st does the same thing. Just runs in to celebrate. What is that ruling?


I would guess an out.  Sounds the same as a home run.  Look at Robin Ventura and the grand slam single.  That's a little different, but same idea.
 
2013-07-03 03:47:34 PM  

Rex_Banner: JohnnyCanuck: Slow To Return: David Murphy out at 2nd on a Jurickson Profar walk was a better learning experience.

What was this situation? I am not familiar with this and I am a little curious because someone asked my a similar question the other day.

3-2 pitch, Murphy takes off from first base, Profar checks his swing. Throw goes down to second and beats the runner, but since it's a walk, it doesn't matter. Except that Murphy apparently thought it was a strike 'em out, throw 'em out double play and kinda wandered around the bag, allowing Cano to apply the tag


The Delayed Ump Call always means somebody's about to look like an ass.
 
2013-07-03 04:01:13 PM  

Dafatone: JohnnyCanuck: Actually let me throw this question out to someone who has a few mins to look it up...

Exact same situation as the vid...bases loaded, 2 out....the batter walks to force the winning run home but the guy on 1st does the same thing. Just runs in to celebrate. What is that ruling?

I would guess an out.  Sounds the same as a home run.  Look at Robin Ventura and the grand slam single.  That's a little different, but same idea.


I would think as long as the runner on 3rd crosses the plate before the 1b-2b runner leaves the base path, the run would count.  Its not a force out situation, and it occurred after the game was over.  I look at it this way- without the force of the walk, the runner advancing from home essentially made it by advancing at their own risk, just as if they had stole home without the walk.
 
2013-07-03 04:12:06 PM  

wxboy: exick: meanmutton: Why would there possibly be a conference over this? It was a clear force-out at 2nd.

I can't watch the video at work, but did the defense actually throw the ball to 2nd and touch the bag? I can imagine there being a conference only in the case where that didn't happen and the runner from first base is called out for "abandoning his effort to touch the next base". I don't know how that would work in terms of whether or not the run would score since that wouldn't be considered a force-out, but if he only went halfway before turning around, I can't imagine it's very likely that the runner from 3rd had crossed the plate yet.

Upon reviewing the official (MLB) rules (specifically 7.08), it appears the runner going to 2nd could be called out as soon as he peeled off from running towards 2nd, at the discretion of the umpires.

However, if that didn't get called, if the batter rounded 1st and passed the runner, he should be called out and the force removed.  I'm not sure if passing a runner in that fashion would negate a run that already crossed the plate by that time.


Wrong... as long as no play is being made on the runner, the runner can run where ever they want to, besides a dead ball area.
 
2013-07-03 04:14:52 PM  

JohnnyCanuck: Actually let me throw this question out to someone who has a few mins to look it up...

Exact same situation as the vid...bases loaded, 2 out....the batter walks to force the winning run home but the guy on 1st does the same thing. Just runs in to celebrate. What is that ruling?


Its nothing until the runner enters a dead ball area such as the dugout.
 
2013-07-03 04:16:34 PM  

unyon: Dafatone: JohnnyCanuck: Actually let me throw this question out to someone who has a few mins to look it up...

Exact same situation as the vid...bases loaded, 2 out....the batter walks to force the winning run home but the guy on 1st does the same thing. Just runs in to celebrate. What is that ruling?

I would guess an out.  Sounds the same as a home run.  Look at Robin Ventura and the grand slam single.  That's a little different, but same idea.

I would think as long as the runner on 3rd crosses the plate before the 1b-2b runner leaves the base path, the run would count.  Its not a force out situation, and it occurred after the game was over.  I look at it this way- without the force of the walk, the runner advancing from home essentially made it by advancing at their own risk, just as if they had stole home without the walk.


You have to legally occupy the base.
 
2013-07-03 05:06:06 PM  

unyon: Dafatone: JohnnyCanuck: Actually let me throw this question out to someone who has a few mins to look it up...

Exact same situation as the vid...bases loaded, 2 out....the batter walks to force the winning run home but the guy on 1st does the same thing. Just runs in to celebrate. What is that ruling?

I would guess an out.  Sounds the same as a home run.  Look at Robin Ventura and the grand slam single.  That's a little different, but same idea.

I would think as long as the runner on 3rd crosses the plate before the 1b-2b runner leaves the base path, the run would count.  Its not a force out situation, and it occurred after the game was over.  I look at it this way- without the force of the walk, the runner advancing from home essentially made it by advancing at their own risk, just as if they had stole home without the walk.


It is a force situation. The runner must occupy second to free first for the hitter. And under the basic rules the runner will be out and no runs count.

They key point to always remember is that a walk does not give you the next base. It gives you the right to occupy it unopposed, if you choose not to and leave the field or miss the base you are liable to be called out. Just like a home run. It does not change the nature of the game in any other way.

Now, I believe there is a specific exception to these rules in some cases for walks. But I forget the details.
 
2013-07-03 05:14:51 PM  
Cripes, I thought this was going to be a kids league where their helmets are bigger than their bodies.  Then I re-read the title.  Minor League.....as in professional sports players who are theoretically in line to play in the Major League.  Holy crap I can't believe that.  I run out game ending base hits in kickball and I never even played organized baseball.
 
2013-07-03 05:34:32 PM  
Came to see if anyone remembered Fred Merkle....and not disappointed
 
2013-07-03 05:58:14 PM  

cefm: Cripes, I thought this was going to be a kids league where their helmets are bigger than their bodies.  Then I re-read the title.  Minor League.....as in professional sports players who are theoretically in line to play in the Major League.  Holy crap I can't believe that.  I run out game ending base hits in kickball and I never even played organized baseball.


People make brain dead moves all the time in the pros. It isn't that rare to see a player forget the number of outs and their toss a live ball to a fan or run out an easy fly ball with less than 2 out. Not to mention a multitude of other stupid moves. Also note that with only 1 out, this would have been irrelevant.

It happens at every level. And the vast majority of A ball players won't make it anywhere close to the majors. They probably aren't that much better than your local league players, but younger and with room for growth. And with far less experience.

Still a bone headed move, but not something unbelievably bad.
 
2013-07-03 06:47:47 PM  

zeppo: Came to see if anyone remembered Fred Merkle....and not disappointed


However, there was not one mention of the word boner, such as:

Hoopy Frood: bacongood: Mikey1969: What a maroon Boner... No question about it, the guy went halfway and turned around. Didn't even need a conference of the officials, really...

FTFY

This is not a repeat from 1908.


FTFTFY
 
2013-07-03 06:52:33 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Hoopy Frood: bacongood: Mikey1969: What a maroon Merkle... No question about it, the guy went halfway and turned around. Didn't even need a conference of the officials, really...

FTFY

This is not a repeat from 1908.

At least Fred Merkle had an excuse. It was a new rule, wasn't being enforced, and he was the youngest player in the National League, and a rookie.


Evers had protested earlier in the season over the same play, and the league president's response was something along the lines of, "well, next time we'll enforce it." He'd told umpires to look for him to make the same play. You're not going to tell the busher on first to expect it.
 
2013-07-03 07:05:17 PM  

Hoopy Frood: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Hoopy Frood: bacongood: Mikey1969: What a maroon Merkle... No question about it, the guy went halfway and turned around. Didn't even need a conference of the officials, really...

FTFY

This is not a repeat from 1908.

At least Fred Merkle had an excuse. It was a new rule, wasn't being enforced, and he was the youngest player in the National League, and a rookie.

Evers had protested earlier in the season over the same play, and the league president's response was something along the lines of, "well, next time we'll enforce it." He'd told umpires to look for him to make the same play. You're not going to tell the busher on first to expect it.


Also, the umpires didn't even know if the ball used to call Merkle out was really the game ball. There was some question of whether it had been tossed into the crowd. Selig will make a decision on it any day now.
 
2013-07-03 08:01:02 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Hoopy Frood: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Hoopy Frood: bacongood: Mikey1969: What a maroon Merkle... No question about it, the guy went halfway and turned around. Didn't even need a conference of the officials, really...

FTFY

This is not a repeat from 1908.

At least Fred Merkle had an excuse. It was a new rule, wasn't being enforced, and he was the youngest player in the National League, and a rookie.

Evers had protested earlier in the season over the same play, and the league president's response was something along the lines of, "well, next time we'll enforce it." He'd told umpires to look for him to make the same play. You're not going to tell the busher on first to expect it.

Also, the umpires didn't even know if the ball used to call Merkle out was really the game ball. There was some question of whether it had been tossed into the crowd. Selig will make a decision on it any day now.


Of course the claim was that the ball was thrown into the stands by a Cubs pitcher. So interference causes the same end result, Merkle out at second on a force play annd the run scores (which the umpire said was his official call some years later).

By the rule book there is no question that the call was right. The questions I can justify are regarding the intent of the rule and and lack of previous enforcement.
 
2013-07-03 08:20:11 PM  

dywed88: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Hoopy Frood: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Hoopy Frood: bacongood: Mikey1969: What a maroon Merkle... No question about it, the guy went halfway and turned around. Didn't even need a conference of the officials, really...

FTFY

This is not a repeat from 1908.

At least Fred Merkle had an excuse. It was a new rule, wasn't being enforced, and he was the youngest player in the National League, and a rookie.

Evers had protested earlier in the season over the same play, and the league president's response was something along the lines of, "well, next time we'll enforce it." He'd told umpires to look for him to make the same play. You're not going to tell the busher on first to expect it.

Also, the umpires didn't even know if the ball used to call Merkle out was really the game ball. There was some question of whether it had been tossed into the crowd. Selig will make a decision on it any day now.

Of course the claim was that the ball was thrown into the stands by a Cubs pitcher. So interference causes the same end result, Merkle out at second on a force play annd the run scores (which the umpire said was his official call some years later).

By the rule book there is no question that the call was right. The questions I can justify are regarding the intent of the rule and and lack of previous enforcement.


Good points, all. But you know who were the real boneheads? The first-base coach, Christy Mathewson and the manager, John McGraw, both of whom should have alerted Merkle.  Also, the base umpire, Blind Bob Emslie, who told Merkle that the game was over.

Bill Klem called it "The rottenest decision in the history of baseball".
 
2013-07-04 08:51:17 PM  
How many times are we going to see this sort of thing? Folks, if you believe you've won a sporting event, ensure that you've completed the action necessary to secure that win prior to celebrating said win.

It's right up there with "don't stand there monologuing - kill him" in terms of basic rules.
 
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